New dovetail needs to be bought?

[sander kamp]

I am one of the people who have a dovetail and a bottom plate that don't fit. My dovetail is a machined piece and the bottom plate a cast one. They seem to fit alright but put the camera on a tripod and there is so much play that when I grab the top handle I can move it sideways about one centimeter. It just doesn't feel safe.

Rather than complaining in the forum I emailed RED and asked if I could send it back. I got an answer that RED is aware of the problem and working on a new dovetail. I asked if I could exchange my dovetail for the new one but got an email today that it needs to bought rather than replaced.

I am very disappointed in this policy of RED. I am one of the early believers and am now being punished by having to buy a replacement for accessory that that I bought but doesn't do what is it is supposed to - place the camera firmly on a tripod. And what happened to the one year warranty?

[CJ Roy]

I swear my dovetail was rock solid at first, but just recently I started getting play in it. We found that you can kind of bend the baseplate just slightly, by hand, to get it more solid.

Not a permanent solution by any means, maybe a temporary one.

[lisa hayse]

If it was just purchased it should be retunable Right?
what does the policy hold? What is the warranty for?

Any piece of gear that doesn't work properly often happens in this business
but customers should not have to pay for that mistake.
The seller should always do what they can to keep customers happy.
That is how business grows and that's what keeps customers coming back.


Lisa

[Paolo Tinari]

I swear my dovetail was rock solid at first, but just recently I started getting play in it. We found that you can kind of bend the baseplate just slightly, by hand, to get it more solid.

Not a permanent solution by any means, maybe a temporary one.

same phenomenon here. and she just started wobbling on a real set, maybe scared of rude technicians.
A little embarassing, but, yah, someone here said that is supposed be used for shoulder only so some wobblings are ok...

I'm still waiting for my eternally backordered Arri 19 btw, the solution

[Finner]

Pay a little more and get accessories of higher quality that last for life.

elementtechnica.com

[Matt Uhry]

-> What Finner said. The element baseplate and dovetail are solid and industry standard. Highly recommended.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Ivan G]

Can we purchase element technica products through RED's website? Because I just paid with a check and need to get this nightmare resolved before I kick myself for not doing so. Yes, I'm very excited about receiving my RED but not with all negative feedback on accessories.

[Brent@RED]

I know Jarred and I have posted in other threads but I will address again.

First, the DOVETAIL was never designed to be a rock-solid tripod mounting option. That is why we offer the CHEESE PLATE. The DOVETAIL was to be used primarily for handheld work - but does have mounting holes should you want to put it up on sticks, etc.

Second, like we have also said, we have listened to your feedback. While we (RED) thought it was very clear the usage scenarios for the DOVETAIL, you have stated that the expectation is for more solid mounting with the DOVETAIL and without using the CHEESE PLATE. And, like we have said, we are looking into options to meet that end. There are no guarantees other than we are looking at options based on your feedback.

Thanks, BC

[Kokinos Fotographos]

So Brent, any ET guys, what us the best mount solution for my Sachler V20 head and chroziel 16x9 matte box and rod system? I'm not home to check what rod system I have. Money is no object for structure and support of my soon to be purchased Red. I want to be able to go handheld easily too.

[Brent@RED]

Speaking from the RED side, I know a lot of people will have two BOTTOM PLATES - one with CHEESE PLATE and one with DOVETAIL so it is only a matter of changing 4x hex bolts to swap. Usually people us 24" RODS on handheld config and leave 18" RODS on the tripod one. Then just a matter of swapping UNIVERSAL MOUNTS of any mounted gear on bottom RODS. Just a solution we see frequently....

BC

[sander kamp]

I know Jarred and I have posted in other threads but I will address again.

First, the DOVETAIL was never designed to be a rock-solid tripod mounting option. That is why we offer the CHEESE PLATE. The DOVETAIL was to be used primarily for handheld work - but does have mounting holes should you want to put it up on sticks, etc.

Second, like we have also said, we have listened to your feedback. While we (RED) thought it was very clear the usage scenarios for the DOVETAIL, you have stated that the expectation is for more solid mounting with the DOVETAIL and without using the CHEESE PLATE. And, like we have said, we are looking into options to meet that end. There are no guarantees other than we are looking at options based on your feedback.

Thanks, BC

I may be wrong but I don't remember a message on the forum from before February where it said that the dovetail was never meant for solid mounting on a tripod and that you needed the cheese plate for that. As far as I know it is only after people started complaining that RED started saying that and changed the text on the website.

The dovetail also doesn't seem to be made primary for handheld shooting. It is far too heavy for that and the padding is too small.

When I sent a email to RED I got an answer 'This is something that we are all very aware of, and there is a retrofitted dovetail that will be available very soon, but the solution for now is the cheese plate.' Basically acknowledging that there is a problem and a solution is on its way or you can buy the cheese plate for now.

Anyway, since I am not getting the new dovetail from RED, what is going to happen when I send this one back? Do I get one that at least fits better?

[wshultz]

The Arri plates do not provide solutions for those with Sachtlers and Vintens and others, if I understand correctly. Is that right?

The base plate and dove tail not originally being meant for a solid mount is definitely a new spin I have not heard before. That fact would have influenced my buying decision.

[Corrado Silveri]

The Arri plates do not provide solutions for those with Sachtlers and Vintens and others, if I understand correctly. Is that right?

The base plate and dove tail not originally being meant for a solid mount is definitely a new spin I have not heard before. That fact would have influenced my buying decision.

I think that we all need to wait for an official statement from the guys@red.

I have two "bad" dovetail too. And four "poor-cast" side handles.

But I'm not worried.

I know that they need the time to bring some decisions about that.

At the same time, I'm already happy about their decisions, even if the response will be "nothing to do, this is the piece, no return".

I've reserved two cameras two years before the ALPHA stage.

And I'm really happy today, even with two choppy dovetail and four cast handle.

I want to give to Jim (and to the whole team) all the time and all the respect that they deserve.

[Paolo Tinari]

The Arri plates do not provide solutions for those with Sachtlers and Vintens and others, if I understand correctly. Is that right?



Then you must look at the ADT 1220 from E.T. with your Arri base plate

[Corrado Silveri]

I think that we all need to wait for an official statement from the guys@red.

I have two "bad" dovetail too. And four "poor-cast" side handles.

But I'm not worried.

I know that they need the time to bring some decisions about that.

At the same time, I'm already happy about their decisions, even if the response will be "nothing to do, this is the piece, no return".

I've reserved two cameras two years before the ALPHA stage.

And I'm really happy today, even with two choppy dovetail and four cast handle.

I want to give to Jim (and to the whole team) all the time and all the respect that they deserve.


Just to say (again, sorry...) that I'm here, watching (and grading) 4k images on my home MacPro. All the materials are arrived here on a small Lacie portable fw800 drive.

And I have to worry about a slight defect in tolerance in a dovetail? No way.

Just my 2c. Really don't want to bother o make an offense to anyone.

[James Brundige]

The Arri plates do not provide solutions for those with Sachtlers and Vintens and others, if I understand correctly. Is that right?

The base plate and dove tail not originally being meant for a solid mount is definitely a new spin I have not heard before. That fact would have influenced my buying decision.

ditto - You mean the base production pack doesn't work for putting the camera on a tripod?

What's the solution for us Sachtler owners?

Does the cheese plate hold the 19mm rod system?

[James Brundige]

Speaking from the RED side, I know a lot of people will have two BOTTOM PLATES - one with CHEESE PLATE and one with DOVETAIL so it is only a matter of changing 4x hex bolts to swap. Usually people us 24" RODS on handheld config and leave 18" RODS on the tripod one. Then just a matter of swapping UNIVERSAL MOUNTS of any mounted gear on bottom RODS. Just a solution we see frequently....

BC

That is completely unworkable for documentary production. We need to pull the camera off the sticks with a quick release and go. Life doesn't wait for 4 hex bolts and swapping the gear off the rods.

Can the cheeseplate and shoulder mount co-exist:?

[James Brundige]

I know Jarred and I have posted in other threads but I will address again.

First, the DOVETAIL was never designed to be a rock-solid tripod mounting option. That is why we offer the CHEESE PLATE. The DOVETAIL was to be used primarily for handheld work - but does have mounting holes should you want to put it up on sticks, etc.

Second, like we have also said, we have listened to your feedback. While we (RED) thought it was very clear the usage scenarios for the DOVETAIL, you have stated that the expectation is for more solid mounting with the DOVETAIL and without using the CHEESE PLATE. And, like we have said, we are looking into options to meet that end. There are no guarantees other than we are looking at options based on your feedback.

Thanks, BC

Sorry for my confusion, but with no hands-on, its hard to imagine how your system works. How do the cheeseplate and dovetail attach to the base plate?

Not trying to hound you, I just need to make some purchasing decisions within a few days. I have a production waiting for my soon-to-be-delivered camera.

[wshultz]

Then you must look at the ADT 1220 from E.T. with your Arri base plate

I don't see anything with this part number on E.T. product list.

[wshultz]

Just to say (again, sorry...) that I'm here, watching (and grading) 4k images on my home MacPro. All the materials are arrived here on a small Lacie portable fw800 drive.

And I have to worry about a slight defect in tolerance in a dovetail? No way.

Just my 2c. Really don't want to bother o make an offense to anyone.

It's all wonderful, no doubt. But have you heard the expression "but for a nail the battle was lost"?

It's no small thing to spend $1200 on a base production pack and then have it rattle on the sticks. My wonderful 4K picture can not be used if it suddenly shifts in mid-pan or tilt.

[Brent@RED]

We hear your concerns and we are discussing it. If I had more information now, I would offer it up. But until we finish our internal discussions, any comments beyond that would be premature.

BC

[wshultz]

Good to know Brent. Maybe an option could be to swap the dovetail for the cheeseplate? Just one idea.

[Alex Wengert]

I'm a a little confused. Isn't the cheese plate mounted to the top of the camera, and the dovetail and baseplate at the bottom? I don't understand what the cheese plate would do at the bottom of the camera as far as mounting it to the head. Are you supposed to remove the baseplate and dovetail, then attach the cheeseplate and then somehow attatch a hand held rig to go handheld? No Mako No Sense.

[grandpa it burns]

At a shoot, I heard someone talking about how they yanked out the soft little rubber piece from around the pin and replaced it with one made of harder rubber. Supposedly it solved the problem completely?

[Mark Andersen]

I could never get the dove tail to lock. the locking mech. just springs back at me it never has worked, I threw it in a box, and bought the chesse plate, fortunately I hate to do shoulder mount stuff. I still wonder whats up with the shoulder dovetail? am I doing something wrong? I Still love the camera though!

[wshultz]

I THINK the cheesplate slides in where the dovetail does now and bolts to the bottom frame solidly. Then I think my particular tripod wedge plate would bolt to the bottom of the cheeseplate. No wobble then.

[Paolo Tinari]

I don't see anything with this part number on E.T. product list.

You can use the (RED/Element) Arri base 15 or 19mm with any head as long as you also have an Arri dovetail (E.T. ADT-1220 for $375). It has threaded holes along the center for mounting a quick release plate for you particular head. This same dovetail will also replace the Euro Plate on the OConnor 2060/2575 but can use the quick release plate from any other head.

[Casey Green]

We hear your concerns and we are discussing it. If I had more information now, I would offer it up. But until we finish our internal discussions, any comments beyond that would be premature.

BC

Thanks for your attention to this important thread.

We feel confident that RED will figure out a fair solution.

[sander kamp]

At a shoot, I heard someone talking about how they yanked out the soft little rubber piece from around the pin and replaced it with one made of harder rubber. Supposedly it solved the problem completely?

We tried that. But then the whole thing got stuck, the pin didn't want to go down again and we had to remove the bottom plate and hammer the pin down. Not something you want to do in the middle of a production.

It is really a shame. I opened it up and it is a beautifully machined piece with all kind of springs and metal parts inside. Yet for tripod work it is no good and for shoulder held it is heavy and uncomfortable.

The problem with the cheese plate is that you can't balance the camera without removing the camera from the tripod, turning it upside down and unscrewing and re-attaching the plate.

And yes, I love my camera and support the RED company. But I don't think that means I should just forgive them for shipping accessories that don't work.

[Damien Molineaux]

Thanks for your attention to this important thread.

We feel confident that RED will figure out a fair solution.

Sorry if I'm repeating myself from one thread to the other, but there are a number of threads going on about the issues with the Red bottom plate - shoulder dovetail combo. They (the threads) have been going on for quite some tiime now, and still no solution from Red.

Red, I love you guys, and gals ! I love my camera, but this is one problem I think you should address ! Yes there are third party solutions, but you can do better.

My suggestion, ditch (as in stop producing them) the Red baseplate and shoulder dovetail. Start selling the Arri (ET) bridge plate instead. Make the production pack a little more expensive, and let people choose wether they want 15mm or 19mm !!! AND lower the price of the Arri 19mm bridge plate alone to match the price of the 15mm. AND make a new shoulder dovetail to go with the Arri bridge plates.

Cheers,
Damien

PS Let's be efficient. I'm going to retire my baseplate, my shoulder dovetail, my cheeseplate and my 19mm steel rods (anyone interested ?). Why make all these products that most people will end up replacing ?!

[Sean]

It's probably not going to satisfy us Red dovetail purchasers to only hear now that it was never meant to offer a stable tripod mounting option.

Like many, we're loving the Red camera itself. It's really quite amazing. But there's a minor design flaw in this one accessory that is causing us grief. Even if there were some kind of fix, I'd be satisfied. But I sort of feel like I have an accessory that is not usable for the purposes which, I believe, it was originally designed.

[David Mutchler]

Sean, I 2nd that!

[Jay A. Kelley]

For those of you that would like a fix... Take a good quality business card (not a paper one, a business CARD) and cut it the size of that hole on the plate. Take off the rubber thingy, punch a little hole in the card when the stud will come up. Push the card down into the hole and let the stud force it's way through (Do not cut a hole to size, let the stud come through and make it's own hole). Flatten the card into the hole, put the rubber piece back on top, and if the business card was the right thickness, the wobble will go away. Fair warning, the lever will be hard to lock into place, but it will lock, and the wobble will be gone.

Good luck to you all

[John V]

Perhaps RED should make it clear on the RED store by putting detailed descriptions of the product and uses. This would help down the road to those who buy.

[Evin Grant]

I've used the cheeseplate and it is solid as a rock, you just do not get balancing on it. However most heads that can handle a Red have a sliding top section that will probably do OK.

However the 9" Element 1030 dovetail and Arri base plate are a true joy to work with. They put a smile on my face every time I mount the camera. And with the slide room on the head I can even balance my 25-250mm Cooke MII!
http://www.4kninjas.net/pics/199+cooke25-250.jpg

[Matt Uhry]

I use the Element base plate and dovetail. It works perfectly. Just like an Arri one. It works with all the industry standard equipment. No wobbles, infinite adjustability, large range of counterbalance. Low center of gravity. Totally happy with it.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Rick Darge]

Don't know if anyone covered this but I had a similar problem with it not quite fitting.

To solve the issue, I borrowed two of the Red wingnut washers and put them on the rubber shoe of the dovetail. This gives a solid secure fit.. Simple solution..

[sander kamp]

Sure, I believe the ET accessories are great, I just don't find it an excuse for the RED dovetail not working. The one I have is absolutely useless. When mounted on a tripod, the camera is moveable in every direction - left to right and front to back.

The RED website states: 'can also be used to mount on tripods', only when you need 'extremely sturdy mounting' you are advised to buy the cheese plate.

I am still waiting for an answer what to do with my dovetail. It is clearly not working for what it is intended so why would I then have to BUY a new one?

[Marc Berger]

I follow this discussion with great interest. I think Randy gets slowly stressed with my changes in my order, but it´s becoming difficult which accesories are finally necessary to make it properly working. This discussion is, as far I can see, always about the Dovetail. I don´t have it now, so please apologize if my path is completely wrong: Would it not be a lot easier to modify the Base plate instead of the dovetail? Add some locking mechanism?
If you find this would be a solution, I would recommend to Red to contact and discuss this with RRS (Really Right Stuff). They have a lot of experience in this and are also located in California.
Please don´t take this as an insult, I´m shure Red is more then able to solve this problem finally by itself, but maybe there is somewhere else already a simple solution?!
Cheers
Marc

[Brent@RED]

sander, there is a simple reason that you have not gotten an answer - we are still discussing the situation internally. As soon as we have information, we'll let people know. We have heard people's concerns, rest assured.

BC

[Corrado Silveri]

I think that we all need to wait for an official statement from the guys@red.

I want to give to Jim (and to the whole team) all the time and all the respect that they deserve.



Just to repeat myself...

[Jarred Land]

I am still waiting for an answer what to do with my dovetail. It is clearly not working for what it is intended so why would I then have to BUY a new one?

The Shoulder Dovetail was always intended to work as a Shoulder Dovetail.

It is why we make a cheese-plate, for solid mounting... as well as the Arri Base for the traditional Arri Slider.

There are options for everyone, just not an "all in one" solution.

Remember, the Base Production pack is a heavily-discounted starter pack to get you into a hand held system (hence the handle).

All that said.... We are working on a new insert that we will give to all owners of the dovetail that will piggy back the rubber washer and make things alot tighter, but it will never be as solid as one of the other solutions.

Hope that answers everyone's questions.

[jimhare]

I know I'm an idiot, but why do you use the dovetail for tripod mounting? I thought it was mostly a formed shoulder rest?

Does it slide and allow for tripod balancing or something?

I just want to properly understand the issue before deciding whether it's a problem for me!

Thanks!

[grandpa it burns]

Wow, people are really getting worked up about this...

Jay,
I have seen your method used on a shoulder pad dovetail and it worked great! I don't understand why people don't take the 5 minutes out of their day and make the fix to satisfy themselves in the mean time, while waiting for RED's permanent fix? In the time that it takes someone to right a whinny post, they could have had their solution and a sturdy rig. Don't get me wrong, I think RED is responsible for fixing faulty product, but come on guys show some initiative and fix it yourself for now. Lets let the RED guys concentrate on bringing us the real fix. They know there is a problem, and have said they are working on it. I think that if we keep bugging them and bashing on their product, the good feelings of genuinely wanting to help the customer, might get replaced with feelings of artificial obligation...I don't think anyone wants that. I just think in general we can all be a little more introspective, and respectful when posting our feelings of angst. We also have to remember that these are real people killing themselves to help us, not a faceless organization, placing your email in a cue, that will be looked at when someone gets around to it. Lets make sure to give RED, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism...not just criticism. These guys must be pulling their hair out getting ready for NAB.

Cheers to all

P.S. USE JAY's METHOD IT WORKS.

[sander kamp]

I'm not stressing out here, don't worry! I already had my own rock-solid solution made.

On a separate note: I think it would be good if RED would send out emails to all people who possibly received not properly working accessories. I had to dive deep into the boards to find out that my audio cables are not good, that my order was missing a power cable from the charger (for which I strangely received a second charger) and now that RED is thinking on a solution for the dovetail.

[Sean]

For those of you that would like a fix... Take a good quality business card (not a paper one, a business CARD) and cut it the size of that hole on the plate. Take off the rubber thingy, punch a little hole in the card when the stud will come up. Push the card down into the hole and let the stud force it's way through (Do not cut a hole to size, let the stud come through and make it's own hole). Flatten the card into the hole, put the rubber piece back on top, and if the business card was the right thickness, the wobble will go away. Fair warning, the lever will be hard to lock into place, but it will lock, and the wobble will be gone.

Good luck to you all

I wanna try this fix. I don't totally get it though. I'd love to see a picture of what you're actually doing with this business card. (But you might not wanna take your dovetail off once you finally have it securely set up!)

[David Wyatt]

We had our original bottom plate & shoulder dovetail completely replaced as it was wobbly. The replacement was rock solid to begin with but has now gone the way of the other one and is now unacceptably wobbly (a good example of how unacceptable this is is that we were doing a promo the other day which was 100% tracking, there were a few bumps in the track (dodgy wheels or track or something) which got magnified horrendously by the wobbly nature of the mount. We ended up wratchet-strapping the camera to the head which was a really professional look!)

I don't really buy this new response that the shoulder dovetail was never meant to be rock solid - if that's true why was our first one replaced? There's obviously some kind of design flaw because our new one worked fine to begin with but then developed the wobble. It's definitely worth Red working out this issue because the ability to go straight from handheld to sticks or dolly is an absolute godsend and was in fact one of the USPs for me for the base production pack. There are similar set-ups made by Arri et al that do this so it should be possible - again I can't state how desirable this set-up is, it can save you so much time on set - going from production mode to handheld is usually an absolute time-killer, everyone hates it.

In the meantime until this problem is sorted out I think we're going to need to invest in the Element Technica 19mm baseplate. It's unclear from the photo on the Red Store but does this have some kind of shoulder rest on the under side? If this is the case then going from hand-held to tripod/dolly would just be a case of sliding it off of the sliding baseplate rather than unclicking it from a snap plate - is that right? Also, just to double check before we buy, does the ET 19mm baseplate fit existing Arri sliding baseplates (we have one of them already). Theoretically you can then screw any snap plate from pretty much any head into the bottom of that Arri sliding baseplate, right?

p.s. can the Red Store have those kind of 3D photos where you can navigate around the object, look at the top, bottom, sides etc. I've seen it on other websites and it'd be really handy for Red accessories...just an idea.

[Karl H]

for what it's worth I'll chime in too.

Mine wobbles but I dont want to fork out for the ET gear, especially as in addition to the plate you'd still need to buy a shoulder mounting system.

The idea of the dovetail is a good one, so please dont lose sight of that. A system that can be taken right off the tripod and onto the shoulder.

My temporary solution is to buy the cheeseplate, but I dont really want the long term inconvenience of having to change the mounting options just to get the thing on my shoulder.

So I throw my hat in with the others that ask for a rock solid solution with this flexibility.

And Red, as much as I love you I dont recall ever being told that the dovetail was never meant to be a solid mount when I made my purchase, not until people started saying it was wobbly. I would have reconsidered my options if I knew this from the off.

[Sean]

for what it's worth I'll chime in too.

Mine wobbles but I dont want to fork out for the ET gear, especially as in addition to the plate you'd still need to buy a shoulder mounting system.

The idea of the dovetail is a good one, so please dont lose sight of that. A system that can be taken right off the tripod and onto the shoulder.

My temporary solution is to buy the cheeseplate, but I dont really want the long term inconvenience of having to change the mounting options just to get the thing on my shoulder.

So I throw my hat in with the others that ask for a rock solid solution with this flexibility.

And Red, as much as I love you I dont recall ever being told that the dovetail was never meant to be a solid mount when I made my purchase, not until people started saying it was wobbly. I would have reconsidered my options if I knew this from the off.

I think most of us would simply have passed on Red's shoulder mount option and bought a 3rd party shoulder mount.

Red did design something more economical in this dovetail solution than anyone else was offering. But they managed to do that with a camera that delivers more than we expected for the money. I will accept some compromises (look, weight, efficiency) in a cheaper shoulder-to-tripod mount system. But I still want it to work.

[Obin Olson]

I agree life does not wait for the bolts to be changed out. Need solid Dovetail asap.



That is completely unworkable for documentary production. We need to pull the camera off the sticks with a quick release and go. Life doesn't wait for 4 hex bolts and swapping the gear off the rods.

Can the cheeseplate and shoulder mount co-exist:?

[Jarred Land]

It is a shoulder mount... it was designed as a shoulder mount. It is named a Shoulder mount.....

People who are saying they bought a shoulder mount and thought it was a tripod mount I don't really know what to tell you..

[Dexter Gregoire]

Should the bottom plate from the Basic production be sufficient enough or the cheese plate instead?

[sander kamp]

Remember, the Base Production pack is a heavily-discounted starter pack to get you into a hand held system (hence the handle).

Sorry Jarred but if that's true then why is this picture on the RED website:

http://www.red.com/skin/img/photo_zoom/redone_8.jpg

That looks like a fully decked out RED on a really sturdy tripod to me all held together by a .... dovetail?

[donatello b]

It is a shoulder mount... it was designed as a shoulder mount. It is named a Shoulder mount.....

People who are saying they bought a shoulder mount and thought it was a tripod mount I don't really know what to tell you..

perhaps some of the confusion was( is) from RED's photo's showing the camera with Arri FF,MB , cooke lens with the shoulder dove tail on a tripod=
i assume i can do the same ( perhaps fine print under the photo stating the set up is for photo purposes only and not intended to be used on tripod as shown in photo??) ..
now i didn't see any photo's of the same set up with the 300mm so i assume the shoulder dove tail thing can't take it ...

[sander kamp]

It is a shoulder mount... it was designed as a shoulder mount. It is named a Shoulder mount.....

People who are saying they bought a shoulder mount and thought it was a tripod mount I don't really know what to tell you..

The photos clearly suggest otherwise.

[Jarred Land]

yes.. I will give you guys that one. :)

It was just for a photo but it is suggestive.. and ill make sure we fix that.

[Sean]

Or maybe just miscommunication? The Red accessories were always vague. We are learning now that the shoulder mount doesn't really offer a tripod mounting option. I didn't know that.

[Jarred Land]

Agree with the miscommunication (or lack of it).. the accessories didnt have descriptions until recently, we are working on improving.

[David Wyatt]

I think Element Technica are working on a sturdier & more reliable method for going instantaneously from handheld to head, according to their website. You'd still need their bridge-plate ($900) so the total figure might end up putting a lot of people off. Arri used to make a fantastic bit of kit that was a handheld rig (with adjustable handle bars) that slotted into their bridge plate but also had a click plate machined into it so you could just unclick it from the head and go straight into handheld (no sliding it off a baseplate or sliding off a shoulder mount etc). Design-wise it wasn't a million miles away from the Red shoulder dovetail - same concept but just sturdier design and the benefit of attaching to Arri's bomb-proof bridge plates.

[Brent@RED]

Like Jarred mentioned, we have been trying to focus on improving communication lines from RED to the customer: email blasts with information for each delivery batch, emails when new firmware or software is available, posts on REDUSER, adding descriptions to product detail pages on the website, Jon's "what you need to know" thread, etc. We know we still have a ways to go - a robust FAQ section for RED.com is one thing we are working on now.

If you have any suggestions on what information you need and how you'd like to receive it, feel free to PM me. Most customer communication goes through me or Jon.

I hope everyone sees that we have tried to improve leaps and bounds in our processes and communication. But we still have goals to get even better.

BC

[Jarred Land]

i assume i can do the same ( perhaps fine print under the photo stating the set up is for photo purposes only and not intended to be used on tripod as shown in photo??) ..

good idea.. but we will just get some new photos to be more clear and to avoid confusion. The camera isnt being "used" in that photo, but im starting to understand how people are thinking the way they are.

[I Bloom]

It is a shoulder mount... it was designed as a shoulder mount. It is named a Shoulder mount.....

People who are saying they bought a shoulder mount and thought it was a tripod mount I don't really know what to tell you..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FvLbxD4Pbs

Matt Tremblay states in this video that it is made for putting on a tripod.

This thread makes me pretty upset.

Ian Bloom

[zak forrest]

Yes and the "shoulder" mount has holes in it for a tripod.

[Jarred Land]

Yes and the "shoulder" mount has holes in it for a tripod.

that is so it can be put on a head for stationary purposes, or camera cart or because it doesnt "rest" when you put it down.. like in the photo :)

[Jason Diamond]

But that doesnt make any sense.. why wouldn't you just call it a shoulder mount and not a dovetail? first dovetail that doesn't dovetail.

[Jarred Land]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FvLbxD4Pbs

Matt Tremblay states in this video that it is made for putting on a tripod.

This thread makes me pretty upset.

Ian Bloom


That video is from a year ago.. with parts that don't exist. (that is not the shoulder dovetail) it was a prototype that didn't work... hence, the cheeseplate.

Ian... relax.


But that doesnt make any sense.. why wouldn't you just call it a shoulder mount and not a dovetail? first dovetail that doesn't dovetail.

Do you even know what a dovetail is? It has a dovetail. it is a dovetail.

You guys are starting to frustrate me.

[Joel Kaye]

Yes and the "shoulder" mount has holes in it for a tripod.

Let's face it, they probably originally intended it to work perfectly on a tripod and it ended up with a tiny wobble. The"hole" design wasn't the best choice. But I will be quick to add when I get my camera on there and I do a tilt or pan I'm not seeing wobbles. It's only if you grab the camera and shake it around in a way that you'd never do in a real shot that you can get it to wobble. I guess that's disconcerting... but that's about all.

To me a cheesplate isn't a particularly appealing alternative. I might as well toss another rail system on at that point. But spending twice as much from ET doesn't sound great. The basic production pack starts looking pretty good when you think of what you get for the money.

Which reminds me, I just had my production pack replaced and the parts all fit tight. The handgrip is rock solid and the new finish is great.

[wshultz]

Let's face it, they probably originally intended it to work perfectly on a tripod and it ended up with a tiny wobble. The"hole" design wasn't the best choice. But I will be quick to add when I get my camera on there and I do a tilt or pan I'm not seeing wobbles. It's only if you grab the camera and shake it around in a way that you'd never do in a real shot that you can get it to wobble. I guess that's disconcerting... but that's about all.

To me a cheesplate isn't a particularly appealing alternative. I might as well toss another rail system on at that point. But spending twice as much from ET doesn't sound great. The basic production pack starts looking pretty good when you think of what you get for the money.

Which reminds me, I just had my production pack replaced and the parts all fit tight. The handgrip is rock solid and the new finish is great.

I'm not sure...are you being humorous here? Your system is tight and doesn't wobble...because you replaced the production pack and got the new finish as well?

As for me, I got an exceptionally loose one. It doesn't take unusual shaking or movement to rattle.The bottom of the mount that bolts to the plate is rock solid.:blush: It's the dovetail lock that moves. I'm not sure why this is acceptable in a handheld situation.:blink:

I'm not really all that bent about this situation, I would probably be perfectly happy with an exchange for one that wobbled a lot less. I honestly thought this was marketed as a mount that also had the option of morphing into a shoulder mount. Not a shoulder mount that could be used on a tripod in a pinch.

[Matt Tremblay]

Hi guys, this is Matthew Tremblay. I am the designer of the Red Shoulder Dovetail and every other piece of RED gear that exists. I thought it was time for me to step in for clarification on this matter. In regards to the "Youtube" video, you were seeing NAB 2007 which displayed an old concept of the RED RAIL SYSTEM. Every part on that system has been completely redesigned to cut weight. I was able shave over 6 pounds off the rail system alone. So what you see on "youtube" and what currently exist as a product line is completely different, so please do not compare them.

In regards to the Shoulder Dovetail, this design was created to give the user the ability to go from a primarily shoulder mounted situation to a stationary tripod mount quickly. Now, with that being said, It was not designed to go from the shoulder into a hard mounted situation where you are doing fast dynamic movements. We were designing this more for a documentary style setup where the camera would be on your shoulder the major of the time, or the camera would be stationary without much movement. It was never meant to be "rock" solid... That is why I designed the RED CHEESE PLATE.

As for the wobbling problems that much of you are experiencing, this is due to the durometer and thickness of the rubber insert to allow for graceful locking mechanism movement. As Jarred said before, currently, we are prototyping an alternative insert that should allow for "sturdier" fixed mounting..."sturdy" does not mean "rock"solid... Again, that is why the CHEESE PLATE exists.

[wshultz]

Sturdier is definitely good for me. Thanks Matt.

[Sean]

I'd be thrilled with sturdier.

[Joel Kaye]

I honestly thought this was marketed as a mount that also had the option of morphing into a shoulder mount. Not a shoulder mount that could be used on a tripod in a pinch.

My first one was one of the "troubled" production packs and it had several issues. I sent 'em to RED and they took good care of me. What they sent back is totally usable right now. So I guess I just wanted to put some people's mind at ease. If they can replace the locking mechanism or the rubber pad to be tighter still that would be awesome.

In the end it's a price/value proposition. The answer won't be the same for everyone.

[Jarred Land]

we are listening....

just dont try and tell us why we make decisions.

[Obin Olson]

Hi guys, this is Matthew Tremblay. I am the designer of the Red Shoulder Dovetail and every other piece of RED gear that exists. I thought it was time for me to step in for clarification on this matter. In regards to the "Youtube" video, you were seeing NAB 2007 which displayed an old concept of the RED RAIL SYSTEM. Every part on that system has been completely redesigned to cut weight. I was able shave over 6 pounds off the rail system alone. So what you see on "youtube" and what currently exist as a product line is completely different, so please do not compare them.

In regards to the Shoulder Dovetail, this design was created to give the user the ability to go from a primarily shoulder mounted situation to a stationary tripod mount quickly. Now, with that being said, It was not designed to go from the shoulder into a hard mounted situation where you are doing fast dynamic movements. We were designing this more for a documentary style setup where the camera would be on your shoulder the major of the time, or the camera would be stationary without much movement. It was never meant to be "rock" solid... That is why I designed the RED CHEESE PLATE.

As for the wobbling problems that much of you are experiencing, this is due to the durometer and thickness of the rubber insert to allow for graceful locking mechanism movement. As Jarred said before, currently, we are prototyping an alternative insert that should allow for "sturdier" fixed mounting..."sturdy" does not mean "rock"solid... Again, that is why the CHEESE PLATE exists.

I have taken it 100% apart to try and fix it. I can't. If you would machine the slot to be wider all issues would go away right now. The round "pin" that pushes up inside the bottom mount is very small, this acts as a ball would under a dish, the dish will wobble and fall as does the dovetail when you push on it. If you would replace the point contact with a flat BAR that was wider I think it would go away....

with me on this?

[Matt Tremblay]

I have taken it 100% apart to try and fix it. I can't. If you would machine the slot to be wider all issues would go away right now. The round "pin" that pushes up inside the bottom mount is very small, this acts as a ball would under a dish, the dish will wobble and fall as does the dovetail when you push on it. If you would replace the point contact with a flat BAR that was wider I think it would go away....

with me on this?

I here you, and you are on track with our thinking on this. For immediate resolution, it might be interesting to attempt what I have heard others(Jay and Grandpa) suggest previously.

[Finner]

I here you, and you are on track with our thinking on this. For immediate resolution, it might be interesting to attempt what I have heard others(Jay and Grandpa) suggest previously.

Your quoting "Grandpa it Burns" now?

Some help here below for you Matt. I am sure Red has a good health plan. They say it will take about 5-7 years of work to pull through it. We are all routing for ya man.

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/common/standard/transform.jsp?requestURI=/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/multiple_personality_disorder.jsp

[Matt Tremblay]

Finner, I always enjoy your posts, thank you for being so respectful to all of us here at RED.

[Karl H]

It is a shoulder mount... it was designed as a shoulder mount. It is named a Shoulder mount.....

People who are saying they bought a shoulder mount and thought it was a tripod mount I don't really know what to tell you..

With respect Jarred why in the Basic production kit is there no option for tripod mounting? This would lead anyone to believe that the shoulder mount that also mounts to the tripod would be sufficient. Thats how I read it and was not told otherwise. Was told the basic production kit was everything we needed to get shooting.

I'd consider something as 'basic' as tripod mounting to be included in that kit. It is fundamental. I dont get the omission, really. Its THE most basic essential

If you didnt think the dovetail was good enough from day one, then why isnt the cheeseplate part of the production kit instead? To make people buy that as a seperate item - well it makes no sense.

but enough complaining. ive already ordered the cheeseplate. But I was hoping you might come out with a better solution.

[Finner]

No problem Matt,

I have been going through the same therapy for my belief that I am "The Hoff" but it's my bouts as "Lady Godiva" combined with my Goldwing that have got me in the most trouble.

[Rick Darge]

the WASHER trick works magic people!!!

No wobbles! and its a cheap quick fix

[Jarred Land]

With respect Jarred why in the Basic production kit is there no option for tripod mounting? This would lead anyone to believe that the shoulder mount that also mounts to the tripod would be sufficient. Thats how I read it and was not told otherwise. Was told the basic production kit was everything we needed to get shooting.

I'd consider something as 'basic' as tripod mounting to be included in that kit. It is fundamental. I dont get the omission, really. Its THE most basic essential

There are already holes in the bottom of the CAMERA to solidly mount to any tripod... just like every camera out there. Everyone is missing that point. The only issue is people want to have a shoulder bracket AND a solid tripod mount in the same piece...

As I said.. The base production pack is a handheld focused system (thats why it comes with the shoulder mount and the front handle and Rod)



If you didnt think the dovetail was good enough from day one, then why isnt the cheeseplate part of the production kit instead? To make people buy that as a seperate item - well it makes no sense.

Ok.. this pisses me off so much im not going to even respond.

[Maz Mawlawi]

question: Does the cheese plate slide into the base plate that supports the Rods?

[Jason Ing]

poor jarred. :sad: i give you credit for hanging in there.

you guys are going to give him a nervous breakdown.

i read through this thread and he keeps having to repeat himself. :unsure:

he's going to start stuttering soon.

[Brook Willard]

question: Does the cheese plate slide into the base plate that supports the Rods?

Nah, you unscrew the base plate from the camera, screw the cheese plate to the base plate and then screw the base plate back on.

[Maz Mawlawi]

ah ok. Thanks man!

[Casey Green]

Jarred,

Thanks for looking into making the baseplate / dovetail sturdier.

[sander kamp]

Please understand that the whole issue here is not how the dovetail was intended to be used or how it was designed. This is about how the difference between how this product was presented to us and what you can actually do with it. It is is not about design or manufacturing, it is about communication.

When I ordered the production pack there was never any mention of needing the cheese plate, I assumed and many people with me that the dovetail was designed to be used on a tripod and even today that is the way it is presented on the RED website. It never said 'hand-held system' and I never saw a picture of it used like that.

Sure, it was a good deal as part of the production pack, but people still payed money for it. It is a bit like you buy a four-wheel drive because the car is in a commercial going through the jungle, up hills and what not and the first day you take it for a spin off the road it breaks down. You complain to the manufacturer and he says: Oh no! The car was not intended for rough terrain, that was only for the pictures!

And dear people at RED, stop taking things so personal and relax, okay? We had different expectations so we need to complain a bit but I am sure we can all work this out. We still love you all :)

[Ken Hendricks]

Oh my! I hate to jump into this discussion, but it seems to be getting pretty ugly.

I was reading the latest Operations Guide, and right there on page three is a picture of the "RED ONE camera with Basic Production Package" mounted on a tripod. It doesn't specify how tightly the camera is mounted, but from the picture, it does seem to imply that the package is intended to be used in this manner.

The ops guide goes on to say "In addition the shoulder pad/wedge plate adaptor can slide against the base plate and be locked in position. The adaptor includes wedge plate mounting holes, so there is no need to remove this component between on-the-shoulder and tripod applications."

I truly mean no disrespect, but to me "locked in position" sounds like it would be very solid. In addition "no need to remove this component between on-the-shoulder and tripod applications" seems pretty definitive. I don't think that my understanding of these words is completely off base. I may be misunderstanding the meaning implied, and if so, please let me know.

Believe me, I have no intention of adding to the ugliness of this thread, but the Red Camera Bible (ops guide) appears to contradict the current Red position in this debate. At least that is how it appears to me. Maybe this is where some of the misunderstanding is coming from.

With all of that said, I am completely blown away buy the quality and value of the parts that I have received thus far. Not to mention the incredible service that I have gotten from Dan and Red in general. I have absolutely zero complaints.

As fate would have it, my particular shoulder pad/wedge plate adapter is on backorder status. I am absolutely sure that this is because when my parts are shipped, they will be everything that I expected and then some.

Thanks Jim and Red,

Ken

[Jarred Land]

Please understand that the whole issue here is not how the dovetail was intended to be used or how it was designed.

i would love that to be true.. but people like darkline who is accusing us of making a crappy dovetail on purpose to force people to buy the cheeseplate, is the opposite of that, and it rightfully pisses me off.

Calling our stuff crap is fine, I will get over that. However, accusing us of dishonest business practices is going to make me mad, and I wont stand for it.

Anyways..

I understand the communication is the biggest problem in all of this.. and like I said we are taking steps to make that better. It is clear that some people just didnt get what they thought they were getting, and its clear that we didn't do a good job getting the proper information out there.

[Paul Kalbach]

Nah, you unscrew the base plate from the camera, screw the cheese plate to the base plate and then screw the base plate back on.

Does this mean that the Cheese Plate can be (somewhat permanently) mounted between the camera and base plate and left there; and then the dove-tail shoulder mount can be popped on and off on the fly for hand-held use?
Or does the Cheese Plate have to be removed in order to use the Dove-plate?

[Jarred Land]

Cheese Plate must be removed before you slide the shoulder dovetail in.

[wshultz]

Jarred, I love your avatar because even when you're pissed you still look like a nice guy. I wouldn't want to see you REALLY mad at anyone.

[Jarred Land]

Jarred, I love your avatar because even when you're pissed you still look like a nice guy. I wouldn't want to see you REALLY mad at anyone.

heh heh heh..

There is a big difference between constructive criticism (which we love) and being an ass and making slanderous allegations.

We love product feedback, good and bad, as it helps us make better stuff in a short period of time. Remember, we have only been making this stuff for less than a year, so there are bound to be some kinks that we need to work out.

This thread, as ugly as it is, has some great posts with "tricks" that people like Jay have provided on how to make a product better.. and that's all that really matters when it comes down to it.

[Rick Darge]

Hey guys

Here is a quick tutorial about how to make your cradle/dovetail work for you..

excuse the terrible video quality... I shot this with a Sony camera, what can I say..

www.redforrent.com/washerfix.mov

[Jarred Land]

Okay... i think we are done here. Im trimming this thread back to the last good post.. thanks RGDfilms for the video, and thanks to everyone that have given us suggestions on how to make the dovetail better for many of you.