Pimp up your RED with Uncle Scrooge

[Eddie]

http://tinypic.com/29g6te

This thread is intended for all the broke-ass indies who wants to cut all corners in the (untill recently) rental-based economy of 35mm motion picture acquisition...
I´ll add all the cheap suggestions and corrections you have.

Here is what I´ll get from RED (Paid with pleasure and a big thank you)
RedOne Body, Basic Production pack, LCD + Cable, PowerPack, 2 Red Drives, CF-Module
Subtotal 25.000$

From here on it´s all about being cheap, and off course wait untill everything has been tested.

Mount: Birger/canon

Lenses:
Tokina: 11-16mm f/2.8 (http://www.tokinalens.com/products/tokina/atx165prodx-a.html)approx (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Tokina-AT-X-116-PRO-DX-11-16mm-F2-8-for-Canon_W0QQitemZ150230189578QQihZ005QQcategoryZ3007 0QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247 QQcmdZViewItem) 710$
Tokina 16-50mm ATX f/2.8: (http://www.tokinalens.com/products/tokina/atx165prodx-a.html)approx (http://cgi.ebay.com/Tokina-AT-X-165-PRO-DX-AF-16-50mm-f-2-8-Nikon-Canon_W0QQitemZ320195638277QQihZ011QQcategoryZ1068 74QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp 1638Q2em118Q2el1247) 660$
Tokina 50-135mm (http://www.tokinalens.com/products/tokina/atx535prodx-a.html) f/2.8, approx (http://www.tokinalens.com/products/tokina/atx165prodx-a.html) $720 An alternative would be the
Canon EF-S 17-55mmf/2.8 IS (http://www.amazon.com/Canon-EF-S-17-55mm-Lens-Cameras/dp/B000EW8074).
and the
Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 IS (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-70-200mm-2-8-USM-Lens/dp/B0000C4G4W)
I am especially keen on the image stabilisation, because it gives you an improved performance at 1/25 sec shutter and mights save you some $$$$ on lighting.

Or sigma:
18-50 f/2,8 (http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3328&navigator=6)
+
50-150mm f/2,8 (http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3338&navigator=6)
Primes Sigma: 30mm f/1.4 (http://www.amazon.com/Sigma-30mm-Nikon-Digital-Cameras/dp/B0007U0H06/ref=sr_1_33?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1205953821&sr=1-33)
Sigma: 50mm f/1.4 (http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3353&navigator=8)

85mm 1.8 canon (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=152&modelid=7311)

New 100$ DIY handheld shoulder mount (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=258502&postcount=1)

PC:
Intel Q6600 Quadcore ~180€ (Q9300 once available)
4 GB RAM DDR2-667 ~60€
I965 basing Board ~60-70€ (integrated G-Ethernet, 2 G-Ethernet make sense, on board graphic for pure number crunching also)
case with >400W Power ~40-60€
500 GB Disk ~70€
these components are the sweet spot of the market today.
If you intend to use Redcine, a
GF 8800GT card with 512MB at 150-200€ makes sense. (hat tip: Laguun)

SECOND ALTERNATIVE: HACKINTOSH (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=179719&postcount=47)

AKA Scrooge MAC:

"Last december I built my very first Hackintosh, which is basically a way to install Tiger (or Leopard) on PC hardware.
A quadcore (Intel q6600) 2.6ghz, 2.4ghz, 4gigs of ram, 2 x 500gig HD, GEForce 7800GT.
This cost me a little over $900. FCP works. Logic Audio. All the Adobe stuff. It's nearly perfect. I -just- ran an xBench (with things running). Without doing the disk tests, my machine comes in a 208. The average Mac Pro clocks 156. I'm happy.The OS install has one minor glitch (it doesn't sleep the way I'd like, and when I reboot, i have to unplug and re-plug the keyboard), but I simply didn't want to spend $3000 at Apple in order to not-re-plug. My laziness has bounds." thanks to GvilleTV


Software: hhmmmm... it begins with azu...

Tripod: For light setups (still lenses) ENG tripods, should be fully functional, and seems to be the best bang-for-buck. Vladimir Eugene has tried the dynatran (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=183364&postcount=1)and is quite happy with the results. After seeing kilgroes review of the manfrotto I think the dynatran might be the best solution.
(Candidates: Arrow 55, Daiwa 15, Dynatran AT-9905H, Manfrotto 526, O´connor 50 )

MAttebox:0.00$
Followfocus: 0.00$
NDs: 2-8stops 77mm 340$ Vari NDs (http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html)

CF- Cards: ??? (rumours about problems with third party cards)

Mics:
Shotguns: CS-Sanken 700$ 1, NTG-2 300$
Hypers: Michael jolys Oktava 12-03 Mod PE (http://www.oktavamodshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_30&products_id=99) (incl. omni and cardiod) 395$
Lavalier: pair of Coresound binaurals (http://www.core-sound.com/bk/1.php), Countryman b6
(other suggestions are welcome, since RED has an emphasis on capturing raw audio data, with very little adjustments on the fly, the choice of microphone is crucial so if anyone is an audio expert please chime in)

Extra RAM: ???

Exstra HDs: ???

EXT soundrecorder: Coresounds 4mic (http://www.core-sound.com/4Mic/1.php) to be used with a microtrack II as bitbucket

Monitor: ???
mounting option (http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(r31wlpqoapi0rxzdy0gi0cur)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=998019857) 1,25$

Floorstand for monitor 35 $ (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=230734&postcount=1) (again thanks to dexter)

HMI Daylight alternatives:

LED 1kw 849$ (http://www.prompterpeople.com/led1000.php)

ALZO HMI Kit 2700$ (http://www.alzovideo.com/alzo_video_hmi_location_kit_studio_i.htm)
Maxlite 400watt equivalent (http://www.greenelectricalsupply.com/200-watt-compact-fluorescent-retrofit-bulb.aspx) (not tested)
LUMENLAB DIY 200$ (http://www.lumenlab.com/estore/product.php?productid=16180&cat=252&page=1)

[Brian Reisdorf]

You're going to want at least 2, probably 4 CF Cards. Not all shots are appropriate for Red Drive use.

[Brandon Fraley]

excellent! ;) i'm really interested in a cheapest versatile tripod i can get, plus i'd like to know if the sigmas work well with a matte box (my 28-70 grows and shrinks and you zoom)

[Michael Stanmore]

I can't believe this but I'm actually most freaked out about the tripod situation...

We need someone to make us a heavy duty hi-spec fluid head and legs that doesn't cost $8000-$10000

[Brandon Fraley]

I can't believe this but I'm actually most freaked out about the tripod situation...

We need someone to make us a heavy duty hi-spec fluid head and legs that doesn't cost $8000-$10000

exactly. this was the biggest shock to me of ALL the expenses I've looked into

[Nick Gardner]

If you are really going to just use still lenses, the o'conner 50 really isn't a bad head. Bang for the buck, it's pretty damn good. It's no where near as good as a modern fluid head, but you can certainly make smooth moves with it.

Nick

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I can't believe this but I'm actually most freaked out about the tripod situation...

We need someone to make us a heavy duty hi-spec fluid head and legs that doesn't cost $8000-$10000

what about miller heads....saw them somewhere for 5.5k fully equiped...could carry something between 40-50 lbs...but cant remember where or which head exactly.

[Vladimir Eugene]

Just in time http://www.amvona.com/?page=shop/flypage&view=1&product_id=2658

I just ordered from this company today. It's really affordable and they say it's great quality. When I recieve it next Wednesday I'll have a more complete review. But initial impression- looks very promising



I can't believe this but I'm actually most freaked out about the tripod situation...

We need someone to make us a heavy duty hi-spec fluid head and legs that doesn't cost $8000-$10000

[Eddie]

The best candidate for an uncle scrooge fluid head may be the SLIK-DAIWA 15. I have tried to gather some information from people who have used it. But most of them just dissed the brand, not the product.

Daiwa 15 (http://www.globalmediapro.com/do/product/2066)

[Jason Ing]

yeah, at that price i'm opting for an actioncam.

[Jason Ing]

what about the canon 24-70L and 70-200L?

[Steve Sherrick]

One of the best bangs for the buck is the Arrow 55. It's not an O'Connor, but for general shooting with loads up to 40-50lbs (it can do up to 55) it handles my RED rig nicely. And I have a large zoom on the front. Worth a look. Also look for a used Sachtler 20. We tested this briefly yesterday, and it too held up nicely. The one we tested was a 20 year old tripod, no problems. The Arrow 55 with sticks can be had for anywhere between 5 and 6K.

[Brandon Fraley]

i guess it's unreasonable, but I'll be really disappointed if I can't get a quality head and sticks for under $2k

[Jason Ing]

well, what is the minimum requirement for a "good" tripod? maybe i'm showing my ignorance, but all i need a tripod for is to hold the weight of the "heavy" red setup (production back, drive, zoom lens, etc) that will do "smooth" pans and tilts. and a good height range. am i wrong? i know there is "smooth" and "buttery smooth", etc., but if it doesn't affect the end product any differently -- image movement -- , then i don't need to be spoiled.

[Steve Sherrick]

Jing,
I know spending thousands on a tripod sounds painful and it is, but there is a difference. Now some people won't be loading their REDs up as much as others, so if you have a lightweight rig, then you may find some of the more affordable tripods are okay. I'd look for a good, used Sachtler, Ronford, or even one of the old O'connors. If it's in good shape it will make a difference in your pans. I've used my share of bad tripods over the years and even though they held the weight I couldn't get smooth pan and tilts. Sometimes it was the head just wasn't fluid enough, or the sticks were too light and they would shake when the wind blew. These types of things can ruin otherwise good shots. So find your threshold monetarily and determine what you are willing to accept in terms of quality. You'll find something decent for $2-3K if you're looking to do lightweight.

[Jason Ing]

Jing,
I know spending thousands on a tripod sounds painful and it is, but there is a difference. Now some people won't be loading their REDs up as much as others, so if you have a lightweight rig, then you may find some of the more affordable tripods are okay. I'd look for a good, used Sachtler, Ronford, or even one of the old O'connors. If it's in good shape it will make a difference in your pans. I've used my share of bad tripods over the years and even though they held the weight I couldn't get smooth pan and tilts. Sometimes it was the head just wasn't fluid enough, or the sticks were too light and they would shake when the wind blew. These types of things can ruin otherwise good shots. So find your threshold monetarily and determine what you are willing to accept in terms of quality. You'll find something decent for $2-3K if you're looking to do lightweight.

damn. :ranting2: that's what i was worried about.

thanks for sharing your experience. that's the kind of advice i look for.

we'll, when I get tired of playing human tripod with my actioncam, i'll have to say goodbye to a huge chunk of change and get a good tripod. :bye2:

i saw a few oconnor 1030s at the LA reduser meeting. seemed pretty good. i'll wait and see what other users report on arrow and panthers, etc.

[jbeale]

Just in time http://www.amvona.com/?page=shop/flypage&view=1&product_id=2658


Interesting, I've never heard anyone talk about the Amvona head, but at 30 lbs capacity it could handle a minimum Red setup, at least. I'd be curious to hear your impressions. I've been frustrated in the past by prosumer "fluid effect" heads that ended up being pretty sticky. I have an old O'Connor #30 which is sticky in a different way (silicone fluid leaks).

[John Brawley]

i guess it's unreasonable, but I'll be really disappointed if I can't get a quality head and sticks for under $2k

Yeah. It's unreasonable.

You get what you pay for with tripods. No shortcuts.

jb

[Larry McKee]

The best candidate for an uncle scrooge fluid head may be the SLIK-DAIWA 15. I have tried to gather some information from people who have used it. But most of them just dissed the brand, not the product.

Daiwa 15 (http://www.globalmediapro.com/do/product/2066)

For that price you can get a Cartoni Gamma. Not sure I would want to spent that much on a Slik.

[Steve Sherrick]

You could get something like this.
http://www.visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail02.asp?productID=392&Cat=48&Cat2=49
They can match them up with some sticks, probably get the whole rig for less than $2500 and they offer a warranty.

[Matt Gottshalk]

Yeah. It's unreasonable.

You get what you pay for with tripods. No shortcuts.

jb

QFT unfortunately.

[John Brawley]

QFT unfortunately.


What amazes me is that people are *demanding* that someone manufacture a cheap tripod that still performs like a 10K unit.

The camera is the cheapest part of this whole equation. Isn't that revolutionary enough ?

jb

[Brandon Fraley]

What amazes me is that people are *demanding* that someone manufacture a cheap tripod that still performs like a 10K unit.

You mean like a $17k camera that performs like a $100k camera? ;) or maybe a $700 matte box that performs like a $5k matte box?

It's only a matter of time, I'd rather it be sooner than later.

[John Brawley]

You mean like a $17k camera that performs like a $100k camera? ;) or maybe a $700 matte box that performs like a $5k matte box?

It's only a matter of time, I'd rather it be sooner than later.


It's different with a camera because there are improvements to electronics, components, DSP, software etc.

A tripod is a pretty basic bit of engineering in comparison. There aren't going to be the huge leaps in manufacturing that can take place with electronics. Why would you expect the same rate of cost downscaling ?

jb

[Redrhoads]

Jing,
I know spending thousands on a tripod sounds painful and it is, but there is a difference. Now some people won't be loading their REDs up as much as others, so if you have a lightweight rig, then you may find some of the more affordable tripods are okay. I'd look for a good, used Sachtler, Ronford, or even one of the old O'connors. If it's in good shape it will make a difference in your pans. I've used my share of bad tripods over the years and even though they held the weight I couldn't get smooth pan and tilts. Sometimes it was the head just wasn't fluid enough, or the sticks were too light and they would shake when the wind blew. These types of things can ruin otherwise good shots. So find your threshold monetarily and determine what you are willing to accept in terms of quality. You'll find something decent for $2-3K if you're looking to do lightweight.

+2

I hate throwing brands around, but I got spoiled with Sachtler/O'Connor stuff. I'm not above using comparable cheaper products though. I just hope no one out there is using a Manfrotto/bogen 516 or 526 under their REDs, a big no-no in my opinion.

[Colin C]

The DAIWA 15 package support an advertised 33lb which is on the light side of RED configurations by the sound of it. I'm not saying that its not a bad product by any means. But rather whether with buying support, people have really thought what they want to do long term with their RED.

If you're absolutely comitted to buying instead of renting, but don't want to spend too much maybe a second-hand purchase of something that can support more is wiser long term as opposed to buying something that has a weight limit thats going to cap what you configure your camera with.

As John says, I wouldn't be looking to a sudden innovative inspired drop in Tripod prices.

[laguun]

There are good brands with good products for tripods and heads in the €€€ range.

As kick-ass price/performance head, i would probably recommend manfrotto, the 526.

Its priced ~800-900 eur, 1300-1400 USD.
Manfrotto understands quite a bit about support systems....

http://www.manfrotto.com/Jahia/site/manfrotto/cache/offonce/pid/3716?livid=80&lsf=80&child=2
http://www.gomediamonkey.com/proddetail.php?prod=BOG526

"Feature-packed fluid head for heavy-duty, professional video
Packed with features and capable of supporting over 35 lbs., the 526 Pro Fluid Video Head, perfect for heavy-duty, high end ENG and EFP applications.

The 526 uses Manfrotto’s most precise fluid drag system, composed of three step settings for low to high drag, plus a no-drag setting for snap-pans and tilts.

Large rubber, padded knobs and attention to the overall design – with all controls on the left side of the head – make this workhorse head a breeze to use.

Designed to support professional video cameras, the 526 Pro Fluid Video Head contains an adjustable spring for providing counterbalance for a wide-range of camera weights, and a built-in 100mm half-ball for adaptability. The 526 also features a removable pan arm rosette, allowing for easy replacement.

The 526 comes with one pan arm and the long 357PLV plate.

Specifications:
weight: 7.9 lbs
load capacity: 35.3 lbs
panoramic rotation: 360 °
minimum working temperature: -20 °C
maximum working temperature: 60 °C
working height: 5.9 in
color: black
material: aluminum
independent pan lock: yes
tilt drag: 0 plus 3 step
front tilt: -70° / +75°
quick release: yes
secondary safety system: yes
bubble spirit level (no): 1
pan bars included (no.): 1
pan bar positions: 2
plate type: 357PLV
attachment (bottom): 3/8'' screw
attachment: 1/4" and 3/8" screws
pan drag: 0 plus 3 step
independent tilt lock: yes
variable balance control: yes
counterbalance: yes
additional pan handle: 519LV
sliding travel of plate: 3 in
balance control: one fix spring adjustable from 8 to 15kg
head bowl: 100mm"

[laguun]

+2

I hate throwing brands around, but I got spoiled with Sachtler/O'Connor stuff. I'm not above using comparable cheaper products though. I just hope no one out there is using a Manfrotto/bogen 516 or 526 under their REDs, a big no-no in my opinion.

we actually use both - sachtler and manfrotto.

sachtler certainly is more solid and is -necessary- for heavier setups, the 526 is not strong enough to support a fully loaded rig consisting of red, evf, lcd, angenieux zoom, heavy crosziel mattebox etc etc.

But what problems would you see with a 526 with a low- or midweight (20-30 lbs) setup on a manfrotto 526?

[laguun]

It's different with a camera because there are improvements to electronics, components, DSP, software etc.

A tripod is a pretty basic bit of engineering in comparison. There aren't going to be the huge leaps in manufacturing that can take place with electronics. Why would you expect the same rate of cost downscaling ?

jb

I agree that we wont see the same rate of cost downscaling.
However, economy of scale and ultra high profits of the european and american top-brands should allow a better offer.

I saw some chinese studio-tripods last year, all in the upper $$$, and man, they were supporting >80lbs rigs. My concern with them was support, as they dont have distributors in the EU.

[paul engstrom]

i picked up an Oconnor 50d (serviced and with warranty) from visual products and new miller sticks from custom supply (see the old Oconnor group buy pages) for under 2k. its a good setup. it can actually handle quite a bit of weight. its smooth. its the real deal. plus, you can probably sell for a good price if you choose to upgrade or change your approach later.

my 2c

[Shane V8F]

Speaking of selling an Oconnor 50 head and tripod. I just ordered a Cartoni C40 with Ronford legs, and will probably be selling my Ocnnor 50 when I get the new package set up.
You are right the 50 is a really smooth head. I have been using them since the 80's and they are really solid. I hope I love the C40, I know it is a much heaver setup and not good for run and gun shooting. If it doesn't blow me away, I will probably keep both.
PM me if you want to be informed on the Oconnor 50.

[Andrew Madu]

For those with an aversion to extortionate tripod costs! :) :

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1041948/1_image_stabilizer_for_any_camera_lose_the_tripod/

[Jason Ing]

It's different with a camera because there are improvements to electronics, components, DSP, software etc.

jb

i don't know if the low price can be attributed to only this.

i think it's also about less corporate greed and more business savvy. Could Jim charge more for Red and it still not be overpriced? Yes.

Part of the Red Revolution to me is creating high-quality product and then choosing to NOT charge an astronomical price for it because there are some customers with a lot of money (which also creates that exclusive "club" environment).

Look at viewfactor. I spoke to the viewfactor guy at the LA reduser meeting... sorry, I'm really bad at names... anyway... he said he could've gone down a path of markups that would eventually make his ff cost 2k plus or take the path that he's doing now that it now costs under 1k. And I have to say, I tried it out and it's really sweet. Other "professional" brand ff units can cost upwards to 6k+, I think. Huge difference. Guess what ff I will be getting?

Point is... tripods costs this high because they can charge it and people will pay it. Not necessarily because of production costs or that's how much the technology is truly worth. Prices can drop not just because it's cheaper to make, technology changes, etc., but also because there's less gouging per individual.

So like Red & Viewfactor, someone in the tripod industry will catch on to the Red revolution and do the same. Then they will have a swarm of customers.

I hope it comes soon.

just my 2 cents.

[Thomas Koch]

I've had Amvona stuff a lot (Tripod Legs for $50) Backdrop stands, etc. ALL o their stuff CRAP. My tripod legs broke. There was not real spreader, just some metal bars that didn't lock. I put a Vinten head on it though, so the heads I hav are good, although both of them are too small for the RED, which means, my new Legs (75mm bowl) won't last past June.

I'll sell them with my HVX though when my number comes up.

[Eddie]

The peculiar thing about a rental-based economy, is that the manufacturer as well as the rental house have an interest in astronomical pricing.
6k for a ff... i´ll take a car instead!

I have updated the first post with some of the tripod and lens suggestions.

[laguun]

The peculiar thing about a rental-based economy, is that the manufacturer as well as the rental house have an interest in astronomical pricing.
6k for a ff... i´ll take a car instead!

I have updated the first post with some of the tripod and lens suggestions.

lots of truth in you statement, but not true for -all- rental houses.
we always try to offer a -money doesnt matter- and a -pragmatic- package for our clients.

and the pragmatic systems have become pretty good meanwhile.

[Eddie]

Thats a very good bussiness approach laguun... and your enthusiasm on this forum back-up the words... "Mr. Gorbatchov... tear down this wall!"

By the way, I have noticed that some rental houses and postproduction offices are offering a fast conversion from redcode to any format for a small fee. Are you considering a similarservice?

On a sidenote, I have placed the HP blackbird 002 as the Uncle Scrooge PC, but it is based on reviews, not thourough research. I know that you have been diving into the PC side of things, and wondered if you would care to chime in on the choices regarding powerful "Bang-for-Buck" PCs

Viele Grüsse
Eddie

[Michael Stanmore]

I like the look of the 526...

I have a little more cash to spend than that... So I guess the sweet spot for me is about the $2500US mark...$3000 at the most (if I eat rice for a few weeks)

And it's gotta be able to handle a full red rig... I don't have any silly Angenieux lenses with a front the size of a dinner plate... But I will have an LCD... mostly just shooting on compact flash, but we'll have a drive and will want to use it sometimes... we'll most likely have a viewfactor studios rig of their matte box and a 3 motor kit once the pro follow focus is ready... I'll have to bring my scales with me to NAB and figure out what I'm dealing with.

So i'll probably have to find a second hand job that can handle the workload.

[laguun]

Thats a very good bussiness approach laguun... and your enthusiasm on this forum back-up the words... "Mr. Gorbatchov... tear down this wall!"

Thank you very much!



By the way, I have noticed that some rental houses and postproduction offices are offering a fast conversion from redcode to any format for a small fee. Are you considering a similarservice?

Yes, we do offer such services.
Among other formats, we offer redcode to:
HDCAM (really inexpensive)
HDCAM SR
BLURAY
D-BETA and SP
DV/DVCAM/DVCPRO
and also many fileformats, including dpx, most QT and AVI formats and Avid DNAxHD. We will certainly offer cineform as well, but we are still holding our breath until their red product is out of beta.

We offer to throw up to 64 fast CPUs and several high-speed raids at the job.



On a sidenote, I have placed the HP blackbird 002 as the Uncle Scrooge PC, but it is based on reviews, not thourough research. I know that you have been diving into the PC side of things, and wondered if you would care to chime in on the choices regarding powerful "Bang-for-Buck" PCs

For red, first of all, i would recommend a PC which runs Windows and OSX, in order to be compatible. The developer version of OSX isnt to expensive.

For best bang-for-buck:
Intel Q6600 Quadcore ~180€ (Q9300 once available)
4 GB RAM DDR2-667 ~60€
I965 basing Board ~60-70€ (integrated G-Ethernet, 2 G-Ethernet make sense, on board graphic for pure number crunching also)
case with >400W Power ~40-60€
500 GB Disk ~70€
these components are the sweet spot of the market today.

If you intend to use Redcine, a
GF 8800GT card with 512MB at 150-200€ makes sense.





Viele Grüsse
Eddie
Und liebe grüße aus berlin zurück!

[laguun]

I don't have any silly Angenieux lenses with a front the size of a dinner plate...

how dare you :)
(whispers to the rack behind him: "You didnt hear that, ladies...")

[Eddie]

Good one myktyl...

Since 3K (good for 4/3 finishing) is now an option and birger is offering a fourthirds mount some very cheap and very lightweight lenses are appearing on the horizon with very small front sizes and prices... 4/3s (http://www.four-thirds.org/en/products/lense.html)

the 4/3s leicas and the Olympus 14-35mm and 35-100mm f/2.0 (!) seems very interesting... and saves you alot of time in the gym.

Some people argue that the new 4/3s leicas doesn´t measure up... I´ll let you be the judge, but for my purposes it looks satisfactory. LINK (http://www.flickr.com/groups/l-x025/pool/show/)

[Eddie]

Thank you for the suggestions Laguun, I have updated the threadstarter accordingly...

[Gunleik Groven]

edit


wrong response to wrong thread...

[Petr Dvorak]

I think than you can built own very good basic PC with quad CPu and 4GB ram for about $ 1200,- (without soft and OS)

[Robert P. Hogue]

The Manfrotto 526 head is good for up to 35lbs, which is probably adequate for most configurations.


This thread is intended for all the broke-ass indies who wants to cut all corners in the (untill recently) rental-based economy of 35mm motion picture acquisition...
I´ll add all the cheap suggestions and corrections you have.
And don´t get anal around the brands (Apart from RED Digital... off course)

Here is what I´ll get from RED (Paid with pleasure and a big thank you)
RedOne Body, Basic Production pack, LCD + Cable, PowerPack, 2 Red Drives, CF-Module
Subtotal 25.000$

From here on it´s all about being cheap, and off course wait untill everything has been tested.

Mount: Birger/canon

Lenses:
Tokina: 11-16mm f/2.8 (http://www.tokina.co.jp/atx/atx116pro-dx.html) , 900$
Sigma: 18-50mm f/2.8 (http://www.amazon.com/Sigma-18-50mm-Aspherical-Digital-Cameras/dp/B000JDJJ82/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1205953714&sr=1-8) An alternative would be the Canon EF-S 17-55mmf/2.8 IS (http://www.amazon.com/Canon-EF-S-17-55mm-Lens-Cameras/dp/B000EW8074). I am especially keen on the image stabilisation, because it gives you an improved performance at 1/25 sec shutter and mights save you some $$$$ on lighting.
Sigma: 50-150mm f/2.8 (http://www.amazon.com/Sigma-50-150mm-Canon-Digital-Cameras/dp/B001047YXG/ref=dp_ob_title) Alternative: Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 IS (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-70-200mm-2-8-USM-Lens/dp/B0000C4G4W)
Sigma: 30mm f/1.4 (http://www.amazon.com/Sigma-30mm-Nikon-Digital-Cameras/dp/B0007U0H06/ref=sr_1_33?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1205953821&sr=1-33)
Sigma: 50mm f/1.4 (http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3353&navigator=8)

ALTERNATIVE:

Since 3K (good for 4/3 finishing) is now an option and birger is offering a fourthirds mount some very cheap and very lightweight lenses are appearing on the horizon with small front sizes and prices... 4/3s (http://www.four-thirds.org/en/products/lense.html)

the 4/3s leicas i.e 25mm 1.4 and the Olympus 14-35mm and 35-100mm f/2.0 (!) seems very interesting... and also saves you alot $$$ in the gym.

Some people argue that the new 4/3s leicas doesn´t measure up... I´ll let you be the judge, but for my purposes it looks satisfactory. LINK (http://www.flickr.com/groups/l-x025/pool/show/)

Vari NDs (http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html)

PC: HP Blackbird 002 (http://h20435.www2.hp.com/) 2400$
Alternative:
Intel Q6600 Quadcore ~180€ (Q9300 once available)
4 GB RAM DDR2-667 ~60€
I965 basing Board ~60-70€ (integrated G-Ethernet, 2 G-Ethernet make sense, on board graphic for pure number crunching also)
case with >400W Power ~40-60€
500 GB Disk ~70€
these components are the sweet spot of the market today.
If you intend to use Redcine, a
GF 8800GT card with 512MB at 150-200€ makes sense. (hat tip: Laguun)


Software: ???

Tripod: ??? . For light setups (still lenses) the manfrotto 526 fluid head, should be fully functional, and might be the best solution. Also The Dynatran seems like a worthwhile option, cheap as hell anyway... (Eugene will be getting some first hand experience with it soon)
(Candidates: Arrow 55, Daiwa 15, Dynatran AT-9905H, Manfrotto 526, O´connor 50 )

CF- Cards: ??? (rumours about problems with third party cards)

Mics: ???

Extra RAM: ???

Exstra HDs: ???

EXT soundrecorder: ???

[Eddie]

Thats great news Borzoi... I think the manfrotto might be a winner.

[Phil McCarty]

Scrooge MAC:

Last december I built my very first Hackintosh, which is basically a way to install Tiger (or Leopard) on PC hardware.

A quadcore (Intel q6600) 2.6ghz, 2.4ghz, 4gigs of ram, 2 x 500gig HD, GEForce 7800GT.

This cost me a little over $900. FCP works. Logic Audio. All the Adobe stuff. It's nearly perfect. I -just- ran an xBench (with things running). Without doing the disk tests, my machine comes in a 208. The average Mac Pro clocks 156. I'm happy.

The OS install has one minor glitch (it doesn't sleep the way I'd like, and when I reboot, i have to unplug and re-plug the keyboard), but I simply didn't want to spend $3000 at Apple in order to not-re-plug. My laziness has bounds.

Here's a link to my WishList, but it's 4 months old. I'm pretty sure there are people building 8 cores, and running Leopard, so I would check the forums (Link also to follow).



http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/wishlist/PublicWishDetail.asp?WishListNumber=6795732
http://forum.insanelymac.com/

p.s. Even though you can download the images from places like pirate bay, I suggest you keep your karma intact and go ahead and buy leopard from Apple. It's a great operating system and totally worth the $130 they're asking for it.

[Eddie]

Thats a great idea Gville TV. I have added it to the thread starter. Now all we need is some kind of Linux-option, then everybody can have it their way.
What kind of HDs did you choose?

[Phil McCarty]

Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST3500320AS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM, $109.

I haven't tried editing any RED footage yet, but HD from an HVX is effortless. I'm sure they are fast enough.



Thats a great idea Gville TV. I have added it to the thread starter. Now all we need is some kind of Linux-option, then everybody can have it their way.
What kind of HDs did you choose?

[Florian Stadler]

...and along came the 10lb 18-85 Red Zoom and a 2000$ savings suddenly turned into a 3000$ waste of money. If you buy a good solid head it might last you 20 years.

[Jason Ing]

what about canon's 24-70L? it'll replace several of those lenses you have on your list and it's an L lens. or maybe list scrooge prime lens and zoom lens options

[Jason Ing]

that hack mac stuff is really interesting. do you know if shake performs on it 100%?

[albert rudnicki]

I am really sorry if I hack the forum, but I am really curios about setting a second station as a OS X on the PC.
What should I get to build a good working system
Thanks for help
Albert

[Eddie]

Yeah. It's unreasonable.

You get what you pay for with tripods. No shortcuts.

jb


What amazes me is that people are *demanding* that someone manufacture a cheap tripod that still performs like a 10K unit.

The camera is the cheapest part of this whole equation. Isn't that revolutionary enough ?

jb


...and along came the 10lb 18-85 Red Zoom and a 2000$ savings suddenly turned into a 3000$ waste of money. If you buy a good solid head it might last you 20 years.

Don´t ruin all the fun boys. Off course you can cut corners, and I guess you would be a fool not to.But again, to each his own.
Whats your pleasure... 10k tripod, 6k FF and a 3k matte box or a second RED?
To my broke-ass cine-fetish is just a new kind of pornsurfing.

[Eddie]

After reading this post (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=180525&postcount=1)

I am more confident that a manfrotto 526 (max load 35.3 lbs) can deliver acceptable results with still lenses. The posted video is recorded with a cartoni focus (max load 22lbs) AND an angeniuex 20-120mm, red drive, rods, cage, etc

[Shawn Booth]

After reading this post (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=180525&postcount=1)

I am more confident that a manfrotto 526 (max load 35.3 lbs) can deliver acceptable results with still lenses. The posted video is recorded with a cartoni focus (max load 22lbs) AND an angeniuex 20-120mm, red drive, rods, cage, etc

But did you read this part of the post?


Those of you already squirming at the idea of the Cartoni, rightfully so. I've tried to make the best of it, but let this be a lesson to the very real need for a capable tripod when using the RED. No matter how I try to cradle the setup, I just can't keep it truly steady.

[Eddie]

Scrooge MIC??? I am leaning towards the NTG-2 300$ but other suggestions are welcome, since RED has an emphasis on capturing raw audio data, with very little adjustments on the fly, the choice of microphone is crucial so if anyone is an audio expert please chime in...

[Steve Sherrick]

Eddie,
The NTG-2 is okay. But I highly recommend this link.

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html

[Brandon Fraley]

i have an NTG 2 and quite like it. excellent mic for the price. its true, more money will get you a better mic.

[Eddie]

Steve - I want one of those Schoeps!...

but... I think might take a Sanken, a one of michael jolys modded oktavas PE (hyper,omni and card) for interiour interviews and then a set of coresounds binaurals, a microtrack version II to go with a coresound 4mic instead ... this seems more like an uncle scrooge sound-kit.

[Eddie]

It is looking good for the Tokina set-up! now even the renowned nikonian ken rockwell has surrendered to the 116atx pro. check his review here (http://www.kenrockwell.com/tokina/11-16mm.htm)

[John V]

Im gonna say there is a big difference between "cheap as in cost" and "cheap as in quality"

[Eddie]

I have tried to contact the tokina customer center some months ago in order to get further specifications on the AF mechanism... number of discrete steps on the different lenses, but they never mailed me back. If anyone has stumbled upon some information on the focus motor of the tokinas, please refer...
A second crucial question is the noise. Some tokinas are said to be a bit more noisy when focussing. But it remains to be seen wether or not this is an issue with the much slower focussing used through the birger mount.

What I like about the tokinas is their contrast, and I find they are almost identical in tone compaired to the new nikons. Also they are based on some angeniuex patents which might give them less breathing problems. who knows?

[johannperry]

I spent 10000usd on a Ronford fluid head and tripod 12 years ago and since then it has been around the world several times in Jungle, Desert, at sea, you name it. Never skipped a beat once, just beautiful fluid moves always. Last month it was charged by a two ton bull in brazil, flipped 10 ft in the air and still worked perfectly for the rest of the shoot. You may have to sometimes put quite a lot of cash down for a good product, but it will usually look after you and add value to your work in many ways.
Saving money should not always be your first consideration when looking to do the best possible work.

[Eddie]

When you are on a budget and need a lot of expensive gear, saving money is absolutely neccesary in order to do the best possible work!
For instance your tripod compared to the dynatran, might afford a whole sound recording setup, or a bit of the crucially important HMI (I have heard that the old tungstens cause trouble, when it comes to red)... And not all cameramen gets attacked by bulls or live in the jungles... they just slowly pan and tilt with their tripod.

But if you are not interested in saving a buck here and there, thats all fine a lot of people ain´t... I guess thats the reason there is a gazillion other threads discussing high-quality gear... I can´t afford :-)

[Miro]

Scrooge MAC:

Last december I built my very first Hackintosh, which is basically a way to install Tiger (or Leopard) on PC hardware.

A quadcore (Intel q6600) 2.6ghz, 2.4ghz, 4gigs of ram, 2 x 500gig HD, GEForce 7800GT.

This cost me a little over $900. FCP works. Logic Audio. All the Adobe stuff. It's nearly perfect. I -just- ran an xBench (with things running). Without doing the disk tests, my machine comes in a 208. The average Mac Pro clocks 156. I'm happy.

The OS install has one minor glitch (it doesn't sleep the way I'd like, and when I reboot, i have to unplug and re-plug the keyboard), but I simply didn't want to spend $3000 at Apple in order to not-re-plug. My laziness has bounds.

Here's a link to my WishList, but it's 4 months old. I'm pretty sure there are people building 8 cores, and running Leopard, so I would check the forums (Link also to follow).



http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/wishlist/PublicWishDetail.asp?WishListNumber=6795732
http://forum.insanelymac.com/

p.s. Even though you can download the images from places like pirate bay, I suggest you keep your karma intact and go ahead and buy leopard from Apple. It's a great operating system and totally worth the $130 they're asking for it.

Hi there,

I have a similar setup, do you have a Kona card in your setup?

Many thanks,
Miro

[Jeff Deveraux]

Looking for a different monitor mounting option? I just got one of these for my hand held config so that I can mount the LCD lower onto the rails. The screw is 1/4-20.

http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(r31wlpqoapi0rxzdy0gi0cur)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=998019857

[Larry McKee]

I just ordered one of these. http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp?cat=DVPROD&subcat=&prodclass=TRIPODS&baseitem=BG-386B&search=0&off=0&showreturn=0

Not as cheap as Jeff's, but I think it will work.

[Jeff Deveraux]

I just ordered one of these. http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp?cat=DVPROD&subcat=&prodclass=TRIPODS&baseitem=BG-386B&search=0&off=0&showreturn=0

Not as cheap as Jeff's, but I think it will work.

Cheap enough. I think I'll get one of those too.

[Jean Wallez]

I tried it(Nanoclamp) but it slip around the rod(15mm), even for the LCD with arm it is not safe; it is safe for hanging something(5 Kg) but not for others directions.

[Eddie]

Looking for a different monitor mounting option? I just got one of these for my hand held config so that I can mount the LCD lower onto the rails. The screw is 1/4-20.

http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(r31wlpqoapi0rxzdy0gi0cur)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=998019857

I have added i to the thread starter!

Thats a great product jeff, I have now contacted the dealer and told him that i´ll be setting up a group purchase here on reduser. He told me we could get a 50 percent discount! :ohmy:

[Jeff Deveraux]

I have added i to the thread starter!

Thats a great product jeff, I have now contacted the dealer and told him that i´ll be setting up a group purchase here on reduser. He told me we could get a 50 percent discount! :ohmy:

You can get these anywhere they sell electrical supply. I got mine at Home Depot. Unless shipping is free, it's probably cheaper to buy locally.

Also, I use mine with steel rods. They may damage carbon fiber or aluminium rods. I don't know.

[Jeff Deveraux]

I tried it(Nanoclamp) but it slip around the rod(15mm), even for the LCD with arm it is not safe; it is safe for hanging something(5 Kg) but not for others directions.

Too bad, it looked like it could work.

[Eddie]

Does anybody outthere have any eperience with using 5000K "grow lights" or something similar to this one (http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/page/001/PROD/AQMH/MH1000W-U-5K). especially for lifting the shadows in an interview setting . Since build 16 it seems that shooting iso 800 is gonna be more than acceptabel... especially when scaling to SD for finishing.
It would be good to know the cheap workarounds. Especially since redone offers the option of adjusting the white balance afterwords. This means that a certain variance in the colortemperature from one bulb to the other is no longer the end of the world, as long as you got enough of that blue light comming. And since I would rather not cough up 6k for this one, it would be great to grab one of these "dope-growing" garden bulbs instead.
Any advice is much appreciated

[Larry McKee]

I tried it(Nanoclamp) but it slip around the rod(15mm), even for the LCD with arm it is not safe; it is safe for hanging something(5 Kg) but not for others directions.

The item description says it ranges from .51 inches to 1.38 inches. 15mm may be too close to the minimum to get a tight grip. I'll let you know how well it works on 19mm rods.

[Jeff Deveraux]

Just an update on the ground clamp (rail clamp) I posted about earlier. The metal it is made of (zinc) is pretty soft. It lasted me the weekend before the threads stripped. There are brass and copper ones out on the market though.

[Shawn R]

Someone mentioned a little while ago that the Nano clamp was no good for rods. That is right, but it is perfect for the Long Valley Top Handle. I cut a piece of aluminum to replace the steel backing on the Red Battery mount. I then ran a bolt from it to the Manfrotto Nano Clamp and presto I have a easy on - easy off setup. The whole setup weighs less then the steel plate I took off. The Nano Clamps handle is ratcheting too which is handy.

[Shawn R]

I also use the Red Rock Micro -- Micro Mounts to mount my Carrion. You get 3 Micro Mounts for $110.

I have one on the bottom rod of the Long Valley Light weight front rod setup, and one attached to the Long Valley Top Handle. So it takes all of 10 sec to move it from a low point to a high point.

[Cail Young]

I am especially keen on the image stabilisation, because it gives you an improved performance at 1/25 sec shutter and mights save you some $$$$ on lighting.

Unfortunately unless the Birger does some magic to the stabilisation hardware, it's not really designed for "live" use - it locks the image ASAP rather than doing so smoothly - looks very odd in motion.

[Charles Angus]

Does anybody outthere have any eperience with using 5000K "grow lights" or something similar to this one (http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/page/001/PROD/AQMH/MH1000W-U-5K). especially for lifting the shadows in an interview setting . Since build 16 it seems that shooting iso 800 is gonna be more than acceptabel... especially when scaling to SD for finishing.
It would be good to know the cheap workarounds. Especially since redone offers the option of adjusting the white balance afterwords. This means that a certain variance in the colortemperature from one bulb to the other is no longer the end of the world, as long as you got enough of that blue light comming. And since I would rather not cough up 6k for this one, it would be great to grab one of these "dope-growing" garden bulbs instead.
Any advice is much appreciated

Just because you can adjust WB in post, does not mean you can be undisciplined about colour temperature on set. If all your lights match, then that's perfect. But if there is a colour temperature shift between different lights, that's baked in and can never be removed.