EVF or LCD?

[Ralph Oshiro]

EVF or LCD?

I would like to hear from anyone who has an opinion on whether to invest in either the EVF or the LCD. I know, we all would like both, but since I'm building a bare-bones personal RED package, I'm having a terrible time deciding between the two. I am currently leaning toward the LCD for reasons listed below. But, I suspect that the EVF is going to be just awesome. Oh, yeah, I don't plan on renting my system out, so other commercial considerations aren't relevant to this decision. I'm buying RED only to shoot my personal narrative short/feature films. Here are my current pros and cons, vis-a-vis, my applications.

LCD:

1. I own a Steadicam Flyer with only the stock Tiffen SD LCD monitor.
2. I plan on doing a LOT of vehicle-mounting.
3. I plan on doing a LOT mounting, where I'm not physically able to be near the camera (tight quarters, weird spaces/rigs, etc.).
4. I plan on shooting a LOT of non-ridable dolly shots (skater dollies, ladder dollies, monorail dollies, etc.)
4. I plan on shooting a lot of sticks/dolly shots from a fluid head.
5. A 5.6" display is neat.

EVF:

1. I plan on shooting a LOT of "24"-style handheld. I mean, a LOT.
2. I plan on shooting a lot of sticks/dolly shots from a fluid head.
3. A real neat EVF is neat.

Any input would be appreciated!

[Brook Willard]

My vote would be to go for the EVF right off the bat. Your first two reasons for getting the EVF are the most compelling to me. Your reasons for getting an LCD instead could work with either an LCD or EVF - vehicle mounting where you're away from the camera, for example. You can put the EVF on a 10' cable and simply hold it to your face. If you need an LCD for those "in a pinch" shots, you could always pick up a cheap SD LCD and operate from it. If you've ever operated a film camera from an onboard tap LCD, you know that the quality isn't always a huge issue in a pinch.

Anyhoo. There's my vote.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Thanks, Brook! This one's really killing me! I just "know" that the "right" choice is to pop for the EVF. But the economical choice, the one that serves the most masters is the LCD, no? It's especially difficult, since the LCD is claimed to have, what, 90% of the "feature set" of the EVF? I guess it's the finer points of the EVF quality, over the LCD, that I'm just completely ignorant of.

[Brook Willard]

I come from a film background, so operating with my eye to a viewfinder is second nature to me. I've operated many a shot from an LCD and *sometimes* it's great... Just feel so much more "connected" with my shots when my face is plugged into something. I can tune out everything but what I need to see.

This is but one opinion. In the end, the decision will be up to you. Both the LCD and EVF will be top-notch. It's about how you like to operate, not me.

[tj williams]

I'm waiting until NAB to see how the VF is mountable on the camera and to find out how daylight viewable the LCD is. Hey just sell your car and buy both!

[Ralph Oshiro]

I come from a film background, so operating with my eye to a viewfinder is second nature to me. I've operated many a shot from an LCD and *sometimes* it's great... Just feel so much more "connected" with my shots when my face is plugged into something. I can tune out everything but what I need to see.Yeah, I completely get you, Brook. It's that "cyborg" feel to shooting. Professionally, I shoot 100% with EVFs.

[Larry McKee]

Ralph, I was all up in the air about deciding between the two. Just like you, weighing the pros and cons of each. Then it hit me, screw it buy both. It's just money, and like Doritos, you can make more.

[Hoffmann Films]

I have to say getting a EVF for under $3000 is a deal, thats where my money will go for starters.

[Sam Druckerman]

Ralph, I've been thinking about your dilemma and I've had this image come to me a few times now.

I'm not a PS wiz, so I'll try to describe my idea to you.

A surgeon sometimes wears a heavy type of head band with a light or a magnifying lens attached that flips up and down.

I bet you could rig up EVF to something like that and fly the Red.

I would like to have something like that so I could stand up straight and see no matter how low or high the camera is on a tripod.

Then you wouldn't Need the LCD.

[S. Um]

Ralph,

You're #1148! You're not going to get your camera for another 6 months at the earliest. Don't waste your energy speculating (unless you enjoy it).

Nobody outside of Red has seen the actual LCD or EVF, so what do they know? Just wait until NAB to hear what people have to say. Or drive over to Red headquarters and try them out yourself. Then you'll have some solid data to base your decision on.

[Roberto B]

good advice Sumfun. bravo

[david farland]

They're mainly talking about the relative value of an evf over a lcd monitor of any camera.

tj,
Jarred was using it and said it's very bright in daylight.

cheers,

[donatello b]

i plan to get both for 1st RED - in general i prefer a view finder except for interior sit down interviews ...

2nd RED - EFV ...LCD will depend on how much i use it with 1st RED ...

whatever i prefer is worth the $$

[Steve Gibby]

I've reserved two RED cameras. I shoot a wide mix of cine-style and EFP style, on sticks, hand held, and mount. I use both an EVF and an LCD reqularly in my work, thus I'll buy both of them. I'll buy them both with my first camera so I can maximize the shooting flexibility of that camera. When the second camera is ready, I'll make a decision on what to buy for it, based on my needs to field 2-camera crews for my productions.

[Adrian Correia]

have to have both

1. They are both too good a value, especially if they live up to the billing.
2. You're AC will thank you forever!

[Jaime Vallés]

LCD for me, baby! A 5.4" screen sure is a step up from the DVX flip-out LCD! It's going to be a joy shooting with RED. Now if only I could get good at focusing with Nikkor lenses...

EDIT: I asked this in another thread, but never got an answer. Is it possible to buy the LCD without the 10ft extension?

[MikeCurtis]

I don't recall - are there one or two connectors? Can you run BOTH simultaneously or not?

[Steve Gibby]

I could be wrong, but I believe Stuart English said that there will be two connectors, and the ability to run both the EVF and LCD simultaneously.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies!

Well, mainly I was asking more to the effect, was, what is the basic display technology of an Accuscene EVF (which is similar to the RED EVF, according to Jim)? I mean, I know it's not a CRT, but what is it? LCD, OLED, SED? I read that both the RED EVF and LCD have identical resolutions [EDIT: this is incorrect, the EVF is higher], but is the EVF going to be somehow "better" for focusing, and why (other than having a diopter, which I don't need)? Does the basic display techonlogy used by the EVF have inherently better contrast ratio, for example, over an LCD display?

Let me address some of your specific posts . . .


A surgeon sometimes wears a heavy type of head band with a light or a magnifying lens attached that flips up and down.
I met this camera operator on a set once, and he had one of those cool "cyborg" eye-mounted LED displays hooked up to the tap on his Panaflex. He was operating from a dolly on a stage. He let me try it out, and it was awesome! A couple things I like about this idea . . . I sometimes shoot with my left eye open, and my right eye against the EVF. Gives you a neat "surround view" effect. I've always wanted to buy one of those eye-mounted LED displays for Steadicam work. The left eye could remain open for real-world navigation, but you would never be straining to see the monitor to check your framing. Your framing would always be dead-on accurate with that kind of monitoring. This application is similar to the idea that Sam suggested. Also, I didn't realize that the EVF had the same cabling ability as the LCD. I know the cables come with the LCD, but are they extra for the EVF?

[Ralph Oshiro]

I don't recall - are there one or two connectors? Can you run BOTH simultaneously or not?
I recall someone from RED saying both VF outputs are hot. So, yes, you could run both at the same time.

[Ralph Oshiro]

You're #1148! You're not going to get your camera for another 6 months at the earliest. Don't waste your energy speculating (unless you enjoy it).
I do enjoy it!

[Steve Gibby]

I know both the RED EVF and LCD have identical resolutions

The EVF has been confirmed to be 720p (1280x720). This morning on another forum Jim said that the LCD is WSVGA (1024x600). That's not a significant difference in resolution, plus the LCD screen is obviously much larger.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Well, I've shot with both the F900/3 and the F900/R, using Sony's $10,000 HD color EVF, and that was pretty awesome. If the RED EVF is even better than that, well, that's going to make this a pretty tough decision. I'll quote the Sony specs here, since I wasn't aware of them myself until I started this thread.

The F900 color EVF, the HDWF-C30W, is basically a 960 x 540-pixel resolution (for each color channel of R, G, B), 2.7" color TFT LCD that has a 200:1 contrast ratio (300 cd/m2 brightness spec). Until I looked it up, I had thought it was a CRT. And even though its resolution is only 960 x 540, it's a real pleasure to shoot and focus using that viewfinder.

But, I've never shot with an Accuscene on an F900--has anyone here shot with both the Sony HD EVF, and an Accuscene, that can make some comparative comments?

[Joel Kaye]

LCD vs. EVF

My gut instinct is I'll lean toward the EVF but get both. Ya know - focus and framing happens on almost every shot. ;-) It's hard not to want the best solution available for any every situation.

[Rob Lohman]

I don't recall - are there one or two connectors? Can you run BOTH simultaneously or not?

Yes, that's available

[Mark B.]

Why is Red advertising that their LCD is 720p if it can only show 600p?

[Jannard]

Where do we advertise the LCD to be 720P? We need to fix that. Actual specs are 1024x600.

The LCD is a great solution. The EVF is even better!

Lowkus... please tell me where you saw us advertise the LCD to be 720P.

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

Where do we advertise the LCD to be 720P? We need to fix that. Actual specs are 1024x600.

The LCD is a great solution. The EVF is even better!

Lowkus... please tell me where you saw us advertise the LCD to be 720P.

Jim

Ouch, 720p for the LCD has long been known. That's unfortunate to have that spec slip. Are we still going to be able to get 4k in focus with it?

[Jannard]

OK Shawn... where has it "long been known" from?

And yes, focus on a 5.6" LCD with Graeme's Magic Focus invention will be obtainable from a 1024x600 panel.

Jim

[Jason Roche]

$350, marked down to $1700?


http://www.toshiba.com/taec/news/press_releases/2004/lcdb_04_214.jsp

[Shawn Nelson]

$350, marked down to $1700?


http://www.toshiba.com/taec/news/press_releases/2004/lcdb_04_214.jsp

Oh wow, that is it! Dang, $350 plus a rewire fee gets you the LCD. I wonder what cable the port is on the Red?


OK Shawn... where has it "long been known" from?

And yes, focus on a 5.6" LCD with Graeme's Magic Focus invention will be obtainable from a 1024x600 panel.

Jim

I've been looking at past posts because I thought for sure you or one of the other official Redheads said it, many times over. Peple like Gibby, etc have been saying it for the past year or so and were never corrected. I mean, I know it's not your job to go around correcting all the bad info, but this one was widespread and by many of the top posters.

[Shawn Nelson]

Shoot, I wonder if it was the constant referencing of the EVF being 720p that caused that spec to migrate to the LCD and be repeated so often for over a year.

[Jannard]

I have looked over 100 posts and cannot find where it was said that the LCD was 720P. The output of the camera is 720P, the EVF is 720P but the specs of the LCD have never been posted. I just want to make sure that you don't think the specs slid. They haven't.

Jim

[Jannard]

Shoot, I wonder if it was the constant referencing of the EVF being 720p that caused that spec to migrate to the LCD and be repeated so often for over a year.

I can't find one place where the reference is that the LCD is 720P.

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

Okay, my bad, I can't blame you for what somehow got ground into my mind. Sh*t, I must have just seen 720p so many times for the EVF and automatically equated the two. Well I'm glad I know, I now want to just get a cheap Toshiba LCD of the same specs and buy your EVF.

[Brook Willard]

I held the 720p misconception as well, though I can't figure out where I got it from. It was probably just an assumption from reading 720p EVF so many times.

[Shawn Nelson]

Ahah! Brook too! Now please everyone else who thought that too jump on here and alleviate the "I'm an idiot" sign I have hanging over me

[Ralph Oshiro]

I'm an idiot.

[Shawn Nelson]

...and Ralph, you too thought it was 720p LCD?

I'm amazed that this exact 1024x600 5.6" LCD has been available from Toshiba for over 2 years for only $350.

[Ralph Oshiro]

So, lemme just get this straight . . .

RED EVF resolution: 1280x720
RED 5.6" LCD resolution: 1024x600

Is this correct?

[Ralph Oshiro]

I'm amazed that this exact 1024x600 5.6" LCD has been available from Toshiba for over 2 years for only $350.That's probably not a fair comparison. The Toshiba display is an OEM display product, intended to be sold to manufacturers of other products (like handheld PCs), into which it would need to be "integrated" (power, control, firmware, etc.). It needs plenty of other "stuff" to work, and isn't sold or marketed as a stand-alone, end-user product.

[Ralph Oshiro]

So, lemme just get this straight . . .

RED EVF resolution: 1280x720
RED 5.6" LCD resolution: 1024x600

Is this correct?
By the way, if anyone thinks these numbers are "low," Sony's optional $10,000 color HD EVF for the F900, the HDWF-C30W, is only 960 x 540-pixels, and it looks AWESOME! So, just think how good RED's EVF and LCD are gonna look!

[Alexander Nikishin]

That's probably not a fair comparison. The Toshiba display is an OEM display product, intended to be sold to manufacturers of other products (like handheld PCs), into which it would need to be "integrated" (power, control, firmware, etc.). It needs plenty of other "stuff" to work, and isn't sold or marketed as a stand-alone, end-user product.

Where can you find one of these displays? Any nearby stores?

[Jannard]

...and Ralph, you too thought it was 720p LCD?

I'm amazed that this exact 1024x600 5.6" LCD has been available from Toshiba for over 2 years for only $350.

Shawn... you are killing me. Just because the resolution is the same doesn't mean it is the same panel. Take the Toshiba outside and look at it in the sun. I think you will find a BIG difference between their panel and ours.

If we have pissed you off in some way, I am sorry. I just want it to be for a good reason. But the fact is you are comparing apples to oranges.

Jim

[Ralph Oshiro]

Where can you find one of these displays? Any nearby stores?
You could probably get it here:

http://www.horizontechnology.com/TMDisplay_lcd_LTD056ET0S_7632.htm

But it may be more trouble than it's worth to save up for that minimum order quantity of a 1,000 units! Plus, you'd need some sort of FCC-approved case to house the bare electronics in. You may need an industrial designer to spec the bezel and display mounting hardware for you too. And maybe some buttons to turn it on and off, control firmware, and some other electronic-y, computer-y kinda stuff. Sorry to be such a smart ass, but I thought my post was pretty clear. Watch some other smart ass post a completely assembled version of this product on E-bay somewhere! You were just kidding, right?

[Shawn Nelson]

Shawn... you are killing me. Just because the resolution is the same doesn't mean it is the same panel. Take the Toshiba outside and look at it in the sun. I think you will find a BIG difference between their panel and ours.

If we have pissed you off in some way, I am sorry. I just want it to be for a good reason. But the fact is you are comparing apples to oranges.

Jim

No! I'm fine. Okay, I actually work with displays like this in embedded aviation displays (my glorious day job) and I do know the massive differences you can have in viewing angle, color, etc between LCDs. I was just wondering if you guys had bought this exact LCD and put it in a Red casing.

I'll be there in your booth on Monday of NAB and figure out which one will help me the most. The more I read it seems the price point of the EVF and quality that you achieved is amazing. So I'm glad that this is helping push me more towards that. Though I'll eventually get both.

Sorry to kill yeah there, not my intention Jim.

[Jannard]

Shawn... come find me at the booth and I will give you a personal tour of all we have to offer.

Jim

[Ralph Oshiro]

Just because the resolution is the same doesn't mean it is the same panel. Take the Toshiba outside and look at it in the sun. I think you will find a BIG difference between their panel and ours.
I just can't WAIT to see this thing in the sun! It sounds like the PERFECT Steadicam LCD!!! LCD or EVF . . . AGHHHHHH! This is killing me!!!

[Shawn Nelson]

Shawn... come find me at the booth and I will give you a personal tour of all we have to offer.

Jim

Ah, I'd love that! Do you like whiskey with your cigars? I found an awesome small batch Oregon whiskey. I'll bring you a bottle.

[Jannard]

Sold...

Jim

[Chris Kenny]

Keep in mind that 1024x600 on a 5.6" diagonal screen is over 210 DPI. The computer screen you're reading this post on is probably half of that. 1280x720 rather than 1024x600... the difference probably isn't even visible at reasonable viewing distances.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Ah, I'd love that! Do you like whiskey with your cigars? I found an awesome small batch Oregon whiskey. I'll bring you a bottle.Wow, Shawn--you're IN! Uhhh, hey, Jim! I just found this 4K-resolution OLED from some company in China selling for $400!

[Ralph Oshiro]

Keep in mind that 1024x600 on a 5.6" diagonal screen is over 210 DPI. The computer screen you're reading this post on is probably half of that. 1280x720 rather than 1024x600... the difference probably isn't even visible at reasonable viewing distances.So which are you getting? The LCD, the EVF, or both?

[Jannard]

Ralph... you can look me up, too. Even though your 4K OLED is BS!

Jim

[Ralph Oshiro]

Woo hoo!

[Brook Willard]

Oh yeah, I designed an 8K camera in my spare time. It's pretty sweet. So if you guys want any pointers on how to break that measly 4K 'barrier,' well...

[Jannard]

OK, Brook... join the party!

Jim

[Ralph Oshiro]

Oh yeah, I designed an 8K camera in my spare time. It's pretty sweet. So if you guys want any pointers on how to break that measly 4K 'barrier,' well...Brook, I heard on the internet somewhere that your secret "8K" camera REALLY only does 6.5K.

[Jannard]

All I can say is you guys will be blown away at NAB!

And I want to personally watch your reaction...

Jim

[Brook Willard]

Brook, I heard on the internet somewhere that your secret "8K" camera REALLY only does 6.5K.

Yeah, I read that rumor too. Through my 8K viewfinder.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Keep in mind that 1024x600 on a 5.6" diagonal screen is over 210 DPI. The computer screen you're reading this post on is probably half of that. 1280x720 rather than 1024x600... the difference probably isn't even visible at reasonable viewing distances.
Hey Chris! I didn't "recognize" you here! Nice to see you . . . HERE!

[Brook Willard]

All I can say is you guys will be blown away at NAB!

And I want to personally watch your reaction...

Jim

This is all just killing me. I'll absolutely geek out just seeing what's been discussed... but seeing the rest of whatever we learn at NAB? I'll probably get the shakes. :)

[Ralph Oshiro]

And I want to personally watch your reaction...Can't wait, Jim. Can't f---ing wait!

[Chris Kenny]

So which are you getting? The LCD, the EVF, or both?

I'm undecided. I was leaning toward the EVF, but now I think I'm leaning toward the LCD. I prefer to operate off an LCD (glasses make viewfinders a hassle), and if it's really easily visible in daylight....

[Shawn Nelson]

All I can say is you guys will be blown away at NAB!

And I want to personally watch your reaction...

Jim

Oooh! Sounds cool!! This is exactly why I'm making my first trip to NAB, the classes will be a bonus :-)

[Jannard]

Keep in mind that 1024x600 on a 5.6" diagonal screen is over 210 DPI. The computer screen you're reading this post on is probably half of that. 1280x720 rather than 1024x600... the difference probably isn't even visible at reasonable viewing distances.

Chris... why do you waste your time on the "other" board?

Jim

[Andrew Benz]

All I can say is you guys will be blown away at NAB!

And I want to personally watch your reaction...

Jim

Wish I could be there, but I do get to make money towards the b4 Lens adapter. Jim, I hope I can come to RED to pick up all my gear and get that tour.:biggrin:

[Jannard]

Between the two... the EVF is the winner.

Jim

[Ralph Oshiro]

Oooh! Sounds cool!! This is exactly why I'm making my first trip to NAB . . .First trip?!?!?!?! FIRST TRIP?!?!?!? Holy crap! You're going to go INSANE! You should plan to stay all four days of exhibits, if you can afford to. There's a LOT of stuff to see.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Wish I could be there, but I do get to make money towards the b4 Lens adapter. Jim, I hope I can come to RED to pick up all my gear and get that tour.Who says you won't MAKE money in Vegas? Hint . . . put all your money on RED!

[Ralph Oshiro]

Between the two... the EVF is the winner.Yup. EVF. I know.

[Chris Kenny]

Hey Chris! I didn't "recognize" you here! Nice to see you . . . HERE!

Yeah, hey. I do occasionally, you know, enjoy talking about Red itself, not just arguing with Red's detractors over on Cinematography.com. Heh.

[Jannard]

I have to give them credit for creating the drama that helps marketing... even though they don't know it.

Jim

[Chris Kenny]

Chris... why do you waste your time on the "other" board?


What can I say? Useless Internet debate is an old hobby of mine.

Though perhaps it hasn't been totally useless. I swear the reason I got an A on every political theory paper I wrote in college (it was my major) was all those years of picking apart augments on Usenet.

[Andrew Benz]

Who says you won't MAKE money in Vegas? Hint . . . put all your money on RED!

Oh my brother, all my money is on RED... the new Apple solution... a new hd b4 zoom lens... support gear... and a lighting package. Life has been very kind to me since I am now back on my feet from a bad accident. The timing on it all could not be any better. :devil:

[Ralph Oshiro]

16,956 views of just ONE thread, is an awfully powerful statement about just how much they "have NO interest in RED."

[IAN SUN]

This will be my first trip to NAB too, looking forward to having my mind blown.

Sooo, um Jim, someone told me a Sony XDCAM HD "is the way to go"... I might need a little REDasurance at the RED booth. :wink:

[Ralph Oshiro]

Oh my brother, all my money is on RED... the new Apple solution... a new hd b4 zoom lens... support gear... and a lighting package. Life has been very kind to me since I am now back on my feet from a bad accident. The timing on it all could not be any better.
Sorry, I was only kidding of course! Glad to hear you're doing okay!

[chuck colburn]

[QUOTE=Jannard;19148]I have to give them credit for creating the drama that helps marketing... even though they don't know it.

Jim[/QUOTE

Yeah, right now two of the top four threads are about RED

[Ralph Oshiro]

What can I say? Useless Internet debate is an old hobby of mine.
"Useless?" Are you kidding, Chris? It's been the best entertainment on the internet since YouTube!

[Andrew Benz]

Sorry, I was only kidding of course! Glad to hear you're doing okay!
Hey Ralph no worries, everything was taken as fun and things are becoming great again. This is going to be the greatest year to be a lighting cameraman who works a variety of genres!

[Jarred Land]

you guys are all nuts.

[Jannard]

I think there are more than twice the RED "Replies" on C.com than HVX...

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

you guys are all nuts.

Hey hey now...I resemble that statement :watsup:

[Mark B.]

Where do we advertise the LCD to be 720P? We need to fix that. Actual specs are 1024x600.

The LCD is a great solution. The EVF is even better!

Lowkus... please tell me where you saw us advertise the LCD to be 720P.

Jim

Can't find the thread but I'm 99.999% sure that I've seen 720p mentioned in the past. Maybe it was on a different board, from a year ago, or maybe somebody non-Red had posted the number. Maybe I'm remembering specs for the EVF instead of LCD... blame it on all the three-letter acronyms floating around.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Sooo, um Jim, someone told me a Sony XDCAM HD "is the way to go"... I might need a little REDasurance at the RED booth.I know you directed your question to Jim, but if I may butt in . . . It's apples and oranges. Different products, different markets. FWIW, here's my take on XDCAM . . . Major broadcasters appear to be waiting for the 2/3" XDCAM HD cameras to come out this NAB. CBS net news and O&Os have already committed to the lower-cost 1/2" XDCAM HD cameras. ABC was going to go with Infinity, but later backed out of the deal, and are apparently in a wait-and-see mode. NBC hasn't seemed to have decided on anything yet either. If you work news, XDCAM HD (1/2" or 2/3") may likely become the new "Betacam" of ENG, and as a rental camera, those in ENG markets may do very well with XDCAM HD rental stock in their inventory.

RED is something different altogether. RED isn't a replacement for ENG XDCAM HD cameras, it's an F900-killer. My theory is . . . every show that currently shoots with F900s, may eventually want to take a look at RED. Especially the one-hour dramas. Every show that currently shoots 35mm, but is under pressure from the producer/distributor to move to "HD" acquisition instead, may also be prime candidates for RED. So, different products, different markets, different applications.

[Chris Kenny]

"Useless?" Are you kidding, Chris? It's been the best entertainment on the internet since YouTube!

I suppose it's reassuring that I'm not the only one who derives entertainment from such inanity.

[Ralph Oshiro]

you guys are all nuts.You got me started on this whole "RED thing" Jarred. It's all YOUR fault.

[Jannard]

Who is having fun here?

Jim

[Brook Willard]

My call time is 5:30 tomorrow and I'm still up. Some nights this place is way too much fun.

What other tidbits can we weasel out of you tonight? :)

[Ralph Oshiro]

GO TO SLEEP, BROOK! Who are you, me?

[Ralph Oshiro]

Yes, fun! I'm enjoying the crap outta this!

[Brook Willard]

Alright, alright. Try not to have too much fun without me.

[IAN SUN]

I know you directed your question to Jim, but if I may butt in . . . It's apples and oranges. Different products, different markets. FWIW, here's my take on XDCAM . . . Major broadcasters appear to be waiting for the 2/3" XDCAM HD cameras to come out this NAB. CBS net news and O&Os have already committed to the lower-cost 1/2" XDCAM HD cameras. ABC was going to go with Infinity, but later backed out of the deal, and are apparently in a wait-and-see mode. NBC hasn't seemed to have decided on anything yet either. If you work news, XDCAM HD (1/2" or 2/3") may likely become the new "Betacam" of ENG, and as a rental camera, those in ENG markets may do very well with XDCAM HD rental stock in their inventory.

RED is something different altogether. RED isn't a replacement for ENG XDCAM HD cameras, it's an F900-killer. My theory is . . . every show that currently shoots with F900s, may eventually want to take a look at RED. Especially the one-hour dramas. Every show that currently shoots 35mm, but is under pressure from the producer/distributor to move to "HD" acquisition instead, may also be prime candidates for RED. So, different products, different markets, different applications.

Yeah Ralph, I know. I'm just trying to get an invite to Jim's RED Booth tour party.

[Shawn Nelson]

Who is having fun here?

Jim

When your day job is software engineering in aviation, this is Disneyland!

Must get Red to make movies to get out! You're like the guy who bakes the cake with the knife in it to help the prisoners on the inside :help:

Oh, and please share with us your time machine so NAB gets here faster.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Yeah Ralph, I know. I'm just trying to get an invite to Jim's RED Booth tour party.Oh, sorry, man. Didn't mean to f--k up your thing for ya.

[Jarred Land]

You got me started on this whole "RED thing" Jarred. It's all YOUR fault.

Dont worry.. I knew Red was gonna bring me down from day one so im just taking you all down with me :)

buckle up.

[IAN SUN]

Oh, sorry, man. Didn't mean to f--k up your thing for ya.

It's all good Ralph. Like you I'm sitting north of a grand on both my REDservations. Won't be seeing (my) RED for a while yet, so I'm going to Vegas to taste as much RED meat as possible.

[Greg Voevodsky]

I guess Im a day late to the party. But I decided to goto NAB - $500 bucks for roundtrip airfair and Hilton Hotel for 1 night... but I think its worth it. RED, I believe will make a lot of GREEN for us and them -plus a lot of people GREEN with NV. :-) Thanks again Jim! Ford and Disney are making some room in History.

[Emanuel A.]

Oh my brother, all my money is on RED... the new Apple solution... a new hd b4 zoom lens... support gear... and a lighting package. Life has been very kind to me since I am now back on my feet from a bad accident. The timing on it all could not be any better. :devil:Nevertheless, you have the support of new but sincere friends here.

Cheers :wink:
Emanuel & Jo

EDIT -- Even @PC_side vs. yours. But because we're two we count twice. :)

[Steve Gibby]

:innocent: ...nice weather we're having... :whistling:

Ah...I'm one of the dudes guilty of the "720p LCD" assumption!

Man...it feel so good to fess up on that! A few months ago when it was posted by Stuart on another site that the LCD would be an "HD LCD", and he also posted here that the HDMI would output 720p, and that the EVF would be 720p, I jumped to the conclusion that the LCD would be 720p, and posted "720p LCD" on DVX USER RED Forum and here on RED User. My bad!

To my credit, on Post #22 of this thread, after seeing Jim's mention that the LCD was WSVGA on another site, I posted the correct info for the LCD resolution.

Sorry to steer anyone wrong! Anyone who still thinks "Gibby has all the answers" now knows the truth. The truth is...even my wife doesn't believe I have all the answers! (or should I say especially doesn't believe!)

If you promise not to keelhaul me or make me walk the plank, I promise to never be wrong again...(he he)

----------------------

BTW - I'm with Chris Kenny on the difference between 1280x720 and 1024x600 being negligible in field use. There are so many other factors involved with a good LCD besides resolution data. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm buying both the EVF and LCD with my first camera, then I'll decide what I want with the second camera. I need both the EVF and LCD for the variety of work I do...

[Erik Bianchi]

Do I have to have a RED reserved to buy either an LCD or EVF or can I just buy an EVF and put it in a shrine to worship?

[Gunleik Groven]

Worship'ing allowed.
But line up -;)

G

[Andrew Benz]

Nevertheless, you have the support of new but sincere friends here.

Cheers :wink:
Emanuel & Jo

EDIT -- Even @PC_side vs. yours. But because we're two we count twice. :)

It is having the support of new friends like you, Jo and people like Gibby that really bolsters my spirit and makes me work harder.:biggrin: Having the RED at the end of the tunnel is insane. Lately, I have all the work that I can handle and my RED system is fully paid for... now I am working for lenses!:devil:

BTW, Ralph get the EVF- then the LCD. The advantages of using the EVF when fully revealed should be mind blowing and allow all of us to take their craft to another level.

Cheers everyone and thank you for all the support and PM's, it all means alot.

Andrew Benz

[Finner]

I would like to buy the evf and just run a cheap lcd for my 1st. Asst. I believe I remember hearing the lcd ports were propritary. Is this correct or can a person run any lcd off of it? I may be way off here as I have not researched lcd's and there may not be a cheaper option?

Can anyone help me with these questions?

[Steve Gibby]

I believe Stuart said the EVF and LCD ports are proprietary...

Nothing would stop you from going from the HD-SDI outs through a converter to an outboard LCD of any make, although going that route you wouldn't get all the key info from the camera that the proprietary bus gives you.

(P.S Finner - on another subject, check out the new EFP/ENG forum they put up)

[Finner]

I believe Stuart said the EVF and LCD ports are proprietary...

Nothing would stop you from going from the HD-SDI outs through a converter to an outboard LCD of any make, although going that route you wouldn't get all the key info from the camera that the proprietary bus gives you.

(P.S Finner - on another subject, check out the new EFP/ENG forum they put up)

The camera info is the dilema Gibby. This is all info I would want my 1st to have access to. port adapter maybe? Thing is I don't think I really need the high end LCD for the work I do but maybe I will not be able to find a much cheaper option?

Checked the efp/eng site I bet a lot of you guys are stoked about it.

By the way Gibby did you sign up for the presentation I e-mailed you, or do you not have the time for it?

[Steve Gibby]

No time...just at NAB on Monday and Tuesday. Totally bummed...wanted to go to that presentation. Thanks anyway...

I'd figure out a way to squeek out the funds to also get the RED LCD if you need the data for your 1st...

[Obin Olson]

I don't care what they say, you can't shoot a good image in direct sunlight with any LCD screen, EVF is the way to go 100%, then go get yourself a cheap 720p computer lcd monitor and hook it to the hdmi out, or get yourself a nice 7inch 800x480 LCD use a cheap conversion box and run that as your monitor, they cost about $300 and the converter box runs about $100

[Jaime Vallés]

If direct sunlight is that bad, just use a hood.

I'd love to get the EVF, but it's $3K vs $1700. I need the savings for some other accessories. LCD will work just fine for now.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Now . . . I thinkin' the EVF is the way to go. But then I still need some sort of LCD monitoring option for my Steadicam!

[Ralph Oshiro]

BTW, Ralph get the EVF- then the LCD. The advantages of using the EVF when fully revealed should be mind blowing and allow all of us to take their craft to another level.Yeah . . . the more I think about it, the more I think the EVF is definitely the way to go.

[Shawn Nelson]

Yeah . . . the more I think about it, the more I think the EVF is definitely the way to go.

My thoughts too

[Ralph Oshiro]

I don't care what they say, you can't shoot a good image in direct sunlight with any LCD screen, EVF is the way to go 100%, then go get yourself a cheap 720p computer lcd monitor and hook it to the hdmi out . . .Hmmm . . . I guess that would solve my Steadicam monitoring needs. Just need to find one that's REAL bright!

[Ralph Oshiro]

Yeah . . . the more I think about it, the more I think the EVF is definitely the way to go.
But, then again . . . that BIG 5.6" super-bright RED LCD sure would be nice, too . . .

[Ralph Oshiro]

DAMN! We NEED both, don't we?

[Gunleik Groven]

Think so...

Gunleik

[Adrian T.]

I can't find one place where the reference is that the LCD is 720P.

Jim

I've found the place:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5827&postcount=22


More on REDFLASH and confirmation of a few things:

[...]

To clear up any potential confusion: the LCD is not onboard - it can be mounted anywhere on the body or on any accessories within cable reach. We know it's 720p, presumably 8-bit. This LCD can display the image or image/camera data [think waveform monitor, histogram, capture settings, frame rate, shutter angle, etc].

[...]

[edit:]
So, the new confirmed list:

RED ONE camera body
720p LCD
RED FLASH interface no media included

And you answered, Jim:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5831&postcount=23


We will clarify all details soon... but a couple of corrections. The shipping package will NOT include the RAW optical port. That will be an option (we don't think many will actually use it). The onboard RED FLASH drive WILL be included as part of the standard package (but not the media). The media will be a bargain (IMHO).

Jim

You corrected Brooks in saying that the RAW optical port is part of the base package. But you didn't correct him in saying that the LCD is 720P. That's why we all took it for a fact.

What's more, you said that the RED FLASH drive is included in the base package. And now it's not... :huh:

Sorry, I don't want to be nitpicking. But I just needed to know why I also believed that the LCD was 720P. :bleh:

[Anders Holck]

I must admit that I also assumed the LCD would be 720p based on a few threads where Red employees where replying to threads where the 720p specs were mentioned without correcting it.

I just found a few to prove to myself I wasn't crazy:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=37
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=378
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=959
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=933

Especially this thread is amusing although no Red's where involved:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=96


Well, it's still higher resolution than most 5.6" screens, daylight viewable and has a high quality DVI connection.

[Brook Willard]

Oh, come on, now it's my fault? ;)

I have stated that it was a 720p LCD a few times... because I believed it to be [and I'd never heard otherwise]. So for that, I apologize for leading folks astray.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch . . .

[Alexander Nikishin]

Oh, come on, now it's my fault? ;)

I have stated that it was a 720p LCD a few times... because I believed it to be [and I'd never heard otherwise]. So for that, I apologize for leading folks astray.

You should be shamed of yourself Mr. Willard! :poster_stupid:

All kidding aside, I believe everyone thought it was 720p including myself and grandmother.

I still have faith that it will be of capable quality to monitor my image with the Redeye focus assist.

[Ralph Oshiro]

I think I remember my mom saying she thought it was 720p also.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Damnit! Here's how it's going to go down, folks . . . I'm gonna blow my $2,500 reservation credit towards that bitchin' RED EVF (remember, I was PRAYING that the reservation-holders' surprise was gonna be a free EVF?). Then a month later, I'll be like, "Aw, crap . . . what's another $1,700 anyway?"

[Ralph Oshiro]

Then again, that sure is a nifty LCD for $1,700! So, maybe I start out with the LCD, and . . .

[Ralph Oshiro]

Oh yeah, and it's ALL Brook's fault!

[Jim Arthurs]

Ralph, it's easy. GET THEM BOTH!!! It's just money, and what use is money if not to buy shiny high tech viewfinders, eh?

Like you, I can't decide between them. I'm sure at NAB it will be easier to judge their relative merits, but I'm pretty sure the end result will be the same... I'll want them both, so I've resigned myself to that fact and have great Karmatic peace... er something like that...

[Michael Hastings]

Brook:

I am one of the ones that you responded to and when I repeated asking to clarify the specific native resolution (the vast majority of LCDs have native resolution lower than the highest resolution signal they can accept.) The reply again was simply "720p". Now I find out that it isn't but I have searched back through several pages of this thread and can't find out what it is. So two questions 1) what is the native resolution and my apologies if it is repetitive, and 2) couldn't some of this stuff be published on the RED website - they can just put that all specifications subject to change to handle CYA - but it would be nice to know at least the latest thinking without having to search through hundreds of posts?




Oh, come on, now it's my fault? ;)

I have stated that it was a 720p LCD a few times... because I believed it to be [and I'd never heard otherwise]. So for that, I apologize for leading folks astray.

[Anders Holck]

1) The panel is 1024x600.

[Michael Hastings]

Sorry: I meant this to go on the other thread where Jim asked the question.

Jim:

Here is the series of LCD resolution questions where I asked, was answered, and pressed to confirm actual pixel resolution, and it was repeated as 720p. I included the whole post in which I asked just to show that I'm not bitching about any of it - I am just looking for information and since I talk about this stuff to other people who consider me somewhat of an expert I like to be sure of my facts. I know Brook doesn't speak directly for RED but on these questions where they give definite responses we figure they are at least wired into the source.

As a manufacturer myself I fully appreciate the headaches involved in this development project, so take this purely as a suggestion not a gripe. Maybe it is time to start fleshing out the basic specs of some of these components on the RED website, with the usual disclaimer that all specifications are subject to change without notice. At least we could have a central place to get the latest RED thinking on these things without having to search the threads and maybe get incorrect or outdated info.

3-13-2007, 03:10 PM #30 AquaVideoRed206 This is the post to confirm the 1st response.

Subject: EVF LCD Resolution - Actual 1280x720
"Just to confirm - the LCD itself is actually 1280x720."


03-13-2007, 03:03 PM #27 Brook Willard This is the 1st response.

EVF = 720p

3-13-2007, 03:00 PM #26 AquaVideoRed206 Original post with question:
Jim: I prefer the option of choice. As a manufacturer of underwater video systems where we supply both LCDs and a variety of batteries for our lights, I know you could have given us a cheaper LCD and a cheaper battery and actually kept a few hundred more dollars in your pocket. Both of them would have worked fine but be kind of half-assed compared to the solutions you ended up giving us.

The added option of choice is what really helps. In my case I will eventually have both the EVF and the LCD but initially I need the LCD more than the EVF. Yet the logical thing for you to do if you had to dictate the package would have been to give everybody the EVF and dump the battery idea. (Not sure why you included one in the first place. I have purchased at least 10 high end broadcast cameras from Panasonic, Sony, and Ikegami over the years - and not one of them came with a battery! )

Your accessory credit solution worked out better for me and I suspect for a lot of people that have different needs. Also, anyone that bought two or more, have the option of getting several of the options without spending anything additional.

Question: It probably has been stated elsewhere - but what is the pixel resolution of the LCD?

OK Shawn... where has it "long been known" from?

And yes, focus on a 5.6" LCD with Graeme's Magic Focus invention will be obtainable from a 1024x600 panel.

Jim

[Michael Hastings]

How about we all meet at the roulette wheel Hilton Casino after the 1st day of NAB and all 1500 RED reservationists put $100 on RED - we'll either go down together or hit up the Hilton for $150K.


Who says you won't MAKE money in Vegas? Hint . . . put all your money on RED!

[Ralph Oshiro]

C'mmmmmoooooooooooonnnnnnnnnn sssssssssssssssseeevvvennnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gopher77]

I think I'll go with this version of the EVF, just for the cool factor'http://apollo.occc.edu/mm4/evf%20hack.jpg