Beginners... shoot f8

[Jannard]

If you are new to shooting a full frame 35mm format, you WILL find focusing a challenge. Just as everyone has said. You have a few options. Use Graeme's Magic Focus invention. Or hire a focus puller. Or shoot lots of takes. But the easiest way to start is to shoot at f8 and get used to the program, then work your way down until you get good at this. It won't be long until you are shooting wide open... and hitting focus half the time. :-)

We are having so much fun shooting our prototypes. It is a blast. Right now, the favorite is "Natasha" who has the most upgrades and features enabled. "Boris" is in the lab trying to catch up. "Silk" is on deck.

The biggest surprise to you lucky reservation holders (and 1st RED ONE users) will be the ease of shooting to a drive, the speed of downloading, and the fun of using REDCINE. The results are staggering.

We still have a lot to do before NAB and the camera will not be completely finished (all features enabled). But all of the key features will work and be demonstrated there.

We also are very excited to announce new stuff at NAB. If you can't make it, our website (www.red.com) will have all the news posted the morning of the 1st day.

Jim

[wshultz]

Can't wait to see the new stuff. The irony is that many of us who would normally be spending the money to go to NAB are staying home because we want to put that money toward the camera and accessories. :sad:

[Brook Willard]

Heheh, sounds like a shot went soft today. :)

How much time have you guys been shooting tests/footage vs. plugging away at the camera?

[Zack Birlew]

Will the cameras on display (ie. the ones we can play with) have all the features or are they not all enabled like the first #1-100?

[Mardi_Gras]

Hiya Jim,

I'm guessing rez #s in the mid hundreds will not get their baby until probably the end of the yr, is this right?

[Kristin Stewart]

Hi Jim,

A small question though : for people who will buy one say at NAB (or a little bit later), will you be able to give them a precise date of delivery ?

Thanks,

Kristin

[Michael Schrengohst]

lucky + ease + speed + fun = staggering

Yeah baby!!

[Brook Willard]

Hi Jim,

A small question though : for people who will buy one say at NAB (or a little bit later), will you be able to give them a precise date of delivery ?

Thanks,

Kristin

Since they are currently unable to give precise shipment dates on reservations, I personally doubt that such a date would be available for orders in the near future.

[Jannard]

After a modest start-up in production we expect to get caught up with reservation holders by Sept-Oct. We expect that it will take about two months from initial shipping to enable every feature set. But you will be good to go from serial #1 on with 4K REDCODE RAW, monitoring, record to RED-DRIVE, download and "4K to Anything" in REDCINE. The fun starts soon... :-)

Jim

[Hoffmann Films]

Jim, I have to say that the RED hype is really fun. I can't wait to get my camera, hopefully by Oct. Just in time for the winter season on the North Shore of Oahu.....Can't wait to shoot some epic surfing with my RED

How's the timetable for those RED lens?

[Shawn Nelson]

Hey Jim, any tease info on Graeme's magic focus assist or must I wait until NAB to learn anything? :-)

[S. Um]

We are having so much fun shooting our prototypes. It is a blast. Right now, the favorite is "Natasha" who has the most upgrades and features enabled. "Boris" is in the lab trying to catch up. "Silk" is on deck.

The biggest surprise to you lucky reservation holders (and 1st RED ONE users) will be the ease of shooting to a drive, the speed of downloading, and the fun of using REDCINE. The results are staggering.



It's encouraging to hear words like "ease", "speed", and "fun" when referring to shooting with an actual working Red one. Look forward to seeing the actual cameras and announcements at NAB.

[Rick Darge]

Jim, your bytes of info are like a sugar rush to a candy addict

[Roberto B]

If you are new to shooting a full frame 35mm format, you WILL find focusing a challenge. Just as everyone has said. You have a few options. Use Graeme's Magic Focus invention.

that one me liked..

[Roberto B]

here's why:


Jim, you know how much light it would take for f/8? (rhetorical question). :-)

[Mike the beginner]

Hey Jim, any tease info on Graeme's magic focus assist or must I wait until NAB to learn anything? :-)

He just did shawn:biggrin:


In amidst all the excitement, pressure to deliver and so forth this guy has time to help us newcomers with really good advice.


Now i have to get me a sticker :biggrin:

Mike the beginner

[Alexander Nikishin]

I shot at F8 and my frame's all black, why?

[Barend Onneweer]

Seems to me it would be more cost effective to hire a focus puller than to rent the amount of lighting equipment (and twice the lighting crew) for shooting at F8...

[Moir]

Seems to me it would be more cost effective to hire a focus puller than to rent the amount of lighting equipment (and twice the lighting crew) for shooting at F8...

Unless your lighting equipment comes for free (between dawn and dusk, at least) and you are your crew ;)

[Paolo Tinari]

This post amazes me. I'm costantly looking for shallow dof and now the camera manufacturers advice me it's better i close the iris till i tame the beast.

[Brice Ansel]

This post amazes me. I'm costantly looking for shallow dof and now the camera manufacturers advice me it's better i close the iris till i tame the beast.

UR right That's sound a bit scary, maybe I should go back in the second league and buy a prosumer camcorder. Héhé

[Jim Arthurs]

If you are new to shooting a full frame 35mm format, you WILL find focusing a challenge. Just as everyone has said. You have a few options. Use Graeme's Magic Focus invention. Or hire a focus puller. Or shoot lots of takes.

And how to check those recorded takes in the field to make sure you hit critical focus, with nothing on hand to monitor, except the camera's own EVF/LCD?

Here's my idea... Graeme's Magic Focus to the rescue... for PLAYBACK...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=18531&postcount=41

[Clayton Harper]

And how to check those recorded takes in the field to make sure you hit critical focus, with nothing on hand to monitor, except the camera's own EVF/LCD?

Here's my idea... Graeme's Magic Focus to the rescue... for PLAYBACK...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=18531&postcount=41

Thats a damn good idea, Jim.

[Harmonica]

We are having so much fun shooting our prototypes. It is a blast. Right now, the favorite is "Natasha" who has the most upgrades and features enabled. "Boris" is in the lab trying to catch up.

Prototypes with Russian names... :huh:..... company name is RED........ Jim, you're lucky McCarthy isn't around anymore:wink:

[Jannard]

Graeme's Magic Focus Device will be the choice that makes this easier to deal with... shooting f8 was a bit tongue in cheek as it is often tough to find that much light on a set, but you get the idea. The newcomer to this size format just needs to learn that there is a problem AND there are lots of options to help solve it... did I forget a tape measure or laser rangefinder?

Jim

[Steve Gibby]

This post amazes me. I'm costantly looking for shallow dof and now the camera manufacturers advice me it's better i close the iris till i tame the beast.

Shallow DOF gets a lot of attention, but almost every production of any genre, whether it is cine-style or EFP style, requires a broad range of DOF in shots. Establishing shots and panoramas need deep DOF, medium shots use a lot of medium DOF, and close-ups generally use shallow DOF. Being able to achieve whatever DOF a shot demands is the mark of a professional shooter - whether they are shooting cine-style or EFP style.

Let's consider four more factors:

1) In terms of comparative number of professional productions worldwide each year, the large majority are electronic field production (EFP) - a significantly higher overall number than cine-style productions, including features.

2) I'd suggest that RED One, though obviously designed as a digital cinema camera system, is also designed to be accessorized for extensive EFP production use, and that the ratio of production style use of RED One will reflect the usage noted in #1 above – much more EFP style than cine style.

3) The majority of EFP productions are well lit, in fact shot in outdoor available light, thus apertures between f5.6 and f11 are the norm. F8 is probably the most common aperture for that genre of shooting. Medium to deep DOF is sought for those types of programs and an aperture of f8 achieves that.

4) At apertures of between f5.6 and f11, in tandem with Graeme’s Magic Focus assist, experienced solo shooters should be able to rack their own focus. With practice, beginners will too.

The wider open the aperture, the shallower the DOF, and thus the more difficult critical focus becomes. At wide-open apertures, AC’s and focus pullers will be used extensively. Experienced solo shooters, shooting at wide-open apertures, should still be able to rack focus for more static shots on sticks, but any focus on moving subjects will be extremely tricky (as in nearly impossible) without using a focus puller – and even tricky when using one.

I think Jim’s suggestion of beginners using f8 is a real good suggestion. DOF is medium at f8, thus allowing beginners to get used to RED One before they start opening up the iris for more shallow DOF shots. Expert shooters seeking shallow DOF will obviously be able to work with a wide-open aperture immediately – the workflow will be very familiar to them. Jim is a veteran cinematographer. His f8 advice for beginners with RED One is very good advice indeed. I expect Graeme’s Magic Focus assist to be a key feature of RED One. In tandem with the 720p EVF and WSVGA LCD, I expect the Magic Focus to enable accurate focus. We’ll know soon! At NAB we’ll be able to see it in action…looking forward to that!

[Mardi_Gras]

Jim,

Graeme's device will be one of many add-ons to help complement the magical piece of tech you guys just wrought. I really can't begin to describe the very many features that the RedOne already has that does it for me. Focus pulling, though vital, is only one of many other problems just owning the camera, eases - the workflow for one, kicks ass!

[tj williams]

Gibby another saving grace of RED1 when shooting sports or other fast moving activity for HD or even SD distribution one can shoot with a wider lense thus easing the focus problem and use red cine to cut out the 1080 CU from the 4K frame

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby another saving grace of RED1 when shooting sports or other fast moving activity for HD or even SD distribution one can shoot with a wider lense thus easing the focus problem and use red cine to cut out the 1080 CU from the 4K frame

Excellent points TJ. Wide angle lenses help enable deeper DOF. I'll shoot almost everything in 4k REDCODE RAW, and tweak it with REDCINE.

[JD Holloway]

F8 at 320'ish iso?

250'ish candle if memory serves...

Where's the GAIN button? LOL

And actually, Gibby with "virtually" noiseless Gain, stops can be had electronically and then stopped down for greater DOF and still be "4K'ish".

[donatello b]

F stop example
if shooting 35 mode
25mm lens focused at 10ft F8 = 5ft to infinity in focus
25mm lens foucsed at 10ft F2.8 = 7'5" to 15'4"
lenses wider then 25mm you'll have very good (deep) DoF at all F stops...

longer lenses = less DoF ( shallow focus)
50mm focused at 10ft F8 = 8' to 13'3"
50mm focused at 10 ft F 2.8 = 9'2" to 10'11"

50mm focus at 25ft f8 = 15' to 66'
50mm 25ft F 2.8 = 21" to 29'

100mm 10ft F8= 9'2" to 10'11"
100mm 10ft F2.8 = 9'9" to 10"2"

100mm 25ft F8= 21' to 29'
100 25ft F2.8= 24' to 26'

[Brice Ansel]

4) At apertures of between f5.6 and f11, in tandem with Graeme’s Magic Focus assist, experienced solo shooters should be able to rack their own focus. With practice, beginners will too.
Thanks Gibby, as usual your advice make me feel good and give me more hope. I guess I'm going to train focussing with my doggies for a while. Cheers mate

[jbeale]

I'm curious about these DOF calculations, they assume some particular "circle of confusion" right? It seems that this should be different (smaller) for a 4k image as opposed to lesser formats?

[donatello b]

the figures are from American Cinematographers manual ..based on 35mm format 24mm X 18mm...
they should be viewed as not exact figures but just showing how F8 and F2.8 have different DoF ...

seems to me that if a 25mm is always 25mm on any format then DoF should be the same - what will be different will be the field of view ...

you can have a 4k on a 24x18mm or 2/3" sensor ..
i believe the DoF will be the same if you have a 2/3 sensor that is 4k or 480p/i ?

[roryhinds]

[QUOTE=Jannard;18731modest start-up in production
Jim[/QUOTE]

Hi Jim

When are we likely to hear how many cameras will first be produced in the "modest start-up"

I'm anxious to get my #68 and will be happy to work with firmware updates and provide feedback.

Thanks
Rory

[jbeale]

@donatello: I agree that in some absolute sense the numbers apply to any camera with the 24x18 mm frame size. I'm just thinking that DOF implies drawing some line between "in focus" and "out of focus". If you imagine shooting some scene and viewing it on a display, there are points in that frame that may appear "in focus" at 480p or 720p or 1080p display resolution that you could see are not quite in focus at 4k. If that is true, then the DOF is effectively larger at lower display resolutions, even with the same image from the same camera.

[Graeme Nattress]

Or shoot wide - that helps too as pointed above. It's the combo of long lens and open aperture that causes shallow DOF.

Graeme

[JD Holloway]

Hey Graeme,

any idea how much effective db gain can be applied before being noticed at 2k assuming 4k initial acquisition? How does this translate into effective "stops".

I'm curious about low light work.

James

[Joel Kaye]

seems to me that if a 25mm is always 25mm on any format then DoF should be the same - what will be different will be the field of view ...


That's correct. On a smaller chip 25mm will have a tighter FOV but the same DOF... which is why it takes such a big zoom to get shallow DOF on our 1/3" cameras.

Your DOF chart is what I was going to post. Even at F8 it's nowhere near the DEEP DOF you'd see on an HVX given the same Focal Length.

[Joe Aurili]

F stop example
if shooting 35 mode
25mm lens focused at 10ft F8 = 5ft to infinity in focus
25mm lens foucsed at 10ft F2.8 = 7'5" to 15'4"
lenses wider then 25mm you'll have very good (deep) DoF at all F stops...


Does it matter if that 25mm is from a zoom lens or a prime? So if i'm using the RED zoom at 18mm then focus is no issue?

[Ace]

F8 and be there!

[Joel Kaye]

Does it matter if that 25mm is from a zoom lens or a prime? So if i'm using the RED zoom at 18mm then focus is no issue?

Doesn't matter whether it's zoom or prime. Wide angle lenses like 18mm will be easier to focus because their DOF is deeper. If you're physically close to something you'll still need to be very accurate. Again - DOF charts will tell the tale. Start studying them now so the general measurements are in your head by the time you get your camera.

[donatello b]

"how much effective db gain can be applied "

i was always under impression RED would NOT have any gain settings ???...
you would just under expose ( use higher ASA) and bring up ( make lighter) in post ..
depending on how much you under expose at some point noise would come into image ( when you lighten it)... the amount of noise that one likes/dislikes would be different for each persons ...
based on the Stump test i would not have problem rating the camera at ASA 640 - and probably up to 800 .... 1200 or higher it would depend on the scene/project .... also RED has better data in place today so the Stump test are out dated - soooooooooooo we'll have to wait for new test .. NAB should have some images at different ratings

[Joe Aurili]

Doesn't matter whether it's zoom or prime. Wide angle lenses like 18mm will be easier to focus because their DOF is deeper. If you're physically close to something you'll still need to be very accurate. Again - DOF charts will tell the tale. Start studying them now so the general measurements are in your head by the time you get your camera.

That sounds good to be, because i'm looking to go as wide as possible. And if the target it really close, I should just be able to measure the distance.

[Paris Remillard]

<It's the combo of long lens and open aperture that causes shallow DOF.>

And Focus Distance. How close you are to what you are focused on.

Then there's the argument that given the same framing, the focal length doesn't technically affect DOF. It just changes the characteristics of the image by either stretching or compressing perspective, thus making the background or foreground elements look more out of focus. This argument would state that technically it's only aperture and focus distance that affect DOF.

Here's an article on that:
http://www.bluesky-web.com/dofmyth.htm

[Jeff Kilgroe]

F8 and be there!

I'll do it if you will!


"...OK, everyone. We have clear, sunny skies. Grab the reflectors, we're shooting at high noon!"

Or...

"F8?? How the f@&$ am I supposed to afford the lights and utility bill to shoot at F8??? ...I just spent all my money on the camera!"

[Paolo Tinari]

You right Gibby, shallow dof is not proper everywhere. It's just that deep dof comes natural and the shallow one is very difficult for me to achieve: think that to get it i shoot a reflected image in a spinning glass!
and now, pop, red, it's there.
I say wow.

[Sean]

the figures are from American Cinematographers manual ..based on 35mm format 24mm X 18mm...
they should be viewed as not exact figures but just showing how F8 and F2.8 have different DoF ...

seems to me that if a 25mm is always 25mm on any format then DoF should be the same - what will be different will be the field of view ...

you can have a 4k on a 24x18mm or 2/3" sensor ..
i believe the DoF will be the same if you have a 2/3 sensor that is 4k or 480p/i ?

Given that the Red's sensor size is not exactly the same size as a 35mm frame, what conversion should be used in order to employ the American Cinematographer's DoF measurements? Does using Nikons rather than PL mount lenses affect these measurements?

[Joel Kaye]

In this webcast Rodney Charters ASC/CSC of 24 talks about follow focus on their set.

Right now it's the current episode. Season 2 episode 7. (Episode 6 is part 1 of this interview)

http://www.2nd-unit.tv/

[Stephen Williams]

Given that the Red's sensor size is not exactly the same size as a 35mm frame, what conversion should be used in order to employ the American Cinematographer's DoF measurements? Does using Nikons rather than PL mount lenses affect these measurements?

Hi,

The 35mm DOF charts are a good starting point, HOWEVER a Red or any other digital sensor will have less DOF if your lenses are sharp enough! Film is not flat, a sensor is, there will be less fudge factor.

The mount has no effect on DOF but lens sharpness does. On film Zeiss lenses look sharper than Cooke lenses. This is because they transmit more blue light, Cookes transmit more red light. The red layer of film is less sharp than the blue layer.

Stephen

[Mardi_Gras]

Hi,

... On film Zeiss lenses look sharper than Cooke lenses. This is because they transmit more blue light, Cookes transmit more red light. The red layer of film is less sharp than the blue layer.

Stephen

Does this mean the Cooke lens will appear sharper with a digital sensor such as RedOne's?

[Stephen Williams]

Doesn't matter whether it's zoom or prime. Wide angle lenses like 18mm will be easier to focus because their DOF is deeper. If you're physically close to something you'll still need to be very accurate. Again - DOF charts will tell the tale. Start studying them now so the general measurements are in your head by the time you get your camera.

Hi,

Image magnification & F stop are the 2 things that effect DOF. If the image is the same size on the sensor the DOF is identical regardless of lens focal length.

Shoot people standing up head to toe in screen, then you will find focus pulling easy regardless of lens!

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

Does this mean the Cooke lens will appear sharper with a digital sensor such as RedOne's?

Hi,

Yes, and they will appear to have less DOF than they do on film as a result!

Stephen

[Joel Kaye]

Film is not flat, a sensor is, there will be less fudge factor.

Maybe I'm missing something, but film gets pressed flat when it's exposed. Any curvature in the film will be soft. I don't see where DOF comes into that equation.

One lens maybe be sharper than another so I suppose the sharper lens might give the feeling of greater DOF because more stuff is sharp.

[Mardi_Gras]

Hi,

Yes, and they will appear to have less DOF than they do on film as a result!

Stephen

This is rather confusing... less DOF, yet sharper overall image, how does that compute, pls clarify if you don't mind

[Thom Steinhoff]

Wait, this is the last straw!!!

First no Lens, no microphone, no monitor, no battery, and no hard drive...

Now you tell us that Red won't come with a Red Headed Focus puller?!!

Next thing your going to tell us is that it doesn't come with a DP either!!!

:)

[Stephen Williams]

Maybe I'm missing something, but film gets pressed flat when it's exposed. Any curvature in the film will be soft. I don't see where DOF comes into that equation.

One lens maybe be sharper than another so I suppose the sharper lens might give the feeling of greater DOF because more stuff is sharp.

Hi,

Film is never flat when running, fearly flat maybe!

A sharper lens will show less DOF, not more!

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

This is rather confusing... less DOF, yet sharper overall image, how does that compute, pls clarify if you don't mind

Hi,

If the resoloution is higher then you will see more difference in what is in focus and what is soft. This gives the effect of less DOF.

One of the main reason that on 1/3 chip video cameras have a large DOF. Very little resoloution (nothing is sharp) everything is equally soft!

Stephen

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Wait, this is the last straw!!!

First no Lens, no microphone, no monitor, no battery, and no hard drive...

Now you tell us that Red won't come with a Red Headed Focus puller?!![/quotequote]

Sure it does... He's 46 years old, about 6'4" tall and weights about 260lbs. On the bright side, if you feed him well and treat him right, he can carry your RED and other gear for you. You will also want to wash him regularly because he's known to stink. ...answers to the name "Fergus".

[quote]Next thing your going to tell us is that it doesn't come with a DP either!!!

No DP...

[Chris Kenny]

Maybe I'm missing something, but film gets pressed flat when it's exposed.

Color film stock has multiple layers of emulsion (sensitive to different colors), and the layers themselves, of course, have some thickness.

[Thom Steinhoff]

No DP...

Aaaagghhh!!!! What is this... for professional use?!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yeah, it's as if they expect only DP's and production companies to buy it or something...

[Martin Drew]

Hi,

If the resoloution is higher then you will see more difference in what is in focus and what is soft. This gives the effect of less DOF.

One of the main reason that on 1/3 chip video cameras have a large DOF. Very little resoloution (nothing is sharp) everything is equally soft!

Stephen


The main reason in this case is image magnification rather than pixel density. though it is true that it is unlikely that the glass on a 1/3" chip is going to be proportionately higher resolution that glass for 35mm.

M

[jbeale]

Given that the Red's sensor size is not exactly the same size as a 35mm frame, what conversion should be used in order to employ the American Cinematographer's DoF measurements?

Well, the RED sensor is not exactly the same size as a S35 frame, but it's pretty close!
Red sensor: 24.4 x 13.7 mm (16:9)
S35 frame: 24.89 x 18.66 mm (4:3)
S35 frame: 24.89 x 14.0 mm (16:9 crop)

The difference in size is only 2%, that is a crop factor of 1.02 which is pretty hard to notice. I'd say the sensor size really is S35 for just about all intents and purposes.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The difference in size is only 2%, that is a crop factor of 1.02 which is pretty hard to notice. I'd say the sensor size really is S35 for just about all intents and purposes.

Yeah, but.. (and I may be wrong on this). Those are the physical sensor dimensions. When shooting 4K on RED, you're actually pulling from a 22.2x12.6mm area. To get 24.4x13.7mm, you would have to shoot full 4.5K/2540p through the RAW port.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

If you read the American Cinematographers handbook it states DOF tables are the same regardless of format! The difference between 35mm, S35mm & Red is fairly small in any case.

Stephen

[Mike the beginner]

I wonder if red is going to produce its own DOF chart exclusively for the red sensor. That would ensure the studying of distances relative to the lenses and aperture used is accurate.

A little pocket Red one DOF chart made in plastic and fully waterproof is for me an absolute must.

It is frightening for me to know that when using the 300mm prime on a sturdy tripod the DOF is going to be very narrow indeed. This is where the absolute correct chart relative to the COC is going to be needed. The Red DOF pocket chart will be with me all the time.

This is all going to be new to me, so practicing with another camera would have been useful. Since i have no other camera i have been practicing guessing the distances from imaginery camera point to subject. In the short space of six months i am amazed how good you can become at guessing the distance in general.

PS i am not referring to the usefulness of distance guessing with the likes of the 300mm lens (would that be brilliant) just more the red zoom.

So will red produce their own pocket chart or not. If not will a third party do so?

PS Stephen i read up on this a while ago the COC is different with different sized sensors. The precieved DOF is different. There are practice charts that show you the difference.

Mike the beginner

[ChristopherKenworthy]

I noticed that Jim mentioned a laser range finder. I've wondered for a long time if one of these was being built into the Red One, as all the mock-up pictures show a big red glow coming out of the camera. And focus will be an issue, so maybe a readout from a laser would be useful for a focus puller, saving time walking up to the subject at every mark. Having never been a focus puller, I don't know if this would even be a useful device, but who knows.

[Finner]

I noticed that Jim mentioned a laser range finder. I've wondered for a long time if one of these was being built into the Red One, as all the mock-up pictures show a big red glow coming out of the camera. And focus will be an issue, so maybe a readout from a laser would be useful for a focus puller, saving time walking up to the subject at every mark. Having never been a focus puller, I don't know if this would even be a useful device, but who knows.

Nice eye Christopher I had not noticed this. I worked as a focus puller for quite a while and panavision has a version of this they call the pana-tape that works very well. Arri also has a version of this and I use to own a surveyers version of this that worked well and was handy. This would be a good option but I do not know if there is a location on the camera itself that it could be placed that the matte box would not be in the way of. The pana-tape mounts on the top over the matte box.

[M Olsen]

Hi,

Film is never flat when running, fearly flat maybe!

A sharper lens will show less DOF, not more!

Stephen

As Stephen correctly points out there is a variance in film when running. As such it is susceptible to shallow Depth of Focus which, although related to and influenced by, is different to Depth of Field.
A perfectly flat sensor and an exact lens flange depth setting should remove the variance and maintain a "sharper" feel at all apertures and lens focus settings. But hey, better minds than mine can clarify this. I just shoot the stuff.

[M Olsen]

Nice eye Christopher I had not noticed this. I worked as a focus puller for quite a while and panavision has a version of this they call the pana-tape that works very well. Arri also has a version of this and I use to own a surveyers version of this that worked well and was handy. This would be a good option but I do not know if there is a location on the camera itself that it could be placed that the matte box would not be in the way of. The pana-tape mounts on the top over the matte box.

Most experienced 1st AC's I have worked with on drama in recent years use the Leica laser rangefinder and "sight" it from alongside the focal plane. It is useful when on a crane etc or for last minute checks, but anyone worth their salt always does the tape thing first to establish distance references.
Its a changing game though and each to their own as long as the job gets done.

[Sean]

I wonder if red is going to produce its own DOF chart exclusively for the red sensor. That would ensure the studying of distances relative to the lenses and aperture used is accurate.


That would be super useful...and will undoubtedly come in Barry Green's Red Manual.:ninja:

[Brook Willard]

I noticed that Jim mentioned a laser range finder. I've wondered for a long time if one of these was being built into the Red One, as all the mock-up pictures show a big red glow coming out of the camera. And focus will be an issue, so maybe a readout from a laser would be useful for a focus puller, saving time walking up to the subject at every mark. Having never been a focus puller, I don't know if this would even be a useful device, but who knows.

The glow you saw on the front of the camera in the renders was for show only. The PL-mount and RED logo below it do not glow.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, many ACs carry a Leica Disto or similar laser range finder... they're wonderful. When I work as an AC, I generally request a CineTape or PanaTape measure. While there are obvious limitations with such systems, it's fantastic when you know what you're looking at. Is the camera peeking through foreground? The number's probably wrong. Is the camera aiming at one person in an empty room? Pff, shoot at a 1.3, I got this.

As for RED DOF, there is no need for a RED-specific DOF chart. DOF does not change, regardless of format. For example:

You have a 50mm lens on your camera. Your subject is at 10'. You're shooting at F:2.0.

Your near DOF is 9'5" and your far DOF is 10' 7.75". This figure will not change on any format - be it 1/3", 2/3", S16mm, 35mm, S35mm or RED. What will change is your field of view [FOV].

Where DOF appears to change between formats is when FOVs are matched. For example, a 50mm on S35mm will have a very similar FOV to a 25mm on S16mm. Because we are now using different focal lengths, the DOFs will be different [even though the FOV is now "the same"].

Obviously there is a difference between film and a bayer-pattern sensor's DOF. So now does the RED need a custom DOF chart? Nope. Here's why:

1: The perceived DOF will change based on the lenses. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Cookes and Arri/Zeiss lenses transmit different wavelengths in different quantities. As a result, different lenses will appear sharper or softer depending on their wavelength transmission and aberration characteristics. Two lenses of the exact same focal length can have different DOFs.

2: Determining what is in "acceptable focus" and what isn't will always come down to the operator. In the aforementioned example, I could set my focus to 10'6" and technically be "sharp" according to my DOF chart. But am I sharp? No. I'm barely within what is deemed acceptably sharp by some formula created eons ago. The difference in what is acceptable and what isn't changes from person to person, show to show and shot to shot.

Long story short? Get your 35mm DOF and suppose that you have slightly less DOF than the chart states.

The real answer? Don't go soft. :)

[Stephen Williams]

PS Stephen i read up on this a while ago the COC is different with different sized sensors. The precieved DOF is different. There are practice charts that show you the difference.

Mike the beginner

Hi Mike,

I think you will find it's the resoloution of the film/sensor combination rather than the actual size of the sensor.

By using Zeiss Digi Primes on a 2/3 inch sensor wide open, you could well end up with less DOF than Nikon stills lens on a Red. The Zeiss is very sharp at T1.5, the same is not true for most Nikon lenses.

I am of course unable to test this theory at the present time. I have shot on a Viper with prime lenses wide open. I found that I got far less DOF than the DOF calculator on Panavisions web site indicated.

Stephen

[Joel Kaye]

That would be super useful...and will undoubtedly come in Barry Green's Red Manual.:ninja:

Barry's been unusually quiet about RED - at least around here. Is he not a RED head? Staying P2 perhaps?

[Steve Gibby]

Jarred answered that on a thread last month. Barry is holding down the DVX User fort...

[Charles Papert]

I would say that you guys shouldn't get too nutty about DOF charts. It would be good to browse them to get a sense for how aperture and focal length conspire individually and in combination to affect DOF, but in regular practice you won't often need to refer to them. Usually they are used to calculate a split, which is when you are trying to hold focus on two people at different distances to the camera (a classic example is a side angle on a driver and passenger in a car from a side mount aka hostess tray; if you want both to be in focus, consult the chart to see what stop you should be shooting at). One very portable device that many assistants use is a Kelly wheel(http://www.filmtools.com/kewhakakeca.html); a more high-tech version is a set of handy Palm apps that have many great features including a field-of-view visualizer: p-cam and p-cine (http://www.davideubank.com/).

Regarding the circle of confusion or comparison to 35mm, my experience with the Genesis has led me to the conclusion that the DOF characteristic of 35mm sized digital sensors is noticeably shallower than 35mm film. One top-notch AC that I work with feels that it is somewhere inbetween spherical and anamorphic 35mm, which is very shallow. Anyone who is currently planning their first RED feature would be well advised to plan on hiring an experienced AC who has pulled 35mm--you'd hate to find out down the road that the fruits of your labor are soft.

And for those training themselves now, spending some time on set observing a skilled AC is worth its weight in gold. There's a tremendous amount of voodoo and a myriad of techniques involved, and no two assistants do it the same way. Tools like the Panatape and Cinetape and laser systems like the Long Ranger and Sniper are very useful but generally not while the subject is moving, which is usually the tough part. I was working on "Ugly Betty" last week and we shot two guys sprinting towards camera at a variety of focal lengths up to 275mm. The AC did a fantastic job with the challenge, but FYI he has been pulling for 15 years or so. He took reference points via eye focusing through the viewfinder with the 2nd AC holding a slate at specific points along the route. After each take I was able to give him notes on the sections of the shot that did buzz, so he could adjust those on subsequent takes. I look forward to seeing the RED viewfinder in action and hope that it improves on the status quo of HD viewfinders (and also the "magic focus" feature, whatever it may prove to be).