Which still lens mount options?

[Dominic Jones]

Any thoughts on which still lens mounts will be offered as optional replacements?

I'm assuming Nikon F will be supported, as will a Canon mount (FD?), but how about a Contax/Yashica bayonet mount - theres a lot of very reasonable Zeiss glass about for the C/Y mount at very good prices, and they do wider than either Nikkor or Canon glass at reasonable speeds (say f2.8 or faster) - very important on an S35-sized sensor.

Just a thought...

[Sanjin Jukic]

For my point of view PL mount ( The PL stands for "positive lock") should be built in as a standard on the RED ONE camera and other mounts like additional options to order. About DSLR mounts I would like to suggest that the first option should be CANON EOS mount.

WHY?

Jim Jannard mentioned once on DVXUser-RED forum: 'The
EOS lenses are fine optically, but there is no manual
aperture control.'

That's the truth, but to have EOS mount doesn't mean
to attach EOS lenses to shoot with RED ONE. It means
that the CANON EOS mount has a great benefit option to
attach wide range of other 35mm photo lenses like
Hasselblad Lens to Canon EOS mount,
adapter Leica R lens Canon EOS,
adapter Contax/Yashica CO/Y lens Canon EOS Mount,
Olympus OM Lens to Canon EOS mount
and finally adapter for
Nikon F mount lenses on EOS cameras and then you can use
additional adapters for
M42 for the Nikon F Bayonet and
Nikon to Four Thirds (4/3).

A lot of options just with one BASE 35mm SLR-DSLR
mount. All that with a little help from third
party(ies) and you could have many 35mm SLR-DSLR
lenses on the RED ONE camera. Hope this make sense or
I am wrong?

Find, have a look, purchase and try out all these adapters like
Zörk Mount Adapters
http://www.zoerk.com/pages/p_mounta.htm
http://www.zoerk.com/Zoerk%20info/product_guide_current.pdf

or some cheaper adapter mount options at
http://www.enjoyyourcamera.com/index.php?cat=c39_Canon-Adapter.html

Also must have a look at this Canon EOS lens gear at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fodder/sets/72157594320195534/

[Evin Grant]

they do wider than either Nikkor or Canon glass at reasonable speeds (say f2.8 or faster) - very important on an S35-sized sensor.

Why do you say this? What Contax wideangle has no
Nikon equivelent?

Here is a list..
http://www.contaxcameras.co.uk/slr/slrmanlenses.asp

And an EOS only mount is an interesting idea but two mounts makes me worry about stability and flatness of field.

[Dominic Jones]

Zeiss do a 16mm f2.8 for the C/Y mount - the Nikkors at this length start getting very slow (I've used Nikon gear for over a decade, so don't worry, I'm not knocking them!) - I think the closest Nikkor is the 15mm f3.5 (they do a 16mm f2.8 but it's not rectilinear).

It's also more a question of lens choice - I like Zeiss glass a lot, and the C/Y mount gives the option of buying some (relatively) cheap glass for day to day use on the Red One, useful especially considering that my company is based a ways away from any rental houses, but I imagine quite a few shooters will want a low cost alternative to hiring PL mount optics...

The Canon EOS idea has it's merits, but in reality for professionals changing lens adapter mounts all the time is a pain in the you-know-where - trust me, I've done it, and gave up on it very quickly.

BTW, I'm not suggesting DSLR mounts I'm talking about SLR mounts...

[Martin Drew]

Nikon 14mm f/2.8

http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=1925

Martin

[Sanjin Jukic]

Even better option is to have more separate SLR and Cinema lens mounts like Red Rock Micro M2 Lens adapter has, Nikon Lens Mount, Canon FD Lens Mount, Canon EOS Lens Mount, Minolta Lens Mount, Olympus Lens Mount, Pentax K Lens Mount, Pentax S Lens Mount and finally Arriflex PL Mount. Could be possible to achieve cheap price options like RR prices between $90 (Nikon Lens Mount) to $ 450 (PL mount). I have RR Nikon Lens Mount and Canon EOS Lens Mount for my RR M2 adapter. It works.

[Dominic Jones]

Nikon 14mm f/2.8

http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=1925

Martin
Ah, thanks Martin - I'd never discovered that, I thought I knew every Nikkor lens on the market, but I guess I'm out of date!... Do you happen to know if there's an MF version available?

In either case, which length lenses are/are not available for a given system is really not the issue, it's choice of glass - I'd certainly like to have the option of Zeiss SLR glass on the table...

Yes, it would be great to have a huge choice of SLR mounts, but if that's not possible/practical (there may, after all, not be that great a demand for them with an essentially "high-end" camera) then I'm simply saying I'd like to see the C/Y bayonet supported.

FWIW, the C/Y mount is *not* supported by Redrock (I've got one of the very fist M2's, as it happens), SGPro or any other 35mm adapter that I know of, except through conversion rings, which is a shame - it's a great system.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Even cheaper, wider and better lens or
The Widest Lens on Earth?
Voigtländer12mm/5,6 SL Ultra Wide-Heliar also has for Nikon F
http://www.voigtlaender.com/
Reviews
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/12mm.shtml
http://www.apogeephoto.com/dec2000/Voigtlander_ultra.shtml

[Martin Drew]

Dominic. No purely manual version of the 14mm, though you can of course switch it to manual mode. There is a little mini-review from Ken Rockwell here http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/1428.htm.

Jim has talked about other still mounts before over at dvxuser here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=637691&highlight=mount#post637691 he said:

Over time we expect to offer many lens mounts. But in the beginning, expect PL, Nikon and Canon manual. We are fully supportive of 3rd parties beating us to the punch in offering other mounts. By the fall of 2007, our hope is that there will be a mount for almost any lens that makes sense.

[Martin Drew]

Or if you want to have a bit of fun you could get the Peleng 8mm Fisheye in Arri PL mount. I believe this is actually a very good quality lens but being from Belarus it is ridiculously cheap at 349 USD and yes, that is with the PL mount.
http://rafcamera.com/8mm-circular-fisheye-lens-peleng-p-131.html
Review + links to more info here: http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/stuff/peleng_fisheye/peleng_fisheye.html

Martin

[Sanjin Jukic]

But the Peleng 3.5/8 mm is a circular fisheye lens and Voigtländer Ultra Wide Heliar 12 mm f5.6 is Aspherical Lens. That's the difference!!!

[Martin Drew]

But the Peleng 3.5/8 mm is a circular fisheye lens and Voigtländer Ultra Wide Heliar 12 mm f5.6 is Aspherical Lens. That's the difference!!!

Yup. I know it is not rectilinear (though of course you could derive a rectilinear distortion through After Effects). I just thought it was worth mentioning in the context of wide cheap lenses.

The Voigtländer Ultra Wide Heliar 12 mm f5.6 has been discussed before. Evin thought it may not fit because it protrudes into the body too far. I don't know if this would be the case and the only way of knowing for sure will be once the camera is released and someone tries it.

There are wider options than the Voigtländer but they don't come cheap. The Russian made JSC Optica-Elite 9.6mm T2.1 http://slowmotioninc.com/sales/s35/9_6mm.htm which is about 8000 USD or the Arri 8mm ultra prime: http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/ultra_prime_r8/ultra_prime_r8.htm Not sure of the price of that but rest assured it is a lot more expensive.

Martin

[Sanjin Jukic]

Martin, thanks for the info and in general about lenses everything should be tested before any purchase decision.

[chuck colburn]

Perhaps a better lens mount plan would be to do something like what Aaton did. That is insted of each adapter fitting into one permanet mount, (be it PL or whatever) have each mount be attachable to the camera body by a nice large stainless steel ring. This would ensure repetability as each mount would be self contained and not be a seperate piece between the lens and some other mount. I'd rather pay six to eight hundred dollars for a nice brass and steel mount which I knew would repeat an accurate flange focal depth then to have a go between unit.
Mayby thats what that round tube looking piece behind the PL mount in the photo is!

Chuck

[Evin Grant]

I'm not sure if that is entirely a good idea on a 35mm size sensor array. Sensors just don't have the room for error film does. Especially 16mm film with it's mostly short focal length/large depth of field lenses. I'd like to see real thick numerous bolts for whatever mounts Red decides. That way we can be sure there is no focus shift from edge to edge.

[chuck colburn]

Hi Evin,

I didn't give a very good discription of the design for the mount I was thinking of. The clamping ring would be just to pull the mount flush to the camera body. The mount itself would be located by a shoulder that fits to a matching diameter bore on the face plate of the camera. Much like the outside diameter of PL mount lens fits to the inside diameter of the camera mount. And since the clamping ring makes contact continuously on the full diameter of the mount it would provide much more and evenly distributed clamping force. Also you would not need any tools to remove and replace it. Short focal length lenses do have more apperant depth of field but inversely they have very shallow depth of focus and require very precision collimation to the film plane be it celluloid or silicon.

Chuck

[peter roehsler]

In theory you would have to adapt a 35mm SLR lens to a flange to film distance of 52mm for RED PL (APS-C is 51,98mm) and a mount diameter not exceeding 54mm.
Here is a link to a table of flange distances for various 35mm mounts:
http://www.mapug-astronomy.net/ragreiner/adapters.html
The average flange distance for 35mm SLR lenses reads around 45mm, so unless some RED mount allows to get rid of these extra 9mm or so, there would be no way to use any 35mm SLR lens on RED´s PL mount.
Leica M and Voigtlaender reads 27,8mm flange distance, hard to imagine that these could be used on RED.
I am pondering alternate (read cheap) solutions too, but I think I shall wait for REDs offerings of SLR hard mounts before I will have any lens dismantled and re-fitted for PL.
My guess for flange tolerance for S35 would be 0,02mm - meaning playing with lenses without a collimator is a definite no no.
peter

[chuck colburn]

In theory you would have to adapt a 35mm SLR lens to a flange to film distance of 52mm for RED PL (APS-C is 51,98mm) and a mount diameter not exceeding 54mm.
Here is a link to a table of flange distances for various 35mm mounts:
http://www.mapug-astronomy.net/ragreiner/adapters.html
The average flange distance for 35mm SLR lenses reads around 45mm, so unless some RED mount allows to get rid of these extra 9mm or so, there would be no way to use any 35mm SLR lens on RED´s PL mount.
Leica M and Voigtlaender reads 27,8mm flange distance, hard to imagine that these could be used on RED.
I am pondering alternate (read cheap) solutions too, but I think I shall wait for REDs offerings of SLR hard mounts before I will have any lens dismantled and re-fitted for PL.
My guess for flange tolerance for S35 would be 0,02mm - meaning playing with lenses without a collimator is a definite no no.
peter

Exactly Peter !

It would be almost, if not, impossible to remount 35mm still camera lenses in PL mount. You would have to move or extend the apreture control ring forward or else it would end up behind the PL mount itself. And on many lenses the control ring would have to come so far forward that it would intefer with the focus ring. Plus the cost would be brutal. That's why I agree with you that each particular lens mount for the camera should be its own little hard front as it were. This is going to be an amazing camera and just be cause it is compact of size does not mean that it should have a shoddy lens mounting system. After all the lens mount is the door to the house as it were. And you don't want to give bad curb. Do you?

Chuck

[peter roehsler]

Chuck,
I could not have said it better. I read your profile and I found that you are an expert on these things. We should not try to apply cheap shortcut solutions to a tool which will be surprisingly inexpensive when available, but rather try to meet the high technical standards set by the people behind RED.
peter

[Sanjin Jukic]

Jim has talked about other still mounts before over at dvxuser here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=637691&highlight=mount#post637691 he said:

Over time we expect to offer many lens mounts. But in the beginning, expect PL, Nikon and Canon manual. We are fully supportive of 3rd parties beating us to the punch in offering other mounts. By the fall of 2007, our hope is that there will be a mount for almost any lens that makes sense.

About other still mounts technology the RED TEAM will decide at the end of development process and the 3rd parties will professionally follow the way, do the precise measuring, manufacture and try to sell us other SLR mounts for the RED ONE. No any fear about that.

[Roberto B]

it seems the fav mount will be the nikon F.. also because the nikkor glass has its merit.. but the sanjin's viewpoint has his own..

[Emanuel A.]

I agree.

[EDIT]

Sanjin, nice tip:


Even cheaper, wider and better lens or
The Widest Lens on Earth?
Voigtländer12mm/5,6 SL Ultra Wide-Heliar also has for Nikon F
http://www.voigtlaender.com/
Reviews
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/12mm.shtml
http://www.apogeephoto.com/dec2000/Voigtlander_ultra.shtml

[Akcelik]

if that Voigtländer works, one could hug the world!

if it does not work, would a spacer ring help solve the issue?

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Emanuel,

I am already collecting HIGH & LOW options for the RED ONE, I mean a workflow, gears and accessories.

By the way remember the film High and Low (Japanese: 天国と地獄, Tengoku to jigoku, literally "Heaven and Hell") is a 1963 film directed by Akira Kurosawa.

So the RED ONE variants for the rich and the poor budget. Somehow like a INDIE FILMMAKER a LOW variant you could afford it for a private use and a HIGH variant you could rent it for a production.

[chuck colburn]

About other still mounts technology the RED TEAM will decide at the end of development process and the 3rd parties will professionally follow the way, do the precise measuring, manufacture and try to sell us other SLR mounts for the RED ONE. No any fear about that.

Hello The Third Man,

Since the RED TEAM appears to be open to third party involement in the manufacturing of lens mounts for it's camera, I wonder if they are going to release dimensional drawings of the camera front end. Or if one would have to get their hands on an actual unit for measurments. This is not a big deal as lens mounts are one of the more simplistic parts of a camera. But it would speed up the process to have mechanical drawings in hand. Besides still camera lenses, I would love to see a set Baush & Lomb Super Baltars on the front of a RED ONE. These lenses have a lovely look to them and are plenty fast at f2 .

Chuck

[Stephen Williams]

Hello The Third Man,

, I would love to see a set Baush & Lomb Super Baltars on the front of a RED ONE. These lenses have a lovely look to them and are plenty fast at f2 .

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

Incredibly cheap, beautiful lenses IMHO.

Stephen

[chuck colburn]

Hi Chuck,

Incredibly cheap, beautiful lenses IMHO.

Stephen

Hi Stephen,

Ah, a man of good taste.
I saw three on ebay recently, I think a 20, 35 and a 50mm. They are getting harder to find nowadays though. Easier to mount if in R-35 mount as opposed to the huge BNCR mount (picture a larger PL type mount). When I used to look at them on a collimator years ago, I was impressed by the resoultion and also by what I would call a creamy warmth to the image. Plus they have a stout feel to the control rings (nice fluting) none of this rubber coated or nurled girly-man barrles or rings. LOL

Chuck

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Stephen,

Ah, a man of good taste.
I saw three on ebay recently, I think a 20, 35 and a 50mm. They are getting harder to find nowadays though. Easier to mount if in R-35 mount as opposed to the huge BNCR mount (picture a larger PL type mount). When I used to look at them on a collimator years ago, I was impressed by the resoultion and also by what I would call a creamy warmth to the image. Plus they have a stout feel to the control rings (nice fluting) none of this rubber coated or nurled girly-man barrles or rings. LOL

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

They sold for less than Nikon Glass!

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

CINEVISION New York

Second-hand 35mm lenses:

Cooke Speed Pancro Lens Set $2,700
http://www.cinevision-ny.com/salesinfo/CookeSP/CookeSP.html
Arri Zeiss T* Lens Set $ 5800
http://www.cinevision-ny.com/salesinfo/ZeissSTD/ZeissSet.html
Arri 300mm Zeiss T* Lens $3250
http://www.cinevision-ny.com/salesinfo/Zeiss300/Zeiss300.html
Nikkor 200mm T2.0 Century Conversion PL Mount $5500
http://www.cinevision-ny.com/salesinfo/Nikkor200/Nikkor200.html
Canon 300mm Telephoto Lens Arri PL Mount $3700
http://www.cinevision-ny.com/salesinfo/Canon300/Canon300.html

[Stephen Williams]

CINEVISION New York

Second-hand 35mm lenses:

Cooke Speed Pancro Lens Set $2,700
http://www.cinevision-ny.com/salesinfo/CookeSP/CookeSP.html
Arri Zeiss T* Lens Set $ 5800
http://www.cinevision-ny.com/salesinfo/ZeissSTD/ZeissSet.html


Hi,

FWIW they are in Arri Standard mount, not PL.

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

For the standard Arri lens mount solution is Arri Standard to PL mount adapter like
Les Bosher can make:
"We Manufacture a Range of Lens Mount Adapters & are Able to make that special Adapter You're looking for."
http://www.lesbosher.co.uk/lensadapt.htm

[Stephen Williams]

For the standard Arri lens mount solution is Arri Standard to PL mount adapter like
Les Bosher can make:
"We Manufacture a Range of Lens Mount Adapters & are Able to make that special Adapter You're looking for."
http://www.lesbosher.co.uk/lensadapt.htm

Hi,

A quality adapter is not cheap, one is ideally required for each lens so that the lenses can be properly collimated.

FWIW Arri made an adapter, it cost approx $1000

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

About high-end 35mm cinema lenses the best way is to rent them because the sets are extremely expensive. I could rent them in the Arri Rental here in Vienna for example: Zeiss Standard prime lens for €60 per day or €180 per week, Zeiss Ultra Prime lens for €180 per day or €540 per week or Cooke S4 prime lens for €130 per day or €390 per week. Still it is affordable solution in comparison to buy a new or even second hand one.

Nikon F mount lenses is the most affordable way to go. There are Nikkors, Zeiss, Voigtländer, Angenieux, Sigma and others in that option.

[chuck colburn]

Hi Chuck,

They sold for less than Nikon Glass!

Stephen

Damn!

[Emanuel A.]

Thanks Emanuel,

I am already collecting HIGH & LOW options for the RED ONE, I mean a workflow, gears and accessories.

By the way remember the film High and Low (Japanese: 天国と地獄, Tengoku to jigoku, literally "Heaven and Hell") is a 1963 film directed by Akira Kurosawa.

So the RED ONE variants for the rich and the poor budget. Somehow like a INDIE FILMMAKER a LOW variant you could afford it for a private use and a HIGH variant you could rent it for a production.I fully agree with you, Sanjin. As matter of fact, you completely summed up the point of many future RED shooters here (out there and everywhere).

It's an add-value to count with you in any forum where you're posting. I'm glad to follow your posts over here and see how it is relevant to this community to have your reservation -- colored by the same color than our own.

And also my greetings regarding your film quotes! Who knows your website (an excellent source of info around the digital filmmaking since the early years), have already known your high standards related to what is worthy of consideration. Your references are speaking for yourself if any other source was necessary. But it isn't.

[EDIT]

However, I should admit the RED lenses will be for the lenses options like the RED ONE is for the digital camera market. The 18-85mm -- even being not so fast as we would like (for the obvious reasons) it will be an unbeatable offer as motion lens. And I recommend any RED ONE reservation holder to hold a zoom lens reservation, as well. And there will be an excellent deal during the upcoming days (this month) when the RED company will open it!

I have two lenses reservations (as matter of fact, three counting with the 300mm) for my both future cameras and I would have many more as far as RED ONE reservations I would hold.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Emanuel,

I have a great respect for you and very much appreciate your knowledge, expertise, experience, style and temperament I found in your posts.

[Emanuel A.]

:o (thanks for your kind words!) Anyway, to read an indie POV over our own route is always a gift. As well, to have Fellini, Welles or Reed, Kurosawa... supporters is a second gift. :)

[PeteCoggan]

Leica has my vote. Nikon fine, but Leica is simply my favorite Glass.

Pete

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I know it's drifting from the main topic, but is there any Leica glass out there in a PL mount? I have a fondness for Leica too as that's what I used for years for still photography from the time I started learning and on. I don't own any Leica lenses these days (unless you count the fixed lens on my HVX). I'll be buying the Nikon mount with my RED just to have my Nikon glass as an option, but I plan to use the RED 18-85 most of the time and primarily stick with PL mount glass on RED.

Pete, nice to see even more RED Ones headed to the Denver area... Your 106 & 107 are the lowest reservation #'s I've seen for around here, but including yours, I'm now aware of 6 cameras in addition to my own. Plus another in Co Springs...

[Stephen Williams]

I know it's drifting from the main topic, but is there any Leica glass out there in a PL mount? I have a fondness for Leica too as that's what I used for years for still photography from the time I started learning and on. I don't own any Leica lenses these days (unless you count the fixed lens on my HVX). I'll be buying the Nikon mount with my RED just to have my Nikon glass as an option, but I plan to use the RED 18-85 most of the time and primarily stick with PL mount glass on RED.

Pete, nice to see even more RED Ones headed to the Denver area... Your 106 & 107 are the lowest reservation #'s I've seen for around here, but including yours, I'm now aware of 6 cameras in addition to my own. Plus another in Co Springs...

Hi,

Yes, Leica have been rebuilt for 35mm film cameras. Joe Dunton www.joedunton.com rents them and www.vandiemen.tv rebuilds them, they are expensive.

Stephen

[Matt Uhry]

Id like to see the internal dimensions of the submount (that is whatever the PL, Nikon or whatever bolts to ) be slightly over 62mm wide ( to allow BNCR and OCT 19 lenses ) and 25mm deep (Leica M, 27.8mm) This should handle anything you would want to bolt onto it and make it easy to clean the sensor area if you really really really need to.

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com

[Evin Grant]

We can only ask and hope.