Compact 1080p EFP cam

[Hrvoje Simic]

Does Red company have any aspirations towards developing a compact 1080p camera for documentaries, sports and other tv projects,
or the goal is strictly set on producing the best cinema camera ?

-1/2" sensor,
-1080p,
-Redcode Raw,
-only internal recording to flash memory,
-the size (with lens) of HVX-200/HVR-Z1
-$ 8-10k price range...

When there's no need to carry around the 4k beast, a smaller brother would really come in handy.

[Steve Gibby]

Over the last 15 months that has been brought up several times on RED forums. Though it would be a real cool camera as you describe, my instinct is telling me that RED probably won't produce a camera like that. The 1/2" sensor 1080p market niche has a lot of cameras already. I think the camera you described is a cool idea but I'm not sure RED would ever make a move like that...

[Stuart English]

Given that the size of RED ONE is smaller than most ENG / EFP cameras, there is already an option of using a 2/3" B4 mount, or Super 16 mm lens and shooting 2K RAW.

At 2K, "on-board" flash memory such as CF or Express Card or SATA would provide enough storage time to make a fast turnaround ENG workflow work pretty well, and minimize the weight and size of the RED ONE for full mobility EFP applications.

[Steve Gibby]

All good points Stuart - and exactly what many of us are planning to do when it comes to mobile EFP shooting.

I was focusing in on Omen's 1/2" sensor suggestion in my response...

[tj williams]

Stuart

How much time can I expect to get per gig on the latest windowed RGB 1080/720P?

can I get time on reasonably priced cards compared to current tape ie HDcam 40min? to make this competitive with other ENG cameras?

On another posting I suggested RED Cine render 480 Would it be possible to shoot RGB 480 and retire my BetacamSp???

[Hrvoje Simic]

Thanks for the response, guys.

Gibby, disregard the exact sensor size - I wanted to stress the difference between Mysterium and this sensor, and the 2/3" variant would have larger pixel size, and by that 1080p picture quality too similar to Mysterium's (offcourse, without 35mm DOF).

Stuart, I'm aware of the options you mentioned, the point was on the extra portability, price and added automated options used for dynamic shooting, such as extreme sports.
For example, I will probably use RED ONE for a TV project which really doesn't need RED ONE (altough highly welcomes it, as a lot of keying will be involved), just because I don't want to spend $$ for usual 2/3" cams (after being spoiled by RED's price), and I want to avoid the 1/3" model's crappy low light sensitivity or HDV artifacts.

The idea was - when RED company reaches the level where it is able to produce wide variety of video capture devices, how about aiming for the "lower range" ruler also ?

I know many people brought this up before, and that's exactly what could give you a picture of potential sales profit of this camera.

And yeah, people please don't take this as not being satisfied with RED ONE. This is a whole different subject.

[Steve Gibby]

Omen,

If I hear you right, you're suggesting a follow-up companion camera to RED One, targeted at the market below RED One - a camera with a new 2/3" CMOS sensor, interchangeable lenses, shooting in REDCODE RGB 1080p and 720p (maybe also new 1080p REDCODE RAW), and smaller than RED One. It would be specifically targeted at the run 'n gun EFP/ENG market, be affordable, and use established NLE systems.

There is a niche for such a camera - one that is Wavelet-based, and doesn't suffer from the drawbacks of MPEG2 and DCT. Will someone eventually fill that niche? I'd say yes. Will it be RED with a camera like you described? I'd say who knows. Will RED One be able to do effective run 'n gun EFP/ENG when kept small, using Flash, and with lighweight accessories? I'd say a definite yes.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Heard right, nicely put and nothing to add to that.

[Milan Nikolic]

I second Omen Gibby!

[Mark Thorpe]

OK, here goes, this is just how uneducated I am

RED = OK, got that one.
EFP = ?
ENG = ?

Seeing as I started pointing cameras at underwater objects a few years back I only ever really kept my head busy with what I was / continue to do. What exactly are EFP and ENG? I understand they are a certain type of filming / workload intensive production genres but can someone give the real definitions?

Thanks,
Mark.

[Hrvoje Simic]

EFP = Electronic Field Production
ENG = Electronic News Gathering


There's so much to know, we're all learning something here.

[Ralph Oshiro]

ENG = "Local news" kinda video production.
EFP = Anything other than local news that shoots in video. Especially when you use more lights than say, a SunGun, or what's in the station's crummy Lowel kit. "EFP" usually implies a higher level of production (more equipment, time, and stuff).

[Mike Devlin]

The acronyms stand for Electronic Field Production and Electronic News Gathering. Wikipedia has okay (but limited) definitions of both.

[tj williams]

Hi Omen

There is a camera "almost" like that the Silicon Imaging camera only does 2K they make a kinda Cine camera but the thing it contains inside and sold seperately, an almost lipstick camera. At this point it takes a bunch of computer gunk n wires, to make it work but the idea of a very small POV type camera is very good.

I think it would make a great companion camera to RED! I've seen advertisements, already selling the little egg sized HD POVs that do 1080max.

Going to the RED, small mountable cameras are something I'll really miss. I've used them for everything from underwater on a stick, from a boat cams, to mounting one on a Kayak blade for an Olympic promo piece. Recently we mounted one to the skin of a 747 Jet.

All wonderful shots that we can't get at this new higher resolution???

What I'd like is a: Red sensor in a smaller box, using rugged weather proof cable, remote the electronics to the standard RED body?

[Stuart English]

As we've discussed before, although RED ONE could operate in either ENG or EFP applications, it really better suited to the latter, as the former is pretty well serviced by standard definition camcorders. There's a lot of crossover though - plenty of HD being shot for inserts into "news" style programs. Main point is - as an out and out ENG camera RED ONE is probably overkill - although I'd be delighted to be proven wrong in that assumption. As a single camera that can address Digital Cinema, EFP and ENG though, I think its unmatched. Which is a great point when you have to budget for one camera but need to service all three of these markets.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Main point is - as an out and out ENG camera RED ONE is probably overkill

That's exactly why some of think that it would be useful to have a "mini RED" in the future.


As a single camera that can address Digital Cinema, EFP and ENG though, I think its unmatched. Which is a great point when you have to budget for one camera but need to service all three of these markets.

Ooh yeah.

[Joe Carney]

Red will be the first legitimate 1080x60p camera on the market. With dual SDI out, how much you want to bet 'The Tonight Show' would take a look? Windowed or not. The market for live shows in extreme high quality video is very large and waiting for the next big thing. Even converted to 1080i for final delivery, it will look better than 1080i sourced.
Besides Craig Furgeson is desparetly in need of upgrading the look of his show. hehehe.

[Mike Devlin]

Red will be the first legitimate 1080x60p camera on the market. With dual SDI out...

The Sony HDC1000 and HDC1500 have been out for a couple of years, are widely used in video production trucks, studios, news organizations, etc., and already have 1080 60P and dual link HD SDI, variable frame rates, etc. We have been shooting 1080 60P for a year, and people were certainly doing it long before we were. We will shoot our RED cameras 4K with 35mm Cine lenses to move up to the next level in quality. And no, we do not need or want or even tolerate standard def :wink:

[Joe Carney]

Cool Mike, I didn't know that. But Sonys' own literature seems to indicate only 1080x60i gets sent out the sdi cable. The highest progressive signal to get sent over the wire is 1080x25p.

[Mike Devlin]

You can get the brochure and ops manual for the HDC1500 here, but I am not sure it is up to date with latest software. See http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/cinealta/shoot/hdc1500l444.shtml

The camera body has two HDSDI which you can set to Dual link mode. You need to have the SRW1 deck (HDCAM SR) with cache board to really get the best out of the camera (variable frame rates and such) but it easily does 1080 30P 4:4:4 and 1080 60P 4:2:2. That is the limit of SMPTE dual link HDSDI. Obviously more expensive than RED, but beautiful images. I look forward to comparing the image quality with RED when we receive #612, if not earlier.

[Obin Olson]

This is HUGELY needed...SMALL FORM FACTOR....even EPIC is heavy, and I will be shooting with GYROS....I need a 5d or less in weight with 2 Kenyon's on the bottom.....I am now going to try and hack my red as the "CMOS" board is connected via special connectors the the main boards.

this should be interesting. sourcing the connectors at the moment.

[Obin Olson]

anyone know where I can find this connector?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36931590@N00/5769464030/in/photostream/

[Obin Olson]

BTW opening up the R1 for the first time I found a lot of dirt....wonder how many more years of this dirt leaking in till things start to fry on the inside.....I do take care of my camera but it seems it's not "dirt" proof! :)

[Obin Olson]

ahhh...could this be it?

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=SAM8194-ND

[Obin Olson]

and here is the mate:

http://media.digikey.com/photos/Samtec%20Photos/QSH-090-01-L-D-A.jpg

hmmm..sure wonder if I could make a 3-6 foot cable out of this with just the camera "head" and carry the r1 body in a backpack etc for the worlds lightest 4k camera head.

30 wires per connector and 4 or 5 connectors total....it will be some work but I don't see why I could not make this.

[Deanan]

30 wires per connector and 4 or 5 connectors total....it will be some work but I don't see why I could not make this.

The high bandwidth signals won't go that far.

[Obin Olson]

and the singles:

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=SAM8185-ND

[Obin Olson]

The high bandwidth signals won't go that far.

GREAT to know! so what would it take to make them travel that far?

and how far will they travel right now as is with a longer cable? 1 foot more? 2 foot?

[Obin Olson]

Im gearing up for a project that requires I shoot like I would with my Canon 5d..just the camera with 2 Kenyon ks2 gyros on the bottom of it.

SO I need a camera head that is 2lb or so...and I REALLY don't want to use the 5d(image sucks) and am willing to make this happen any way I can.

Need the help though to get from "here are the connectors" to a finished unit that will work....any help MUCH appreciated along the way...for example:

If the signals will not travel that far....what do we need to do to get them to travel that far? amplifier?

I understand this has not been done already but I would have a hard time hearing "no it can't be done" ...I will find a way. even all the new RED cameras are not going to be light enough unless they weigh in at 2 lb or so.

[sandro-bachmann]

red should not even think about building a new camera, before they not able to get those epic x, s, and all the scarlets in the field.

[David Diperstein]

Obin, Have you made any progress on this project? It's a fascinating idea.

[Obin Olson]

Now have an Epic...

Still too heavy. NEED SMALLER VERSION...

maybe try same thing with this version of RED camera?

ANyone know of a way to get the SENSOR and mount ONLY out into it's own shell/box for gyro shooting handheld light weight work?

[Patrick Tresch]

Isn't the Blackmagic kind of "sensor/mount only" camera?

Pat

[Jim Grieco]

ENG stands for Electronic News Gathering. EFP stands for Electronic Field Production. Both are usually used when referring to...on the fly/run and gun style shooting.

[Jake Wilganowski]

Yep I'd say blackmagic cam fits that description. Or these:
http://www.radiantimages.com/index.php/blog/714-customized-gopro-hero-3-black-edition-available-exclusively-at-radiant-images-2

[Hrvoje Simic]

This is a six year old thread.
Since a time kapsule has been opened, it might be interesting to check the current situation.

The requirements include:

2/3” to 1” sensor size range priority (due to picture quality/practicality compromise)
essential I/O (SDI/HDMI, XLR in, headphone out)
compact form factor
1080p minimum from properly scaled higher resolution single sensor or 3x1080p sensors
raw recording or proper RGB codec (10bit 4:2:2 at minimum)
practicality (physical handling, shooting/operation, workflow)
sturdiness/build quality
proper built-in adjustable monitor (preferrably 4-5” range)
built in NDs
can be held by its body and mounted on a tripod without any rigs
having buttons and rotary knobs/dials
essential quick access camera controls
if shooting strictly RGB codec - white balance, custom gammas, gain, additional color tweaking preferrable
body design not inherited from a device designed to be glued to the face for capturing one still frame
Candidates chosen by some of the factors from the list:

Sony PDW-200

Design approach - compact broadcast camera

+ 3x 1/2” sensors, camera controls, I/O, monitor placement, build quality, NDs, sturdiness
- size grown to slightly less practical, news gathering codec

Ikonoskop A-cam DII

Design approach - compact 16mm cinema camera

+ picture quality, recording quality, shutter and motion blur, build quality, size, I/O, sturdiness
- no monitor, no NDs, needs a rig, all-round usage practicality

BMCC

Design approach - affordable larger sensor high quality imaging

+ picture quality, recording quality, sensor size, compactness, monitor size, price
- MDS*, rolling shutter, field sturdiness, no NDs, needs a rig - and a tripod

Digital Bolex

Design approach - Bolex digital replacement

+ picture quality, recording quality, price, size, sturdiness
- MDS*, no NDs, “home video shaky cam” look built-in due to ergonomics, comes with a bell-bottoms & sideburns package

JVC GY-HMQ10

Design approach - multi-purpose concept

+ Picture resolution, temporal resolution, size, camera controls, shooting practicality, I/O, price,
- 1/2.3” sensor, thin codec, no NDs, workflow practicality

RED Scarlet 2/3”

Design approach - 16mm replacement

+ picture quality, recording quality, sturdiness, compact form factor
- ditched, else redundant



So...six years later, has the quest ended ?

No.



* MDS – Monitor Deviation Syndrome – started through a mutated gene from an offspring between a stills and a motion camera, which spread amongst many poor cameras around the world and mutated further. Most commonly manifests as inappropriate placement of the monitor on the camera body, making many shooting scenarios a challenge and camera left with the feeling of insufficiency to its shooter and tendencies of self shut-down. Some other manifestations include insufficient monitor size and monitor's fixed position. Treatment of the syndrome includes continous time spent on building rigs for additional monitors, energy spent on building patience and adapting the shooting to the camera’s issue and words of incouragement towards the camera regarding the issue.

[Gunleik Groven]

I see a lot of use of a 16mm'ish cam but preferably with 3k RAW capacity ike the original Scarlet. 3k for 3k was just "right"

But I and the manufactures do not seem to agree... :)

But honestly, if I was looking at "need" and not "drool", I'd much rather have taken a 2/3" smaller formfactor Scarlet at the moment, than a Dragon upgrade...

Hey... Wait... I may have answered my own (implied) question, right?

[Paramon Ivanovich]

But honestly, if I was looking at "need" and not "drool", I'd much rather have taken a 2/3" smaller formfactor Scarlet at the moment, than a Dragon upgrade...

you're not alone my friend, i'd take 2/3" Scarlet at any moment