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Jannard
07-25-2013, 10:47 PM
Jarred and I have been posting at the end of another but this news probably deserves its own thread.

The Dragon is out of the lab and in the hands of trained professionals. So far, the feedback is everything we had hoped to hear.

One major league production was going to shoot EPIC MX for everything except the "wide vistas"... and use 6K Dragon on those. After viewing his tests... the project will go 100% Dragon. It is a 20 camera shoot.

Jim

Ryan Sauve
07-25-2013, 10:50 PM
Dragon + Motion Mount. Winning.

Jett He
07-25-2013, 10:54 PM
Nice. Was hoping this thread might have some sample screen grabs though.

Jannard
07-25-2013, 10:56 PM
Give us just a couple more days...

Jim


Nice. Was hoping this thread might have some sample screen grabs though.

Bob Gundu
07-25-2013, 10:59 PM
Part of me doesn't want to see Dragon yet. I'm still marvelling at my Epic. :thumbsup:

Sergio Perez
07-25-2013, 11:07 PM
Part of me doesn't want to see Dragon yet. I'm still marvelling at my Epic. :thumbsup:

Seeing Gatsby and Flight shows us how much we the common non CGI people can pull from the Epic. I ordered the Dragon but sincerely the MX is just absolutelly stunning. Best buy I ever made.

Elsie N
07-25-2013, 11:12 PM
...

One major league production was going to shoot EPIC MX for everything except the "wide vistas"... and use 6K Dragon on those. After viewing his tests... the project will go 100% Dragon. It is a 20 camera shoot.

Jim
That's a pretty solid testimonial. Very good news and an affirmation of the original concept.

Sanjin Jukic
07-25-2013, 11:17 PM
Looking forward to see Dragon shots finally!!!!!

John Marchant
07-25-2013, 11:19 PM
Exciting stuff Jim :)

KETCH ROSSi
07-25-2013, 11:22 PM
Great to hear news like this Jim... While Epic MX is still this IT in the industry I just Can't hardly wait for DRAGON!!

Shawn Nelson
07-25-2013, 11:22 PM
Awesome! Side by side frames of an image so severe that Epic MX breaks but Dragon kicks ass would be a real treat.

Nick Morrison
07-25-2013, 11:27 PM
Can't wait!!

Elsie N
07-25-2013, 11:27 PM
Seeing Gatsby and Flight shows us how much we the common non CGI people can pull from the Epic. I ordered the Dragon but sincerely the MX is just absolutelly stunning. Best buy I ever made.
I've gotta say that as good as the Epic MX looks, I've still wanted more. I guess what I'm seeking is that "looking through a window" look when I'm viewing footage. I almost feel a little guilty because I know there are poor people in third world companies (I mean, countries '-) still shooting on DSLRs.

Ryan Sauve
07-25-2013, 11:35 PM
With the Dragon now complete, I wonder what kind of unspeakable amazeball projects all those freed up RED resources will be redirected too! I love how RED keeps the pedal to the metal, even after the competition has disappeared from the rearview mirror... 7 years ago.

Jannard
07-25-2013, 11:42 PM
There is no question that the Dragon upgrade has weighed down our engineering department. Many have now been deployed on new projects.

Jim

KETCH ROSSi
07-25-2013, 11:44 PM
There is no question that the Dragon upgrade has weighed down our engineering department. Many have now been deployed on new projects.

Jim


This is also exciting news for things to come, and while I missed this year's NAB, I am most absolutely certain I wan't miss NAB 2014, as I am sure at the pace RED has been moving along DRAGON and company included... 2014 will hold something truly amazing!

Marcello Altieri
07-25-2013, 11:44 PM
My Chinese horoscope tells me that I am a DRAGON....It will be a perfect camera for me...lol

Robert Ruffo New
07-25-2013, 11:44 PM
Gotta find me 10 extra grand....

Gabriele Turchi
07-25-2013, 11:55 PM
Give us just a couple more days...

Jim

Any chance we can get R3D snapshots (And new RCX i guess )?

Thanks
g

Jannard
07-25-2013, 11:59 PM
Everything is coming to a head. There is a new RCX and there will be R3D stills posted soon. It is all happening. We are busy times forever getting Dragon up and out the door.

Exciting times...

Jim


Any chance we can get R3D snapshots (And new RCX i guess )?

Thanks
g

Ryan Sauve
07-26-2013, 12:04 AM
There is no question that the Dragon upgrade has weighed down our engineering department. Many have now been deployed on new projects.

Jim

Coming up with the next revolutionary advancement in cinematic history no doubt. I can't wait to see what you guys come up with next. Until then, I'll be playing with my favorite toy and learning something new every day.

Steve Sherrick
07-26-2013, 12:06 AM
Jim, I suspect this is going to be a major step forward in the evolution of the RED brand and I congratulate you and your team for persevering. I'm looking forward to having a play with some of the R3Ds you release, although part of me fears that I may want to get my hands on a camera once I do.

Hopefully you will all be opening a fine bottle of champagne soon.

Nick Morrison
07-26-2013, 12:06 AM
There is no question that the Dragon upgrade has weighed down our engineering department. Many have now been deployed on new projects.

Jim

WOW. Scary thought....

PatrickFaith
07-26-2013, 12:07 AM
And the Dragon speaks, "Everything will change."

Shane Betts
07-26-2013, 01:02 AM
Does this mean the 6x4.5 is next? Huh? Huh?

AndreasOberg
07-26-2013, 01:06 AM
Fantastic, hehe, remember to get a cool vacation in the end! :)
Me and my partner just resigned from working at Mad Max as VFX artists. Humble Plan: Create movies with Epics that chance the world - visually poetic with stories that matter. Your fantastic cameras was a big reason why we dared to take this step. So thanks once again, can't wait to dedicate 150% of our lives to our Epic plans! To celebrate we are going to a occluded beach in Thailand where we will edit our first movie, 14TB of lovely Red material. Why not edit in style I say?
Best
/Andreas

luigivaltulini
07-26-2013, 01:10 AM
Well done big man, you brought and changed a lot in recent years, your Red team did a crazy job.
Red One and Epic are the result of hard work.
I am convinced that there will be Dragon 'as much fun.
I can not wait to push the red button on and see 6k on the screen;).


Congratulations again Jim, Jarred, and the whole team Red.

I await some grabsssss R3D are anxious ...

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 01:17 AM
There is no question that the Dragon upgrade has weighed down our engineering department. Many have now been deployed on new projects.

Jim

You do realize you are scaring the bejesus out of your competitors by writing stuff like that?

I'm enjoying the hell out of this. Hahaha. Get 'em, Jim!

Kwan Khan
07-26-2013, 01:29 AM
NIce

Curran Giddens
07-26-2013, 01:30 AM
I love hearing good news like this!

Jannard
07-26-2013, 01:34 AM
The Dragon is late... but worth the wait. The initial release is everything we promised. And we do expect it to get better over time with firmware upgrades... just like the RED ONE and EPIC MX.

Obsolescence obsolete.

Jim

Christopher Probst
07-26-2013, 01:37 AM
Oh hell yea!

That little teaser wasn't nearly enough time to quench my thirst for fire!

Filip Orlandic
07-26-2013, 01:41 AM
The Dragon is late... but worth the wait. The initial release is everything we promised. And we do expect it to get better over time with firmware upgrades... just like the RED ONE and EPIC MX.

Obsolescence obsolete.

Jim
Sounds terrific!!!

What's the Dragon's maximum highlight protection over middle gray @ ISO2000?

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 01:42 AM
I gotta go to sleep, but I keep feeling like a tactical nuke is about to air burst.

Paul Kalbach
07-26-2013, 01:42 AM
Come on an light my fire...

Phil Holland
07-26-2013, 01:45 AM
Congrats guys! That's actually really big and good news.

From my brief experience with it I think Dragon will "REDefine" what many expect out of digital cinema camera for some time to come.

Think of the image quality. Think of the size. Think of the flexibility in post.

Not long ago this stuff was all science fiction. Especially at this price point.

Jannard
07-26-2013, 01:48 AM
Every once in awhile the hard work and endless effort seems to pay off. This is one of those times.

You get to a place that satisfies all your effort. Then it is time to move on to the next milestone.

I'm happy to take a brief moment to celebrate here... the Dragon. It is everything we hoped it would be...

Jim

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 01:54 AM
Every once in awhile the hard work and endless effort seems to pay off. This is one of those times.

You get to a place that satisfies all your effort. Then it is time to move on to the next milestone.

I'm happy to take a brief moment to celebrate here... the Dragon. It is everything we hoped it would be...

Jim

Definitely know that feeling -- a living, breathing 42 without the payoff ----- YET. Excited to be on this ride. I feel silly wanting the Dragon when the MX meets every qualification I've ever wanted, but I can't wait to see the DRAGON process photons.

Casey Green
07-26-2013, 01:56 AM
Every once in awhile the hard work and endless effort seems to pay off. This is one of those times.

You get to a place that satisfies all your effort. Then it is time to move on to the next milestone.

I'm happy to take a brief moment to celebrate here... the Dragon. It is everything we hoped it would be...

Jim

:-)

Jannard
07-26-2013, 01:57 AM
The EPIC MX has shot so many great movies... too many to mention. The Dragon is just better. The good news is that it is an upgrade. It is an upgrade well worth the price of admission.

Jim

Shawn Bannon
07-26-2013, 01:59 AM
Pretty excited about being able to shoot at lower asa's again. More excited about 16+

Adam Beck
07-26-2013, 02:01 AM
The EPIC MX has shot so many great movies... too many to mention. The Dragon is just better. The good news is that it is an upgrade. It is an upgrade well worth the price of admission.

Jim

I'm sold!

Christopher Probst
07-26-2013, 02:04 AM
Can I show a monitor pic from my dragon shoot? Don't have access to a full 6K file to show off the full monty but how about a little sumthin to hold em off?

Jannard
07-26-2013, 02:08 AM
Only if it looks good... :-)

Jim


Can I show a monitor pic from my dragon shoot? Don't have access to a full 6K file to show off the full monty but how about a little sumthin to hold em off?

Dustin Veneman
07-26-2013, 02:15 AM
We ordered a dragon upgrade last week, and an epic to get us by till the dragon arrives :]

Dustin Veneman
07-26-2013, 02:18 AM
Is no one else awake? Lets have it Chris!

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 02:24 AM
Is no one else awake? Lets have it Chris!

Tried to go to sleep, but my iPhone got me back up...girlfriend tried to silence my incessant blathering about RED...they just don't get it. Haha.

Dustin Veneman
07-26-2013, 02:28 AM
Tried to go to sleep, but my iPhone got me back up...girlfriend tried to silence my incessant blathering about RED...they just don't get it. Haha.

Ha ha, sounds familiar, lucky for me I am in the +1 timezone

Christopher Probst
07-26-2013, 02:30 AM
This a pic that Phil shot of the 9" Red touch screen monitor on the camera while we were shooting... It's abstract enough that I think I can safely post it here...

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redDragonTestShoot_07_11_2013/bigs/desertDragonShoot_0050.jpg

What's funny is I always try to shoot for as little noise as possible... Often landing at 500 or 640 ISO...

Here I was trying to make it dark but the Dragon is so sensitive you really need to rethink your ideas about lighting! The governing factor on this shot was the intensity of the flashlight... At ISO 1500 and 1600, I would have had to futz with NDing the flashlight... We wanted the environment to feel like there was a power outage... As a DP, I wanted enough on my neg to have detail and options without unwanted noise...

I have plenty of noiseless options to knock this down this weekend in the grade!

Shawn Bannon
07-26-2013, 02:34 AM
Thanks for posting this. Awesome! 6k anamorphic, heck yes!!!

luigivaltulini
07-26-2013, 02:37 AM
This a pic that Phil shot of the 9" Red touch screen monitor on the camera while we were shooting... It's abstract enough that I think I can safely post it here...

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redDragonTestShoot_07_11_2013/bigs/desertDragonShoot_0050.jpg

What's funny is I always try to shoot for as little noise as possible... Often lnding at 500 or 640 ISO...

Here I was trying to make it dark but the Dragon is so sensitive you really need to rethink your ideas about lighting! The governing factor on this shot was the intensity of the flashlight... At ISO 1500 and 1600, I would have had to futz with NDing the flashlight... We wanted the environment to feel like there was a power outage... As a DP, I wanted enough on my neg to have detail and options without unwanted noise...

I have plenty of noiseless options to knock this down this weekend in the grade!



wowowowow Dragooonnnnnn

Christopher Probst
07-26-2013, 02:37 AM
Yea, there's a lot of cool things going on in that monitor!

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 02:37 AM
Histogram, goal posts, comments and the image tell a lot. Excited to see the actual.

Basically, you're seeing in the dark with a bright ass practical shining in your lens. Awesome!

Why is there no spike on the flashlight? Or am I missing something. Or am I seeing it? Holy $hit. At ISO 1280!

Dustin Veneman
07-26-2013, 02:38 AM
looks nice from what I can see! Would eventually like to see r3d with face skin tones in daylight with no makeup no diffusion...

Adam Beck
07-26-2013, 02:39 AM
As a DP, I wanted enough on my neg to have detail and options without unwanted noise...



Sorry Chris if this a stupid question, but are you saying that you are exposing at a stop that holds the details without having to crush the blacks to avoid noise and wanting the option of crushing the blacks later to change the mood a bit if needed?

Christopher Probst
07-26-2013, 02:44 AM
As long as highlight detail doesn't clip, my dark scenes are always exposed brighter than intended and with a suitably low ISO as the lighting conditions allow. The further you separate your image from any "noise floor" the cleaner the end result will be and the more range (and bits of actual data) for manipulation...

That MX and Dragon are extremely clean to begin with is just a bonus...

luigivaltulini
07-26-2013, 02:50 AM
As long as highlight detail doesn't clip, my dark scenes are always exposed brighter than intended and with a suitably low ISO as the lighting conditions allow. The further you separate your image from any "noise floor" the cleaner the end result will be and the more range (and bits of actual data) for manipulation...

That MX and Dragon are extremely clean to begin with is just a bonus...

Chris, another picssssss pleaseeeeeeeeee.:biggrin:

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 02:53 AM
Trying to ignore the monitor's image (to a degree) and instead focus on the data, and your description of the scene. DR like no other. I actually wrote something else, but I decided I don't want to sully this rather momentous occasion, or have my Eureka moment be a trail of expletives!!!

Dragon is nothing short of OMG. Whoa.

Phil Holland
07-26-2013, 02:54 AM
This a pic that Phil shot of the 9" Red touch screen monitor on the camera while we were shooting... It's abstract enough that I think I can safely post it here...

It's been funny. Since that shoot "many" folks have emailed and called to discuss dynamic range and how flexible latitude could be.

All I can say is when I saw that histogram in a high contrast situation it was "very noticeable".

Between harsh daylight and low light with high contrast like this I was thoroughly impressed.

Can't wait.

Adam Beck
07-26-2013, 02:55 AM
As long as highlight detail doesn't clip, my dark scenes are always exposed brighter than intended and with a suitably low ISO as the lighting conditions allow. The further you separate your image from any "noise floor" the cleaner the end result will be and the more range (and bits of actual data) for manipulation...

That MX and Dragon are extremely clean to begin with is just a bonus...

Thanks Chris, I respect your work and it's great to hear your thought process. (Love this Forum)

I try to expose a stop above metered exposure so I can crush the blacks a little in post. But my thought process is definitely not as developed as yours.

Justin Gum
07-26-2013, 02:55 AM
This a pic that Phil shot of the 9" Red touch screen monitor on the camera while we were shooting... It's abstract enough that I think I can safely post it here...

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redDragonTestShoot_07_11_2013/bigs/desertDragonShoot_0050.jpg

What's funny is I always try to shoot for as little noise as possible... Often lnding at 500 or 640 ISO...

Here I was trying to make it dark but the Dragon is so sensitive you really need to rethink your ideas about lighting! The governing factor on this shot was the intensity of the flashlight... At ISO 1500 and 1600, I would have had to futz with NDing the flashlight... We wanted the environment to feel like there was a power outage... As a DP, I wanted enough on my neg to have detail and options without unwanted noise...

I have plenty of noiseless options to knock this down this weekend in the grade!

Looks amazing! What lens are you shooting with?

Christopher Probst
07-26-2013, 02:59 AM
Speaking of high contrast, I need to play with some of the daylight material to see how it expands the range compared to the same shots from an MX Epic... Busy, busy, but hopefully will get a break to come up for air soon...

Christopher Probst
07-26-2013, 03:00 AM
Looks amazing! What lens are you shooting with?

That's a 75mm Kowa wide open at T2.8...

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 03:06 AM
This is every bit the game changer we've all been waiting for. And I HATE saying that phrase, but THIS -- this is LEGIT. Like someone mentioned earlier (Christopher?), it is time to rethink how we light. Holy crap. Good thing I know some awesome focus pullers. :-D

Thank you RED team...the engineers are absolutely incredible; they deserve a standing ovation.

WFO.

Where is everyone tonight? Wow.

Phil Holland
07-26-2013, 03:21 AM
This is every bit the game changer we've all been waiting for. And I HATE saying that phrase, but THIS -- this is LEGIT.

"Game Changer" is getting tossed around like a hacky sack at Venice Beach.

For me Dragon is more of a "history maker" in my humble opinion.

Nothing out there does what Dragon can do. That's pretty much the simplified version of the whole story.

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 03:29 AM
As long as highlight detail doesn't clip, my dark scenes are always exposed brighter than intended and with a suitably low ISO as the lighting conditions allow. The further you separate your image from any "noise floor" the cleaner the end result will be and the more range (and bits of actual data) for manipulation...

That MX and Dragon are extremely clean to begin with is just a bonus...

Thank you for sharing your approach, Christopher. Makes perfect sense. And it's what Jim has been saying all along, "Protect the highlights."

Now it's a matter of protect the highlights as far as comfortable to the right (sans clipping), and then you'll have more room in the floor -- plenty of detail, and avoid the noise. There's that much range -- oh, I get it. And I'm READY FOR IT.

And that knee is looking smooth as butter.

It's just a shame that so many people DO NOT get it. I have a buddy shooting a feature on a GH2 -- when I have an EPIC. Que sera sera.

Sanjin Jukic
07-26-2013, 03:29 AM
This a pic that Phil shot of the 9" Red touch screen monitor on the camera while we were shooting... It's abstract enough that I think I can safely post it here...

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redDragonTestShoot_07_11_2013/bigs/desertDragonShoot_0050.jpg

What's funny is I always try to shoot for as little noise as possible... Often landing at 500 or 640 ISO...

Here I was trying to make it dark but the Dragon is so sensitive you really need to rethink your ideas about lighting! The governing factor on this shot was the intensity of the flashlight... At ISO 1500 and 1600, I would have had to futz with NDing the flashlight... We wanted the environment to feel like there was a power outage... As a DP, I wanted enough on my neg to have detail and options without unwanted noise...

I have plenty of noiseless options to knock this down this weekend in the grade!

That was shot @ ISO 1250 or so!!!? Anyway it looks pretty good!!!

Chris Husz
07-26-2013, 03:30 AM
That shot with the Kowa Looks awesome :)
Maybe old lenses will be rediscovered with the abilities of the digital workflow

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 03:30 AM
"Game Changer" is getting tossed around like a hacky sack at Venice Beach.

For me Dragon is more of a "history maker" in my humble opinion.

Nothing out there does what Dragon can do. That's pretty much the simplified version of the whole story.

You're completely right, Phil. It's not a strong enough statement. I'm still up at 3:30 in the AM, running on fumes and staring at an image on a monitor -- yeah, I get it.

Peter Karlsson
07-26-2013, 03:37 AM
Since the Dragon took a while longer to tame than expected, have you had time to arrange so RED UK will be able to handle the upgrade aswell (not send cameras back and forth to US)?

Martin Stevens
07-26-2013, 03:47 AM
Every once in awhile the hard work and endless effort seems to pay off. This is one of those times.

You get to a place that satisfies all your effort. Then it is time to move on to the next milestone.

I'm happy to take a brief moment to celebrate here... the Dragon. It is everything we hoped it would be...

Jim

Congratulations Jim! You are a true inspiration!

Freya
07-26-2013, 03:49 AM
One major league production was going to shoot EPIC MX for everything except the "wide vistas"... and use 6K Dragon on those. After viewing his tests... the project will go 100% Dragon. It is a 20 camera shoot.
Jim

Would love to hear more about this. :)

Am I right to think that at first they were thinking in terms of just the resolution and that the 6K would give extra ooomph to the wide shots but once they got a hold of it they realised the dragon sensor was a quantum leap in other ways than resolution and decided they had to use it for everything?

Was there a lot of low light shooting?

Freya

Tom Gleeson
07-26-2013, 03:59 AM
Dragon has the potential to be cinemagraphic milestone. Will this be the camera that finally outperforms film acquisition? Epic MX and Alexa have created images that have been close enough to film that it has been hard to rationalise the extra cost of film production unless on A grade budget. Now there may be a camera that will outperform film acquisition on multiple levels. We need to see Dragon images in a whole range of situations before declaring a new King but I suspect the inevitable day may be arriving very soon.

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 04:14 AM
No more teasers tonight? Okay, I'm out, so I can get up in an hour. Haha. Night...and many congratulations! It'll be tough to sleep tonight.

This is birth of cinema stuff...1895 to 2013. So cool. Glad I lived to see it (among other things, of course). :)

Dr. Sassi
07-26-2013, 06:24 AM
Congratulations! ... and to the team that will have the pleasure to shoot with 20 Dragons -- I send my best wishes. (Can't wait to see it on the screen).

Michael Dalton
07-26-2013, 06:27 AM
Part of me doesn't want to see Dragon yet. I'm still marvelling at my Epic. :thumbsup:

I hear ya bob! Though I rather like dragons, and always wanted to own one.

David Battistella
07-26-2013, 06:44 AM
For me Dragon is more of a "history maker" in my humble opinion.

Nothing out there does what Dragon can do. That's pretty much the simplified version of the whole story.

but the very best thing is that you have seen and we are about to see generation 1 of this. Given REds amazing track record at making things better, it's so great to know that they will just keep making it better!

thanks for your work here in recent weeks Phil, it's been a pleasure reading your posts.

jim et all.

Way to go. It's like revving the engine in garage when you've started it up for the first time after working on it all winter. Just want to get it on the open road.

David

Justin Kirchhoff
07-26-2013, 06:52 AM
For me Dragon is more of a "history maker" in my humble opinion.



I like this so much I'm going to steal it.

Elsie N
07-26-2013, 07:14 AM
Speaking of high contrast, I need to play with some of the daylight material to see how it expands the range compared to the same shots from an MX Epic... Busy, busy, but hopefully will get a break to come up for air soon...


"Game Changer" is getting tossed around like a hacky sack at Venice Beach.

For me Dragon is more of a "history maker" in my humble opinion.

Nothing out there does what Dragon can do. That's pretty much the simplified version of the whole story.

Chris or Phil, in the shot of the touchscreen it appears the temp was running pretty low. Jarred said the Dragon loves heat. Do you get the sense that Dragon footage will look better when shot at a higher temp? And what about black shading?... any difference in requirements or how that is handled on the MX sensor and the Dragon?

Jeff Kilgroe
07-26-2013, 07:15 AM
Does this mean the 6x4.5 is next? Huh? Huh?

Hey, Bettsy! Haven't seen you around in a while. :)

And I second that question. I've been dreaming of that EPIC 645 ever since it was first mentioned/ announced....

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 09:42 AM
Damn it, Jim...

I know that other thread was getting outta hand, but some people need to lighten up. Really bad. You're good. You have not "encouraged" anyone, and there was little need for an apology. But you're gracious for offering it. Sad that our society is so -- simple.

Anyway -- back to DRAGON. Sorry guys, I got a little pissed at a certain troll.

Phil Holland
07-26-2013, 09:43 AM
Chris or Phil, in the shot of the touchscreen it appears the temp was running pretty low. Jarred said the Dragon loves heat. Do you get the sense that Dragon footage will look better when shot at a higher temp? And what about black shading?... any difference in requirements or how that is handled on the MX sensor and the Dragon?

Well I'll jump in on this one. In terms of image performance and what's better at what temp "exactly", well I know I haven't been around it enough to know anything really.

Now on to black shading and high temperature operation.

Chris's shoot was outside and in the desert somewhere between 98 and 105 degrees. The Dragon handled that just fine.

We did fire off a black shade in probably the strangest place that a Red camera has ever been black shaded, which if I recall correctly was in the 9-ish minute realm. Nice and snappy really.

Theoretically, and perhaps this might be my opinion as well, between new fans and fan algorithms with the added sensor heater tossed in there; there might be less reason to black shade "that much" if the sensor temperature is so regulated by the harmony of all that tech. And honestly, I don't need to black shade all that often now.

Will Keir
07-26-2013, 09:50 AM
excellent news, keep up the good work guys!

Does this mean there is an updated timeframe for the early adopters to get their upgrades? Some kind of idea? Still September?


Jarred and I have been posting at the end of another but this news probably deserves its own thread.

The Dragon is out of the lab and in the hands of trained professionals. So far, the feedback is everything we had hoped to hear.

One major league production was going to shoot EPIC MX for everything except the "wide vistas"... and use 6K Dragon on those. After viewing his tests... the project will go 100% Dragon. It is a 20 camera shoot.

Jim

Elsie N
07-26-2013, 09:58 AM
...
Does this mean there is an updated timeframe for the early adopters to get their upgrades? Some kind of idea? Still September?

Will, by early adopters do you mean those who got their cameras first or those who signed up for the upgrades first? I know that some, including you, got the Red Ray Players early on (and I assume you signed up early.)

The last I heard they were doing upgrades based on the order in which people signed up, so I guess that would qualify as early adopters as many on here said they were going to wait until they saw pictures or footage before signing up. That would put them in the category of late adopters, I would think, no matter what their camera number. '-)

And yes, somewhere Jim stated that upgrades were still on schedule for September.

Alexey Datsenko
07-26-2013, 10:06 AM
Pardon me guys, I know you love your Dragon but...
6K (5k at MX), 120 fps at 5K (96 at MX), dynamic range in 16,5 stops (+ 3 stops according to MX) it is cool of course but
Do these advantages really cost the half price of the Epic,
For example I can buy 2 Dragons for two Epics MX or buy 1 Epic MX.
Or is it for top filmmakers

Elsie N
07-26-2013, 10:10 AM
Pardon me guys, I know you love your Dragon but...
6K (5k at MX), 120 fps at 5K (96 at MX), dynamic range in 16,5 stops (+ 3 stops according to MX) it is cool of course but
Do these advantages really cost the half price of the Epic,
For example I can buy 2 Dragons for two Epics MX or buy 1 Epic MX.

All good points Alexey, but I think it comes down to quantity vs quality. And that has to be decided from a personal perspective.

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 10:13 AM
And honestly, I don't need to black shade all that often now.

I have found, as others have noted, that BS only needs to be done should the environment change drastically. I've never encountered any issues under a variety of conditions...studio, and in the field. In Coachella Valley recently, we did it as a precaution, but the variance between INT and EXT was pretty extreme. Plan for it, and perform while resetting -- you're good. If the calibration time has been brought down further, there's even less to worry about.

Just my personal assessment.

Sean Cruser
07-26-2013, 10:22 AM
All of this. SO GREAT. Cannot WAIT to get some R3D's to play with.

Vadim Bobkovsky
07-26-2013, 10:22 AM
Some other companies would gladly demand two times the price of an Epic for that in a new camera body, IMO. Better sensitivity, lower noise floor and native highlight protection alone are priceless points in my book. Last time I checked, F65 and Alexa with recorder were a little bit more expensive than Epic, though I may be wrong.

shawn greene
07-26-2013, 10:23 AM
Thank you. For all the hard work and innovation...

Christopher Probst
07-26-2013, 10:28 AM
Current versions of RedCineX will not open Dragon r3ds, so that won't be possible for the immediate future.

Mike P.
07-26-2013, 10:40 AM
Current versions of RedCineX will not open Dragon r3ds, so that won't be possible for the immediate future.

Presumably the proper RCX would be released at the same time.

In either case, I think most (okay, maybe just me) would be satiated (for a couple of days anyway) with a still, and then a BTS still showing the exact lighting set-up used... We already have a BTS shot of you wearing a shirt-covered hip-light, now all we need is the Dragon image that the set up created :)

Andy Roberts
07-26-2013, 10:53 AM
Do these advantages really cost the half price of the Epic,
For example I can buy 2 Dragons for two Epics MX or buy 1 Epic MX. Or is it for top filmmakers

I'm FAR FAR from a top filmmaker. I'm BARELY a professional filmmaker or photographer. YET EVEN I think the Dragon sensor is worth it. THREE MORE STOPS of DR is huge.
I was testing with my Epic last night, exposing a high contrast scene at f8, protecting the highlights. 3 extra stops is being able to get all the shadow detail as if I was exposing at f2.8.
So that is what I did, I dropped it to f2.8 to see the detail in the shadows come alive. The camera will truly capture what my eyes see versus some compromise between shadow and highlight. Lighting will be become, I believe, much more about creative choices and less about exposure balancing. On DR alone, Red has accomplished a monumental feat.

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 11:03 AM
I'm FAR FAR from a top filmmaker. I'm BARELY a professional filmmaker or photographer. YET EVEN I think the Dragon sensor is worth it. THREE MORE STOPS of DR is huge.
I was testing with my Epic last night, exposing a high contrast scene at f8, protecting the highlights. 3 extra stops is being able to get all the shadow detail as if I was exposing at f2.8.
So that is what I did, I dropped it to f2.8 to see the detail in the shadows come alive. The camera will truly capture what my eyes see versus some compromise between shadow and highlight. Lighting will be become, I believe, much more about creative choices and less about exposure balancing. On DR alone, Red has accomplished a monumental feat.

Finally. Succinct. I stated the same, but we have to keep expressing this from twenty different angles.

Apparently, we don't need to be "top" filmmakers anymore. You're just a filmmaker. Period. If you know what you're doing (IMO -- you've got it), or your methods work to achieve the results you want, what more is there? Now we can focus on things like character, and developing story. Produce the most accomplished image you desire/can achieve within your means and know-how. No longer governed by the tool.

Filmmaking has already been very interesting for quite awhile, but it's about to go PLAID.

And that was all meant with the highest regard to you, Andy. I like your humility. In my experience, the humble peeps are typically the dopest filmmakers. Not that I'm anyone. I'm not. :)

Alain M
07-26-2013, 11:11 AM
Congratulations Jim. Any chance you will provide a side-by-side comparison stills to play with and see the true difference between MX and DRAGON?

Thanks!

Alain M

Andy Roberts
07-26-2013, 11:32 AM
Not that I'm anyone. I'm not. :)

Thanks. I like your energy Eryc.

Alain M
07-26-2013, 11:41 AM
I am about to shoot a film. the budget is very low, but with a lot of help and favors to make a great production with RED Scarlet. lights and DR capabilities always are important, and I agree with Eryc and most of you that all these add features will always help the little guys...the big guys can spend a lot of money to compensate high contrast situations, low light environments, etc. But the little guys having that huge ISO range with no noise and DR is amazing and will keep us focused on the Character, the delievery of the lines, the emotional touch of each scene., and save us tons of $$$ in setup as well.

My honest humble opinion, and proud to be part of this historic RED Volution

Alain M

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 11:49 AM
Thanks. I like your energy Eryc.

:-D

Dude, this is real-time Lumiére Bros, stuff -- likely the rebirth of cinema, or a SIGNIFICANT milestone at the VERY least. To paraphrase Phil, "This is not game changing, this is history making."

I know there are many that might be put off by my unbridled enthusiasm, but so what? Last I checked, they're not paying my bills. And if I have to listen to their rampant speculation, ad infinitum -- well, now it's time to PARTY for a bit. I've been a member since '07, reading since launch, and a supporter in spirit since birth.

RDC's about to drop the goods, and they're excited about it. And I'm excited that they're excited, and happy to let them know it.

I'm willing to bet money on it that they can hardly contain themselves. :)

And thanks for saying so. Greatly appreciated.

Blair S. Paulsen
07-26-2013, 12:39 PM
In camera world RED is indeed making history, and, as others have noted, we are riding on the shoulders of giants and (tortured analogy alert) shooting the curl.

When confronted by the realization that the only limitation is your talent, then you get to find out just how much you believe in yourself - and that's scary territory for most of us.

Yes, content is king - technology without vision and talent is pointless - stipulated. That said, I've been fortunate enough to capture some amazing images over the years, some of which make me cringe years later due to the technical limitations of the medium I was working in that day. My enthusiasm for Dragon might not match Eryc's ;-), but I am very pumped to think that everything I shoot the rest of my life will stand on its artistic merits without the technical equivalent of an asterisk.

In terms of what matters to me, that's a huge gift - sincere thanks to Jim and the RedTeam.

Cheers - #19

Robert Ruffo New
07-26-2013, 12:47 PM
Pardon me guys, I know you love your Dragon but...
6K (5k at MX), 120 fps at 5K (96 at MX), dynamic range in 16,5 stops (+ 3 stops according to MX) it is cool of course but
Do these advantages really cost the half price of the Epic,
For example I can buy 2 Dragons for two Epics MX or buy 1 Epic MX.
Or is it for top filmmakers

The way the business is - the last 20% of quality earns you 200% more money. Same goes with tools. Same goes with many things. A $100 000 pair of speakers is maybe 20% better than a well chosen $1000 pair of speakers. People who want the very best (clients) are often happily willing to pay for it.

Another word of warning: there is no more middle class in this business. You can be at the top, or at the bottom, in terms of how you shoot. The bottom is not a happy place.

paul schefz
07-26-2013, 12:49 PM
Current versions of RedCineX will not open Dragon r3ds, so that won't be possible for the immediate future.

future version of RCX...maybe with some kind of GPU acceleration?

Elsie N
07-26-2013, 12:56 PM
...

Yes, content is king - technology without vision and talent is pointless - stipulated. That said, I've been fortunate enough to capture some amazing images over the years, some of which make me cringe years later due to the technical limitations of the medium I was working in that day. My enthusiasm for Dragon might not match Eryc's ;-), but I am very pumped to think that everything I shoot the rest of my life will stand on its artistic merits without the technical equivalent of an asterisk.

In terms of what matters to me, that's a huge gift - sincere thanks to Jim and the RedTeam.

Cheers - #19

I recently dug up some old SD footage recorded to VHS. I remember when I finished that project how proud I was of my accomplishment. I only watched a few minutes before stopping the tape player and putting the VHS cassette away. Watching it again just ruined the feel good memory of what I had been so proud of before.

+1 on what you said.

Elsie N
07-26-2013, 12:57 PM
Current versions of RedCineX will not open Dragon r3ds, so that won't be possible for the immediate future.

Have you tried the Alpha version?

Jarred Land
07-26-2013, 01:50 PM
Well I'll jump in on this one. In terms of image performance and what's better at what temp "exactly", well I know I haven't been around it enough to know anything really.

Now on to black shading and high temperature operation.

Chris's shoot was outside and in the desert somewhere between 98 and 105 degrees. The Dragon handled that just fine.

We did fire off a black shade in probably the strangest place that a Red camera has ever been black shaded, which if I recall correctly was in the 9-ish minute realm. Nice and snappy really.

Theoretically, and perhaps this might be my opinion as well, between new fans and fan algorithms with the added sensor heater tossed in there; there might be less reason to black shade "that much" if the sensor temperature is so regulated by the harmony of all that tech. And honestly, I don't need to black shade all that often now.


correct. You don't need to, but if you have the time it doesn't hurt to do a black shade if you can in new environments.. even if the differences in terms of image quality are so small you can't really tell.

And remember when you do blackshade.. do it after the camera warms up in the environment . if you do it at the start of the day in an air conditioned truck, then take it out into a 100 degree desert, you kinda defeat the purpose ;)

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 02:03 PM
In camera world RED is indeed making history, and, as others have noted, we are riding on the shoulders of giants and (tortured analogy alert) shooting the curl.

When confronted by the realization that the only limitation is your talent, then you get to find out just how much you believe in yourself - and that's scary territory for most of us.

Yes, content is king - technology without vision and talent is pointless - stipulated. That said, I've been fortunate enough to capture some amazing images over the years, some of which make me cringe years later due to the technical limitations of the medium I was working in that day. My enthusiasm for Dragon might not match Eryc's ;-), but I am very pumped to think that everything I shoot the rest of my life will stand on its artistic merits without the technical equivalent of an asterisk.

In terms of what matters to me, that's a huge gift - sincere thanks to Jim and the RedTeam.

Cheers - #19

Love you, too, Blair. Hahaha. I could not have said it better. I have been dreaming of this day since 1999. I could almost tell you the day -- I was just departing a certain SoCal institution of cinematic learning. I had "crazy" thoughts about what should be done to revolutionize filmmaking.

And at the end of it all, once all the technical hurdles were felled, we would be left with one thing: democratization. Sure, this is an extremely subjective art-form, but things are already changing for the better. Stories will be told that never would have seen the light of day. For example, I would LOVE to see a film about the struggle of the Marikana Miners. From their perspective. Not from Robert Downey, Jr.'s perspective as the punchy reporter covering the events. I'm not trying to make Stander. I want to see the struggle inside the camps -- to impart that desperation in a very real, unflinching sense, to the world. Now, a filmmaker could conceivably do it on their own. We have palm-able 35mm motion picture cameras, with unlimited spools of film, enough sensitivity and DR to render by candlelight, and it's all recorded as metadata. Yeah, I'm EXCITED.

I have been fortunate enough to usher projects through some of the most posh studios, and finishing rooms on this planet -- literally. Major studios. But I couldn't help but feel like I might never have the opportunity to push my own projects through those hallowed walls. Irrespective of how creative you may be, you're only doing what you're doing at this moment, but luckily "fortune shines on the bold." Ha. Obviously, not everyone gets to construct films at that level, but the point is that now we don't have to. RED gave me the courage to take a leap of faith years ago, and now we laugh about being able to post features from our bedrooms. Could other situations, or cameras have served as the impetus for my actions? Sure. But they didn't.

Anyway, that's part of my little narrative and why Jim, et al, are the COOLEST peeps on the planet for me. Yes, I'm ramped up. But shouldn't we all be? Plus, these guys have done nothing shy of show us all genuine altruism. They're real people. Hardworking individuals, fighting the good fight and fulfilling the impossible dream. That's why things can get a little heated on here at times. No one is going to waltz in this house, start verbally abusing friends and think they are going to walk out of it. :)

Phil Holland
07-26-2013, 02:06 PM
And remember when you do blackshade.. do it after the camera warms up in the environment . if you do it at the start of the day in an air conditioned truck, then take it out into a 100 degree desert, you kinda defeat the purpose ;)

Earlier in the day we waited to get it up to temp in the dry desert heat and placed it inside a large beat up freight container at the junkyard (for the darkness, but pretty much desert hot).

I would say this could have been considered a moderate extreme condition (we didn't even shade the camera during shooting) and the camera did great.

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 02:22 PM
correct. You don't need to, but if you have the time it doesn't hurt to do a black shade if you can in new environments.. even if the differences in terms of image quality are so small you can't really tell.

And remember when you do blackshade.. do it after the camera warms up in the environment . if you do it at the start of the day in an air conditioned truck, then take it out into a 100 degree desert, you kinda defeat the purpose ;)

Exactly the tact I recently took. Blackshaded in the AM before start. Then later in the day we went from air conditioned comfort to sweltering, desert inferno in a few steps. EPIC was shading on the camera cart once it was up to temp outside. Approx 12 minutes later, we were back up on sticks and tweaking. God love it. And thank you. No issues whatsoever. No fan "problems." No ice packs. I can't even recall if we flagged cam -- I think just slight shade. And we were shooting dialogue -- long take interviews at that.

Just flawless performance.

Andrew Benz
07-26-2013, 02:38 PM
Current versions of RedCineX will not open Dragon r3ds, so that won't be possible for the immediate future.

You do understand that this is always the case when RED upgrades sensors, so no worries... I am sure Jarred and the Team will take great care of you, otherwise you never would have gotten the camera to test with in the first place. The whole "... won't be possible for the immediate future." is jumping the gun and how the negative rumors get started. Just my 2 cents from first hand experience in the past. Jarred also always had a solution just one email away.

Andrew Benz
07-26-2013, 03:15 PM
I know Christopher's going to clarify his statement but I'm going to go ahead and say I think you misunderstood his meaning. I'm sure HE has access to a version of Redcine-X that will read the r3ds, otherwise he'd have footage that was unusable.

What he was saying was, until a new version of RCX gets released that does read Dragon files, the r3ds from his shoot and others won't do anyone else any good. He was responding to people who wanted r3ds to play with...like yesterday.

Dragon is set to arrive in September and a new RCX release may take that long to show up. Or, it could be 2 weeks from now, but probably not tomorrow.

That was my take-away from his comment.

I am not misunderstanding anything... I am just spelling it out for those that like to pick on RED. Just clarifying things. Cool?

Chris McKechnie
07-26-2013, 03:29 PM
Dragon's fire will reach so far and to so many things, turning RED's competition to ash. Who said 4K is the new standard? 6K baby.

Brian Boyer
07-26-2013, 03:39 PM
Cool?

Always.

Robert Ruffo New
07-26-2013, 03:40 PM
Dragon's fire will reach so far and to so many things, turning RED's competition to ash. Who said 4K is the new standard? 6K baby.

I think resolution is an overstated factor here. What most working DPs, including me, actually care about is dynamic range and color - these both appear to be stellar on the Dragon. Faster blackshade that needs to be refreshed less often is also very, very important. Honestly 5K was more than enough, 6K annoying. I have zero interest in "future proofing' the music videos, fashion videos and commercials we shoot, which have a 2 year shelf life at the very most - 5K is even enough resolution for stills, and pushes the limits of most of our preferred lenses. So 6K is of no interest whatsoever to me, nor would I imagine to many other redusers.

Frankly I am glad that Red is now talking more about other factors, because my clients could care less about 6K either, but do want the best color rendition possible and the most trouble-free on-set use for a 1080p master.

jacob.schwarz
07-26-2013, 03:56 PM
Phil do you have any .r3d that you would mind sharing from you low light test.

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 04:00 PM
Phil do you have any .r3d that you would mind sharing from you low light test.

The Dragon r3ds are not compatible with the current version of RedCine-X. Only the beta testers have everything needed to view the files. Now a request for a frame export in RedLogfilm with no curve/LUT could be -- illuminating.

Sarah C.
07-26-2013, 04:04 PM
I almost interviewed for a feature today that used 23+ cameras(2nd unit alone!) last go-around(it is a sequel) I attended. Could be the same as JJ mentioned! Here's to hoping so! Congratulations for whatever movie it is! Beware Panavision, beware THE DRAGON.

Andrew Benz
07-26-2013, 04:26 PM
Always. Thanks man, not trying to be harsh. Cheers.

Blair S. Paulsen
07-26-2013, 04:27 PM
Rank resolution where ye will, I'd wager its in most people's top 5.

If your point is that in the current distribution and display environment the resolution box is already checked by the MX and then some - OK.

IMO better S/N ratio is the holy grail of digital sensor systems, so if the Dragon can add 10db or more vs MX it's worth the cost right there.

FWIW most empirical studies show color rendition as the most significant attribute when participants are polled about their perceptions of image quality. It is my belief that working with a sensor designed from the ground up for digital cinema will give Graeme a RAW (sic) data set from which his algorithms can generate purer colors. This expectation is my number one reason for believing that Dragon will meaningfully advance the state of the art.

Disclaimer: I really like highly detailed wide shots so I'm actually pretty geeked up over the 6K thing, but I do understand that's a personal problem for which Dragon therapy is my only hope ;-)

Cheers - #19

Tom Gleeson
07-26-2013, 04:36 PM
Current versions of RedCineX will not open Dragon r3ds, so that won't be possible for the immediate future.

If Dragon R3D do not play in RedCineX are they not going to play in Resolve, Baselight, Premiere Pro etc. Are they all going to need a software revision? Hope not.

Blair S. Paulsen
07-26-2013, 04:53 PM
If Dragon R3D do not play in RedCineX are they not going to play in Resolve, Baselight, Premiere Pro etc. Are they all going to need a software revision? Hope not.

I'm not a coder but AFAIK an updated plug-in should be all that's needed. Hopefully by now RED and the major NLE/DI/etc vendors have done enough of these revisions that it will be a relatively fast and painless process. If not, somebody's got some 'splainin' to do ;-) (oblique reference to the fact that RED Studios Hollywood was once the soundstage where "I Love Lucy" was shot).

Cheers - #19

Phil Holland
07-26-2013, 04:55 PM
Phil do you have any .r3d that you would mind sharing from you low light test.

Very likely the first .R3Ds from Dragon you'll see will come from Red and there will be a "crispy fresh" version of Red Cine-X Pro to accompany it.

I would personally expect to see a .jpg (which we have, but from an early camera and color science) or perhaps a .tif if Jarred is feeling generous :)



Are they all going to need a software revision? Hope not.

From what I understand Dragon has new blood flowing beneath it's REDCODE, mainly in the form of color science. Importers, plugins, etc. will need to update. Hopefully, because this isn't the first time around the block it will be a speedier concept than in the past. That's going to primarily be up to the 3rd party folks once they get the details.

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 05:00 PM
I'm not a coder but AFAIK an updated plug-in should be all that's needed. Hopefully by now RED and the major NLE/DI/etc vendors have done enough of these revisions that it will be a relatively fast and painless process. If not, somebody's got some 'splainin' to do ;-) (oblique reference to the fact that RED Studios Hollywood was once the soundstage where "I Love Lucy" was shot).

Cheers - #19

No 'splainin' necessary, Desilu.

Robert Ruffo New
07-26-2013, 05:36 PM
Rank resolution where ye will, I'd wager its in most people's top 5.

If your point is that in the current distribution and display environment the resolution box is already checked by the MX and then some - OK.

IMO better S/N ratio is the holy grail of digital sensor systems, so if the Dragon can add 10db or more vs MX it's worth the cost right there.

FWIW most empirical studies show color rendition as the most significant attribute when participants are polled about their perceptions of image quality. It is my belief that working with a sensor designed from the ground up for digital cinema will give Graeme a RAW (sic) data set from which his algorithms can generate purer colors. This expectation is my number one reason for believing that Dragon will meaningfully advance the state of the art.

Disclaimer: I really like highly detailed wide shots so I'm actually pretty geeked up over the 6K thing, but I do understand that's a personal problem for which Dragon therapy is my only hope ;-)

Cheers - #19

i agree with you. Yes I am saying MX is "more than enough". 6K landscapes can be as detailed as you like, but when it comes to magazines (stills) teh page print only has so much details and TV/web 1080p can be very, very good 1080p at times, but it's never more than that, so more than 5K becomes overkill. No one will ever see it but you.

Maybe in 5 years that will change, but we buy our cameras for here and now, and maybe 2 years ahead.

Other factors make Dragon very exciting - resolution not really, I think, for most people as most people don't make features destined for Imax screens

Tom Gleeson
07-26-2013, 05:41 PM
I'm not a coder but AFAIK an updated plug-in should be all that's needed. Hopefully by now RED and the major NLE/DI/etc vendors have done enough of these revisions that it will be a relatively fast and painless process.

Cheers - #19


Lets hope that Red and the Third party vendors are on to it as a smooth transition is vital as Red already has a (underserved) reputation for being complicated in Post. Fingers crossed Blackmagic and Resolve are one of the first. If you can't post it you can't shoot it

Shane Betts
07-26-2013, 05:52 PM
Hey, Bettsy! Haven't seen you around in a while. :)

And I second that question. I've been dreaming of that EPIC 645 ever since it was first mentioned/ announced....

Hey Jeff! I pop in from time to time but life has taken many turns. Still watching the Red dream from a distance though.

Christopher Probst
07-26-2013, 06:00 PM
You do understand that this is always the case when RED upgrades sensors, so no worries... I am sure Jarred and the Team will take great care of you, otherwise you never would have gotten the camera to test with in the first place. The whole "... won't be possible for the immediate future." is jumping the gun and how the negative rumors get started. Just my 2 cents from first hand experience in the past. Jarred also always had a solution just one email away.

Do you think I would blindly go into a shoot without confirming a workflow strategy for the material... Especially in light of using a prototype camera? Do you also think that Jarred would have given up their new flagship camera without supporting the beta testers? I am well aware of how Red upgrades their cameras, sensors ect. However, being given the opportunity to be one of the first to try the Dragon, it is not my place to divulge any proprietary information prior to when Red would like that info revealed.

I am trying to uphold my end of the bargain and respect Jarred's control of the rolling out of this benchmark product. I will only reaffirm that an r3d from these prototype Dragon cameras will not play on any of current public version of RedCineX. Therefore no r3ds from my shoot will be posted by me.

Andrew Benz
07-26-2013, 06:13 PM
Do you think I would blindly go into a shoot without confirming a workflow strategy for the material... Especially in light of using a prototype camera? Do you also think that Jarred would have given up their new flagship camera without supporting the beta testers? I am well aware of how Red upgrades their cameras, sensors ect. However, being given the opportunity to be one of the first to try the Dragon, it is not my place to divulge any proprietary information prior to when Red would like that info revealed.

I am trying to uphold my end of the bargain and respect Jarred's control of the rolling out of this benchmark product. I will only reaffirm that an r3d from these prototype Dragon cameras will not play on any of current public version of RedCineX. Therefore no r3ds from my shoot will be posted by me.

OK Chris... I am not trying to turn this into a pissing contest but I have had more than one person of significance point directly to your post as proof that the Dragon was not ready for primetime so don't shoot the messenger.

Brian Merlen
07-26-2013, 06:24 PM
Do you think I would blindly go into a shoot without confirming a workflow strategy for the material... Especially in light of using a prototype camera? Do you also think that Jarred would have given up their new flagship camera without supporting the beta testers? I am well aware of how Red upgrades their cameras, sensors ect. However, being given the opportunity to be one of the first to try the Dragon, it is not my place to divulge any proprietary information prior to when Red would like that info revealed.

I am trying to uphold my end of the bargain and respect Jarred's control of the rolling out of this benchmark product. I will only reaffirm that an r3d from these prototype Dragon cameras will not play on any of current public version of RedCineX. Therefore no r3ds from my shoot will be posted by me.


Wish I had known you were about to shoot on Dragon. I would of paid you even more for that mag LOL!

Christopher Probst
07-26-2013, 06:36 PM
OK Chris... I am not trying to turn this into a pissing contest but I have had more than one person of significance point directly to your post as proof that the Dragon was not ready for primetime so don't shoot the messenger.

The real issue is everyone reading into every single word and over analyzing and twisting the context to their own desires... When the camera is released, we can all discuss and debate its merits... Until then, patience!

Nick Morrison
07-26-2013, 06:57 PM
OK Chris... I am not trying to turn this into a pissing contest but I have had more than one person of significance point directly to your post as proof that the Dragon was not ready for primetime so don't shoot the messenger.

Sounds like people looking for problems. All I know is on Christopher's touch screen showed he was shooting 6k at 1200 ISO at it looked like he has a couple of more stops to play with!!! (his histogram was to the left). WOW!!!

Brian Merlen
07-26-2013, 07:11 PM
im not sure why people would even think a workflow isn't in place...reds had a good workflow in place for like 5 years now...they update the SDK and boom Dragon works with all the third party apps. the non released beta is obviously working just fine...just like the camera...its just going to not be released until they do more extensive testing... and use it on some big name projects first...

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 07:16 PM
i agree with you. Yes I am saying MX is "more than enough".

Could not agree more. However, it all depends on how you intend to use the tool. There are a number of areas where having the headroom of 6K will work out awesome for a 4k, or 2K finish. I'm sure everyone has thought about or heard those reasons here many times over.


6K landscapes can be as detailed as you like, but when it comes to magazines (stills) teh page print only has so much details and TV/web 1080p can be very, very good 1080p at times, but it's never more than that, so more than 5K becomes overkill. No one will ever see it but you.

True, for delivery via current platforms. But obviously there are already nascent delivery mechanisms that will cater to UHD content.


Maybe in 5 years that will change, but we buy our cameras for here and now, and maybe 2 years ahead.

I actually bought mine for current use, and with an eye toward the future. With the UHD standard only just reaching consumers, it appears safe to say we are ahead of the curve. Not to mention RED has exhibited a slight slant toward customer care, and propelling the concept of "obsolescence obsolete." If one cannot afford the outlay, yet does not intend to think of the camera as a tool or plan to use it in the support of earning capital, then there may be a problem for that owner.

As for the camera itself, I would prefer the best S/N ratio the sensor can muster, the widest gamut possible (within given color space limitations), the most DR RED can eke out and at the highest resolution. My next statement really depends on the end goal for your material, but: Why not future proof? After all, we're ultimately talking about the value that can be attached to IP, so if I am going to invest time, finance, AND passion into any undertaking, I would prefer that the resultant content remain usable into as distant a future as possible.

And solutions abound for every configuration imaginable. There are proxy recorders that further expand capability. And these options are/will be available from both RED and 3rd party suppliers (as you are undoubtedly aware). In the end, I would rather have the functionality and not need it, than need it and not have it. But that stated, there are cost considerations for every move we make -- just have to be smart and try to project where the bulk of one's earning potential is likely to emanate from.


... most people don't make features destined for Imax screens

Maybe that is solely because most people have never had that opportunity.

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 07:27 PM
Sounds like people looking for problems. All I know is on Christopher's touch screen showed he was shooting 6k at 1200 ISO at it looked like he has a couple of more stops to play with!!! (his histogram was to the left). WOW!!!


1280.

EXACTLY.

And with a spot source aimed directly at cam -- and look at the SUBJECT'S FACE immediately next to that light bloom. That looks like an impossibly smooth roll off into subject illumination. At first I thought it could be spill from the flashlight, but upon closer inspection, it appears instead to be a secondary source under the spot. (read: lower foot-candles)

Joseph Coleman
07-26-2013, 07:45 PM
I don't understand how the histogram and stop lights are not showing any clipping at all!! If thats the case then Dragon is un-real!

Eryc Tramonn
07-26-2013, 07:52 PM
I don't understand how the histogram and stop lights are not showing any clipping at all!! If thats the case then Dragon is un-real!

That's what I was saying at 4a this morning.

Brian Merlen
07-26-2013, 07:57 PM
+1 for the no clipping amazement! freaked me out! looks like a must have upgrade...

Brook Willard
07-26-2013, 08:50 PM
One major league production was going to shoot EPIC MX for everything except the "wide vistas"... and use 6K Dragon on those. After viewing his tests... the project will go 100% Dragon. It is a 20 camera shoot.

Say, that test rings a bell! And what a perfect location for a resolution/dynamic range test, too...

http://i.imgur.com/s4eBb0I.jpg

Andy Roberts
07-26-2013, 09:01 PM
Say, that test rings a bell! And what a perfect location for a resolution/dynamic range test, too...

http://i.imgur.com/s4eBb0I.jpg

So is that a frame grab from the Dragon, Brook? Is that the sun in top middle frame? If this is a real frame grab, you just gotta supply a higher res version. Like 6K :)

Matt Ryan
07-26-2013, 10:38 PM
This a pic that Phil shot of the 9" Red touch screen monitor on the camera while we were shooting... It's abstract enough that I think I can safely post it here...

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redDragonTestShoot_07_11_2013/bigs/desertDragonShoot_0050.jpg

What's funny is I always try to shoot for as little noise as possible... Often landing at 500 or 640 ISO...

Here I was trying to make it dark but the Dragon is so sensitive you really need to rethink your ideas about lighting! The governing factor on this shot was the intensity of the flashlight... At ISO 1500 and 1600, I would have had to futz with NDing the flashlight... We wanted the environment to feel like there was a power outage... As a DP, I wanted enough on my neg to have detail and options without unwanted noise...

I have plenty of noiseless options to knock this down this weekend in the grade!

I really wan't to see this as an R3D grab if possible. I know it's kind of out of your hands but that would be awesome to see the noise and latitude.

Brook Willard
07-26-2013, 10:42 PM
So is that a frame grab from the Dragon, Brook? Is that the sun in top middle frame? If this is a real frame grab, you just gotta supply a higher res version. Like 6K :)

Heh, nope. It's a cell phone shot. You can see the Dragon on sticks in the bottom of frame.

David Battistella
07-27-2013, 01:04 AM
The real issue is everyone reading into every single word and over analyzing and twisting the context to their own desires... When the camera is released, we can all discuss and debate its merits... Until then, patience!


Hey Christpher,

Nice work. It's great that RED put it in your hands and i know we will be hearing more detailed stuff when the time is right. What blows my mind is that at 1250 iso the highlight of the flashlight doesn't blow out on the histogram. More so, the rest of the image is so bright.

i don't want to see images, i know there are reams of them that will show up, but can you share your initail impressions on how you plan to handle all that DR? More from a cinematography/craft perspective.

david

Asif Limbada
07-27-2013, 02:35 AM
Looks good, no we definitely need to see some R3D grabs...hehehe. T2.8 @ 1250ISO. Awesome.

Freya
07-27-2013, 03:49 AM
OK Chris... I am not trying to turn this into a pissing contest but I have had more than one person of significance point directly to your post as proof that the Dragon was not ready for primetime so don't shoot the messenger.

er, it isn't out yet, so why would anyone expect it to be ready for primetime or anything else?
When it is ready it will be released and it will be ready.

This is exactly why Red have people trying it out now, to catch any last minute things.

Seems straightforward to me.

Freya

Andy Roberts
07-27-2013, 06:14 AM
Heh, nope. It's a cell phone shot. You can see the Dragon on sticks in the bottom of frame.

Well that's a relief. It seemed pretty blown out to me but I didn't want to sound negative just in case. It will be cool to see what the Dragon did see in that scene.

Asif Limbada
07-27-2013, 06:26 AM
You can be negative about it, if its not good. But good call for asking if the picture was taken on DRAGON. hehehe :-)


Well that's a relief. It seemed pretty blown out to me but I didn't want to sound negative just in case. It will be cool to see what the Dragon did see in that scene.

Andy Roberts
07-27-2013, 07:11 AM
You can be negative about it, if its not good. But good call for asking if the picture was taken on DRAGON. hehehe :-)

I generally agree that honest feedback is good... but if I had just bled and sweat for months and years to bring a product out, I think it would be painful to be barraged with negativity. So just out of respect for Red's hard work, I would refrain from public negativity in this case. But of course this is all theoretical since Dragon will not disappoint and that was an iPhone image. It was the strong horizontal aspect ration that fooled me for a bit. :)

Stacey Spears
07-27-2013, 07:58 AM
Yes I am saying MX is "more than enough".

Not sure if it is resolution, or size, but even when scaled to 1080p, nothing looks as good as IMAX. Until RED equals, or exceeds, IMAX I want more resolution and a larger sensor. When the Dark Knight switches from the opening IMAX scene to 35mm, its pretty jarring. The opening is so clean and sharp even at 1080p. Of course in a real IMAX theater it was even more impressive. Then there is Baraka, Grand Canyon Adventure, and Samsara. The latter being shot on 70mm and all three look better than anything I have seen from MX, or any other camera system, even when scaled to 1080p.

I loved my 4k M and my 5k MX, but I anxiously await the 6k from Dragon and look forward to the eventual 9k full frame or whatever it may become. So some of us do want more resolution. My motto is when good enough isn't.

Harcharan Singh
07-27-2013, 10:07 AM
Hi,

In the left hand corner at the bottom of the LCD on the picture of Dragon shooting you can see a small red ;film camera' icon...Does that means RED DRAGON will come with the stills option also and be the perfect DSMC camera....

Just wondering when can we have some R3D grabs...

Harcharan

paul schefz
07-27-2013, 10:46 AM
Hi,

In the left hand corner at the bottom of the LCD on the picture of Dragon shooting you can see a small red ;film camera' icon...Does that means RED DRAGON will come with the stills option also and be the perfect DSMC camera....

Just wondering when can we have some R3D grabs...

Harcharan
noticed that as well and was wondering the same thing....

Andy Roberts
07-27-2013, 10:50 AM
Hi,

In the left hand corner at the bottom of the LCD on the picture of Dragon shooting you can see a small red ;film camera' icon...Does that means RED DRAGON will come with the stills option also and be the perfect DSMC camera....

At the very least, I believe that icon in the lower left is where playback is controlled now... vs. the top left "play arrow"

Andrew Huse
07-27-2013, 11:23 AM
I got an e-mail from Nar Levoni asking me to upgrade to Dragon. I don't feel comfortable dropping $10K on a product that I haven't even seen yet.

Elsie N
07-27-2013, 11:43 AM
I got an e-mail from Nar Levoni asking me to upgrade to Dragon. I don't feel comfortable dropping $10K on a product that I haven't even seen yet.

If one hasn't already signed up for the upgrade yet, I suspect they will see so many images between now and the time their number comes up after finally signing up that they will become sick and tired of everyone with the upgrade in hand showing off THEIR great images. '-)

paul schefz
07-27-2013, 11:46 AM
I got an e-mail from Nar Levoni asking me to upgrade to Dragon. I don't feel comfortable dropping $10K on a product that I haven't even seen yet.
i believe they asked you to get in line for the upgrade...nobody is paying anything before the upgrade is actually happening....nobody is asking you to drop 10k right now....this is not kickstarter...

Andrew Huse
07-27-2013, 12:10 PM
Oh thank god, this is a huuuge relief. I just got off the phone with Steinway. My order for the piano hasent been cancelled yet. But I do need to make a decision if I'm getting dragon very soon. They can't hold it for me for very long.

Scott C
07-27-2013, 12:34 PM
Say, that test rings a bell! And what a perfect location for a resolution/dynamic range test, too...

http://i.imgur.com/s4eBb0I.jpg


Hah, way off topic but what phone did you take that with? My phone camera isn't great, but that looks pretty nice.

Robert Ruffo New
07-27-2013, 12:34 PM
I don't understand how the histogram and stop lights are not showing any clipping at all!! If thats the case then Dragon is un-real!

I think it is that good. That's what I've heard. If Graemme can nail perfect skin tones out of the box/without fuss (currently, we need to fuss a little in post) then it will kill every other camera out there. I'm glad I didn't recently buy an Alexa.

PC Greene
07-27-2013, 02:20 PM
Apologies if this has been answered already, but if we trade in our Scarlet for Epic and upgrade to Dragon, will our camera have the new fan system, OLPF and any other minor improvements that have come along in the last couple years?

Looking forward...thank you.

PCG

Phil Holland
07-27-2013, 02:41 PM
Apologies if this has been answered already, but if we trade in our Scarlet for Epic and upgrade to Dragon, will our camera have the new fan system, OLPF and any other minor improvements that have come along in the last couple years?


The new DSMC Fan 2.0, both top and bottom, are an optional accessory and not part of the upgrade.

The Dragon upgrade however will be coming with a new IROLPF however.

Michael Patterson
07-27-2013, 02:55 PM
The new DSMC Fan 2.0, both top and bottom, are an optional accessory and not part of the upgrade.

The Dragon upgrade however will be coming with a new IROLPF however.

with the new irolpf, will we not need hot mirror irnds anymore? Will it cause issues if we still use them with dragon?

Phil Holland
07-27-2013, 03:14 PM
with the new irolpf, will we not need hot mirror irnds anymore? Will it cause issues if we still use them with dragon?

Nothing is "truly" known at this point other than previously mentioned much improved IR protection.

It's actually one of those things I'm most excited to test out on Dragon.

Andy Roberts
07-27-2013, 03:38 PM
I got an e-mail from Nar Levoni asking me to upgrade to Dragon. I don't feel comfortable dropping $10K on a product that I haven't even seen yet.

This has been said dozens of times... Red is not collecting money until you actually ship your camera to them which doesn't start until September and if you're not in line yet, it is hard to say how long it will be. You can be sure that you will see a ton of images and footage (maybe even a movie) by the time money is actually transacted. So wait all you want... but the line is only getting longer.

Andrew Huse
07-27-2013, 03:42 PM
This has been said dozens of times... Red is not collecting money until you actually ship your camera to them which doesn't start until September and if you're not in line yet, it is hard to say how long it will be. You can be sure that you will see a ton of images and footage (maybe even a movie) by the time money is actually transacted. So wait all you want... but the line is only get longer.

No worries Andy, the new piano has been cancelled. I'm in the process of getting Dragon now.

Andy Roberts
07-27-2013, 04:03 PM
No worries Andy, the new piano has been cancelled. I'm in the process of getting Dragon now.

If the piano is for your wife or child, I'd do the piano and do Dragon when your business can afford it. But if the business funds are there, I wouldn't let lack of seeing images keep you from getting in line... that's all I was saying. :)

Michael Patterson
07-27-2013, 04:04 PM
Nothing is "truly" known at this point other than previously mentioned much improved IR protection.

It's actually one of those things I'm most excited to test out on Dragon.

I just bought some new tiffen hot mirror irnd (thanks to your recomendation Phil). Do you think this would cause problems, or should it not really matter? I would think it would be ok, but what the hell do I know.

Nick Morrison
07-27-2013, 04:10 PM
I think it is that good. That's what I've heard. If Graemme can nail perfect skin tones out of the box/without fuss (currently, we need to fuss a little in post) then it will kill every other camera out there. I'm glad I didn't recently buy an Alexa.

Music to my ears...

Phil Holland
07-27-2013, 04:12 PM
I just bought some new tiffen hot mirror irnd (thanks to your recomendation Phil). Do you think this would cause problems, or should it not really matter? I would think it would be ok, but what the hell do I know.

Literally don't know anything until all that's tested. I wouldn't freak out or anything though :) Go shoot and proceed as normal for the time being.

Andrew Huse
07-27-2013, 05:11 PM
If the piano is for your wife or child, I'd do the piano and do Dragon when your business can afford it. But if the business funds are there, I wouldn't let lack of seeing images keep you from getting in line... that's all I was saying. :)
I'm actually a professional pianist, and the piano was going to be for me. But I think Dragon is more important. Just wish I can see some samples. Spent an hour on the phone with Steinway trying to explain to them that I was on the fence between the Model B and a sensor upgrade for my camera.

Guy Staley
07-27-2013, 11:05 PM
I'm actually a professional pianist, and the piano was going to be for me. But I think Dragon is more important. Just wish I can see some samples. Spent an hour on the phone with Steinway trying to explain to them that I was on the fence between the Model B and a sensor upgrade for my camera.

How are these two items even remotely related price-wise? "Steinway B"??? These pianos on the used market start at $30K-$40K.

Just sayin...

Dustin Veneman
07-28-2013, 05:35 AM
I got an e-mail from Nar Levoni asking me to upgrade to Dragon. I don't feel comfortable dropping $10K on a product that I haven't even seen yet.

I do

Will Keir
07-28-2013, 09:46 AM
Maybe a Dragon "coming out" party is in need for this milestone... Gotta celebrate the good ones.


Every once in awhile the hard work and endless effort seems to pay off. This is one of those times.

You get to a place that satisfies all your effort. Then it is time to move on to the next milestone.

I'm happy to take a brief moment to celebrate here... the Dragon. It is everything we hoped it would be...

Jim

Will Keir
07-28-2013, 09:50 AM
Where's this low light test? Did you post it Phil?


Phil do you have any .r3d that you would mind sharing from you low light test.

Phil Holland
07-28-2013, 10:00 AM
Where's this low light test? Did you post it Phil?


Very likely the first .R3Ds from Dragon you'll see will come from Red and there will be a "crispy fresh" version of Red Cine-X Pro to accompany it.

I would personally expect to see a .jpg (which we have, but from an early camera and color science) or perhaps a .tif if Jarred is feeling generous :)


This was mostly in reference to shooting into the darkness out in the desert and one other shoot where I played with the ISO a bit.

Elsie N
07-28-2013, 10:04 AM
How are these two items even remotely related price-wise? "Steinway B"??? These pianos on the used market start at $30K-$40K.

Just sayin...

Maybe they (Steinway) have a long-term payment plan? '-)

Andrew Huse
07-28-2013, 10:51 AM
Im getting dragon now. I could either get one or the other. Used Steinway Bs are nice but I want to focus on film making!

Jett He
07-28-2013, 12:36 PM
Ok, I'm ready for some footage now! :D

Alain M
07-28-2013, 12:47 PM
Phil...any chance of seeing some footage to download and test soon?

Bob Gundu
07-28-2013, 12:52 PM
Hi Alain. I may suggest you read a few of the last pages of this thread about the circumstances around this night shoot and how the Dragon files can't work on the current redcine anyhow. In any case, its coming soon.


Phil...any chance of seeing some footage to download and test soon?

Alain M
07-28-2013, 01:10 PM
Thanks Bob...It's just the anxiety makes us all nervious... LOL

Mark L. Pederson
07-28-2013, 01:34 PM
I'm happy to take a brief moment to celebrate here... the Dragon. It is everything we hoped it would be...

Jim

Words can not express how happy I am to hear this. I'm raising a glass to you -

Bertrand LOYER
07-28-2013, 04:12 PM
Hi all,

In order to complete a project for a 1.3636 giant screen and a 4K projector, we are considering shooting with the Dragon; our clients however requires a DCP made of at least 3 different
Epic Dragon shots in r3D. Can anyone PM a server where I can download such r3d files ?

jimhare
07-28-2013, 04:38 PM
Not for a while Bertrand. Need to wait for Dragon and the new RCX to officially enter the wild before footage will be readily available.

Andrew Huse
07-28-2013, 05:13 PM
I think tonight is the night they are going to release something.

Justin O'Neill
07-28-2013, 05:19 PM
I think tonight is the night they are going to release something.

I feel it in the air too, Andrew.

Bob Gundu
07-28-2013, 05:34 PM
I feel it in the air too, Andrew.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHyF39Vs-i4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHyF39Vs-i4

Ryan Sauve
07-28-2013, 06:00 PM
Hahahaha

Kyle Dones
07-28-2013, 08:19 PM
I'm just tired of hearing the RED nay sayers. But I never get tired of embarrassing them when they say something ignorant of RED. I have patience for Dragon footage but it would so much easier to just let the Dragon do the talking in times of these debates.

Sean Cruser
07-29-2013, 03:13 PM
today, on my 26th birthday, i finally preordered a Dragon-M. after shooting a ton of previous work on Epic and Scarlet, i don't know if i can articulate the excitement rushing through my body. thanks so much Jim!

Gabriele Turchi
07-29-2013, 05:22 PM
Give us just a couple more days...

Jim

i guess you guys in California have 1/2 rate time speed ... here in NYC goes faster ...already 4 days has gone by :) :) :)

Kyle Dones
07-29-2013, 06:06 PM
Maybe they're busy with the 645? (Kidding)

Justin O'Neill
07-29-2013, 06:16 PM
Maybe they're busy with the 645? (Kidding)

Don't be kidding! I'm sure they are working on the large format cameras. Hopefully full speed ahead now that the engineers are freed up after finishing Dragon.

Randall Weatherington
07-29-2013, 07:45 PM
Maybe they're busy with the 645? (Kidding)

The 645 is supposed to be the next iteration of the Dragon sensor, and Red is certainly interested in the medium format still photo market. I think it would be safe to say that Red and Imax have also had discussions about that size sensor.
I was watching the Imax "Dream Is Alive" blue ray disc the other day, and the mottling of uneven chemical processing on the negative was very apparent in a couple of scenes. I am so glad we do not have to go swimming in photo chemicals anymore!

chommavong somphane
07-29-2013, 08:49 PM
[QUOTE=Randall Weatherington;1235659]The 645 is supposed to be the next iteration of the Dragon sensor, and Red is certainly interested in the medium format still photo market. I think it would be safe to say that Red and Imax have also had discussions about that size sensor.
I was watching the Imax "Dream Is Alive" blue ray disc the other day, and the mottling of uneven chemical processing on the negative was very apparent in a couple of scenes. I am so glad we do not have to go swimming in photo chemicals anymore!


Oh yes remember the old days.

George A.
07-30-2013, 08:11 AM
The 645 is supposed to be the next iteration of the Dragon sensor, and Red is certainly interested in the medium format still photo market. I think it would be safe to say that Red and Imax have also had discussions about that size sensor.
I was watching the Imax "Dream Is Alive" blue ray disc the other day, and the mottling of uneven chemical processing on the negative was very apparent in a couple of scenes. I am so glad we do not have to go swimming in photo chemicals anymore!

I find it ironic that we are talking about future sensors when Dragon is just about to be released! :-)

In any case - wasn't a full-frame (36mmx24mm) sensor planned as well? Before the 654...

Adrian Lopez
07-30-2013, 06:49 PM
I almost feel a little guilty because I know there are poor people in third world companies (I mean, countries '-) still shooting on DSLRs.

Actually, in Jamaica, we're shooting Epic too! ;) And we'll be upgrading the Rasta Dragon as soon as its available ;)

Joe G.
07-30-2013, 07:24 PM
Never been one to join cults.

"I'm just tired of hearing the RED nay sayers. But I never get tired of embarrassing them when they say something ignorant of RED. I have patience for Dragon footage..."


It's 7:17pm, and "Dragon footage" still doesn't exist.

I guess I'm a Red "nay sayer" as the MX sensor is substandard in my view (Alexa looks better, as does BMC). I thought it nearly ruined Gatsby, and a few others. Skin tones were crap. When they try pushing it around, it shows its limitations, especially when exposed brightly. The higher end doesn't hold up from my theater seat, and since I paid good money to see these things, my opinion is as valid as anyone else's, be they labeled "nay sayer" or whatever.

But if Red can come up with a decent sensor that looks filmic, I have no problem with Red. Apparently I'm not alone, as everyone here is salivating about this upcoming Dragon sensor. Any guess as to why that is? Couldn't have anything whatsoever to do with the current version. It must be something completely different, like an urge to be "cutting edge" or something. Don't compare to current reality. That would go against dogma.

Robert Ruffo New
07-30-2013, 07:34 PM
Never been one to join cults.

"I'm just tired of hearing the RED nay sayers. But I never get tired of embarrassing them when they say something ignorant of RED. I have patience for Dragon footage..."


It's 7:17pm, and "Dragon footage" still doesn't exist.

I guess I'm a Red "nay sayer" as the MX sensor is substandard in my view (Alexa looks better, as does BMC). I thought it nearly ruined Gatsby, and a few others. Skin tones were crap. When they try pushing it around, it shows its limitations, especially when exposed brightly. The higher end doesn't hold up from my theater seat, and since I paid good money to see these things, my opinion is as valid as anyone else's, be they labeled "nay sayer" or whatever.

But if Red can come up with a decent sensor that looks filmic, I have no problem with Red. Apparently I'm not alone, as everyone here is salivating about this upcoming Dragon sensor. Any guess as to why that is? Couldn't have anything whatsoever to do with the current version. It must be something completely different, like an urge to be "cutting edge" or something. Don't compare to current reality. That would go against dogma.

While Alexa can be legitimately preferred over Epic, to say BMC looks better is just to lack a good eye. There are no advantages at all to that camera, and many serious shortcomings.

Edward Johnson
07-30-2013, 07:41 PM
awesome
Only if it looks good... :-)

Jim

Elsie N
07-30-2013, 08:06 PM
Actually, in Jamaica, we're shooting Epic too! ;) And we'll be upgrading the Rasta Dragon as soon as its available ;)
:thumbsup: :cheers2:

Kyle Dones
07-30-2013, 08:21 PM
But if Red can come up with a decent sensor that looks filmic, I have no pro Apparently I'm not alone, as everyone here is salivating about this upcoming Dragon sensor. Any guess as to why that is?.

probably because I'm getting a new sensor for 9500$. I don't care about looking "filmic" and sorry you felt that it ruined Gatsby. Haven't seen it yet but that's because I'm sure there are other reasons that movie was ruined other than the camera.

Joseph Coleman
07-30-2013, 08:38 PM
Gatsby was beautifully graded, In my opinion one of the best looking Red movies I've seen. I have to strongly disagree.

Hank Devos
07-30-2013, 10:04 PM
Never been one to join cults.

"I'm just tired of hearing the RED nay sayers. But I never get tired of embarrassing them when they say something ignorant of RED. I have patience for Dragon footage..."


It's 7:17pm, and "Dragon footage" still doesn't exist.

I guess I'm a Red "nay sayer" as the MX sensor is substandard in my view (Alexa looks better, as does BMC). I thought it nearly ruined Gatsby, and a few others. Skin tones were crap. When they try pushing it around, it shows its limitations, especially when exposed brightly. The higher end doesn't hold up from my theater seat, and since I paid good money to see these things, my opinion is as valid as anyone else's, be they labeled "nay sayer" or whatever.

But if Red can come up with a decent sensor that looks filmic, I have no problem with Red. Apparently I'm not alone, as everyone here is salivating about this upcoming Dragon sensor. Any guess as to why that is? Couldn't have anything whatsoever to do with the current version. It must be something completely different, like an urge to be "cutting edge" or something. Don't compare to current reality. That would go against dogma.

I bet you'd have no idea what camera gatsby was shot on if it wasn't explicitly known beforehand... epic or alexa... also like you'd probably be unable to tell what film stock was used for most of the movies put out in the 90's without explicitly researching it.. unless you're a savant....

Nick Morrison
07-30-2013, 10:08 PM
Never been one to join cults.

"I'm just tired of hearing the RED nay sayers. But I never get tired of embarrassing them when they say something ignorant of RED. I have patience for Dragon footage..."


It's 7:17pm, and "Dragon footage" still doesn't exist.

I guess I'm a Red "nay sayer" as the MX sensor is substandard in my view (Alexa looks better, as does BMC). I thought it nearly ruined Gatsby, and a few others. Skin tones were crap. When they try pushing it around, it shows its limitations, especially when exposed brightly. The higher end doesn't hold up from my theater seat, and since I paid good money to see these things, my opinion is as valid as anyone else's, be they labeled "nay sayer" or whatever.

But if Red can come up with a decent sensor that looks filmic, I have no problem with Red. Apparently I'm not alone, as everyone here is salivating about this upcoming Dragon sensor. Any guess as to why that is? Couldn't have anything whatsoever to do with the current version. It must be something completely different, like an urge to be "cutting edge" or something. Don't compare to current reality. That would go against dogma.

It appears you're looking for problems. We are all "salivating" for Dragon because it's THE NEW CAMERA we've been waiting over a year for. As many Redusers are OWNER-OPERATORS, this next phase in RED's tech has become...understandably...quite personal. For many, buying a RED has been a defining and significant purchase (like buying a car, or a house), and the future of this investment is extremely important (and anxiety provoking).

You're entitled to your opinions about skintones, but I personally disagree. At Astronaut, we grade all our footage after we shoot it, and it's always looked fantastic and clients love it (and are happy to pay for it). Having COMPRESSED 4K raw files has personally changed our business in ways I never expected and I'm eternally appreciative of. We could never afford an Alexa, but we could afford a Scarlet, and that helped launch our business (fyi the RAW file sizes are way too large on a BMCC to make that system manageable for us).

Anyway. We're focused on the past (not sure why). I'm much more interested in the future...in DRAGON. Toia will be releasing some footage soon. I'm looking forward to that, not to these slightly draining (and familiar) complaints...that I honestly never understand. We're shooting RAW. You can make skintones look however YOU WANT. Why critics never understand that baffles me. At Astronaut, we do one-lights on all our footage, and its AMAZING the latitude we have in RCX or Davinci with Skintones. We literally got to decide last month how much "color" to add to Alyssa Milano's face. We could make her look HOWEVER WE WANTED, and it was exhilarating.

Rick Darge
07-31-2013, 12:12 AM
Red is Raw, sure. But that doesn't mean you don't have a baked in look because its RAW. I can spot Red footage a mile away. Same with Alexa I can tell right away. Skin on Red has a very specific look that you can't avoid. That's what industry peeps talk about when they complain about skin.

Eryc Tramonn
07-31-2013, 12:19 AM
This is what my model looks like in person. There was no correction added to this frame, hence the low contrast. And this was literally plucked from a timeline because I'm not sure why there are so many gripes surrounding skin.

I was simply playing around with an MX to yield this, so I can only image where DRAGON will take us.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99601873@N05/9404813545/

Not everyone will like everything, I suppose. However, what purpose does it serve to be rude in the process of lodging distaste?



BTW, that is the very first time I am actually posting a frame within the forum. Hope you guys like it, and that it does the MX justice. I promise I will do my best to keep them coming in the years ahead. Thank you Jim, Jarred, Brent, et al...for everything. You have already created a masterpiece.



EDIT: Holy crap...I just remembered....this was actually shot on a pre-MX RED One. You have got to be kidding me. It's been so long, I had completely forgotten.

James Sielaff
07-31-2013, 12:56 AM
This is what my model looks like in person. There was no correction added to this frame, hence the low contrast. And this was literally plucked from a timeline because I'm not sure why there are so many gripes surrounding skin.

I was simply playing around with an MX to yield this, so I can only image where DRAGON will take us.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99601873@N05/9404813545/

Not everyone will like everything, I suppose. However, what purpose does it serve to be rude in the process of lodging distaste?



BTW, that is the very first time I am actually posting a frame within the forum. Hope you guys like it, and that it does the MX justice. I promise I will do my best to keep them coming in the years ahead. Thank you Jim, Jarred, Brent, et al...for everything. You have already created a masterpiece.



EDIT: Holy crap...I just remembered....this was actually shot on a pre-MX RED One. You have got to be kidding me. It's been so long, I had completely forgotten.
Colorific lens flare... looks crossed processed. no measure of good skin tone from a camera. Too stylized. Explains a lot from your comments. A better example might be Social Network, for a starting point, or that video of Kate Beckinsale on vimeo. And even better any of the many raw frames posted on this forum. Nice pic though.

Erich Ocean
07-31-2013, 01:45 AM
We're shooting RAW. You can make skintones look however YOU WANT.

Although it's true that Red cameras shoot RAW, they're encrypted RAW files that can only be processed by proprietary RED software.

We're all the mercy of Graham for the debayering.

Also, all RAW is not created equal—the color filter array placed over the sensor matters a lot, and that affects the actual image recorded on the Bayer sensor itself.

It's easy to see this in the ACES workflow, where RED's CFA produces bad results (according to Jim Jannard—and everyone else) with the default Reference Rendering Transform. That's because "red", "green", and "blue" vary from camera to camera, and thus RAW file to RAW file. (Note: this does not mean RED has a bad CFA; it just means that the RRT in ACES isn't optimized for what RED is recording...).

In principle, the input transform is supposed to neutralize things, but that's not the way it happens. This, too, is easy to test: set up a color chart with an F65 and output to ACES; set up the same color chart and lens with the Epic MX; compare results. Hint: they're not the same, despite supposedly being transformed into the same 'neutral' color space.

I strongly suspect, given how hard Sony is pushing the ACES workflow, that the RRT was developed from their own footage, and that's why RED footage fares poorly.

I personally wish RED would just give us the RAW data, as a CinemaDNG; I see no reason for it to be encrypted and inaccessible. It's our footage. In the meantime, I'm doing the ACES linear output and then re-bayering it so that I can run my own de-bayer code. It's a hack, but a workable one (I only have to bake in the color balance and ISO when I do this).

Eric Z
07-31-2013, 01:52 AM
Erich,

Could you describe the process of doing ACES linear output -> re-bayering -> select de-bayering algorithm?
What software and options do you use to do that?

Since the RAW material is compressed (minimum 3:1), how do you get around that? Can you un-compress it?

Erich Ocean
07-31-2013, 02:03 AM
Eric,

I'm currently doing all my experiments with Matlab. I use http://www.mit.edu/~kimo/software/matlabexr/ to read in the OpenEXR file.

The workflow goes like this:

1. Export ACES from RedCine X at the same resolution as capture.
2. Open image in Matlab using matlabexr.
3. For each pixel in the image, copy either the red, green, or blue channel to a new, single channel image. This becomes the "re-bayered" image.
4. Run my Matlab de-bayering code on the re-bayered image to produce the final output image.

I do this for only single frames right now, or sometimes very short sequences (e.g. 3 seconds). Matlab isn't that fast, but it's a great playground to mess around with complex image operations.

My main goal is to get out-of-the-box results that match what the eye sees, not what the camera sees. The eye does a ton of processing on the "image" before it hits your mind, and I'm trying to replicate some of that. It works best with HDR images, so I'm super excited about the 16+ stops on the Dragon sensor...

Eric Z
07-31-2013, 02:06 AM
Thanks, Erich.

Do you see a tangible difference between your de-bayering and RED's de-bayering output?

Erich Ocean
07-31-2013, 03:02 AM
Do you see a tangible difference between your de-bayering and RED's de-bayering output?

Yeah, it's huge, but that's because I'm treating the footage as HDR footage and doing tone mapping, so that's a very different process to what RED's debayering does. They're not really comparable, and you wouldn't want RedCine X to be doing what I'm doing.

The footage I'm testing with isn't lit for 'film'; it's lit based on what looks correct to the people standing there on set, looking at it with their own eyes. Without the tone mapping I'm doing, the footage just looks bad, period, and if you applied my debayering code to something that was lit for film, it also produces very unnatural footage.

What I'm trying to do is get to What You See Is What You Get exposure, where you're looking at the set with your eyes and judging that, not looking at the LCD and trying to monkey with the lighting until the camera "sees" what you want it to see. It's just a different way of working.

What's nice with my approach is the only lighting you need to do falls under the category of 'production design': you add lights/flags/gels to make the set and people look cool, not to balance things out for the camera so you can get the exposure right. That's really only possible with HDR imaging, and the MX actually doesn't really have enough range, but the Dragon will if it really is 16+ stops, especially with the extra stop(s) in the blacks.

I suspect your real question was: can you get better/different de-bayering with other software, and the answer is "yes", but I doubt it'd be all that useful to most people. It's mainly just "different", and RedCine X has enough knobs to do virtually anything you'd want to do inside it anyway, as far as traditional de-bayering goes.

Elsie N
07-31-2013, 05:36 AM
Colorific lens flare... looks crossed processed. no measure of good skin tone from a camera. Too stylized. Explains a lot from your comments. A better example might be Social Network, for a starting point, or that video of Kate Beckinsale on vimeo. And even better any of the many raw frames posted on this forum. Nice pic though.

So, Social Network and all the other movies that a few people think do not look great had industry professionals doing the finish. If it is true that these highly trained professionals cannot get a look out of RAW footage from a camera that the producers and directors of these movies concluded were acceptable, then what does that say about those great post people?

I've known people in the past who continually found fault with any and everything in order to appear to have powers that the rest of us do not possess. That would leave us scratching our heads trying to find that discrepancy so we too could be in the same class as the fault finder. Not saying there may not actually be faults sometimes, but many times the fault exists only in the eyes of the beholder... plus anyone they can convince to "see" what they see.

Not saying this applies to you James... just using your post to make a point.

PatC
07-31-2013, 06:26 AM
How has the epic been out for so long and people are still arguing about this! It looks amazing- go shoot something!

Jay A. Kelley
07-31-2013, 07:25 AM
I find this argument about skin tones to be academic. Most of the time people have no idea what they are looking at unless they were present on set when it was shot. There have been many times where RED was inter-cut with 35mm film and it was not mentioned.

Seems to be for every "industry professional" that has a problem with RED, there are other "industry professionals" who seem to love it.

To each his own.

Jay

Jason Diamond
07-31-2013, 07:26 AM
How has the epic been out for so long and people are still arguing about this! It looks amazing- go shoot something!
Agreed 1000000000000000000000000000000%

Christian Jadot
07-31-2013, 07:54 AM
Can we change the subject of skin tones please. I enjoy hearing about the Dragon, and I don't want this thread to be locked.

Meryem Ersoz
07-31-2013, 08:06 AM
There are 2013 reels from RED and from Alexa which you can access online - I believe both are on Vimeo. Watch them side by side and see for yourself how negligible the differences are at 1080p - at 1080, this conversation is over. (At 4K, it's a different story entirely...)

RED skintones have a slightly earthier, organic feel to them. Alexa has a bit more of a fairy dust feel, a bit more "aliveness" to their skintones. That's about as far as I've been able to perceive any difference at all. It's purely a matter of taste. Personally, I like that earthier RED feel. I think it is more accurately human - more representational, less artificial. I think the Alexa was the perfect choice for a film like "Life of Pi" for capturing that sense of non-representational, magical realism. I think RED skintones can be matched to Alexa quite easily (happens all the time) but I think it doesn't go the other way, quite as easily. That earthy, organic feel which is natural to RED straight out of the camera is something I prefer, for telling more deeply realistic, down and dirty, humanistic tales.

(Which is kind of ironic, since all that resolution makes RED the go-to for SFX shooting).

But it's really a matter of taste. Apples and oranges. The rest is just a relentlessly dull story, told by people with an axe to grind.

Harcharan Singh
07-31-2013, 08:12 AM
Hi guys,

LET GET UNDER THE 'SKIN" of the DRAGON...............

Harcharan

Timothy Eaton
07-31-2013, 08:40 AM
So, Social Network and all the other movies that a few people think do not look great had industry professionals doing the finish. If it is true that these highly trained professionals cannot get a look out of RAW footage from a camera that the producers and directors of these movies concluded were acceptable, then what does that say about those great post people?

I've known people in the past who continually found fault with any and everything in order to appear to have powers that the rest of us do not possess. That would leave us scratching our heads trying to find that discrepancy so we too could be in the same class as the fault finder. Not saying there may not actually be faults sometimes, but many times the fault exists only in the eyes of the beholder... plus anyone they can convince to "see" what they see.

Not saying this applies to you James... just using your post to make a point.

Great post Elsie. Some of this skin tone conversation has the same feel as wine snobbery, the idea that oenophiles are possessed of a higher sensibility that the rest of us simply don't have access to, especially as it pertains to the cost of the wine. Blind taste testing, however, has put to rest most of the wine nonsense, "experts" having been fooled in test after test after test. This is not to say that enjoying a nice glass of wine is not a fine experience with a complex array of sensations, only to note that those who claim to be experts are often greatly influenced by what they already know about a given wine.

I am fully prepared to listen to the Red skin tone naysayers if they can demonstrate their "expertise" in a blind test. So far, in the very limited experiments here on Reduser, the detractors have been a colossal failure. Even if, however, those detractors were able to distinguish Red originated material every time, I would still argue that we are well into the realm of taste and that accuracy and fidelity to the original subject is a much, much trickier zone.

Here's a link to a stills page on my website. I love my Epic for its ability to produce what I believe are lovely images, and render faces in a way that is pleasing... at least to me. http://www.veritestudios.com/stills.html

Nick Morrison
07-31-2013, 08:49 AM
I find this argument about skin tones to be academic. Most of the time people have no idea what they are looking at unless they were present on set when it was shot. There have been many times where RED was inter-cut with 35mm film and it was not mentioned.

Seems to be for every "industry professional" that has a problem with RED, there are other "industry professionals" who seem to love it.

To each his own.

Jay

Exactly. Epic was intercut with 65mm in Star Trek Into Darkness, and you can't even tell.

Eryc Tramonn
07-31-2013, 11:40 AM
Colorific lens flare... looks crossed processed. no measure of good skin tone from a camera. Too stylized. Explains a lot from your comments.

Yikes. Haha. I knew that was coming. Sorry, I did not have a frame with a gray card or chip handy. However, without knowledge or explanation of the lighting scheme, wouldn't it be a tad difficult to judge any image empirically? In the least, the lighting would need to be flat, probably daylight balanced for the CMOS, supply a range of notated values, and showcase items with known hue -- in the very least. It should be obvious that wasn't the point of my post.

As I mentioned, I just happened to see this exported frame on my desktop, and decided to share it (against my better judgment - haha). And again, this is a frame from the ORIGINAL RED One sensor from many years ago. At the time, I merely wanted to see a few TIFF exports rendered from REDcine-X. Cine glass was definitely used, and I believe it was a set of Super Speeds.



A better example might be Social Network, for a starting point, or that video of Kate Beckinsale on vimeo. And even better any of the many raw frames posted on this forum. Nice pic though.

While I realize the frame I posted does not stand as an objective record, I was not submitting it as such. This was the RESULT of little production effort from a first-gen camera, at least 4 years ago. Yet people are STILL fomenting the "skin tone" debate. The science of filmmaking is inherently at the service of producing an aesthetic. And aesthetics are subjective. To prove that point, I was willing to put my neck on the REDuser chopping block. :) There are as many workflows as there are people, and that seems to lead some to think their process has some inherent value over another. For example, I have used flat DPX sequences to awesome outcome on indie work, rather than using the RAW for the additional metadata latitude. Both tacts have produced great results -- to my eye -- granted, I don't have cone photoreceptors in my retinas. Kidding. It really just depends on the project and the pipeline, and every project seems to require its own unique approach. It seems the most important fact remains that we have that capability in the first place. As people have shown on other threads here, a single CC'd r3d will yield 5000 interpretations. Is any one of those more "correct" than any other?

The RED system is malleable enough to allow a creative individual to approach their art from a variety of angles. And in my apparently tremendously naive estimation, the system seems to grant a pliability that matches traditional, film-based workflow. And it accomplishes this at an unparalleled price point. It almost seems some people are shunning the flexibility the system supplies, and would rather a baked-in colorspace. Yet, when color correcting from a log gamma, an artist can emulate any process, skin tone or whatever they desire. It seems the real difference comes in thought: Are we debating the technical, video engineering side of the image, or the creative end result?

RED has delivered tremendous versatility in a mobile telecine roughly the size of my palm. In any case, I think that unnerves some because it becomes difficult to hide behind a vectorscope, and removes some of the mysticism surrounding the process. While others simply do not get it. But maybe I am missing something. Good thing I have been able to fool a few clients along the way.

Anyway, many of us will have shot five features, and there will still be individuals quibbling over the fidelity of skin tones while their unicorn-based sensor/film/whatever never meets their expectation. It was the same in school: there were always a handful of students so exceedingly concerned with technical aspects, or "limitations," that they routinely failed to witness the possibilities. They spent more time vacillating over an idiosyncrasy or engineering nuance than actually filming anything. Of course, there is an art to engineering and without that approach, we don't have the tool. So I am not discounting the importance of technical specification, and standards. However, there comes a time where all the data must be internalized and simply used to deliver a pleasing image. Pleasing to whom? Whomever is paying for the image, I guess. Haha.

At a certain point, all the engineering and attempts at quantitative analysis should put filmmakers in a place where they are able to arrive at "nice pics," while examining character through the function of story. IMHO, RED has achieved that and more. So, in a way, you validated my post after all.

Glad you like the frame okay. :)

Eryc Tramonn
07-31-2013, 12:15 PM
How has the epic been out for so long and people are still arguing about this! It looks amazing- go shoot something!

Exactly the reason I finally posted an image. It is positively ludicrous. I'm with you 100%.

Eryc Tramonn
07-31-2013, 12:16 PM
I find this argument about skin tones to be academic. Most of the time people have no idea what they are looking at unless they were present on set when it was shot. There have been many times where RED was inter-cut with 35mm film and it was not mentioned.

Seems to be for every "industry professional" that has a problem with RED, there are other "industry professionals" who seem to love it.

To each his own.

Jay

Precisely. Could not have said it better.

Eryc Tramonn
07-31-2013, 12:35 PM
So, Social Network and all the other movies that a few people think do not look great had industry professionals doing the finish. If it is true that these highly trained professionals cannot get a look out of RAW footage from a camera that the producers and directors of these movies concluded were acceptable, then what does that say about those great post people?

I've known people in the past who continually found fault with any and everything in order to appear to have powers that the rest of us do not possess. That would leave us scratching our heads trying to find that discrepancy so we too could be in the same class as the fault finder. Not saying there may not actually be faults sometimes, but many times the fault exists only in the eyes of the beholder... plus anyone they can convince to "see" what they see.

Not saying this applies to you James... just using your post to make a point.

In a nutshell. Awesome post, Elsie.

Most of us here do not ignore shortcomings, or blindly act as evangelists for the RED water.

Nothing is perfect, but in my real-world production experience, this is an issue that has been BLOWN COMPLETELY OUT OF PROPORTION. Literally beaten to death. :beatdeadhorse5: It makes me wonder what people are seeing. Whatever though.

Color and light are definitely subjective, and as with any system of measure, the measurement utility seems to break down under intense scrutiny. We think about anything too minutely and we cross into philosophy, and then paralysis via analysis. I'll see you in the field, or not...that's kind of where we have to leave it. :)

Eryc Tramonn
07-31-2013, 12:49 PM
Great post Elsie. Some of this skin tone conversation has the same feel as wine snobbery, the idea that oenophiles are possessed of a higher sensibility that the rest of us simply don't have access to, especially as it pertains to the cost of the wine. Blind taste testing, however, has put to rest most of the wine nonsense, "experts" having been fooled in test after test after test. This is not to say that enjoying a nice glass of wine is not a fine experience with a complex array of sensations, only to note that those who claim to be experts are often greatly influenced by what they already know about a given wine.

I am fully prepared to listen to the Red skin tone naysayers if they can demonstrate their "expertise" in a blind test. So far, in the very limited experiments here on Reduser, the detractors have been a colossal failure. Even if, however, those detractors were able to distinguish Red originated material every time, I would still argue that we are well into the realm of taste and that accuracy and fidelity to the original subject is a much, much trickier zone.

Exactly. It is very encouraging to witness other shooters in such a similar head space.



Here's a link to a stills page on my website. I love my Epic for its ability to produce what I believe are lovely images, and render faces in a way that is pleasing... at least to me. http://www.veritestudios.com/stills.html

Yep.

Really beautiful work.

Elsie N
07-31-2013, 12:51 PM
Exactly. It is very encouraging to witness other shooters in such a similar head space.




Yep.

Really beautiful work.

+1.

Andy Roberts
07-31-2013, 01:12 PM
Here's a link to a stills page on my website. I love my Epic for its ability to produce what I believe are lovely images, and render faces in a way that is pleasing... at least to me. http://www.veritestudios.com/stills.html

Absolutely stunning stills Timothy.

Timothy Eaton
07-31-2013, 01:42 PM
Absolutely stunning stills Timothy.

Thanks for the kind words Andy and others. The digital imaging universe has opened up, due in large part to Jim and the guys at Red. I can pick up a Hasselblad-sized camera and shoot theatrical quality footage at 60 or 90 or 100 frames a second. Half the time, I work by myself, which has dramatically changed my business. I can edit and grade on my desktop with a degree of accuracy and fidelity that would have required a million dollar room ten or twelve years ago. Granted, the original Redcolor was a work in progress, but the new color science is beautiful, and faces are rendered as I see them and light them on the day.

No piece of equipment is perfect, but Epic is the single best piece of cinematographic gear I have ever owned. My old Arri 16SR was a distant second. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but some guys have made a pastime out of knocking Red. I'm with PatC - just go out and shoot.

Tim Eaton

Thor Melsted
07-31-2013, 03:32 PM
It's easy to see this in the ACES workflow, where RED's CFA produces bad results (according to Jim Jannard—and everyone else) with the default Reference Rendering Transform. That's because "red", "green", and "blue" vary from camera to camera, and thus RAW file to RAW file. (Note: this does not mean RED has a bad CFA; it just means that the RRT in ACES isn't optimized for what RED is recording...).

Has that changed?
I just read that the DI for Elysium used ACES. (http://www.studiodaily.com/2013/07/how-elysiums-4k-di-integrated-editorial-and-vfx/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=how-elysiums-4k-di-integrated-editorial-and-vfx)

Gavin Greenwalt
07-31-2013, 07:00 PM
I bet you'd have no idea what camera gatsby was shot on if it wasn't explicitly known beforehand... epic or alexa... also like you'd probably be unable to tell what film stock was used for most of the movies put out in the 90's without explicitly researching it.. unless you're a savant....

I am the first to argue for the merits of digital. Especially in that digital could be made to look exactly like film with the proper LUT. But that's not to say that there isn't a big difference in the look between film and digital.

Compare gatsby to something like Romeo and Juliet:
http://imgs.littlewhitelies.co.uk/uploads/2013/02/Romeo-and-Juliet.jpg

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2013-05-11-GatsbyWarners.jpg

There is a huge difference in subliminal 'feel' between the two. I don't see why people are so vehemently opposed to striving to offer a more filmic LUT option.

Another two good examples that are more apples to apples:
http://clorstudios.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/storm-copy.jpg
http://www.filmconvert.com/examples/

I wouldn't say that takes a wine snob to tell the difference.

Phil Holland
07-31-2013, 07:12 PM
There is a huge difference in subliminal 'feel' between the two. I don't see why people are so vehemently opposed to striving to offer a more filmic LUT option.

You can, it's just really up to you in post. A good colorist will give you any look you want. Film-like, digital crispy lettuce, and everything in between.

Andy Roberts
07-31-2013, 07:13 PM
Seems like it is mostly a grading choice...

Eryc Tramonn
07-31-2013, 07:15 PM
You can, it's just really up to you in post. A good colorist will give you any look you want. Film-like, digital crispy lettuce, and everything in between.

That's the entire point. Some people seem to "get it." Others -- not so much.

Matt Ryan
07-31-2013, 07:21 PM
That's the entire point. Some people seem to "get it." Others -- not so much.

So Academy Award winning DP's don't "get it?" You guys need to stop circle jerking each other. There are plenty of "looks" you can't achieve on Epic that you can on Alexa and vice versa. Same for film. Is the Epic great, yes! Does it have room to improve? ALWAYS..... Captured color could be improved, DR could be improved, apparent sharpness could be improved, compression could be improved, etc... In comes the Dragon (may improve all of those things)... To say any camera is perfect as is is well, short sighted. We wan't to keep pushing the limits and always improve. Guess what? Dragon will be outdone in 2 years and we will be on to another sensor. Maybe you guys are just lost, but continually pushing to improve things is good, not bad. We just wan't RED to succeed so were willing to call out what could be improved. Don't be shortsighted and put those people down. They're the reason the RED exists, it's about pushing boundaries and improving. Keep that in mind.

I'm as big a fan boy as any, but things are getting more and more ridiculous around here.

Nick Morrison
07-31-2013, 07:28 PM
I basically agree with you Gavin, but in comparing these two movies it makes me think not only of the evolution of acquisition (ie...from film to digital), but to the evolution of production as well. Romeo and Juliet, from what I remember, appears to be shot mostly on location, or on set. Whereas Gatsby seems to have relied heavily on Greenscreen, compositing, and VFX.

The difference in your two frames seems to be heavily influenced by BOTH these factors. Yes, the digital image is cleaner, and with much less grain. But the lighting, and the way the background forms around Dicaprio in the Gatsby frame, has a contemporary VFX look that contrasts markedly with the in-camera simpleness of Romeo & Juliet.

For example, movies shot on RED with little to no VFX look much more classic to me. Take Beginners for example:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXUFUp6vsxg

Or Blue Valetine:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K50uMAknLJ8

Or even Dragon Tatoo for that matter (I don't remember it being very VFX heavy):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVLvMg62RPA


I am the first to argue for the merits of digital. Especially in that digital could be made to look exactly like film with the proper LUT. But that's not to say that there isn't a big difference in the look between film and digital.

Compare gatsby to something like Romeo and Juliet:
http://imgs.littlewhitelies.co.uk/uploads/2013/02/Romeo-and-Juliet.jpg

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2013-05-11-GatsbyWarners.jpg

There is a huge difference in subliminal 'feel' between the two. I don't see why people are so vehemently opposed to striving to offer a more filmic LUT option.

Andy Roberts
07-31-2013, 07:29 PM
Matt, the posts started in response to this
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103365-Dragon-uncaged&p=1236087&viewfull=1#post1236087
I don't think anything could be more ridiculous than that post.
Yes everyone wants improvement, but some just want to bash Red... so like any long standing feud, the strong reactions will continue. But for this thread, that post was the incendiary spark.

Karim D. Ghantous
07-31-2013, 07:37 PM
The reason why people don't like the skin tones from the MX is because the output is much sharper and cleaner than other cameras. I suggest using old lenses. That might fix the problem.



Compare gatsby to something like Romeo and Juliet:
You've provided two images with different colour temperatures. The second one is soft. I found Gatsby had great skin tones. The problem with that film was not the camera!


So Academy Award winning DP's don't "get it?"
You are not suggesting that professionals don't have flaws in their thinking? I wish Spielberg would tone down the fucking music in his films. And Lucas made a mistake in adopting digital too early - he took a step backwards, IMO. I have no respect for the notion that a DSLR can be used to shoot medium or high budget movies, despite what some professionals think is hip. Does Michael Bay think that Linkin Cry Baby Park is going to help sell more movie tickets? What if Wally Pfister is wrong about digital vs film projection (maybe, maybe not)? I wish that Lynch had not shot Inland Empire with a video camera. And Kubrick should have made more movies, damn him!


apparent sharpness could be improved
It's way sharp. Probably too sharp! Things are not ridiculous here. Except maybe when people ask the same question twenty times without reading the thread first.

Eryc Tramonn
07-31-2013, 07:41 PM
So Academy Award winning DP's don't "get it?" You guys need to stop circle jerking each other. There are plenty of "looks" you can't achieve on Epic that you can on Alexa and vice versa. Same for film. Is the Epic great, yes! Does it have room to improve? ALWAYS..... Captured color could be improved, DR could be improved, apparent sharpness could be improved, compression could be improved, etc... In comes the Dragon (may improve all of those things)... To say any camera is perfect as is is well, short sighted. We wan't to keep pushing the limits and always improve. Guess what? Dragon will be outdone in 2 years and we will be on to another sensor. Maybe you guys are just lost, but continually pushing to improve things is good, not bad. We just wan't RED to succeed so were willing to call out what could be improved. Don't be shortsighted and put those people down. They're the reason the RED exists, it's about pushing boundaries and improving. Keep that in mind.

I'm as big a fan boy as any, but things are getting more and more ridiculous around here.

Umm, I kinda think we're all sayin' the same thing. I'm not saying the camera is perfect by any stretch of the imagination. If you doubt that, go back and read some of my prior posts -- even in this thread. Do I think it is good? Resounding affirmative. Does that mean the Alexa, isn't? I have NEVER once said that.

I am saying some of the debate surrounding certain "issues" is silly...yes, I am.

As Phil points out, maybe his voice holds more water than mine, the image is malleable in the hands of talented colorists. And here it comes.......what is a "'Talented' colorist, and why do you need one to arrive at a decent image." Oh goodness.

Not implying you would ask that question, Matt, or do not know, sir. I'm just saying I can hear someone, somewhere, thinking that.

Eryc Tramonn
07-31-2013, 07:48 PM
It's way sharp. Probably too sharp! Things are not ridiculous here. Except maybe when people ask the same question twenty times without reading the thread first.

Haha, this is a perennial issue. No worries though. Most forum members are gracious enough to simply answer as though they are hearing the question for the first time.

Much love everybody. Get along. Be happy. We have new tools heading our way.

Erich Ocean
07-31-2013, 07:56 PM
Has that changed?
I just read that the DI for Elysium used ACES. (http://www.studiodaily.com/2013/07/how-elysiums-4k-di-integrated-editorial-and-vfx/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=how-elysiums-4k-di-integrated-editorial-and-vfx)

Well, the RRT is constantly being tweaked, so it might be better now for RED-originated material.

Although...you can actually just use you own RRT (that's what I do), in which case, the ACES pipeline would work for any footage (in principle).

ACES is actually just a standardization of what many people already do, which is why I think it'll be adopted widely in the future.

Mark L. Pederson
07-31-2013, 07:56 PM
For example, movies shot on RED with little to no VFX look much more classic to me. Take Beginners for example:

Comparing the aesthetic of a movie is like comparing the aesthetic and look of of paintings in a museum. Most people in the art world don't look at a painting and start criticizing what paint brush the artist used. But movies ... WOW ... everyone is an expert.

In a creative, supervised color correction - a director and a sometimes a cinematographer makes choices in the final color correct. Prior to OFFHOLLYWOOD selling our post production operations to Light Iron - we color graded and delivered dozens and dozens of features shot on RED including the Academy Award winning Beginners used as an example in this thread. I have been a part of the production and post production process of dozens of films shot on the same sensor that look ENTIRELY different.

Which ones look "better" .... well ... that's totally subjective. The reality is - they each look the way the director, or cinematographer ... and even sometimes the producer wanted them to look. Whoever is directing the colorist in a DI on a film shot on RAW R3D's has a lot of room to swing - and the swings they choose may or may not be what you think is best. Guess what ... it's not your movie. Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion. It's just as valid as mine. And just as valid as the director of a given film. Guess who has the power to make the choice?

You can debate and compare what movie you think "looks better" all day long if you want. What is a little more relevant to this forum would be to appreciate how DIFFERENT all the movies shot on RED actually look. There's a CRAZY range.

My 2 cents.

Nick Morrison
07-31-2013, 08:04 PM
You can debate and compare what movie you think "looks better" all day long if you want. What is a little more relevant to this forum would be to appreciate how DIFFERENT all the movies shot on RED actually look. There's a CRAZY range.

My 2 cents.

Favorite quote of the day. Thanks for chiming in Mark. Appreciate it.

Phil Holland
07-31-2013, 08:10 PM
Just remember that often there's a lot that goes into choosing a camera system for production. Some clear, some rather invisible. Unless you're there and see that side of things you wouldn't even know.

That said, for the most part, the camera system is a choice. From top to bottom you have to choose. Even still, on large budget productions it's pretty typical to use multiple camera systems for their strengths.

The desire to improve should burn bright. There's always a need to strive to do better, innovate, and create. That's what the motion picture industry is built on. Red's been rather industry leading on that front and that's why I own there cameras. I'm attracted to bleeding edge technology like a moth to light and I've got the burn marks to show for it.

On the format, file, color, crazy talk. Look guys. Professionally I've had to make all of these cameras match at one point or another and end up on screen. Some are rather easy to "push around" to get there. Some are damn near impossible. Heck nobody can detect my plates shot on the HVX200 and 5D Mark II footage from back in the day from film stock we shot on. And both of those cameras are FAR from a desirable motion picture image making tool in my book. In one particular film you'd be hard pressed to figure out what was OG Red One versus the film. That's because of the work done to the material after the fact as well. A properly sampled grain pattern, detail adjusted to match the scan, matched color, tonality, etc....

Mysterium-X and REDCODE are good things. Flexible things. Actually, crazy flexible things. Dragon's coming in with a fresh hot breath of new tech that's going to empower us more so than ever. And honestly from what I've seen first hand it's already breezing past my expectations from a year ago. That's exciting stuff for me.

Room to improve? Sure. However, just look at some of the gorgeous imagery it's created. The proof is there just what you can do with it.

Keep in mind on the Red side there are people who eat, breath, and (don't) sleep these cameras and future imaging technology. They also have a very demanding clientele that they actually communicate with and listen to. This helps them push further and harder.

Nobody else is doing this really.

Mark my words. Dragon is a legitimate game changer and history maker. If this doesn't get a Technical Academy Award at some point I'd be rather shocked.

Nick Morrison
07-31-2013, 08:15 PM
Just remember that often there's a lot that goes into choosing a camera system for production. Some clear, some rather invisible. Unless you're there and see that side of things you wouldn't even know.

That said, for the most part, the camera system is a choice. From top to bottom you have to choose. Even still, on large budget productions it's pretty typical to use multiple camera systems for their strengths.

The desire to improve should burn bright. There's always a need to strive to do better, innovate, and create. That's what the motion picture industry is built on. Red's been rather industry leading on that front and that's why I own there cameras. I'm attracted to bleeding edge technology like a moth to light and I've got the burn marks to show for it.

On the format, file, color, crazy talk. Look guys. Professionally I've had to make all of these cameras match at one point or another and end up on screen. Some are rather easy to "push around" to get there. Some are damn near impossible. Heck nobody can detect my plates shot on the HVX200 and 5D Mark II footage from back in the day from film stock we shot on. And both of those cameras are FAR from a desirable motion picture image making tool in my book. In one particular film you'd be hard pressed to figure out what was OG Red One versus the film. That's because of the work done to the material after the fact as well. A properly sampled grain pattern, detail adjusted to match the scan, matched color, tonality, etc....

Mysterium-X and REDCODE are good things. Flexible things. Actually, crazy flexible things. Dragon's coming in with a fresh hot breath of new tech that's going to empower us more so than ever. And honestly from what I've seen first hand it's already breezing past my expectations from a year ago. That's exciting stuff for me.

Room to improve? Sure. However, just look at some of the gorgeous imagery it's created. The proof is there just what you can do with it.

Keep in mind on the Red side there are people who eat, breath, and (don't) sleep these cameras and future imaging technology. They also have a very demanding clientele that they actually communicate with and listen to. This helps them push further and harder.

Nobody else is doing this really.

Mark my words. Dragon is a legitimate game changer and history maker. If this doesn't get a Technical Academy Award at some point I'd be rather shocked.

Phil I hope you get an Emmy one day for your writing style. Love it. You break things down SO WELL.

Eryc Tramonn
07-31-2013, 08:25 PM
Comparing the aesthetic of a movie is like comparing the aesthetic and look of of paintings in a museum. Most people in the art world don't look at a painting and start criticizing what paint brush the artist used. But movies ... WOW ... everyone has an opinion.

In a creative, supervised color correction - a director and a sometimes a cinematographer makes choices in the final color correct. Prior to OFFHOLLYWOOD selling our post production operations to Light Iron - we color graded and delivered dozens and dozens of features shot on RED including the Academy Award winning Beginners used as an example in this thread. I have been a part of production and post production process of dozens of films shot on the same sensor that look ENTIRELY different.

Which ones look "better" .... well ... that's totally subjective. The reality is - they each look the way the director, or cinematographer ... and even sometimes the producer wanted them to look. Whoever is directing the colorist in a DI on a film shot on RAW R3D's has a lot of room to swing - and the swings they choose may or may not be what you think is best. Guess what ... it's not your movie. Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion. It's just as valid as mine. And just as valid as the director of a given film. Guess who has the power to make the choice?

You can debate and compare what movie you think "looks better" all day long if you want. What is a little more relevant to this forum would be to appreciate how DIFFERENT all the movies shot on RED actually look. There's a CRAZY range.

My 2 cents.

This has been my experience, as well.

It all dissolves to creative flexibility, and the choices made in DI when speaking about the exhibited image. I have been extremely fortunate to have sat in countless DI sessions, and even direct some, for fairly large budget commercial gigs. I have seen an amazing level of detail extracted, and manipulated at Hollywood color facilities, under the hand of industry recognized and sought-after colorists.

Yet a similar level of control is also available in my bedroom now -- though it seems some people would try to have you believe otherwise. Maybe we're not going to be rendering frames as fast as a Clipster, but we're able to manage a very similar workflow without the dedicated hardware. And RED definitely had a HUGE hand in pushing that capability into existence.

The EPIC essentially allows a creative the ability to start with a "clean" record of a scene (even cleaner with Dragon, apparently), and then grants the ability to fine-tune color, and apply any grain emulation they choose (should they choose), thereafter.

Eryc Tramonn
07-31-2013, 08:35 PM
Dragon is a legitimate game changer and history maker. If this doesn't get a Technical Academy Award at some point I'd be rather shocked.

You just kicked the Venice Beach hacky sack back at me? Haha. :)

It should definitely have a Technical Achievement, but the academy is suspect. Maybe we'll come to a point where it will be unavoidable.

Gavin Greenwalt
08-01-2013, 01:46 AM
Comparing the aesthetic of a movie is like comparing the aesthetic and look of of paintings in a museum. Most people in the art world don't look at a painting and start criticizing what paint brush the artist used. But movies ... WOW ... everyone is an expert

I take it you don't go to art museums with traditional artists often? When I go to a museum with my father he'll endlessly discuss the paint and the stroke technique, layering etc etc etc. If you think obsessing over the sausage making is unique to film makers spend some time around painters in a museum. In fact meticulously studying masters' work is traditionally an artist training. Study, reproduce, study, reproduce etc etc etc...

Gavin Greenwalt
08-01-2013, 02:01 AM
Seems like it is mostly a grading choice...

I actually think your match-grade emphasizes the difference even more. It exposes the "yellowing" of the skin-tones. My prediction is that Dragon's color science is going to be much improved. People are going to laude the amazing new Dragon image (rightfully so) and completely ignore the logical contradiction of celebrating something new and claiming the old had no room for improvement. Nobody is saying that RED is unusable. I own an Epic. I like the footage out of it. I just am hoping for certain areas to improve.

I can theoretically create a detailed 3D model by hand entering vertex positions. But a sculpting application like Zbrush makes it far easier. Just because it's theoretically possible to do something doesn't mean it's as simple as it should be. If people don't think there is any difference between RED's color rendition and film's color rendition (beyond the grade) and that people who see a difference are just imagining it they're living in denial. There is nothing magic to film. I'm not suggesting there is some spiritual soul to film that can't be reproduced, it's the fact that I know film is just a chemical LUT that drives me to push for my digital tools to be more heavily inspired by the the analog equivalents. Every sensor on earth is going to produce different looking images. Where differences exist people will have opinions.

I find it ludicrous that people are anxious to "See what dragon is capable of" but are simultaneously effectively saying that Mysterium X is perfect and therefore we shouldn't want to see any improvement in color etc.

Liam Hall
08-01-2013, 03:46 AM
I am the first to argue for the merits of digital. Especially in that digital could be made to look exactly like film with the proper LUT. But that's not to say that there isn't a big difference in the look between film and digital.

Compare gatsby to something like Romeo and Juliet:
http://imgs.littlewhitelies.co.uk/uploads/2013/02/Romeo-and-Juliet.jpg

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2013-05-11-GatsbyWarners.jpg

There is a huge difference in subliminal 'feel' between the two. I don't see why people are so vehemently opposed to striving to offer a more filmic LUT option.


I wouldn't say that takes a wine snob to tell the difference.


One looks tungsten, one looks LED.

David Battistella
08-01-2013, 05:13 AM
I'm not sure this is a great comparison.

Romeo and Juliette was probably not a digital DI, it was probably a film process. That same film would most likely have a digital DI no which would probably mean it would look much different now, than it did then.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117509/technical?ref_=tt_dt_spec


David

Jay A. Kelley
08-01-2013, 05:56 AM
I don't wan to throw this thread too far off base, but I find it odd that people who love Sony and ARRI cameras are not Jim Jannard's biggest fans.

Because of Jim and RED, you guys are paying at LEAST 30% less for your favorite cameras than you would if he had not come along.

Anybody remember what an F900 went for when it came out?

That said, wanna guess what features your Sony, ARRI, or anything else would have today if RED had not come out>

Hate 'em or love 'em, the effects on the industry, and the benefits to the consumers due to RED's existence are undeniable.

:001_tongue:

Andy Roberts
08-01-2013, 06:02 AM
I find it ludicrous that people are anxious to "See what dragon is capable of" but are simultaneously effectively saying that Mysterium X is perfect and therefore we shouldn't want to see any improvement in color etc.


I guess I'm a Red "nay sayer" as the MX sensor is substandard in my view (Alexa looks better, as does BMC). I thought it nearly ruined Gatsby, and a few others. Skin tones were crap. When they try pushing it around, it shows its limitations, especially when exposed brightly. The higher end doesn't hold up from my theater seat, and since I paid good money to see these things, my opinion is as valid as anyone else's, be they labeled "nay sayer" or whatever."

There is a LARGE CHASM between saying Epic-X is PERFECT and saying it is TRASH and that any filmmaker worthy of the title should NEVER use Red. The guy who got on here and said Gatsby color was TERRIBLE really is just goading. But for the record, anxiousness to see "what Dragon is capable of" has more to do with Dynamic Range and less to do with color science in my mind. I know SOME want to see the color science improved, but I for one, have no complaints. Is it PERFECT? There is ALWAYS room for improvement. But is it trash...? Well the person who thinks so just starts looking silly, similar to walking through an art museum and critiquing a Monet or DaVinci. Yes you can discuss and analyze brush strokes and technique, but to stand in judgement of the work just shows a tremendous lack of professionalism and good sense. Epic-X has proven itself. Dragon will pick up the torch and carry it farther. But that doesn't discount the tremendous tool that Epic-X currently is. And the same is true for Alexa. Is it trash? No. But history will show soon enough that shooting a 2K Alexa when a 5K Epic was an option was, in many cases, a misstep.