Lenses?

[Steve Gibby]

What types of lenses will you use for your EFP/ENG work?

Any specialty lenses?

Wide adapters and converters?

B4 2/3" and/or adapted cine lenses?

Follow focus or zoom servo, or both?

Brand lenses you like? Why? For what type of shooting?

Matte box or no matte box?

Filters you prefer? For what type of shooting?

[Paul Hazlett]

I am hoping my 16x6.3 fuji HD lens will not take too big a hit with the conversion or windowing. I have not really been able to crunch the numbers
since I cant multiply on my fingers and toes.

[Steve Gibby]

The field of view (FOV) on B4 2/3" HD lenses will be narrower when they're used on RED One. I expect zoom-through wide converters, and partial-zoom wide adapters, like those made by Century, 16x9, Cavision, and Red Eye to be commonplace on the front of B4 2/3" HD ENG zooms that are used on RED One. Everyone will be seeking to widen the FOV back out, and in the process shorten down the minimum focusing distance. They'll also be handy for increasing DOF, if needed for certain genres of shooting. Hopefully those types of converters and adapters will come down in price...converters can be pricey.

[chuck colburn]

Got that right Gibby. Ever check out the price for a Zeiss Aspheron converter for the 18mm Zeiss prime?
Ouch

[Steve Gibby]

No doubt...microeconomics and economies of scale definitely in effect there!

Moderate demand + low supply = high price

----------------------

With the B4 2/3" converters and adaptors the model is more like:

High demand + moderate supply = high price (In this situation I believe supply is artificially kept moderate or low in order to justify a higher price)

[tj williams]

Hi Gibby
Maybe I'm really wrong here, but talking to Les Z, I had the impression that the FOV was the same when using the Abakus converter. Supposedly it corrects the 3chip related problems.... and stretches the target area over the S16 size frame optically.

If it actually didn't do that and simply looked at a S16 size windowed sensor with a B4 lens, which was designed for 2/3" then it would probably vignette at the wide end anyhooo???

I would imagine the RED converter will work the same way...Or maybe better since it costs $500 more?

I have a very nice 18X plus doubler Canon HD zoom which I will use for these kinds of assignments. These clients expect the range with the doubler so S16 lenses would just be dissapointing to them. I do own a wide eye zoom through converter, but the end of the Canon HD lens is so large, about 100mm that it won't fit so is relegated to my old reliable Betacam.

I dont know how we can avoid using a matte box at least a light clip on because of the need to drop in ND filters.

[chuck colburn]

TJ,

First off let me just say I don't know what the optical design of the Abakus is either. I would assume that since it is correcting for chromatic abberations that I "hear" occur when using those types of lenses in a air space optical path, I would think that it is more of a relay type optical group then anything else. But I also believe if it increases the diameter of the circle of coverage, that it must have a power to it (albeit a small amount). Therefore I think that there is a magnification factor to the unit.
Then again I could be full of you know what!

Chuck

Let me add this for what it's worth; Traditonally converters were refered to as optical groups which mounted on the front of the lens and could be either plus or minus in power, and extenders mounted betwen the lens and camera and were always plus in power. Unless they were a 1 to 1 relay lens.

[Ken Corben]

What types of lenses will you use for your EFP/ENG work?

I'm hoping the Red 18-85mm will be the workhorse for my above water material from interviews to establishing shots etc on documentary shoots.

Any specialty lenses?

Ya, I have a deposit on a Zeiss 10mm prime for my underwater system and I will rent prime sets and longer zooms as required for clients and projects.

Wide adapters and converters?

I think not in 4K?

B4 2/3" and/or adapted cine lenses?

PL mount until I see results from other solutions.

Follow focus or zoom servo, or both?

Exterior f8 and up not necessary in doco work. Obviously yes for Red DP work on other projects. (Hey, I like the sound of Red DP).

Brand lenses you like? Why? For what type of shooting?

Zeiss, Cooke, Arri primes due to 4K underwater wide angle requirements and for edge to edge resolution on Mysterium - until I see or test other solutions?

Matte box or no matte box? Filters you prefer? For what type of shooting?

Definite yes for polas and ND's exterior day - interesting to see if tobaccos, promists and the like compare to digital rendering of looks in post?

[Milan Nikolic]

Set of Nikor primes and RED 300 mm for starter.

[Jared VanLeuven]

I'll be swapping out that PL mount for the Nikon as soon as the camera's unboxed. I'm extremely grateful for Evin's Nikkor tests.

[Andrew M.]

Gentleman, if we have Abakus stretching image across the whole S35 area,
what EFP/ENG lenses will you pick that will be really good quality withstanding the demand of the 4K resolution?

[Michael U]

I would like to be able to use my S16 Canon 8-64, currently with Aaton mount, with the RED. Any ideas on what the acceptable limits would be with regards to resolution/quality? 720P 1080P, 2K?

[Martin Drew]

I think the 8-64 is probably going to be an excellent match with the RedOne for a light weight package. The 8-64 will cover 2K windowed, so you can shoot any resolution 2K and down, either by windowing or scaling.

How are you going to mount it though, is it convertible to a PL mount or will you use an adapter?

M

[Michael U]

We actually had the lens changed from PL to Aaton years ago when we bought it in Holland, so I would probably go ahead and have it converted back to PL (at Abel Cine or other shop) rather than fuss with an adapter.

[Hans von Sonntag]

I think the 8-64 is probably going to be an excellent match with the RedOne for a light weight package. The 8-64 will cover 2K windowed, so you can shoot any resolution 2K and down, either by windowing or scaling.
M


Martin,

I shot with my old Arri SR S16 often with the Canon 8-64 and find it a very sharp lens, a real S16 classic. It matches my old 16mm Zeiss HighSpeeds pretty well.
I now purchased a Cooke 20-100 in pristine condition because I want the dof of 35mm. Its is about 4.5 kilos and totally understimated, you will find them around 3-5k. If the Red with the necessary accessories will not weight much more than my old Arri its going to be a unit that will work in an EFP environment nicely. For a well trained 16mm doc-shooter the 8-64 will be a perfect lens for ENG work, although it might be a bit short. Otherwise you have to use a B4 adaptor and an ENG HD-Zoom.

Slightly off topic: I don't find the RED One an ideal ENG Camera. For ENG work the camera-team has to hand over some sort of compatible data-carrier eg. tapes, discs etc., often in pretty high time pressure. As long as REDCODE is not a widely used working-codec in the world of news-tv I don't recon producer will accept RED One ENG-Teams. ENG ist not about pristine, arty pictures, ENG is about news and tight timings.

Hans "who knows how cool a big old Cooke looks on 35mm and don't cares about the extra kilos" von Sonntag

[Steve Gibby]

DANCAD3D: Interesting data and concepts! I like your line of thinking on that...

Hans: I agree with what you said about the limitations of RED One for pure electronic news gathering (ENG). See my definition of ENG in the Sticky post on the menu page of this forum. For ENG, IMO RED One is still a good candidate for non-time sensitive b-roll stringing of creative shots for doc-style segments, ins/outs/teases, etc.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Gibby:

Totally accepted! But if you want to shoot sensitive stuff, why not to shoot it 4k and 35mm lenses?
B-roll shots should work seamlessly in the film a team creates. If you have classic ENG stuff RED will not fit that well into this kind of production. You will use some Sony ENG equipment. If you use RED for b-roll stringing you will have the funny situation that b-roll looks much nicer than the a-stuff. Great. For shooting documentaries RED will be the camera of choice.

I suppose if you you put a decent 35mm lens on this camera only once you are screewed. You don't want to shoot with any other lenses any more. Reminds me of my self when I shot 15 years ago my first commercial on 35mm... and than had to go back shooting news. Hard times.

Keep the good stuff running,

Hans

Edit: The great thing about RED is its scalability. Get a 8-64 Canon Zoom for EFP and the ENG work you mentioned and for different stuff put a Cook zoom or primes on the camera. Still I don't think that
B4 adapted HD zooms deliver the quality RED deserves even in 1080p. I shoot a lot with HDCAM cameras and used a variety of lenses and found that the HD zoom are very expensive and by far inferior to a Canon 8-64 in terms of colour fringing and sharpness especially in the corners of the pictures. No wonder if you consider the zoom-ratio of 10 and more.

[Martin Drew]

Hans

The Cooke 20-100 looks like an excellent second hand buy and there seem to be a few of them around. I thought it might be a bit too heavy for much "on the shoulder" work, but great on a tripod.

M

[Andrew M.]

Hans

The Cooke 20-100 looks like an excellent second hand buy and there seem to be a few of them around. I thought it might be a bit too heavy for much "on the shoulder" work, but great on a tripod.

M

Do they sell wide angle adapter for this?
20 is bit to narrow, especially for 2K shooting.

[Steve Gibby]

I suppose if you you put a decent 35mm lens on this camera only once you are screewed. You don't want to shoot with any other lenses any more. Reminds me of my self when I shot 15 years ago my first commercial on 35mm... and than had to go back shooting news. Hard times.

LOL...once you've had steak it's hard to go back to hamburger!

Anything I can shoot with RED One using S35mm and 35mm still lenses, that the field workflow enables and justifies, I'll shoot that way. That said, many RED One adopters have already invested in B4 2/3" HD ENG zooms, and they work heavily in genres of production that call for a powered servo zoom, and no follow focus, matte box, etc. For them, when working in genres that call for those set up configurations, B4 2/3" HD ENG zoom use on RED One makes real good sense. Those genres of projects are delivered in 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 576i, and 480i.

I work in so many camera configurations and genres/sub-genres, that the very first thing I do when approaching a project is analyze what the very best equipment configuration is for that project, then figure out how to pull it off in a cost-effective way. I'm not hung up on cine-style or EFP style configurations, or combinations thereof - I just try to use the camera/lens/accessory setup that makes the best sense for the needed production values, workflow, and delivery medium of the project. What I don't own, I rent. IMO the beauty of RED One will be the scalability and flexibility to do what I just described.

With older B4 2/3" HD ENG zooms on RED One, the footage will probably be good, but with some of the newer B4 2/3" HD ENG zooms, I think the footage will be exceptional. The new ones are very expensive, so like I say, that's a logical option for those who already have them for their f900's and Varicams, but are now adopting RED One.

IMO the Canon 8-64 is an excellent lens. That said, I wouldn't buy any lenses between now and NAB. I would definitely wait until after NAB to make a lens buying decision...

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hans

The Cooke 20-100 looks like an excellent second hand buy and there seem to be a few of them around. I thought it might be a bit too heavy for much "on the shoulder" work, but great on a tripod.

M

Martin,

In 1989 I shot the breakdown of the Berlin Wall (Betacam, ENG of course). The first guy I met from the other side of the wall was a cameraman of the DEFA, the former communist national filmboard. He was shooting with an Arri 35 BL3 and a 25-250 Angenieux Zoom from his shoulder. This is heavy. He told me was doing this all the day. He actually used a wooden stick from the bottom of the camera to a special designed belt.

The 20-100 is 4.5 Kilos, another 0.5 for a LMB2 mattebox and followfocus and 5 Kilos for RED & media, battery. I end up with 10 -11 kilos. Heavy but not too heavy. Especially if you consider the balance options like moving the EVF to the front. For sure not an 10 hour ENG hand held configuration but usable for frequent hand held operation like you have in EFP, commercials or drama.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Do they sell wide angle adapter for this?
20 is bit to narrow, especially for 2K shooting.

Not as far I know (150mm diameter of the front lens). There are very nice Cooke 16mm lenses used on the market for windowed 2k and the great Canon 8-64 mentioned in this thread. And some where I came across a 20-100 / 18-100 redesigned for S16. I remember it has T 1.6 after conversion. Probably the best ever build S16 zoom... massive for this format though.

Hans

[Hans von Sonntag]

LOL...once you've had steak it's hard to go back to hamburger!

Anything I can shoot with RED One using S35mm and 35mm still lenses, that the field workflow enables and justifies, I'll shoot that way. That said, many RED One adopters have already invested in B4 2/3" HD ENG zooms, and they work heavily in genres of production that call for a powered servo zoom, and no follow focus, matte box, etc. For them, when working in genres that call for those set up configurations, B4 2/3" HD ENG zoom use on RED One makes real good sense. Those genres of projects are delivered in 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 576i, and 480i.

With older B4 2/3" HD ENG zooms on RED One, the footage will probably be good, but with some of the newer B4 2/3" HD ENG zooms, I think the footage will be exceptional. The new ones are very expensive, so like I say, that's a logical option for those who already have them for their f900's and Varicams, but are now adopting RED One.

IMO the Canon 8-64 is an excellent lens. That said, I wouldn't buy any lenses between now and NAB. I would definitely wait until after NAB to make a lens buying decision...

Never try steak then... LOL

You're absolutely right concerning all the folks who have already invested in expensive 2/3 gear. No doubt about it. For all the others who don't have a F900 in their garage and have to build up from the scratch i would not recommend B4 lenses. They are made for prism 3CCD systems and the B4 adaptor will probably not reach the quality the lenses have on a say Sony F 900. Also I never saw some one using adapted B4 lenses on S16 cameras.
I almost purchased a Sony F 750P HDCAM 1 years ago and I am glad I did not. If I would have done I certainly would sell it now. With lens.

Latest at NAB the price for decent used S35 optics will increase significantly.

Hans

[David Limpus]

What I was hoping for is a zoom servo with a rocker switch as an option for the RED 18-85mm f2.4 lense. Then to see where PL lense mounts go compared to B4 for EFP/ENG on REDone.

David

[Walter R]

As noted above, I think we may be disappointed in the reduced field of view (FOV) we get when using the adapter and shooting windowed 2K. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the windowed 2K frame on the Red sensor is actually a little smaller than the frame size of S16. Since the multiplication of the adapter (Abakus at least) is something like 1.32 x focal length, my Fujinon HD 20x7.5 lens go to almost 10mm on the wide end. And unless the optical widening of the coverage of the Red B4 adapter is less than the Abakus adapter I'll actually be widening the coverage more than necessary which, given the reduced frame size of 2K (vs. true S16), might even translate to the field of view I would get with something arond a 11mm lens on a true S16 frame.

I'm really hoping I'm wrong about this. But since I really rely on the wide end of the lens for a lot of ENG work, I think I'll have to go to S16 zooms, with the unfortunate consequence of not having nearly as much reach on the long end due to the range of S16 zooms. And of course I'll miss the built in servo zoom. I'm not complaining, but just want to plan accordingly since I'm not anxious to spend money on a B4 adapter if it will cost my some of the wide end of the FOV.

Am I missing something? Can someone on the Red team tell us more about their B4 adapter?

[Martin Drew]

This should only be the case if you are using the B4 adapter and capturing 1080p windowed. If you capture 2K windowed you should have pretty much the same FOV. Although the wide end of your lens will be 9.9mm you will get a greater FOV for than FL than you would have got at 1080p windowed.

M

[Steve Gibby]

An HD-quality zoom through wide converter, or partial zoom wide adapter (if full zoom not needed) would widen out shots even more. Most converters are .8x, with adapters being .7x and .8x - Schneider (Century), etc.

[Martin Drew]

Martin,

In 1989 I shot the breakdown of the Berlin Wall (Betacam, ENG of course). The first guy I met from the other side of the wall was a cameraman of the DEFA, the former communist national filmboard. He was shooting with an Arri 35 BL3 and a 25-250 Angenieux Zoom from his shoulder. This is heavy. He told me was doing this all the day. He actually used a wooden stick from the bottom of the camera to a special designed belt.

Wow! I now feel like a bit of a wimp.

M

[Damien Molineaux]

I'll be shooting with a Zeiss 12-120mm T2.4. I think it offers a good range, not too heavy. I hope it'll resolve 2k. Of course it is manual zoom, we'll have to see what the options are to add a motor.

Cheers,
Damien

[steevo435]

As noted above, I think we may be disappointed in the reduced field of view (FOV) we get when using the adapter and shooting windowed 2K. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the windowed 2K frame on the Red sensor is actually a little smaller than the frame size of S16. Since the multiplication of the adapter (Abakus at least) is something like 1.32 x focal length, my Fujinon HD 20x7.5 lens go to almost 10mm on the wide end. And unless the optical widening of the coverage of the Red B4 adapter is less than the Abakus adapter I'll actually be widening the coverage more than necessary which, given the reduced frame size of 2K (vs. true S16), might even translate to the field of view I would get with something arond a 11mm lens on a true S16 frame.

I'm really hoping I'm wrong about this. But since I really rely on the wide end of the lens for a lot of ENG work, I think I'll have to go to S16 zooms, with the unfortunate consequence of not having nearly as much reach on the long end due to the range of S16 zooms. And of course I'll miss the built in servo zoom. I'm not complaining, but just want to plan accordingly since I'm not anxious to spend money on a B4 adapter if it will cost my some of the wide end of the FOV.

Am I missing something? Can someone on the Red team tell us more about their B4 adapter?

I hope you are wrong too. I don't think (not sure) that there are any B4 mounted cameras that don't use a 2/3" sensor. I would assume Red's windowed sensor is designed to mimic 2/3" size. You will be able to use your abakus on the Red, like you said though you will lose the wide end. At the same time, would you buy another $3500 adapter that doesn't magnify to cover S16? It doesn't seem logical to me that they would build an adapter that you couldn't use onS16 as well.
It will be interesting to see where this goes...

[tj williams]

The field of view (FOV) on B4 2/3" HD lenses will be narrower when they're used on RED One. I expect zoom-through wide converters, and partial-zoom wide adapters, like those made by Century, 16x9, Cavision, and Red Eye to be commonplace on the front of B4 2/3" HD ENG zooms that are used on RED One. Everyone will be seeking to widen the FOV back out, and in the process shorten down the minimum focusing distance. They'll also be handy for increasing DOF, if needed for certain genres of shooting. Hopefully those types of converters and adapters will come down in price...converters can be pricey.from Gibby at the front of this thread.


Hi Gibby
Maybe I'm really wrong here, but talking to Les Z, I had the impression that the FOV was the same when using the Abakus converter. Supposedly it corrects the 3chip related problems.... and stretches the target area over the S16 size frame optically.

If it actually didn't do that and simply looked at a S16 size windowed sensor with a B4 lens, which was designed for 2/3" then it would probably vignette at the wide end anyhooo???

I would imagine the RED converter will work the same way...Or maybe better since it costs $500 more?

I have a very nice 18X plus doubler Canon HD zoom which I will use for these kinds of assignments. These clients expect the range with the doubler so S16 lenses would just be dissapointing to them. I do own a wide eye zoom through converter, but the end of the Canon HD lens is so large, about 100mm that it won't fit so is relegated to my old reliable Betacam.

I dont know how we can avoid using a matte box at least a light clip on because of the need to drop in ND filters.
Form me, to Gibby I asked the questions above which he probably didn't see and therefore didn't answer.

Gibby can you straighten this out?

one cam martin steevo435: curious as to where you got the information you just posted.......

1. Where does it say the windowed RED sensor is a different size in 2K than 1080I? or for that matter in 720P? I don't get this from Gibby's post?

2. Where does it say the windowed sensor is a different size than S16? Gibby seems to be saying this but I would like to be sure of this since Les Zelig seems to be saying somthing different?

3. Where does it say that the B4 with Adapter will not perform as well as it does on the HD Cam? Again from Les He says it will work very well.

[Walter R]

The Red format chart lists 11.1x6.3mm as the frame size for 2K, but a true S16 frame is actually more like 12.5x7.4 mm. If I am right about both of these (feel free to direct me to other info), then the Abakus is probably stretching the lens' coverage more than it would need to for covering the Red's 2K window size. This means that some of the image from the lens is being lost since it falls outside the 2K window, effectively reducing the FOV of my lens.

The net result for me is that in terms of field of view my 2/3" B4 HD lens that is 7.5mmX20 might feel more like it is a 8.5mmx20 (in terms of 2/3" FOV equivalents). Because of this, I am seriously considering selling the lens and getting some good s16 zooms and a nice grip-mounted zoom controller instead.




one cam martin steevo435: curious as to where you got the information you just posted.......

1. Where does it say the windowed RED sensor is a different size in 2K than 1080I? or for that matter in 720P? I don't get this from Gibby's post?

2. Where does it say the windowed sensor is a different size than S16? Gibby seems to be saying this but I would like to be sure of this since Les Zelig seems to be saying somthing different?

3. Where does it say that the B4 with Adapter will not perform as well as it does on the HD Cam? Again from Les He says it will work very well.

[tj williams]

Now that is truly ODD! S16 Camera aperture 12.52 by 7.41 typical projector aperture in 185 is 11.76 by 6.37, I can't find it for 16/9 but would be close to 11.1
you say the RED windowed sensor is 11.1 by 6.3 from the RED Site.

It's almost like they confused the projector and camera gate when deciding on the window size. Thanks for the info. I wonder if this is a thing RED can still address? It's certainly goofy enough that it needs to be reworked if it can be? I also own an 8.5 wide end HD lens, and it's usually not wide enough!!!

[steevo435]

Hold on...
OneCam says Reds format chart lists 11.2*6.3 as 2k window. That is exactly the same size as 1.78 on S16, so they are extracting 16/9 from S16 size frame. The 12.5x7.4 mm number refers to full 1.66 S16.
The Abakus converter magnifies 1.3, so 2/3" B4 lenses get magnified to cover Full Frame 1.66 Super 16.....Les is right saying the abakus maintains FOV, if you are shooting S16 1.66, it will be slightly different for 1.78 (16/9)

"Where does it say that the B4 with Adapter will not perform as well as it does on the HD Cam? Again from Les He says it will work very well."

No where. This is total speculation.

[Steve Gibby]

Sorry for the late reply TJ. Hectic schedule lately...

I believe steevo435 is correct in his last post. My earlier post on this thread about B4 2/3" FOV appears to be incorrect. I'll look forward to testing the RED B4 adaptor, which is reportedly a modification of the Abakas. After NAB sometime, when I get RED #8, I have a pro team of other DP's and a great post guy (Mike Curtis) lined up in L.A. to do some real world shooting tests with RED #8 in 4k RC RAW and 2k RC RAW. The RBG capability of RED #8 will be added at a future date, so we won't be able to do any 1080p RGB or 720p RGB in those L.A. tests, thus no B4 adaptor/2'3" HD ENG zoom tests at that time. As soon as #8 is upgraded with RGB capability I'll do some real world shooting with the B4 adaptor/2/3" HD ENG zoom setup and post my impressions.

I'll post more info on the L.A. tests of RED #8 sometime soon...

[Damien Molineaux]

Hi Gibby,

If the B4 adaptor is available and will, as predicted, magnify the image to cover 2k, you should be able to use HD lenses to shoot 2k, no ? So, should you be so inclined, you could do some testing with HD lenses. Anyhow, I hope you'll share with us your findings, I look forward to hearing from the various tests from the first batch of Red Ones.

Cheers,
Damien

[Steve Gibby]

If the B4 adaptor is available and will, as predicted, magnify the image to cover 2k, you should be able to use HD lenses to shoot 2k, no ? So, should you be so inclined, you could do some testing with HD lenses.

Good point Damien. I think I'll probably wait until the RGB capability of the camera is added to test the B4 adapter/2/3" HD ENG zooms. That way I can test the setup in all the covered formats in the same overall testing session. That could change though. If we have time in the L.A. tests we may do some B4 adaptor/2/3" HD ENG zoom tests in 2k RC RAW.

[tj williams]

Thanks for the correction steevo435. Numbers have never been my strong point either, obvious solution when thought through!. Good to see the windowed sensor is going to be right for proper coverage with S16/modified HD B4s.

Hi Gibby
Maybe les Z would loan you one of the Abakus adapters for the tests? Certainly he seems to have great confidence in them and the advertising value if it works well, would be worth a bit to him.

Interesting to see how 2K Image quality, holds up against 4K when downconverted to HD an SD. How much oversampling is useful anyway???

I'm also hoping you an your posse will test 35mm 2K and windowed 2K with the 4K tests.

All The Best,
TJ