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Jannard
08-02-2013, 12:42 AM
I have to say they we have tested just about every combination of lenses with the Dragon sensor and the Leicas win.

This really should be no surprise.

All the Leicas cover the full sensor and have the most resolution of all lenses tested.

While some lenses will necessitate dropping down to 5.5K to cover... the Leicas don't. The resolution of these lenses are completely matched with the Dragon sensor.

Just sayin'.

Jim

Patrick O'Sullivan
08-02-2013, 12:44 AM
Great. Now to come up with the 200Gs.

I guess the age old you get what you pay for rings true again.

Jannard
08-02-2013, 12:48 AM
Of course all other lenses will work at 5K-6K with varying results. And no matter what you use you get the dynamic range advantage of the Dragon. The Leicas are just the best of the best.

Jim

Shervin Mandgaryan
08-02-2013, 12:49 AM
Great. Now to come up with the 200Gs.

Actually 200G's and a 3 year wait time!

I know a fellow filmmaker who has a set of Leica Summulix-C's and has had an inkling that they would be incredible on the Dragon sensor.

Thanks for confirming that Jim. We hope to do a test once he gets his Epic-M Dragon!

Tom Lowe
08-02-2013, 12:50 AM
Got my set of Leicas ready. http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/icons/icon14.png

Phil Holland
08-02-2013, 12:53 AM
The Leica Summilux-C Primes are the best super speed primes I have ever used. I have had the pleasure of shooting with them 5 times now, including a couple of "intimate" tests.

They are technically superb and actually have some lovely character to them. At each T stop across the set they have their own unique look due to the iris design.

Whatever they are doing in their coatings it is clearly alien technology.

One of these days I'll figure out a way to get a set.

Milano Questa
08-02-2013, 12:53 AM
Was the protruding lens bit fixed? I read somewhere that the 21/1.4 (and several other Leicas) couldn't be mounted on an Epic

Phil Holland
08-02-2013, 12:55 AM
Was the protruding lens bit fixed? I read somewhere that the 21/1.4 (and several other Leicas) couldn't be mounted on an Epic

Used one two weeks ago. Mounted fine on the Red TI PL mount.

Shervin Mandgaryan
08-02-2013, 12:56 AM
Was the protruding lens bit fixed? I read somewhere that the 21/1.4 (and several other Leicas) couldn't be mounted on an Epic

They all fit fine on the standard PL mount.

KETCH ROSSi
08-02-2013, 01:01 AM
This is a FANTASTIC news Jim!!

Ever since shooting with the Leica Summilux Cine Primes I have fallen in love all over again, even so the Master Primes still have their strong place in the market, it is mostly do to the fact that the Leica Cine Primes miss lot's of Focal lengths as of today, but when they'll have a truly full set out, then the Master Primes will no longer be King, but as far as Image quality in resolution, well, the Leica Cine Primes are already the absolute supreme King... ;)

Now if only Band Pro would make good on my first reservation do last June... ;)


Btw, for those that need a reminder of how incredibly SEXY the Leica S. Cine Primes look on the RED EPIC... ;)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41136&d=1375432497


http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41137&d=1375432506

http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41138&d=1375432741

dino g
08-02-2013, 01:02 AM
what about the MASTER PRIMES, DO THEY COVER?


THANK YOU FO EVERYTHING

Detlev Eller
08-02-2013, 01:02 AM
It´s wonderful ... :-)

KETCH ROSSi
08-02-2013, 01:07 AM
Was the protruding lens bit fixed? I read somewhere that the 21/1.4 (and several other Leicas) couldn't be mounted on an Epic


The issue with some of the protruding rear elements off the Leica is only with the Still Glass ones, especially with the M series and the RED Leica M mount, with the wides and super wides form 35mm down.

The new Leica Summilux Cine Primes were made for PL mount, and have absolutely no issues with any camera on PL mount.

Tom Lowe
08-02-2013, 01:08 AM
We are only using MPs to cover the missing focal lengths of Summulix Cs.

Asif Limbada
08-02-2013, 01:09 AM
:sifone:...Smartest thing I did since getting an EPIC.

charles lim yi yong
08-02-2013, 01:12 AM
Will the new RED dragon be able to accept lecia m lens full summilux range?

Sanjin Jukic
08-02-2013, 01:15 AM
I have to say they we have tested just about every combination of lenses with the Dragon sensor and the Leicas win.

This really should be no surprise.

All the Leicas cover the full sensor and have the most resolution of all lenses tested.

While some lenses will necessitate dropping down to 5.5K to cover... the Leicas don't. The resolution of these lenses are completely matched with the Dragon sensor.

Just sayin'.

Jim

No doubts.

Iain Neil, Leica Summilux C PL lens designer told us years before that the Summilux C will cover 6K+....!!!!

"...these lenses were designed to perform extremely well for not only 4K, but also 6K, 8K, and well beyond."

LINK>>> (http://www.fdtimes.com/pdfs/articles/leica/32-33FDT-8-1Leica.pdf)

It's a time to invest in Leica!!!

Matthew Glover
08-02-2013, 01:25 AM
Newb question. So will I still get some amazing results using master primes at 6k?

Filip Orlandic
08-02-2013, 01:38 AM
Newb question. So will I still get some amazing results using master primes at 6k?
Absolutely!!!

Jannard
08-02-2013, 01:40 AM
Yes... absolutely. And at 6K.

You will also get great results with Ultra Primes at 5.5K. And good results with Canon and Nikon mount lenses at 6K.

I am just talking the best of the best.

Jim


Newb question. So will I still get some amazing results using master primes at 6k?

Shervin Mandgaryan
08-02-2013, 01:41 AM
Newb question. So will I still get some amazing results using master primes at 6k?

Actually no... your Master Primes are now rendered worthless and must be surrendered to the new Leica supreme authority to be melted down and turned into Coke bottles. Just kidding :)

Matt Ryan
08-02-2013, 01:43 AM
what about the MASTER PRIMES, DO THEY COVER?


THANK YOU FO EVERYTHING

I believe when we tested the 35 and up covers, but below that was sketch. 18 didn't cover and can't remember if the 25 did or not.

Jannard
08-02-2013, 01:46 AM
Tested on what?

Jim


I believe when we tested the 35 and up covers, but below that was sketch. 18 didn't cover and can't remember if the 25 did or not.

Matt Ryan
08-02-2013, 01:48 AM
Tested on what?

Jim

http://matthayslett.com/salt-iii-high-speed-lens-shootout-wfo/

High speed lens shootout Will and I put together at your studio and at Duclos. At that time we just had prelim Dragon coverage info so we tested. Didn't have an actual Dragon.

Brice Ansel
08-02-2013, 01:58 AM
And no matter what you use you get the dynamic range advantage of the Dragon. The Leicas are just the best of the best.

Jim

Glad to hear I'm lense futur proof.
Just wondering if my CZ Contax will do as well as my Leica's.
B.

Shawn Nelson
08-02-2013, 02:01 AM
Will my RPPS cover 6k on Dragon?

Phil Holland
08-02-2013, 02:01 AM
http://matthayslett.com/salt-iii-high-speed-lens-shootout-wfo/

High speed lens shootout Will and I put together at your studio and at Duclos. At that time we just had prelim Dragon coverage info so we tested. Didn't have an actual Dragon.

Yes, but as that wasn't exactly the best way to test that then we didn't make accurate notes on coverage and due to a variety of other variables we really needed to test them on Dragon, which is why that wasn't published.

However, somewhat recently we did actually test coverage on most modern day primes with Dragon. Waiting on Jarred to release that info officially.

Zooms are next.

Asif Limbada
08-02-2013, 02:04 AM
Apart from the Image coverage, the pure handling and size is phenomenal. And don't get me started on the sharpness, non-existent CA, skin tones and that filmic focus fall off all of which combines to give sharp and organic imagery. Makes it "Film" as I put it :yesnod:

Its as if Master Primes and Cooke's were combined, with all the good characteristics from each of them.

David (dudi) Namir
08-02-2013, 02:09 AM
As we have two sets of the Leica Summilux-C maybe now that the Dragon is out I should get an Epic?
A link to a commercial we just shot recently. 2 days, 2 Epics, 1 Flex, set Leica Van diemen, Century lightweight zoom 17-35mm on a steadycam, Cooke 25-250 MK3 and a few GoPro (the gadget camera).
Sprite summer 2013 shot at the dead sea Israel.
https://vimeo.com/71562905
By the way we are going to have our 29mm and 65mm very soon.

KETCH ROSSi
08-02-2013, 02:09 AM
Agreed Asif...

I smell Zeiss working on making Arri a new set of Master Primes (mini)... ;)

Matt Ryan
08-02-2013, 02:12 AM
Yes, but as that wasn't exactly the best way to test that then we didn't make accurate notes on coverage and due to a variety of other variables we really needed to test them on Dragon, which is why that wasn't published.

However, somewhat recently we did actually test coverage on most modern day primes with Dragon. Waiting on Jarred to release that info officially.

Zooms are next.

Obviously, but we tested the only way we could at that time with the only information we had... I didn't say it was definitive, but believe me I took notes...

Testing on camera is the best way, lucky you got to do that. I would have loved an invite ;)

paulherrin
08-02-2013, 02:25 AM
pics or it didn't happen, jim

hehe, but seriously :)

David Collard
08-02-2013, 02:35 AM
Yes... absolutely. And at 6K.

You will also get great results with Ultra Primes at 5.5K. And good results with Canon and Nikon mount lenses at 6K.

I am just talking the best of the best.

Jim

Thanks for clarifying this point.

Phil Holland
08-02-2013, 02:53 AM
To add to the Leica talk. The Summicron-C primes are "supposed" to be rather lovely as well. There's a few folks who have them pre-ordered. Can't wait to see those.

Lee Saxon
08-02-2013, 02:54 AM
...including a couple of "intimate" tests.

You used them to make a sex tape?!?!

jamesbridges
08-02-2013, 03:00 AM
When Jim said Leica, did he mean the "Cinema" and or the "Still" lenses?
Just checking....

Phil Holland
08-02-2013, 03:06 AM
You used them to make a sex tape?!?!

You don't want to see how I handle a lens :)

By intimate tests though, I mean spending some quality time with them. Usually this involves me going to a quite place and stress testing them under various lighting conditions. It's me time. Technical note taking time. More somewhat "emotional" time as well. Learning the feel of the glass.

It's a difficult subject, but besides purely looking at technical performance, there's a good deal of somewhat intangible things to be learned from a set of glass.

I've been pretty fortunate in my career to have shot with damn near every prime lens available (and some not). Zooms however, particularly in the last two years, have been what I've been working on learning about lately. The problem these days, is every 5 minutes ( <-- exaggeration ) a new lens hits the market!

Brice Ansel
08-02-2013, 03:07 AM
When Jim said Leica, did he mean the "Cinema" and or the "Still" lenses?
Just checking....

You are probably right about the cine lenses VS Still lenses.
Leica R shoudn't be that bad thought.
B.

KETCH ROSSi
08-02-2013, 03:07 AM
When Jim said Leica, did he mean the "Cinema" and or the "Still" lenses?
Just checking....

I am most positive He meant the Leica Summilux Cine Primes, as the Leica M mounted on the RED M mount don't fit at the wide range.

The 50mm Noctilux was the wider I mounted successfully on the RED Epic, the Leica M still glass is the best 35mm glass out there, but unfortunately does not offer a wide angle options for the Epic at this time.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41139&d=1375437992

David Kellermann
08-02-2013, 03:11 AM
If anyone is interested... I'm in talks with some companies (Van Diemen, Eastern Enterprises, GL optics...) about a group buy of completely rehoused Leica still lenses. More info in this thread (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?98931-Rehoused-Nikon-AIs-or-Leica-group-buy&p=1232745&viewfull=1#post1232745).

Harcharan Singh
08-02-2013, 03:24 AM
Hi Jim,

Thanks for the info....any word on coverage of Cooke S5i lenses with Dragon...

Harcharan

Justen Nguyen
08-02-2013, 03:55 AM
Dragon is such a game changer. Makes me wonder if and how other companies are going to react.

jamesbridges
08-02-2013, 03:56 AM
I am most positive He meant the Leica Summilux Cine Primes, as the Leica M mounted on the RED M mount don't fit at the wide range.

The 50mm Noctilux was the wider I mounted successfully on the RED Epic, the Leica M still glass is the best 35mm glass out there, but unfortunately does not offer a wide angle options for the Epic at this time.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41139&d=1375437992

Makes sense...thanks

David Battistella
08-02-2013, 05:08 AM
I have to put leica R glass at the top of stills glass available in all focus lengths, there really is "something" about their design and all,optics produced by Leica. If you get the best Leica R, you will be amazed.

Im not putting it up against this new leica cine glass, but there is a strong history of excellence in lens design that is not lost on the older glass.

Old nikon glass is quite sweet as well. It's amazing how th the older stuff seems to have been better made.

david

Jason Diamond
08-02-2013, 05:37 AM
I can't wait to put my set of Leica-R's on my Dragon(s). Not only should they cover the full 6K but I think their resolving power and unique Leica glory will be incredible.

Andy Roberts
08-02-2013, 06:20 AM
I stretched to buy Epic and stretched to upgrade to Dragon. My Canon L Lenses are just going to have to be sufficient. I always feel this need to use the best but $200K is just not going to happen in my lifetime. Maybe some good rental prices will happen at some point.

KETCH ROSSi
08-02-2013, 06:59 AM
Well, if we are to talk about all Leica Still glass here, then it must be mentioned that the absolute Best EVER still glass is the Medium Format Glass form Leica, it simply has no equals in any class, and that is the S2 Series Leica glass...

Now, I still look forward to the possibility to have a RED Leica S2 Mount... ;)

However, aside from having to deal with how the Medium Format glass Focal reflects on the Dragon and MX sensors is an other story, of course the S2 series Leica Still glass is also amongst the most expensive still glass out there.


Nonetheless if RED was to build a RED Leica S2 Mount, I would be the first one on board... ;)

Nick Morrison
08-02-2013, 07:25 AM
Yes, but as that wasn't exactly the best way to test that then we didn't make accurate notes on coverage and due to a variety of other variables we really needed to test them on Dragon, which is why that wasn't published.

However, somewhat recently we did actually test coverage on most modern day primes with Dragon. Waiting on Jarred to release that info officially.

Zooms are next.

WOW. Sh*t is getting real. Phil has been busy...



It's amazing how the the older stuff seems to have been better made.

david

Completely agree.

David Battistella
08-02-2013, 07:41 AM
Nick,

i was waiting for a contax plug! LOL

i think it is safe to say that dragon is going to open up whole new captive possibilities with any and all glass that we use. I think the early reports from Jim with the Leica might mean that this fire breathing Dragon sensor is resolving and showing off these lenses to the max!

I mean you could test on film and do 6k scans, but why not just shot 6k dragon?

Its great when Jim shares like this.

david



WOW. Sh*t is getting real. Phil has been busy...



Completely agree.

Nick Morrison
08-02-2013, 07:55 AM
Nick,

i was waiting for a contax plug! LOL



Haha. It took a lot to restrain myself, trust me.

Brice Ansel
08-02-2013, 08:14 AM
Haha. It took a lot to restrain myself, trust me.

Why restraining yourself ?
I didn't. ;-)

Glad to hear I'm lense futur proof.
Just wondering if my CZ Contax will do as well as my Leica's.
B.

Nick Morrison
08-02-2013, 08:18 AM
Why restraining yourself ?
I didn't. ;-)

Haha. Fair point, I can't wait to see the Contax 100-300, 60 Macro, 35 1.4 and many others blaze out on Dragon at 6K...that IS true!

Will Keir
08-02-2013, 10:13 AM
Jim,

Which Lecia sets did you test? The Summilux C's? Maybe even the rare Summicron C?


I have to say they we have tested just about every combination of lenses with the Dragon sensor and the Leicas win.

This really should be no surprise.

All the Leicas cover the full sensor and have the most resolution of all lenses tested.

While some lenses will necessitate dropping down to 5.5K to cover... the Leicas don't. The resolution of these lenses are completely matched with the Dragon sensor.

Just sayin'.

Jim

Will Keir
08-02-2013, 10:23 AM
we really needed to test them on Dragon...

Zooms are next.

I couldn't agree more, I'll start making the connects for SALT IV. It's been too long!

Will Keir
08-02-2013, 10:29 AM
We have a set on preorder, they keep being pushed back. Is there even a working set out in LA yet?




To add to the Leica talk. The Summicron-C primes are "supposed" to be rather lovely as well. There's a few folks who have them pre-ordered. Can't wait to see those.

Phil Holland
08-02-2013, 10:55 AM
We have a set on preorder, they keep being pushed back. Is there even a working set out in LA yet?

I haven't seen anything except for the initial prototypes out in the wild. I'd say you've got a bit of a wait before you see a full ranged set.

KETCH ROSSi
08-02-2013, 11:01 AM
Actually I have been told by a little bird that their roll out on the Summicron Cine Primes will be lot faster and in larger quantities then the Summilux Cine Primes.

I just hope that BandPro get their S&^%$# together... ;)

Phil Holland
08-02-2013, 11:06 AM
Actually I have been told by a little bird that their roll out on the Summicron Cine Primes will be lot faster and in larger quantities then the Summilux Cine Primes.

I just hope that BandPro get their S&^%$# together... ;)

I'm sure they will be made faster once released :)

Chad Bonanno
08-02-2013, 11:18 AM
NICE! The last thing I saw on the big screen that blew me away was The Conjuring , shot with Summilux lenses. oh my! what a beautiful look those lenses produce!

C.H.Haskell
08-02-2013, 11:18 AM
Surprise surprise. Apparently they were designed to resolve 8k so the dragon has some breathing room. ;) Thanks for the update Jim...do you have a set available at RED hollywood?

Nick Morrison
08-02-2013, 11:24 AM
Surprise surprise. Apparently they were designed to resolve 8k so the dragon has some breathing room. ;) Thanks for the update Jim...do you have a set available at RED hollywood?

Does that mean they are full frame?

Les Hillis
08-02-2013, 03:09 PM
I still can't get over how good the Leica-M and Mysterium-X combination can look sometimes.

Not the best example of what I'm talking about, but indicative (to me anyway) of the magic RED and Leica together can reveal in even the most mundane subject-matter - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgSBXwD8Nok

It's mind-boggling to think how amazing Leica C/Dragon generated images could look.

( No doubt I could make them look like shit, but that's not the point.)

Nice to know the current pinnacle of lens and camera technologies are compatible and ready to go.

Thanks.

Nick Morrison
08-02-2013, 03:30 PM
I still can't get over how good the Leica-M and Mysterium-X combination can look sometimes.

Not the best example of what I'm talking about, but indicative (to me anyway) of the magic RED and Leica together can reveal in even the most mundane subject-matter - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgSBXwD8Nok

It's mind-boggling to think how amazing Leica C/Dragon generated images could look.

( No doubt I could make them look like shit, but that's not the point.)

Nice to know the current pinnacle of lens and camera technologies are compatible and ready to go.

Thanks.

Leica M lenses are interesting. Rangefinder lenses, because they sit closer to the negative, I believe are able to deliver a level of clarity that is very, very intriguing.

Christopher Barrett
08-02-2013, 03:49 PM
I put my name down on a set of Summicron's after NAB. The part-timer they had working the booth said they would not likely cover 6k, tho. Anxious to see spec.s.

Eric Z
08-02-2013, 03:58 PM
I still think that my statement "Ain't nothing like Master Primes" holds true.
Those cine Leicas come very close, though.

Carlos Gonzalez
08-02-2013, 04:07 PM
Yes, we have a set.


We have a set on preorder, they keep being pushed back. Is there even a working set out in LA yet?

Andy Roberts
08-02-2013, 04:10 PM
Yes, we have a set.

Summilux or Summicron? I see on your site that you have Summilux. I think they were talking about the newer "value" priced (cough, cough) Summicron.

Carlos Gonzalez
08-02-2013, 04:14 PM
The Summilux-C, the ones we own, are the Cine lenses Jim is referring to in this thread and have a 3 year wait. At this point we are missing the 16mm and the 65mm.


Summilux or Summicron? I see on your site that you have Summilux. I think they were talking about the newer "value" priced (cough, cough) Summicron.

Will Keir
08-02-2013, 04:38 PM
I'm happy, Dragon, fast glass = see in the motherfucking dark!!


I haven't seen anything except for the initial prototypes out in the wild. I'd say you've got a bit of a wait before you see a full ranged set.

Will Keir
08-02-2013, 04:42 PM
Who is we?


Yes, we have a set.

Carlos Gonzalez
08-02-2013, 05:07 PM
My business partners and I.


Who is we?

Brian F Kobylarz
08-02-2013, 05:50 PM
I have to say they we have tested just about every combination of lenses with the Dragon sensor and the Leicas win.

This really should be no surprise.

All the Leicas cover the full sensor and have the most resolution of all lenses tested.

While some lenses will necessitate dropping down to 5.5K to cover... the Leicas don't. The resolution of these lenses are completely matched with the Dragon sensor.

Just sayin'.

Jim



Jim,

Really fantastic news. While looking forward to the opportunity to try the Leicas out for the first time myself, you have piqued my curiosity.

While testing "just about every combination of lenses with the Dragon sensor", can you share any notes (perhaps a chart) that shows what lenses cover what?

I don't think anyone would mind a "work in progress" - we won't tell! (promise)

Any results you can share on how the Pro Primes worked with the Dragon?

Brian Merlen
08-02-2013, 05:57 PM
I wonder what a Noctilux cine modded would do on a Dragon? Shoot in pitch darkness without noise lol?

Roberto Lequeux
08-02-2013, 07:56 PM
This is it...

RED + Leica = :willy_nilly:

Just sayin' :)

Les Hillis
08-02-2013, 09:20 PM
Leica M lenses are interesting. Rangefinder lenses, because they sit closer to the negative, I believe are able to deliver a level of clarity that is very, very intriguing.

Colour me intrigued for sure. I'm fascinated by the similar results the Zeiss glass can give too, some good examples of which can be seen in that Contax thread of yours (thanks for that).

For Leica to have matched or even bettered that quality of imagery though, while overcoming the mechanical problems stills glass has when capturing moving pictures, really is an achievement.

Ken Robings
08-02-2013, 10:14 PM
The short answer to Nick's quote above is that almost all FF35 lenses are a inverted telephoto design (until you get up into the true telephoto designs) because they had to clear the SLR mirror, and the Leica rangefinders did not. If you follow the new digital M series over the last few years, they have had their problems with the rear element being "close" to the sensor, and have had to take that into consideration when designing the newest chip (and I think the micro-lens covering of same).
I talked to the Leica guy at NAB, and he said the Summicrons will cover Dragon (but not 8k, which we don't know anything about yet, especially the possible dia. of any possible chip, did I say possible?).
Ken Robings
digitaloptik.net

Tim Morten
08-02-2013, 10:33 PM
I wish someone would make a set of Leica's with a pricetag like RPP's... :)

There's a problem worthy of a genius billionaire!

Nick Morrison
08-02-2013, 10:53 PM
The short answer to Nick's quote above is that almost all FF35 lenses are a inverted telephoto design (until you get up into the true telephoto designs) because they had to clear the SLR mirror, and the Leica rangefinders did not.
digitaloptik.net

Exactly. It's not uncommon to find stills guys who say rangefinder systems are amongst the sharpest they've ever worked with. Certainly sharper than standard SLR setups...again presumably because of how CLOSE the optics get to the negative. This closeness does seem to have encountered challenges in the transition to digital, but in theory...if everything works well together...these lenses could be a very interesting pairing with Dragon.

Carlo Rho
08-03-2013, 01:00 AM
We've ordered our set of Summilux-C just before NAB '11 and hopefully they will be delivered next september with our Dragons, it's pretty funny how 2 always delayed companies sync for us after almost 3 years.
I'll need 120.000€ but an other guy in Madrid is spending 120.000.000€ for Bale and that means tons of jobs!!!
So if you're coming to Madrid to shoot Gareth and/or Cristiano we're the only company that can offer you Dragons+Leica+Qtake+everything you could need.
Remember we're ILL Cámaras but our stuff is pretty sane!

Kevin Gansemans
08-03-2013, 01:44 AM
How about the Zeiss Super Speed MK III?

KETCH ROSSi
08-03-2013, 01:57 AM
We've ordered our set of Summilux-C just before NAB '11 and hopefully they will be delivered next september...

Best of luck with that Carlo,

hopefully they wan't do to you what they are doing to me... Saying that they can't find a reservation, were I was supposed to get my first set last June...

We'll have to pay a visit in person and talk to the Head at Band Pro, as this is completely unprofessional on their part!



Now looks like my new order will not be do till mid 2014 :(


Yet I am still very grateful about the Leica Summilux Cine Prime loaner during the OctoberFest shoot form the guys in Munich, I guess some one no longer works there, that is my only explanation, when they seemed so excited about me getting a set as they sure knew the advertisement I would give this lenses.

Carlo Rho
08-03-2013, 02:44 AM
Hi Ketch,
I hope your order went now fine, they can't loose mine becouse I've paid 6450€ in 2011 for the reservation and they can't loose the money!
Actually they wrote me in January as they were ready for june and in june they push it to september, I hope they don't push them again because my DoP wants them badly and money are so cheap right now at least in EU.
I know the ex-sale rep of BandPro Munich moved to Codex last year, great guy, but I keep in touch with the new head at BandPro and he doen't sound proud of Leica's delivery times so I believe it's a production problem or he's covering sales to people with tons of €€€$$$€€€ to jump the cue, I can be angry about it but I can't compete.

KETCH ROSSi
08-03-2013, 03:00 AM
Well, it went all but fine, but I'll take it up to them i person as I can, either in Germany, or in LA when I get there.


Pushes back in delivery dates are a given this days, and that is completely understandable, no issues there, my issue is that you can't loose some one's reservation... Period!


I actually was going to make a trip to Leica Manufacturing before coming back to LA, let's see if I make it, and if they let me shoot some Epic footage there.. ;)

George A.
08-03-2013, 06:22 AM
Best of luck with that Carlo,

hopefully they wan't do to you what they are doing to me... Saying that they can't find a reservation, were I was supposed to get my first set last June...

We'll have to pay a visit in person and talk to the Head at Band Pro, as this is completely unprofessional on their part!



Now looks like my new order will not be do till mid 2014 :(


Yet I am still very grateful about the Leica Summilux Cine Prime loaner during the OctoberFest shoot form the guys in Munich, I guess some one no longer works there, that is my only explanation, when they seemed so excited about me getting a set as they sure knew the advertisement I would give this lenses.

Did you put down a deposit for the reservation?

KETCH ROSSi
08-03-2013, 06:34 AM
The first reservation was done in person at Band Pro Munich.

Fact is that my June 2013 delivery date is no were to be found in their files, they told me, so now I have june 2014 delivery date... Really sucks... :(


I don't know if I should post the original paper work here, so I don't but... Just look at the dates... At the end this might very well be a case of completely misunderstood misrepresented protocol of execution, either way it sucks that they can't find and acknowledge the first order, but at the end of the day, I love the Leica S. Cine Primes os much that all this means no difference to me, I'll go to what ever end in order to make sure I get what I need when I needed... And film "The RED dress" Movie on Dragon and Leica... Beside the 4K results of the Motion Picture I just can't wait of the results in the Extra large Prints that will come out form this combination;)

Martin Schneider
08-03-2013, 10:27 AM
Does that mean they are full frame?

That's a stab in the dark but I guess they mean they RESOLVE 8K - probably within Super 35. 5K/6K as a physical size or in a lens coverage sense is after all unique to RED and these lenses are designed for all PL-Mount Cameras.

Just my 2 cents, though... Exciting times!

Roberto Lequeux
08-03-2013, 11:32 AM
Anyone have a rough/very-rough idea of the number of sets out there? And sets in the LA area?

Phil Holland
08-03-2013, 01:36 PM
What Martin said is correct. They are marketed and designed to resolve up to 8K of detail. However, that concept is a rather subjective one.

Aaron McLane
08-03-2013, 02:16 PM
We've had our set for over a year now and love them. We would be happy to help out on any Dragon test in the Hollywood area that need a set.

Blair S. Paulsen
08-03-2013, 02:28 PM
I do hope the Summicrons are readily available soon. As much as I would love to own the Summilux-C high speed set, I doubt I could secure enough credit facility to acquire them.

IIRC there will be a set of 6 Summicron's (18mm, 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, 75mm, and 100mm) for $95K once they're shipping, still a lot of bank but easier to reach, and quicker to ROI, than $200K for 8 Summilux-Cs. Hoping the 18mm can cover the entire area of the Dragon at 6K...

Cheers - #19

RivaiC
08-03-2013, 02:29 PM
Jim, im wondering if you plan to upgrade RPP lens model to cover RED Dragon as well.

R

Bob Gundu
08-03-2013, 02:34 PM
Highly doubt that. WIth so many companies offering affordable lenses now, no need for RED to enter that arena again.


Jim, im wondering if you plan to upgrade RPP lens model to cover RED Dragon as well.

R

RivaiC
08-03-2013, 02:41 PM
Hi Bob, the question is not about affordable lens. Apart from Master Prime and Leica Summilux C, i "assume" that other type of lens will have problem covering FF35 Dragon. Especially zoom and UP, Super Speed. I thought since RED produces their own lenses as well, they "might" do something so their lens can be compatible with their own Sensor design. But you are most probably right.

R

Bob Gundu
08-03-2013, 02:48 PM
I hear you. That's why the Dragon can do 5.5K to accommodate those lenses. Remember why RED made their own lenses to begin with - to make affordable PL lenses for the masses. RED have already hinted that making lenses is not a priority or a necessity any more. Also, you might what to check out the Digitaloptik Converter (https://vimeo.com/70298333)


Hi Bob, the question is not about affordable lens. Apart from Master Prime and Leica Summilux C, i "assume" that other type of lens will have problem covering FF35 Dragon. Especially zoom and UP, Super Speed. I thought since RED produces their own lenses as well, they "might" do something so their lens can be compatible with their own Sensor design. But you are most probably right.

R

RivaiC
08-03-2013, 02:55 PM
Hi Bob, i notice that as well. it seems great but i sent them email for further questions but no feedback so far. I asked about more lens compatibility, there's no prime lens in the list.

R

David Mullen ASC
08-03-2013, 02:59 PM
Would be annoying if only Leica lenses cover the full Dragon sensor... I hope that isn't true.

RivaiC
08-03-2013, 03:05 PM
Hi David, but this is inevitable right? Dragon sensor size is very close to Vista Vision format. Im sure you know more than me about lenses being made mostly for S35 format. Phil posted about lens and sensor coverage before and i thought most aware of it.

But i do feel a little annoyed as well if Leica and MP being the only one that can cover Dragon sensor.

R

Bob Gundu
08-03-2013, 03:14 PM
Zeiss and I'm sure many more are making FF zooms and lenses.

http://lenses.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/cine_lenses/compact_lenses/compact_zoom.html

http://lenses.zeiss.com/content/photography/camera-lenses/en_de/cine_lenses/compact_lenses/compact_zoom/_jcr_content/stagepar/stage/slide_15e7/stageimage/image.img.jpg/1367591512009.jpg/compact_zoom_01.jpg

Santiago Marti
08-03-2013, 09:32 PM
Compact zooms and primes from Zeiss are the same still lenses but in a better housing. Way overpriced IMHO. Schneider is releasing the Cine Xenons, FF T2.1, made for digital cinema cameras like Dragon in mind. They will be cheap. Let's hope they are good too. They look good though.

Phil Holland
08-03-2013, 09:39 PM
While the Zeiss CP.2 (and Canon CN-E Primes) are essentially rehoused still lenses with different coatings, the Zeiss Compact Zooms are brand spanking new designs and are essentially the first "cinema minded" zooms for VistaVision (FF35) sized sensors. These are alarmingly high quality as well. They are currently working on their wide to accompany this set.

Not a big fan of the CP.2s really and I agree that the Scheider Xenon-FF are likely a better value, but the CZs are really great zooms.

Bob Gundu
08-03-2013, 09:39 PM
I had my doubts about the zooms originating from the stills world, but they reassured me that these were built from the ground up. But zooms and primes are different animals.



Compact zooms and primes from Zeiss are the same still lenses but in a better housing. Way overpriced IMHO. Schneider is releasing the Cine Xenons, FF T2.1, made for digital cinema cameras like Dragon in mind. They will be cheap. Let's hope they are good too. They look good though.

Santiago Marti
08-03-2013, 09:58 PM
Didn't know that about the compact zooms. Thought that being in the same compact family they wouldn't be so good but actually never tried them. I'm really interested in the Xenons though. I'd love to see Schneider releasing more than 3 lenses at first.

Brian Merlen
08-03-2013, 10:04 PM
+1 for the full frame schnieders! very interested in a set of those!

Phil Holland
08-03-2013, 10:16 PM
One of my highlights from NAB 2013 was speaking to the designer of the Compact Zooms for about 45 minutes. They are indeed fresh designs.

Interestingly enough, the very first thing I did once the doors were open was spend about 45 minutes with the Red Motion Mount and learn all I could.

Carlo Rho
08-04-2013, 01:31 AM
About Zooms:
Last year @ IBC '12 I was speaking with southern EU sales rep from Angenieux and he said that the new Optimos 28-340 & 19.5-94 were in fact the "old" Optimos 24-290 & 17-80 with a new back. They were not release them because they were expecting the Dragon's spec to be sure to cover the entire new sensor.
I never saw this lenses out from fairs but you can now order them (with a 12-18 months waiting list) so I believe that they cover the Dragon. We've to wait the IBC and hope that RED borrow an Epic Dragon for the Angenieux booth to check it.
Others interesting zooms are the Canon's CN-E30-300mm T2.95-3.7 L SP & CN-E 14.5-60mm T2.6L SP, we've tested them last year (for Canon) and they're quite nice, well constructed and definitely lighter and cheaper (half size/half price) than Angenieux. Their look is similar to UltraPrime, a bit "without a soul", they're technically good but without a specific feeling that a Leica, a Cooke, a MasterPrime or a Standard Speed could give. The T on the longer 30-300 is almost the same as the 28-340 but Canon declare that you'll loose light at 300 while Angenieux doesn't but you need only a waveform to see that the French guy has the same behavior.
Canon sells them in PL or EOS mount (not interchangeable) covering S35 or APS-C sensors with a 1:1.78 FoV so I believe they could cover the 6K HD (1:1.77) but not the 6K full frame (1:1.9), they for sure deserve a test once Dragons will be released in the wild.

Mehran MK Khan
08-04-2013, 02:24 PM
The features page on the EPIC Dragon page notes that the new sensor window design allows the wider Leica Ms to be used. I really hope this means I get to use my 24mm/35mm Summilux Ms. I'd be crying tears of joy if someone confirmed this.

Les Hillis
08-04-2013, 02:43 PM
The features page on the EPIC Dragon page notes that the new sensor window design allows the wider Leica Ms to be used. I really hope this means I get to use my 24mm/35mm Summilux Ms. I'd be crying tears of joy if someone confirmed this.

Wow, didn't think that was going to happen, but from the RED website...

"Leica-M, Canon, Nikon, and PL lenses are all compatible with EPIC DRAGON cameras. All mounts are easy to swap out and are engineered to fit precisely, without ever having to adjust back focus. A redesigned sensor window allows for the use of wider Leica-M and Angenieux lenses, while also providing a larger field of view when shooting. Every lens is a new perspective and the EPIC DRAGON lets you pick the one that works for you..."

+1 Can anyone confirm the OLPF port on the Dragon camera's has in fact been changed as described above?

Chad Lancaster
08-04-2013, 03:04 PM
wow thats great news, Jarred which wider Leica M lenses will work?

Les Hillis
08-04-2013, 04:16 PM
Chad, with the OLPF port widened to accommodate the wider Dragon sensor window, all M-mount lenses with a protruding rear lens element should fit, unless there are some M-mount lenses whose rear lens elements are too long and sit too deep as well (can't think of any off the top of my head).

People should remember though that getting a lens to mount and getting a decent image from it aren't the same thing. With the rear lens element sitting so close to the sensor, the light coming through the lens hits the edges of the sensor at such an oblique angle that it's difficult for the sensor to 'read' the light correctly. This can result in dimming and colour shifts around the edge of the frame (when going wider than about 35-50mm).

The Leica-M digital still camera's compensated for this to some extent by angling the tiny lenses on the photosites around the edges of the sensor to receive this highly angled light better.

The vignetting and discolouration can also be corrected in post with software, but it's a bit of a multi-step process/hassle and might not always give acceptable results. See here for some 12mm and 21mm M-mount test examples - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYVqug-eEUQ

Hmmmm, just had a thought. Wondering if, with a 4K finish, you could use the wider lenses but crop out the vignetting on the wider 6K (or even 5K) Dragon sensor and still get a wide field of view, or a unique view (ie. 12mm perspective and spatial relationships but with a 35-50mm field of view)...

Nick Morrison
08-04-2013, 09:46 PM
Chad, with the OLPF port widened to accommodate the wider Dragon sensor window, all M-mount lenses with a protruding rear lens element should fit, unless there are some M-mount lenses whose rear lens elements are too long and sit too deep as well (can't think of any off the top of my head).

People should remember though that getting a lens to mount and getting a decent image from it aren't the same thing. With the rear lens element sitting so close to the sensor, the light coming through the lens hits the edges of the sensor at such an oblique angle that it's difficult for the sensor to 'read' the light correctly. This can result in dimming and colour shifts around the edge of the frame (when going wider than about 35-50mm).

The Leica-M digital still camera's compensated for this to some extent by angling the tiny lenses on the photosites around the edges of the sensor to receive this highly angled light better.

The vignetting and discolouration can also be corrected in post with software, but it's a bit of a multi-step process/hassle and might not always give acceptable results. See here for some 12mm and 21mm M-mount test examples - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYVqug-eEUQ

Hmmmm, just had a thought. Wondering if, with a 4K finish, you could use the wider lenses but crop out the vignetting on the wider 6K (or even 5K) Dragon sensor and still get a wide field of view, or a unique view (ie. 12mm perspective and spatial relationships but with a 35-50mm field of view)...

Very interesting Les. I'm fascinated with how good Rangefinder glass could look on Dragon, but have been hearing about the Leica-M issues on the wide angles. I guess we'll have to see. Your idea of windowing in at 4K is interesting. But it may negate the need to go wider. A 24mm prime cropped at 4K may end up giving you the same FOV as a 35mm prime at 6K (except you get the advantage of 6k). I guess on ultrawides like a 21mm cropping in would still make sense. This whole range-finder development bears looking more into...I for one am officially very interested.

Les Hillis
08-04-2013, 10:43 PM
Yeah, will have to wait and see if the windowing would work. Not sure if there are enough numbers around to be able to work it out in theory yet. With your liking of Zeiss lenses, it makes sense that you'd find these developments interesting, as some of the better wide angle M-mount lenses that don't fit the Epic/Scarlet's are actually Zeiss made and branded lenses.

I think though it might be the Angenieux lens guys that end up benefiting most from these changes.

Nick Morrison
08-04-2013, 11:09 PM
Yeah, will have to wait and see if the windowing would work. Not sure if there are enough numbers around to be able to work it out in theory yet. With your liking of Zeiss lenses, it makes sense that you'd find these developments interesting, as some of the better wide angle M-mount lenses that don't fit the Epic/Scarlet's are actually Zeiss made and branded lenses.

I think though it might be the Angenieux lens guys that end up benefiting most from these changes.

Haha. Yeah, I just found out that there's a way to MOD Contax G rangefinder glass to Leica M mount...with MANUAL focus (all be it pretty poor manual focus). Drooling at the thought of how GOOD it could look on DRAGON....

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 02:28 AM
I have to say they we have tested just about every combination of lenses with the Dragon sensor and the Leicas win.

This really should be no surprise.

All the Leicas cover the full sensor and have the most resolution of all lenses tested.

While some lenses will necessitate dropping down to 5.5K to cover... the Leicas don't. The resolution of these lenses are completely matched with the Dragon sensor.

Just sayin'.

Jim


Jim, I hope Phil is wrong here, I really do... If Phil is right I must admit that I am truly disappointed on the Leica's since the Master Primes and Ultra Primes both cover 6k from 18mm on.

http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_leicaSummiluxCPrimess.png

Eric Z
08-05-2013, 02:46 AM
Ketch,
Master Primes actually cover 6K from 25mm on:

http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_zeissMasterPrimes.png

I just LOVE those Master Primes!!

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 03:08 AM
I stand corrected Eric... Still disappointed on the Leica's coverage, but I guess they were design to resolve up to 8k, not meaning that they would cover a sensor specific size up to that resolution.


I think is really time to get some Engineering hat on and complete a design for a Full frame Cine Glass... FAST!!

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 03:11 AM
Correct Ketch. They were designed to resolve 8K within an S35 format. And believe me, those Leicas at 5.5K are going to out resolve certain other lenses at 6K even.

All of which can lead to a clean, high resolving, and vibrant 4K finish.

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 03:16 AM
And that of I have no doubt, and I guess I have to see the vignetting myself, and I will soon enough, as it might be completely usable for me anyways, just that with my first film been pushed so far along, was mainly also do to the awaiting of the Dragon since I'll be printing a crazy amount of 6'+ Prints off of it.

Daniel Grosseman
08-05-2013, 05:53 AM
I thought that Epic Dragon had the same sensor size as the Epic MX but with a higher density of pixels(smaller photo sites). Is it bigger? The only reason that the lenses that covered 5K in MX won't cover 6K in Dragon would be, in my opinion, if the sensor size was expanded, in that case lenses with larger image circles would be a necessary.

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 06:08 AM
I thought that Epic Dragon had the same sensor size as the Epic MX but with a higher density of pixels(smaller photo sites). Is it bigger? The only reason that the lenses that covered 5K in MX won't cover 6K in Dragon would be, in my opinion, if the sensor size was expanded, in that case lenses with larger image circles would be a necessary.

Daniel, Epic Dragon's 6K sensor is larger than Mysterium-X. However, Mysterium-X at 5K is essentially Dragon at 5.5K due to the new smaller pixel design. So higher resolution in that same "format size". 6K gets you a bit more resolution and larger format as well. There are lots of lens options that cover all of these formats in reality.

David Mullen ASC
08-05-2013, 09:05 AM
So what T/2 or T/1.3 cine lens cover 6K below 25mm?

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 09:37 AM
David,

besides the obvious FF Still glass from Canon and Nikon, what would your opinion be in trying to use Medium Still Format glass such as the Leica S series?


Your opinion not on the quality as I know that very well, and they are one of the out most superior Still glass ever made, but much to the actual effect to the Smaller Dragon sensor, that I like your opinion ion it very much.

BTW, even so the Leica S series are a Medium Format Still lenses, then Leica S2 has only a 58mm Diagonal Image Circle to be covered, The Leica S2 Sensor is 30x45, and this lenses were made for it, if that does matter at all.

David Mullen ASC
08-05-2013, 11:42 AM
I'll save my opinion until I try those lenses myself -- my main concern is brand consistency as a renter, not an owner who gets to know his gear forward and backwards. As a renter, to some degree you have to rely on a set of lenses being of known quality worldwide, even though you still test and prep them.

Also, I'm not the one who has to pull-focus on them so the mechanics of these different lenses in terms of focus-pulling or rigging to remote focus devices, etc. is better described by a 1st AC who has to make them work. We've discussed the issues with cine versus still lenses in the past in terms of their mechanics.

Peter Majtan
08-05-2013, 12:06 PM
Ketch,
Master Primes actually cover 6K from 25mm on:

http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_zeissMasterPrimes.png

I just LOVE those Master Primes!!

Coverage is one thing - IQ (image quality) is another. With Dragon we enter world where sensors larger then S35 starts to utilize the edge areas of cine lenses that were never designed to be used in the first place. It is not secret that all lenses lose their IQ as we move further out of the center. The higher quality glass keeps the IQ with minimal (or negligent) falloff all the way to the edge of S35. But you will be surprised how quick the MFT curves dive towards the bottom once you are out of the S35 coverage. So just because the image circle on cinema-designed lenses cover the Dragon, further tests for IQ falloff are needed to really evaluate the use of cine glass for full frame coverage of the Dragon sensor. This is where good quality FF35 still glass will have great advantage optically. Now all we need is to fix the mechanics... ;o)

:sifone: Peter

Nick Morrison
08-05-2013, 12:20 PM
Coverage is one thing - IQ (image quality) is another. With Dragon we enter world where sensors larger then S35 starts to utilize the edge areas of cine lenses that were never designed to be used in the first place. It is not secret that all lenses lose their IQ as we move further out of the center. The higher quality glass keeps the IQ with minimal (or negligent) falloff all the way to the edge of S35. But you will be surprised how quick the MFT curves dive towards the bottom once you are out of the S35 coverage. So just because the image circle on cinema-designed lenses cover the Dragon, further tests for IQ falloff are needed to really evaluate the use of cine glass for full frame coverage of the Dragon sensor. This is where good quality FF35 still glass will have great advantage optically. Now all we need is to fix the mechanics... ;o)

:sifone: Peter

This is why MEDIUM FORMAT glass is also so interesting. I just had a full set of Hasselblads cine-modded by Peter at RP lens, and he reported back they are some the sharpest primes he's ever seen (after doing a quick chart test). Presumably because you're shooting through a tiny fraction of the image circle (the very center of the lens), you are getting OPTIMAL performance with MF glass (no fall off, no vignetting, no distortion, etc).

MF glass can be a little soft WO (if you look at the MTF charts, a 2.8 Hassy often performs like a 1.4 or F2 FULL FRAME prime wide open). But stopped down, they are excellent. Some even rival or surpass Full Frame glass!!! (I'm thinking of the Hassy 50 2.8 and 110 f2 for example)

Looking forward to using these on Dragon!!!

Savva Svet
08-05-2013, 12:44 PM
This is why MEDIUM FORMAT glass is also so interesting. I just had a full set of Hasselblads cine-modded by Peter at RP lens, and he reported back they are some the sharpest primes he's ever seen (after doing a quick chart test). Presumably because you're shooting through a tiny fraction of the image circle (the very center of the lens), you are getting OPTIMAL performance with MF glass (no fall off, no vignetting, no distortion, etc).

MF glass can be a little soft WO (if you look at the MTF charts, a 2.8 Hassy often performs like a 1.4 or F2 FULL FRAME prime wide open). But stopped down, they are excellent. Some even rival or surpass Full Frame glass!!! (I'm thinking of the Hassy 50 2.8 and 110 f2 for example)

Looking forward to using these on Dragon!!!

Nick...always managing to bring up those Zeiss Contax lenses, in some context or another ;)

Nick Morrison
08-05-2013, 12:54 PM
Nick...always managing to bring up those Zeiss Contax lenses, in some context or another ;)

Hasselblads and Contax do have similar renderings yes (similar Zeiss T coating from similar period), but massive image circle on the Hasseblads is very, very interesting on it's own. We shot these portraits Scarlet 4k. Imagine them Dragon 6k?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8345/8239389226_653e39ddf7_c.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8203/8239388668_ca0cfa80a8_c.jpg

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 01:45 PM
Less panic folks. Read my expanded notes on Summilux-C coverage please.

Steven Dean
08-05-2013, 01:46 PM
Nonetheless if RED was to build a RED Leica S2 Mount, I would be the first one on board... ;)


I am with Ketch on this, really hoping for a Leica S mount.

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 01:54 PM
I'll save my opinion until I try those lenses myself -- my main concern is brand consistency as a renter, not an owner who gets to know his gear forward and backwards. As a renter, to some degree you have to rely on a set of lenses being of known quality worldwide, even though you still test and prep them.

Also, I'm not the one who has to pull-focus on them so the mechanics of these different lenses in terms of focus-pulling or rigging to remote focus devices, etc. is better described by a 1st AC who has to make them work. We've discussed the issues with cine versus still lenses in the past in terms of their mechanics.


Yes David, totally agree with there, this is more of a question about the actual coverage of the Medium Format lenses, and specifically the Leica S series which were made for a smaller Medium Format sensor then the Hasselblad Maimya etc.

Mainly was curious of your opinion, and what this lenses would mean in use on theS35 sensor such as the Dragon...


Mechanic aside, as of that we are all well aware of, and for this reason, despite how good the Leica Summilux C. Primes are, to me the Master Primes still rule because of their incredibly well tough out build, and the fact that are about a decade old lenses, yet still king in the rental world of Cinema.

Blair S. Paulsen
08-05-2013, 02:28 PM
I respect your opinion Ketch, and agree that in some respects the Zeiss Master Primes are king. That said, in order to get top performance from the MPs you need a proper lens tech and, when needed, a very expensive re-calibration. I would also point out that gauging popularity in the rental world will be a more meaningful metric once there are more Leica Summilux-C sets in inventory ;-)

Cheers - #19

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 02:42 PM
Absolutely Blair,

that is also because they are an old design, I am most confident that the new Zeiss Master Ana do not have that issue, but also with such an investment in lenses, I would not expect the buyer, or rental company not to be aware of it, and take the best care possible of such an investment.


But I also know that before the Leica truly can get a fair share o f the market, need to bring more focal, yet I trust they will, and as I love their lenses I will most welcome them.

Yet there is a desperate need for new Glass with a larger Image circle now that we have Dragon... ;)

If Zeiss is in the works for a new set of Master Primes, of modern design, and or Mini's will remain to be discovered, but for now I agree with Jim on the fact that the Leica's offer the absolute best image quality.

David Mullen ASC
08-05-2013, 03:37 PM
At least with anamorphic, most lenses are designed to cover the 18mm height of 4-perf 35mm so would cover the height of the Dragon sensor. They don't have to cover the width since you only use a 1.20 : 1 area of the sensor for 2X anamorphic photography to get a 2.40 : 1 image.

Björn Benckert
08-05-2013, 03:43 PM
At least with anamorphic, most lenses are designed to cover the 18mm height of 4-perf 35mm so would cover the height of the Dragon sensor. They don't have to cover the width since you only use a 1.20 : 1 area of the sensor for 2X anamorphic photography to get a 2.40 : 1 image.

True, But I really would love to shoot some banners or such with dragon FF and anamorphic's I know our 50mm hawk-C covers MX FF so I hope it covers also the dragon FF. As those wide strip images, about 32:9 in aspect, looks so darn nice.

check: http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C005_0616YK.50mm%205k.jpg

Christopher Probst
08-05-2013, 09:28 PM
I respect your opinion Ketch, and agree that in some respects the Zeiss Master Primes are king. That said, in order to get top performance from the MPs you need a proper lens tech and, when needed, a very expensive re-calibration. I would also point out that gauging popularity in the rental world will be a more meaningful metric once there are more Leica Summilux-C sets in inventory ;-)

Cheers - #19

You imply here by contrast that the Leicas are easier to service than Master Primes... However, with their compound-aspheric design, I assure you they are NOT!

paul engstrom
08-05-2013, 09:54 PM
You imply here by contrast that the Leicas are easier to service than Master Primes... However, with their compound-aspheric design, I assure you they are NOT!

Copy that. Our tech is telling us quite more difficult/expensive to maintain the Leica Summilux C set than Master Primes. Be warned.

KETCH ROSSi
08-11-2013, 07:06 AM
You imply here by contrast that the Leicas are easier to service than Master Primes... However, with their compound-aspheric design, I assure you they are NOT!


Not my intention at all Christopher, not my intention at all, and I didn't see how I did that, as in fact it is obvious to me the contrary, of course I can now see how not specifying it as not every one that knows Cine lenses of the complexity of the MP's and Leica S.C. Primes, could not understand that.

I ran calibration to my personal set of Master Primes, at every time I traveled, Leica will be just the same, but with added cost as to their newer more complex design, what I wanted ot imply was in fact that any and all Cine Lenses should get cleaned calibrated, maintained properly after each job prior going back to an other.

That is the nature of Pro gear, and lenses are at the very top of the maintenance list.

Christopher Probst
08-12-2013, 11:14 AM
Ketch, How did I say you DID? I quoted Blair in my post... Your post above makes zero sense to me. Did you even READ my post that it was addressed to Blair? Or am I lose my fucking mind here?

Aaron McLane
08-12-2013, 06:01 PM
The biggest danger to all glass is shipping / air travel and dipshit AC's. All glass should be hand carried at all times. As far as bad AC's it would be good to have a list.... specifically who's the genius who let a brand new set of Leica's get completely submerged in a swamp while shooting Pirates 4?

Stirling Bancroft
08-12-2013, 06:13 PM
I don't know the Pirates story but this sounds like a witch hunt. Why not just interview and get references for new AC's you use? I don't think we have much to gain by a list like that and you could be ending someones career on the net. Let incompetent Ac's end their careers on their own.

KETCH ROSSi
08-12-2013, 11:54 PM
Ketch, How did I say you DID? I quoted Blair in my post... Your post above makes zero sense to me. Did you even READ my post that it was addressed to Blair? Or am I lose my fucking mind here?

He he, I indeed tough of it been quoted by you to me, but now reading it again I see that you indeed addressed Blair by quoting what HE wrote in reply to me... ;)

Either way, my answer was in regards that I tough I misled with my previous post, and for that I explained as I replied, could have been addressed to any one really, but sorry for the misunderstanding Christopher.

James_Mills
08-14-2013, 11:26 PM
Will CP2s cover the entire 6k frame?

Phil Holland
08-14-2013, 11:33 PM
Will CP2s cover the entire 6k frame?

All cover except the 18mm, which is in the lens thread stickied atop this Dragon section.

James_Mills
08-14-2013, 11:40 PM
All cover except the 18mm, which is in the lens thread stickied atop this Dragon section.

Thanks, Phil.

Nick Morrison
08-14-2013, 11:53 PM
All cover except the 18mm, which is in the lens thread stickied atop this Dragon section.

Isn't the 18 a full frame design? It's certainly slow enough to be a full frame design. I wonder if the design of the housing is what's vignetting, not the actual optics themselves. My Contax 18 F4 (the older version of the Zeiss 18) is full frame and covers a 5D just fine.

Phil Holland
08-15-2013, 12:43 AM
Isn't the 18 a full frame design? It's certainly slow enough to be a full frame design. I wonder if the design of the housing is what's vignetting, not the actual optics themselves. My Contax 18 F4 (the older version of the Zeiss 18) is full frame and covers a 5D just fine.

Yep. It's something to do with the housing from what I recall. It's been a while since I've tested it, but I know it doesn't cover full 6K.

Ken Robings
08-15-2013, 06:28 PM
Sometimes a wide lens needs those corner cutouts (seen on the front of FF35 lenses), that cine lenses usually don't have, to have FF corners that don't porthole.
Ken Robings
digitaloptik.net

Peter Moretti
08-15-2013, 06:32 PM
Break out the coping saws. :)

Aaron Butonn
08-18-2013, 04:41 PM
I wonder about the ultra prime, anybody know something?

Is 5.5 or 6k?

Matt Ryan
08-18-2013, 06:18 PM
http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_zeissUltraPrimes.png

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103766-Dragon-Lens-Coverage-Information


I wonder about the ultra prime, anybody know something?

Is 5.5 or 6k?

Will Keir
08-18-2013, 06:55 PM
Looks like UP's are getting some new life. Even though they cover 6k, they'll fall off in sharpness toward the edges but by how much? I'd like to see how many lines per millimeter they cover across the whole 6k coverage dimensions.

Kyle Dones
08-19-2013, 09:36 PM
NICE! The last thing I saw on the big screen that blew me away was The Conjuring , shot with Summilux lenses. oh my! what a beautiful look those lenses produce!

Just saw that today. I agree but was it me or did the AC buzz a lot of those shots? (He's obviously talented given his resume however that long take near the beginning, they nailed it.) Sometimes it was hard to form an opinion of the lenses. Also it was shoot on Alexa. Im curious as to how a RED/Leica combo looks.

Asif Limbada
08-19-2013, 11:11 PM
Just saw that today. I agree but was it me or did the AC buzz a lot of those shots? (He's obviously talented given his resume however that long take near the beginning, they nailed it.) Sometimes it was hard to form an opinion of the lenses. Also it was shoot on Alexa. Im curious as to how a RED/Leica combo looks.

we have shot something with RED and Leica Lux-C. Once its out, I will be posting it on REDUSER.

charles lim yi yong
08-28-2013, 10:04 PM
I am a little sad for the Lecia C owners, that their image circle is too small for dragon. But heck , big sensors are the bomb!
The bigger the sensor is more forgiving the camera is to substandard lens optically.

Asif Limbada
08-28-2013, 10:09 PM
I am a little sad for the Lecia C owners, that their image circle is too small for dragon. But heck , big sensors are the bomb!
The bigger the sensor is more forgiving the camera is to substandard lens optically.

Charles, Leica C Image circle covers 6K at 18mm as well. The notes on the coverage done by Phil, says vignette's slightly. Vignetteing and not covering are two different things.

Leica Summilux-C covers 6K. Period.

charles lim yi yong
08-30-2013, 08:51 AM
Charles, Leica C Image circle covers 6K at 18mm as well. The notes on the coverage done by Phil, says vignette's slightly. Vignetteing and not covering are two different things.

Leica Summilux-C covers 6K. Period.

Yes it's not like there is a pot holing situation.
However , I am just using Leica's extremely high standards in this regard.
Anyway good to know these things.

Asif Limbada
08-31-2013, 01:57 AM
Yes it's not like there is a pot holing situation.
However , I am just using Leica's extremely high standards in this regard.
Anyway good to know these things.


considering the size of each lens (being small) and same throughout the focal range (maybe 135mm T1.4 they are developing would be bigger). They cover 34mm Image Circle.

Its is Leica standard.

:smiley:

Ross Isaacs
09-14-2013, 08:36 PM
Does anyone know how the Angenieux Optimo DP Rouge 16-42 mm matched 3D lenses perform with the Dragon sensor?

KETCH ROSSi
09-14-2013, 08:40 PM
Well, I guess this is a good time as any to also let you guys know in this thread that thanks to John Ryan & Ryan Wilmott, we'll have a set of Leica Summilux C Primes on Dragons for "The RED dress, shoot on Monday... ;)

Will Keir
09-14-2013, 08:42 PM
Then you'll be able to answer my over a year long question. Are Summilux C Primes > Master Primes?


Well, I guess this is a good time as any to also let you guys know in this thread that thanks to John Ryan & Ryan Wilmott, we'll have a set of Leica Summilux C Primes on Dragons for "The RED dress, shoot on Monday... ;)

KETCH ROSSi
09-14-2013, 08:54 PM
Sorry Will,

after a super long day, of running around LA to finalize Pre-Production & Casting for the short, I am burned half out, please reframe the question... ;)

Blair S. Paulsen
09-14-2013, 10:01 PM
I would take the Summilux-Cs over the Zeiss Master Primes every time. The Leica's manage to have insane resolution while still having a smooth character.

Perhaps you should ask Ketch again on Wednesday, if he's anything like me the more time you spend with the Leica's, the more you fall in love...

Cheers - #19

KETCH ROSSi
09-14-2013, 10:50 PM
For now, I can say, MP's way better build design, even so over a decade old, Leica choose to go old style conservative on it, not my favorites...


Size, Weight, Resolve power, all Leica's wins.

Phil Holland
09-14-2013, 11:02 PM
I've spent the most time behind Master Primes, Ultra Primes, and Primo glass. However, after several shoots and sort of creepy technical tests with the Leica Summilux-C I'd have to say the LSCs are my favorite primes on the market. Resolving power and coatings are really the thing. And they have some flavor to the image, which I like.

One thing I'll give a tip of the hat to with the Master Primes is that "weightless" feel on the focus movement. I think that's pretty cool. The MPs are also easier to service if that's something that comes into play here.

However, I will say I did purchase my Schneider Cine-Xenar IIIs over the Ultra Primes. So you know. I'm crazy like that. They are alarmingly nice to use and actually have one of my favorite out of focus bokeh looks out there. Also, having the longer lengths 50, 75, 95mm being telecentric they have a really unique feel to the focus pull without breathing. I'd call it if anything "pillowing". Unique.

The Summicron-C Primes will be ones to look out for. Real curious how a full set of those performs. Those against my Cine-Xenars is a fight I both want and don't want to see.

KETCH ROSSi
09-15-2013, 01:04 PM
Yes I have made no mentioning of how smoothly and gentle soft is the Focus on Master Primes, vs. the much stiffer of the Leica's, and I of course don't like it when it is stiff, and that is an other element I have been fighting for in designing of my lenses... Way better IMO to have such "weightless" as you described Phil, in the focus movement, easily handle by even the smallest of Focus Motors.

Again, I also Love the new Leica Summilux C Primes, and that is why I am very happy to have them on set in this few days to shoot my short on Dragon... ;)

Patrick Grossien
09-15-2013, 02:42 PM
I've spent the most time behind Master Primes, Ultra Primes, and Primo glass. However, after several shoots and sort of creepy technical tests with the Leica Summilux-C I'd have to say the LSCs are my favorite primes on the market. Resolving power and coatings are really the thing. And they have some flavor to the image, which I like.

One thing I'll give a tip of the hat to with the Master Primes is that "weightless" feel on the focus movement. I think that's pretty cool. The MPs are also easier to service if that's something that comes into play here.

However, I will say I did purchase my Schneider Cine-Xenar IIIs over the Ultra Primes. So you know. I'm crazy like that. They are alarmingly nice to use and actually have one of my favorite out of focus bokeh looks out there. Also, having the longer lengths 50, 75, 95mm being telecentric they have a really unique feel to the focus pull without breathing. I'd call it if anything "pillowing". Unique.

The Summicron-C Primes will be ones to look out for. Real curious how a full set of those performs. Those against my Cine-Xenars is a fight I both want and don't want to see.

But there still will be a huge price difference, won't there?

What's the Xenars? $45K for the set? And the lowest I heard for the summicron-c set (today again from band pro) was 70K (though I'm not entirely sure if he was referring to € or $ at the moment ... Hehehe )

and also : who knows when they will be available. So six Xenars in hand are worth .... Well you catch my drift :)

Christopher Barrett
09-15-2013, 03:20 PM
70? When I put my name on a set right after NAB, it was more like 100. I certainly wouldn't mind a price drop. I am so going to miss my mini S4's (which also have that "weightless" focusing).

Patrick Grossien
09-16-2013, 04:19 AM
Ok. So from BandPro Germany the price will be 72.200 € which is stated to be fixed for the foreseeable future.

So the $100K is about right. Converted this is $96.400

Sorry about the confusion.

Will Keir
09-16-2013, 09:49 AM
With the smaller size and still good light intake at T1.8, they could be really special. Physically they are smaller, on par with Ultra Primes?

I have my name on the list at Band Pro in anticipation. I'd still consider Ultra primes. They have a full line, they'll be around for years and with the Dragon sensor light intake should be less of a problem. I think the Dragon release will bring up the value of UPs, but I haven't used Ups yet.

I'll have to check out your Cine-Xenars. Was that the set that came late at Duclos for SALT III?

Summicron C's are still a year or so out?



The Summicron-C Primes will be ones to look out for. Real curious how a full set of those performs. Those against my Cine-Xenars is a fight I both want and don't want to see.

Will Keir
09-16-2013, 09:53 AM
Who knows, in a year 72.200 € could be worth 72k USD.


Ok. So from BandPro Germany the price will be 72.200 € which is stated to be fixed for the foreseeable future.

So the $100K is about right. Converted this is $96.400

Sorry about the confusion.

Will Keir
09-16-2013, 09:55 AM
What lens set do you like more:

1) Master Primes

2) Leica Summilux C Primes.


please reframe the question... ;)

Phil Holland
09-16-2013, 09:56 AM
With the smaller size and still good light intake at T1.8, they could be really special. Physically they will be on par with Ultra Primes?

I have my name on the list at Band Pro in anticipation. I'd still consider Ultra primes. They have a full line, they be around for years and with the Dragon sensor light intake should be less of a problem.

Summicron C's are still a year or so out?

The Leica Summicron-C Primes are all T2 (T2-22), a stop slower than the Summilux-C Primes. I hear a few sets will actually be done this year. I have no idea how many, but it's good on Leica to knock them out and deliver them before the year is out. I'm impressed by that turn around actually.

Will Keir
09-16-2013, 09:56 AM
Is the Dragon sensor going to resolve more LP/MM than 80-100?


For now, I can say, MP's way better build design, even so over a decade old, Leica choose to go old style conservative on it, not my favorites...


Size, Weight, Resolve power, all Leica's wins.

Will Keir
09-16-2013, 09:57 AM
Smaller size and weight right?


The Leica Summicron-C Primes are all T2 (T2-22), a stop slower than the Summilux-C Primes. I hear a few sets will actually be done this year. I have no idea how many, but it's good on Leica to knock them out and deliver them before the year is out. I'm impressed by that turn around actually.

Phil Holland
09-16-2013, 10:08 AM
Smaller size and weight right?

Yep. Shorter and lighter.

Christopher Probst
09-16-2013, 11:05 PM
Is the Dragon sensor going to resolve more LP/MM than 80-100?

Even a quick run of the impossible best-case scenario numbers for resolution puts the 6K full sensor capping out at exactly 100lp/mm... Dragon Monochrome for example (since it's not a Bayer pattern CFA), will resolve exactly 100lp/mm..

But the quick answer is NO. But most modern lenses are definitely out performing 100lp/mm, certainly at picture center and many at the corners... So that's good, you don't want to be straining the limits of what the lens can deliver to the sensor... unless that's an effect you are going after.

Robert Ruffo New
09-16-2013, 11:28 PM
You do realize that some of the best cinematography ever created was done on lenses that were not able to resolve 6K - and that the sharpest pictures are not always the prettiest, most effective, nor most engaging right? I'm not saying tech specs don;t matter, Im saying that the most sharpness possible is not always the best choice, and that many other factors in lens selection are as important or more so.

Christopher Probst
09-16-2013, 11:33 PM
Which is why I concluded with the statement, "unless that's an effect you are going for..." Which I often am!

KETCH ROSSi
09-17-2013, 08:08 AM
What lens set do you like more:

1) Master Primes

2) Leica Summilux C Primes.


Master Primes... ;)

Despite the fact that we are using the Leica Summulix C Primes on "The RED dress" short right now, which was mainly a factor of weight as I wanted to use the MōVI, and Master Primes are too heavy for it, as even the Leica's just made it to the edge of usability on it.

And as I said, resolution and power of resolve might be better on Leica's but absolutely everything else, aside the Look do to the Leica's Glass coating process, Master Primes are better in every way as far as build, design, engineering, Focus mechanics and so on, and that is why my own FF+ Cine Lens design is inspired by it.

Patrick Grossien
09-17-2013, 08:59 AM
The Leica Summicron-C Primes are all T2 (T2-22), a stop slower than the Summilux-C Primes. I hear a few sets will actually be done this year. I have no idea how many, but it's good on Leica to knock them out and deliver them before the year is out. I'm impressed by that turn around actually.

From what I understand what I got from the Band Pro booth, is that the Summilux Cs are fully manual labor and the glass is especially difficult to get because of it's high quality. That's why they have so long waiting lists and are more expensive. In argumentum e contrario the summicron Cs have neither the extremely high quality glass nor the full manual labor so these will be coming out a lot faster. Did I note already that if I would have placed an order at IBC they were suggesting a delivery date beginning of next year?!

Patrick Grossien
09-17-2013, 09:02 AM
Who knows, in a year 72.200 € could be worth 72k USD.

That's what I read in between the lines, too - that's why I said "for the foreseeable future" ;)

(well not the exact amount you mentioned, but a possible bigger price drop when the first - and maybe second - run on these is over...)

Ross Isaacs
09-17-2013, 01:45 PM
Does anyone know how the Angenieux Optimo DP Rouge 16-42 mm lenses perform with the Dragon sensor?

KETCH ROSSi
09-23-2013, 09:49 AM
Of course while still loving better the over all design of the Master Primes, shooting the Leica Summilux C Primes again, and this time on Dragon, felt like an incredible experience on set, while on Monitor...


JUST WOW!!

Can not wait to show some Frame Grabs by end of this week.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1270083_362223620574727_1833102218_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1273916_361603833970039_1489152712_o.jpg