120 hz refresh rate HDTV's

[dvpixl]

Just wondering where everyone's thoughts are on this feature in HDTV nowadays.

It supposedly smooths out video so well that it makes movies or anything 24fps look 60fps.

I happen to catch Pirates of the Caribbean playing in this feature- looked like a dramatization film. totally cheapened the feel of the movie.

It looked weird on Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium trailer playing on that set- had the texture of film but was video'd out... it was cheapened in my opinion. Makes me remember how untrue the statement people make when they say film look is all about lighting... after seeing what 120hz does to Pirates. not really.

Got it's set of bad frame conversions and stutters at times too...

If I did insist on a movie-like quality but feels like video look using proper frame rate, would shooting 4K at 60fps do it?

[Brandon Fraley]

i encountered this for the very first time a few days ago at circuit city. The were showing transformers but it looked to be playing at 60fps.

it freaked me out lol. I stood there staring, not sure what i was looking at. When i went home I searched as much as i could about it. I still want to no more, but i got the gist.

It's an impressive technology, considering is creating new filler frames on the fly, and looked suprisingly good and sharp, but of course it ruined the feel. Plus it kept getting choppy every 10 seconds or so which was irritating for my eyes.

interesting stuff though. I'd like to see more, just out of curiousity.

BTW, 60 frame stuff is completely optional. You can play back stuff at the proper frame rate too, which is actually why the 120hz stuff was implemented (native 24p playback, no pulldown)

[Zack Birlew]

I don't know how I feel about the 120hz refresh rate. One one hand, I don't like it, but on the other hand, I think it's neat looking. Interestingly, "Ice Age" was playing on one of these TV's at Fry's Electronics and when I watched it side-by-side with a normal set, it didn't look too bad. Now, what I'd like to see is a complex CGI film like "Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children" playing at 120hz. Really, the biggest reason I would buy one of those 120hz TV's is for the ability to watch movies in 3D. Still, I kind of wonder what regular TV shows look like at 120hz.

Before anyone thinks I'm all for this 120hz movement, let me also express my distaste for what 120hz does to a film like "Pirates of The Carribean". The biggest flaw being that you can actually tell what's CG and what's real instead of having the natural visual coverings of 60hz and 24fps to blend everything together seamlessly. Hopefully, if by chance 120hz becomes the future norm, there will be a way for VFX artists to adjust their work to correspond with a 120hz refresh rate.

[Brent J. Craig]

My theory behind the 120Hz displays is that this is how manufacturers are sneaking 3D-ready TV's into our homes. If they can display 120 pictures per second, they could also display 60 nice clear pictures per second to each eye!

Get ready to re-buy all of your DVDs and BluRays folks!

[Paul Hazlett]

120HZ displays are also a way to get the "must have" crowd to throw away there couple year old plasma for the latest and greates innovation

[Petr Dvorak]

as far as they dont oversharpen sharp pictures its ok

[Lexicon]

I'm gonna hold out til 120hz sets have been around for a bit and the technology improves.

[Noah Kadner]

Just saw a little of Cars on one at Best Buy the other night. At first I thought I was watching some special 60i video made for promos then I realized it was the feature. It looks more 'real' I suppose but the motion characteristics are very distracting imho. It looks less cinematic and much more like 60i or 60p video. Good idea on paper though.

Noah

[Charles Angus]

AFAIK - movie theatres show movies in frame repeated 120hz (each frame flashes five times).

That said, the 120hz TV's I've seen looked super hokey, so they're doing something wrong.

[Adam Glick]

My theory behind the 120Hz displays is that this is how manufacturers are sneaking 3D-ready TV's into our homes. If they can display 120 pictures per second, they could also display 60 nice clear pictures per second to each eye!

Get ready to re-buy all of your DVDs and BluRays folks!

Yup. Agreed.

Virtually all of the really "good" 3D technology now (i.e. RealD) requires 100Hz or 120Hz displays to keep things nice and flicker-free...

My intuition about the next gen. of panel displays and projectors is that you will be able to view your program material at it's native rate...24P, 60i, 120i, whatever. Surely there will also be built-in scan converters and scalers that will let you do whatever you want to your signal...

[Scott M]

If I've understood correctly, the weird look is more an issue of interpolating frames due to "motionflow" technologies/processing vs. the 120hz refresh rate itself.

I personally despise said "look".

[Bruce Allen]

Totally agreed.

I think that with some of them you can turn the stupid motionflow thing off though. EG - just get nice 24p with even 5-frame repeats (without the 3:2). That would rock.

I grew up in a PAL country (where films are shown on video without 3:2 - they just do a 4% speedup to 25p) so yes, the 3:2 judder bugs me. Watching movies at 24p without judder sounds really nice.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Darren Orange]

3D is a major reason for 120hz, Many Samsungs are starting to have built in 3D abilities with glasses and IR controlling them. All with a basic HDMI and a IR sender from the TV this can be done today. Looks great by the way.

[GlennChan]

Hmm I wasn't too impressed with the 3-D stuff showing at NAB in the NHK booth. Yeah it's 3-D... in your home... but it didn't quite have the same feel as seeing 3-D in a darkened theatre.

maybe it's because you can see everything around the TV and there are 3-D cues... or the area around the TV needs to be dark. Or maybe the black levels aren't that great. But something about it just didn't work for me. At home, I'm not sure I'd like to watch 3-D and have spears being thrown at my eyes.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Ok, but I guess there's a little misinformation in this thread.

Isn't 120hz specially made for displaying 24p with no problems?

I think the villain here is the interpolation going to make it look like 60p.

Or maybe I'm a little misinformed, if that's the case, please correct me.

[Daniel Browning]

Isn't 120hz specially made for displaying 24p with no problems?


Yes. 120 is the lowest common denominator of 60 and 24, so unlike 60hz, 72hz, and other rates, it can display both 24p and broadcast with aplomb. It's a must have for home theater.

Unfortunately, 120hz is often marketed with (or as) something else. This other thing is an evil so sinister that merely uttering its name will make a grown DP break down and cry. This vile atrocity marks a turning point in what was once merely a border skirmish. No longer content just to brighten, saturate, and distort our images, the enemy has now escalated to the first known instance of Weapons of Framerate Distruction. Our only citidel is now the theater.

[GlennChan]

I thought the point of 120hz was so that it would be possible to do black frame insertion.

I believe a LCD can be driven at different refresh rates. (As in, the actual panel itself. Some LCD displays always have the panel running at 60hz or whatever and are able to accept different refresh rates on the input; that's not the same thing.)

[Daniel Browning]

I believe a LCD can be driven at different refresh rates. (As in, the actual panel itself. Some LCD displays always have the panel running at 60hz or whatever and are able to accept different refresh rates on the input; that's not the same thing.)

Thanks. You are right; I didn't realize that. The big list of 24p displays (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5155) has a lot of 48hz models and I'm sure they're also capable of switching to 60hz automatically based on input.