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Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 02:18 AM
Hello all,

Mid-July 2013 we set out to discover and learn about how lenses would cover the new Red Dragon sensor. We tested out the most commonly owned, most popular to rent, and most used focal lengths on used on all types of productions.

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redDragon_cineLensCoverageShoot/bigs/phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0000.jpg

Below you can find links to images summarizing the general coverage notes for each set.

Super 35mm Cinema Glass Dragon Coverage:


Red Pro Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_redProPrimes.png)
Leica Summilux-C Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_leicaSummiluxCPrimess.png)
Zeiss Master Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_zeissMasterPrimes.png)
Panavision Primo Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_panavisionPrimoPrimes.png)
Zeiss Ultra Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_zeissUltraPrimes.png)
Schneider Cine-Xenar III Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_schneiderCineXenarIIIPrimes.png)
Cooke S4/i Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_cookeS4iPrimes.png)
Luma Tech Illumina S35 Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_lumaTechIlluminaS35Primes.png)
Zeiss Super Speed MK III Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_zeissSuperSpeedPrimes.png)
Zeiss Standard Speed Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_zeissStandardSpeedPrimes.png)



Expanded notes on the Leica Sumilux-C Primes:

18mm - 6K Wide Open usable w/ vignette until T5.6.
21mm - 6K Wide Open usable w/ vignette until T5.6.
25mm - Uneven corner illumination at 6K wide open.
35mm - 6K usable Wide Open but vignettes
40mm - 6K usable Wide Open but vignettes
50mm - Covers 6K, vignettes when iris at T22 and focused past 9 feet.
75mm - Covers all Epic Dragon Formats
100mm - Covers all Epic Dragon Formats

What can be discerned from this? In one way or another they are usable wide open until about T4 on Dragon at 6K and 6K WS. However, the initial graphics involve "clean coverage". This is why Jim is right and the numbers are right. It is a very noticeable vignette roll off however. T1.4-T2.8 and up until T4 you may find success and lovely images.



Leica Summicron-C Primes
All lenses cover Dragon 6K FF cleanly.



Cooke 5/i Primes
18mm - 6K, 2:1, WS uneven field illumination and vignette. 6K HD covers.
25mm - 6K, 2:1, WS uneven field illumination and vignette. 6K HD covers.
32mm - 6K FF covers
40mm - 6K FF covers
50mm - 6K FF covers
65mm - 6K FF covers
75mm - 6K FF covers
100mm - 6K FF covers


Cooke Mini S4i

18mm - Covers 6k 2:1 / HD / 2.4:1 - 6k FF OK above F4 - a small hard vignette at the corner below f5.6 @ MOD, f8 @ infinity
25mm - Covers 6k 2:1 / HD / 2.4:1 - 6k FF OK above F5.6 - a tiny hard vignette at the very corner below f8, only @ infinity
32mm - Covers 6k FF
50mm - Covers 6k FF
75mm - Covers 6k FF
100mm - Covers 6k FF


Dedicated Full Frame 35mm coverage lenses:


Zeiss CP.2 Primes - All lenses cover Dragon 6K, except for the 18mm. That does cover 5.5K however.
Zeiss CP.2 Super speed Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.
Schneider Xenon-FF Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.
Canon CN-E Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.
Leica M Primes - All Cover Dragon. Optically speaking Summilux-M 24mm and longer look great!




Zoom Lens Coverage!

** UVI stands for Uneven Vignette Illumination. The "highlight glow" that sometimes contaminates the expected roll-off to darkness a Vignette produces. Sometimes extremely noticeable on zoom pulls and iris pulls.

** Worsening Vignette is described as an inconsistent Vignette during a zoom pull.

------------------------------------------------

Red Pro Zoom 18-85mm T2.9
@32mm 6K FF vignette, clear at 40mm
@25mm covers 6K WS
@22mm covers 6K HD

------------------------------------------------

Canon CN-E 14.5-60mm T2.6
@14.5 - covers 5K clean, hard vignette porthole at higher resolutions
@35 - covers 6K FF with UVI
@60 - clean

------------------------------------------------

Canon CN-E 15.5-47 T2.8
@15.5 - 6K HD covers with vignette
** be cautious of UVI during zoom pull and stopped down
@30 - Covers 6K FF with soft vignette

------------------------------------------------

Canon CN-E 30-105 T2.8
@30 - Covers 6K HD nicely. 6K FF wide open pretty good, stopped down port hole
@75 - Covers 6K cleanly

------------------------------------------------

Canon 30-300mm T2.95-3.7
@30 - Portholes 6K - 5.5K WS soft vignette
@85 - vignettes, but covers 6K FF
@300 - Clean 6K FF

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo 19.5-94mm T2.6
@19.5 - Portholes at 6K FF, 6K WS slightly but covers 6K HD with vignette
@30 - soft vignette at 6K FF
@94 - Clean 6K FF

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo DP 16-42mm T2.8
@16 - 6K FF Porthole, 6K HD w/ soft vignette
@19 - 6K FF covers w/ slight vignette
** really doesn't work with the Motion Mount!

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo DP 30-80mm T2.8
@30 - 6K FF Porthole, 6K HD covers with slight vignette
@65 - vignette 6K FF worsens
** be cautious of ring type UVIs
** really doesn't work with the Motion Mount!

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo 15-40mm T2.6
@16 - porthole 6K FF and 6K WS, 6K HD vignettes. Better use at 5.5K
18 - 6K FF covers with vignette.
** exhibits similar vignette worsening as DPs

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo 28-76 T2.6
@28 - 6K WS covers cleaning, porthole at 6K FF
@32 - 6K FF covers
** exhibits similar vignette worsening as DPs

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux 45-120mm T2.8
- Covers 6K HD

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo 24-290 T2.8
@24 - No way sees front mask
@75 - Covers 6K FF.

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux Optimo 28-340mm T2.9
- Covers 6K HD

------------------------------------------------

Arri Fujinon Alura 15.5-45mm T2.8.
@15.5 - 6K WS covers with vignette and potential coloful UVI
@18 - 6K FF covers with soft vignette
*** - Be careful of iris pulls, UVI

------------------------------------------------

Arri Fujinon Alura 30-80 T2.8
@30 - Covers 6K FF w/ vignette

------------------------------------------------

Arri Fujinon Alura 18-80mm T2.6
@18 - Portholes 6K FF, covers 5.5K WS
@40 - 6K FF covers

------------------------------------------------

Fujinon Cabrio 19-90mm T2.9
@19 - 6K FF vignettes, portholes as iris closes, which eventually encroaches on 6K WS coverage, 6K HD works fine
@70 - covers 6K FF nicely

------------------------------------------------

Canon 17-120mm T2.95

6K Full Frame - Hard corner clip @17mm. By 40mm, soft vignette and usable
6K 2:1 - Practically same as above
6K Widescreen - Soft vignette @17mm, ok by 20mm
6K HD - Covers well, very minor light falloff (expected) at 17mm
Anything less than the 6K HD frame size on the Dragon and you're all good.

(Notes courtesy Matt Duclos)

------------------------------------------------

Angenieux 25-250 HR T3.5
Covers 5K :)

------------------------------------------------

Zeiss CZ 70-200mm T2.9
Zeiss CZ 28-80mm T2.9
Zeiss CZ 15-30mm T2.9
- Covers 6K FF

------------------------------------------------

Focus Optics RUBY 14-24mm T2.8
- Covers 6K FF



As more focal lengths, sets, and zooms are tested we will add to this list and update the graphics.

This is the "simple" version of these tests and I have taken additional notes. If you have any questions regarding coverage and performance post them here and I'll do my best to answer your questions.

Some of the basic notes on coverage that everybody should keep in mind:


Any lens designed for Full Frame 35mm or VistaVision formats cover Dragon at 6K
If you have a lens that covers Mysterium-X at 5K today you will cover Dragon at 5.5K safely
All lenses designed for Super 35mm will cover Dragon at 5K




Crop Factors and Format FOV Calculations:

Okay. So we have to keep in mind relative crop factor here. Meaning if FF35 is your starting point that's 1X, and if S35 is your starting point that's 1X. Here's the info for both with the aspect ratio of Dragon's sensor taken into account:

For people who visualize FF35 as their starting point......

Epic Dragon Crop Factors FF35 Relative to Full Frame 35mm:
6K Full = 1.17x
5.5K = 1.28x
5K = 1.40x
4.5K = 1.56
4K = 1.75x
3.5K = 2x
3K = 2.33x
2.5K = 2.8x
2K = 3.50x


and for S35 as a base.....

Epic Dragon Crop Factors S35 Relative to Super 35mm 3-Perf 26mm diagonal (Dragon 5K):
6K Full = 0.81x
5.5K = 0.88x
5K = 0.97x
4.5K = 1.08
4K = 1.21x
3.5K = 1.39x
3K = 1.61x
2.5K = 1.94x
2K = 2.42x


Feel free to share and use this information for whatever you'd like.

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 02:20 AM
Nicely done Phil, thanks buddy, even so I already know what are the only lenses I am interested in using... ;)

But very surprised that the Leica Summilux Cine Primes don't cover all formats @6K from the wide end, and Master Primes, and even UP's much much older glass do (well form 18mm up any ways)... Very Surprised!!


Some got the info wrong here, I really hope is you Phil... ;)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103664-Dragon-and-Leica-lenses

luigivaltulini
08-05-2013, 02:22 AM
Nice Phil, thanksssssss

Rob Anderson
08-05-2013, 02:42 AM
There's my prescription. Thank you Doctor.

Beautiful work Phil.

Filip Orlandic
08-05-2013, 02:45 AM
Thanks!

Kwan Khan
08-05-2013, 02:48 AM
Thanks

Nook Kim
08-05-2013, 03:01 AM
Thanks for sharing. It is surprising to see the Leicas' limited coverage after Jim's "Dragon and Leica" thread.

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 03:07 AM
Okay. I'm going to add some additional thoughts here. Some things that we've known for some time regarding lenses really.

Most cinema lenses have been designed with the S35 specification in mind. This is important to acknowledge as there is performance fall off often beyond that spec. However, it's not exactly that simple. Typically speaking if you are focused around 3 feet (1 meter) away and beyond you are already in the "sweet spot" in terms of optimal resolving power of a lens. Where a good deal of these lenses start to exhibit strange performance is at the closest focus distance. Specifically in the corners (or simply the outer field). Some lenses behave better than others in this regard as variations on design, element type, element size, and transport come into play.

The basic concept is that generally speaking lenses perform better in "field" coverage as you begin to focus more and more towards infinity. Infinity often represents the largest possible projected image circle in a prime lens design. However, there's a sweet spot in there between close focus and infinity where a lens typical performs "best".


Okay onto some crazier lens theory and how it reflects towards production.

Red Dragon at 5K creates essentially a 3-perf S35 frame. This is actually providing something that many folks have wanted for some time. A way to get 5K into a S35 image circle. This is attributed primarily to the new smaller pixel design of Dragon. Lens character and feel often comes with this sweet spot because that's the format the lens was designed for. However, you may choose to favor say a wider FOV, larger format size, and higher resolution when shooting. That's where 6K comes in.

Between down sampling, cropping, and re-framing you get a lot of freedom during capture and in post.

6K is going to provide that larger format feel, high resolution, and general "wonderment". However, there's no reason not to shoot in 5.5K, 5K, or even 4K with Dragon.

With Dragon it's sort of less about resolution and more about format. Why? Because you can create a brilliant and lovely 4K finish from any of those formats listed above.

And perceptually speaking you are getting more resolution not only across the whole sensor coverage, but also more resolution in the sweet spot of all modern lenses. Basically what I'm saying, coverage or not at 6K, Dragon makes all of your lenses perform better if you think of it in the whole sense.

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 03:14 AM
Yeah Phil I hear you buddy, but for me Dragon is to shoot 6K all the way, I have been waiting for it, and for PRINT work is the only way to miss less and less Medium Format cameras, I am just sincerely disappointed that Leica Summilux C. Primes don't cover the full sensor in al formats as Jim mentioned, obviously I miss understood something in his message, any ways, I understand perfectly all perforation formats of the 35mm medium in cinema world, and the design of Leica's Cine primes is obviously to that end, just that I surely hoped they would have covered the 6K DRAGON sensor entirely even at the widest Focal (not out yet).


I guess I know what else I'll be doing when back in LA... Lens Lab and get those FF Cine Primes developed once and for all... ;)

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 03:20 AM
I guess I know what else I'll be doing when back in LA... Lens Lab and get those FF Cine Primes developed once and for all... ;)

Heh. There was a time when I spent "some coin" researching and developing a series of lenses. At some point that became me trying to drain the ocean with a spoon. Just didn't work out.

Don't give up on those Leicas. They are going to produce some of the best material on Dragon.

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 03:58 AM
Not giving Up Phil, but I still remain disappointed by the coverage, and with the new Wides coming abut will likely get worst... So I'll be hard at work to bring those FF Cine Lenses to reality once and for all, while still very curious to see the possibility of a RED Leica S mount, and see how those Leica S series Medium Format lenses perform on Dragon... ;)

Mark Toia
08-05-2013, 04:32 AM
Hello all,

Mid-July 2013 we set out to discover and learn about how lenses would cover the new Red Dragon sensor. We tested out the most commonly owned, most popular to rent, and most used focal lengths on used on all types of productions.


Below you can find links to images summarizing the general coverage notes for each set:

Red Pro Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_redProPrimes.png)
Leica Summilux-C Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_leicaSummiluxCPrimess.png)
Zeiss Master Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_zeissMasterPrimes.png)
Panavision Primo Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_panavisionPrimoPrimes.png)
Zeiss Ultra Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_zeissUltraPrimes.png)
Schneider Cine-Xenar III Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_schneiderCineXenarIIIPrimes.png)
Cooke S4/i Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_cookeS4iPrimes.png)
Luma Tech Illumina S35 Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_lumaTechIlluminaS35Primes.png)
Zeiss Super Speed MK III Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_zeissSuperSpeedPrimes.png)
Zeiss Standard Speed Primes (http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/red/redDragonLensCoverage/redDragonCoverage_zeissStandardSpeedPrimes.png)

As more focal lengths, sets, and zooms are tested we will add to this list and update the graphics.

This is the "simple" version of these tests and I have taken additional notes. If you have any questions regarding coverage and performance post them here and I'll do my best to answer your questions.

Some of the basic notes on coverage that everybody should keep in mind:

Any lens designed for Full Frame 35mm or VistaVision formats cover Dragon at 6K
If you have a lens that covers Mysterium-X at 5K today you will cover Dragon at 5.5K safely
All lenses designed for Super 35mm will cover Dragon at 5K


Feel free to share and use this information for whatever you'd like.

Great work mate.

Mark Toia
08-05-2013, 04:34 AM
Not giving Up Phil, but I still remain disappointed by the coverage, and with the new Wides coming abut will likely get worst... So I'll be hard at work to bring those FF Cine Lenses to reality once and for all, while still very curious to see the possibility of a RED Leica S mount, and see how those Leica S series Medium Format lenses perform on Dragon... ;)

I gave up on 18mm lenses long ago Ketch, never liked the lens distortion on any of them... 25mm on the 6k looks like a 21mm now. thats my new wide. :)

David Battistella
08-05-2013, 04:35 AM
Phil,

Thanks so much for this.

Great stuff.

An instant sticky really!

David

Mark Toia
08-05-2013, 04:40 AM
Yeah Phil I hear you buddy, but for me Dragon is to shoot 6K all the way,)

Hence why I opted for the Canon glass for the test. So i had 6k all the way .
Not my favorite choice of lens for obvious reasons , but they work well optically.

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 05:07 AM
Heh. There was a time when I spent "some coin" researching and developing a series of lenses. At some point that became me trying to drain the ocean with a spoon. Just didn't work out.

Don't give up on those Leicas. They are going to produce some of the best material on Dragon.


Hence why I opted for the Canon glass for the test. So i had 6k all the way .
Not my favorite choice of lens for obvious reasons , but they work well optically.


And this is now the perfect time to bring to life my long time idle FF Cine Lens project...: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103768-NEW-FF-Cine-Lenses-For-DRAGON-In-the-works&p=1238615#post1238615


Phil... Do you want in? No more "coin" at your end to spend buddy... ;)

Humberto Rivera
08-05-2013, 05:24 AM
Phil, might I make a SUGGESTION, what would-the-lens-look like at 6000 X 3000, would they vignette at the same place or would you get a lot more coverage than a 5.5 K frame! Just a question? It would be nice to test the “Leica Summilux-C Primes” and the “Zeiss Master Primes”! Or maybe that’s a job for the Red Camera company since they did say there is full 6K coverage in both lenses!

Humberto Rivera

Eric Z
08-05-2013, 05:31 AM
Now here's a killer-combo:
http://s15.postimg.org/ybcwcvayj/RED_Dragon_MASTER_PRIME_100mm.jpg

Drool, drool, drool :drool:

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 05:45 AM
Hmm. Somebody went sniffing and attempting to correct my color work no less. Let me give you the actual photo:

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redDragon_cineLensCoverageShoot/bigs/phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0006.jpg

And a few beauty shots of other lenses in action.

Here's a nice lens too :) Leica Summilux-C 21mm
http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redDragon_cineLensCoverageShoot/bigs/phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0004.jpg

And this one is pin sharp wide open. Panavision Primo 40mm T1.9
http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redDragon_cineLensCoverageShoot/bigs/phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0012.jpg

The 50mm T1.9 Red Pro Prime looks great on Dragon:
http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redDragon_cineLensCoverageShoot/bigs/phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0002.jpg

I'm pretty partial to my set of Schneider Cine-Xenars too:
http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redDragon_cineLensCoverageShoot/bigs/phfx_redDragonJuly2013LensCoverage_0008.jpg

Brian Merlen
08-05-2013, 05:51 AM
Can we get a list of the cheap lenses that do cover going?

CP2s?

CP2 super speeds?

Xenon Full Frames?

Canon Cine?

and do all the focal lengths cover for all the above options?

There are options out there that should cover that aren't all DSLR glass (and all the mechanical issues associated with their usage)... I am just getting ready to invest in glass after my Epic and Dragon upgrades and I'd like to verify for those looking to purchase full frame entry level cinema glass what our best options are... Thanks

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 05:53 AM
I gave up on 18mm lenses long ago Ketch, never liked the lens distortion on any of them... 25mm on the 6k looks like a 21mm now. thats my new wide. :)

Same thoughts over here too.

I think another thing to consider is going to be people working for a 16x9 delivery for UHD screens too. That 6K HD and near 5.5K resolution is going to be a very commonly used format, especially for broadcast.



Great work mate.

Cheers and beer for you sir!

Eric Z
08-05-2013, 05:56 AM
Hmm. Somebody went sniffing and attempting to correct my color work no less.

Sorry, Phil...just couldn't resist posting it here. I'll take it off my post if you want.

Thank you for all hard work and sharing the results with us all.

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 06:00 AM
Can we get a list of the cheap lenses that do cover going?

CP2s?

CP2 super speeds?

Xenon Full Frames?

Canon Cine?

and do all the focal lengths cover for all the above options?

There are options out there that should cover that aren't all DSLR glass (and all the mechanical issues associated with their usage)... I am just getting ready to invest in glass after my Epic and Dragon upgrades and I'd like to verify for those looking to purchase full frame entry level cinema glass what our best options are... Thanks

Absolutely. Those I can actually pretty much drop the info on now as I've tested them not on Dragon, but elsewhere.

Zeiss CP.2 Primes - All lenses cover Dragon 6K, except for the 18mm. That does cover 5.5K however.
Zeiss CP.2 Super speed Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.
Schneider Xenon-FF Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.
Canon CN-E Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.

I'll add that to the top.

Eric Z
08-05-2013, 06:02 AM
Phil, do you happen to have the Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II USM?
From what I've seen, it's super-sharp all around.
I wonder what would come-out when combining this baby with the EPIC Dragon...

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 06:04 AM
The 300mm f/2.8L IS II certainly covers. I'm actually rather impressed by the 400mm f/2.8L IS II. The new stabilization on that thing is wonderful.

However, I have to say for cinema use the 300mm T2.9 Red Pro Prime might be the deal of a lifetime really.

Brian Merlen
08-05-2013, 06:17 AM
What about the CP2 15mm?

Oh and as a broke guy I am really kind of stoked that all these cheap lenses will cover! Cuz the reality is to even move away from DSLR glass I'd be moving right into the entry level Cine glass market, so to have so many inexpensive options is really kind of neat! Cuz they are all soo cheap that for a set of expensive lenses one can afford to own ALL the sets of entry level FF cine glass!


Absolutely. Those I can actually pretty much drop the info on now as I've tested them not on Dragon, but elsewhere.

Zeiss CP.2 Primes - All lenses cover Dragon 6K, except for the 18mm. That does cover 5.5K however.
Zeiss CP.2 Super speed Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.
Schneider Xenon-FF Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.
Canon CN-E Primes - Covers all Epic Dragon formats.

I'll add that to the top.

Eric Z
08-05-2013, 06:22 AM
Comparing the Canon 300mm and 400mm (both L f/2.8 IS II USM) on this site, (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=741&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=739&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=3) it looks like the 300mm is just a tad sharper, especially in the corners (throughout the aperture range).
Hover your mouse on and off the test charts to see the difference. You can select to add a 1.4x or 2x extender on these lenses.
I don't have any experience with the RPP 300mm, so can't compare really. The price is definitely attractive ($5950).

Jeff Kilgroe
08-05-2013, 07:08 AM
What about the CP2 15mm?

It will cover. The only CP.2 that has FF35 coverage issues is the 18. IMO, now that the 15 is available and since there are a number of great lenses in the set, I don't see why anyone would ever buy the 18mm. The 18mm CP is a complete turd and a huge blemish on what is mostly a rather good set of lenses. Oh, and get the 50mm T2 macro instead of the faster 50mm prime. The T2 macro version is miles ahead as an all-around better lens, the other is just "meh..."

Sebastian Moretto
08-05-2013, 07:38 AM
Thanks for testing, Phil! Most helpful!

Savva Svet
08-05-2013, 08:02 AM
I'm assuming the Leica 19mm f/2.8 Elmarit-R will cover 6k?

Nick Morrison
08-05-2013, 08:19 AM
It goes w/out saying that all CONTAX lenses will cover Dragon 6K, as they are all FULL-FRAME.

Enjoy.

Savva Svet
08-05-2013, 08:22 AM
It goes w/out saying that all CONTAX lenses will cover Dragon 6K, as they are all FULL-FRAME.

Enjoy.

Greatest lens investment ever?! haha

David Battistella
08-05-2013, 08:31 AM
Phil,

Are you going to cover stills glass here as well ? (as it is a DSMC system)

I'm pretty sure all my old FF Nikon and Leica R glass will cover 6k. Canon too.

or are you just testing cinema specific glass?

David

Nick Morrison
08-05-2013, 08:35 AM
Greatest lens investment ever?! haha

Haha. Yeah...I won't argue with that!

David Battistella
08-05-2013, 08:40 AM
I might, :), :X



david



Haha. Yeah...I won't argue with that!

Nick Morrison
08-05-2013, 08:52 AM
Hey guys for wides, don't forget the Tokina/Duclos 11-16 covers FULL FRAME at 16mm, so that's another great WIDE option for Dragon 6k. It may even cover Dragon further down the zoom range...at 14mm or 13mm...someone would need to check.

Will Keir
08-05-2013, 08:55 AM
Thanks Phil.

Are Zoom lenses being added or do we have to make a test for them specifically?

Will Keir
08-05-2013, 08:56 AM
We should get a stick for this thread under in the Lens section as well.

Michael Patterson
08-05-2013, 09:36 AM
Here's a quick question for people like me opting for the scarlet dragon route. Does anyone know how much the field of view will change going from 4k mx to 5k dragon? I know it won't be as wide as 5k mx right now, but will it be a bit wider, like 4.x k?

roryhinds
08-05-2013, 09:59 AM
this is super helpful, thanks so much.

Matthew Riggieri
08-05-2013, 10:07 AM
Did you test any zooms? Interested in the Optimo DP series and other Optimo setup.

Brian Merlen
08-05-2013, 10:14 AM
It will cover. The only CP.2 that has FF35 coverage issues is the 18. IMO, now that the 15 is available and since there are a number of great lenses in the set, I don't see why anyone would ever buy the 18mm. The 18mm CP is a complete turd and a huge blemish on what is mostly a rather good set of lenses. Oh, and get the 50mm T2 macro instead of the faster 50mm prime. The T2 macro version is miles ahead as an all-around better lens, the other is just "meh..."

Part of me really wants the CP2s, part of me wants the Schnieder Full Frames... CP2's seem like a nice safe investment due to the easy mount changes, so that really appeals to me despite the non matched set...

On another tangent how is the .95 Leica Noctilux on the dragon? has anyone gave it a go?

Does it cover 6k? That lens is my white whale, and part of me wants to forgo a complete set and go straight for it... different fields of view be damned! LOL

Savva Svet
08-05-2013, 10:20 AM
By the way, how do Anamorphic lenses work on the Dragon? Does it have an anamorphic mode?

Humberto Rivera
08-05-2013, 10:20 AM
Phil, might I make a SUGGESTION, what would-the-lens-look like at 6000 X 3000, would they vignette at the same place or would you get a lot more coverage than a 5.5 K frame! Just a question? It would be nice to test the “Leica Summilux-C Primes” and the “Zeiss Master Primes”! Or maybe that’s a job for the Red Camera company since they did say there is full 6K coverage in both lenses!

Humberto Rivera

I guess I just answered my own question, if the 25 mm “ZEISS MASTER PRIME” has an Image Circle of 35 Ř mm, and the Red 6K Dragon Epic has an Image Circle of 34.5 Ř mm! So then it stands to reason that a 6000 X 3000 image at 2:1 has an Image Circle of 33.52 Ř mm. So then the 16 mm “ZEISS MASTER PRIME” which has an Image Circle of 34 Ř mm will fit well within the 33.52 Ř mm (image circle) of the 6000 (Horizontal) X 3000 (Vertical) which is also 29.98 (Horizontal) x 14.99 (Vertical). I’m I right?

Humberto Rivera

Jeff Kilgroe
08-05-2013, 10:23 AM
Hey guys for wides, don't forget the Tokina/Duclos 11-16 covers FULL FRAME at 16mm, so that's another great WIDE option for Dragon 6k. It may even cover Dragon further down the zoom range...at 14mm or 13mm...someone would need to check.

Erm... You must have a magic 11-16 because the ones I have don't cover FF35 at 16mm. Close, but just not all the way there... Not that it matters, Dragon6K requires coverage on par with Canon APS-H format, not FF35. At the wide end, 11mm starts to show noticeable portholing on MX 5K. Anyway, I fully expect this little powerhouse zoom to cover Dragon 6KFF from about 13mm and onward, possibly even at a bit over 12mm... At 5.5K on Dragon, coverage should be the same as on MX 5K. Anyway, I still love the Tokina 11-16, especially my Duclos cine-modded one.

Wait a minute... Is there a coverage difference between the "old" 11-16 and the new vII revision?

Brian Merlen
08-05-2013, 10:30 AM
I guess I just answered my own question, if the 25 mm “ZEISS MASTER PRIME” has an Image Circle of 35 Ř mm, and the Red 6K Dragon Epic has an Image Circle of 34.5 Ř mm! So then it stands to reason that a 6000 X 3000 image at 2:1 has an Image Circle of 33.52 Ř mm. So then the 16 mm “ZEISS MASTER PRIME” which has an Image Circle of 34 Ř mm will fit well within the 33.52 Ř mm (image circle) of the 6000 (Horizontal) X 3000 (Vertical) which is also 29.98 (Horizontal) x 14.99 (Vertical). I’m I right?

Humberto Rivera


But the key thing to remember when doing relative size comparison is "what was the intended usage size of the lens set". Because intended usage parts of the glass may differ from the quality of the corners that were never intended to be utilized... So that is the whole thing to consider when using S35 sized glass... Thats why ideally people will throw glass up and take screen shots on all these glass sets being listed here so that one can see the vignettes and fields of view. at least i hope one day someone shoots and posts something like that...

I think that makes for an interesting test. Like all the aspect ratios shot on all the cine lenses screen shotted as a quick DP reference guide... I can try to convince the rental house I am with to put something together perhaps...It'd make for an interesting show and tell if one had a guide like that at all aspect ratios.. On ideally both Epic MX and Dragon...

I'll try to get the ball rolling if I can as far as Epic goes...

Jeff Kilgroe
08-05-2013, 10:31 AM
Part of me really wants the CP2s, part of me wants the Schnieder Full Frames... CP2's seem like a nice safe investment due to the easy mount changes, so that really appeals to me despite the non matched set...

Be careful with assumptions on "easy mount changes". It's not something you do in the field if you need to move from PL to Canon mount, per se. It should be done in a clean environment and followed with a check on a collimation bench. We're strictly in the realm of rental house operations here and not something that should appeal to end users or indie operators. The Schneider Xenon FF primes also offer the same mount exchange ability.

Speaking of the Xenon FF primes, they look very promising and I have been rather pleased with what I have seen of them so far. I have a set on order and I'm expecting them around the time I should be Dragonizing my EPIC-M. :) Like within the next 4 weeks or so.

Anyone who's ever read my lens comments will know I'm not a fan of the CP.x lenses. Maybe I'm just less of a fan of the Zeiss marketing on these. The mismatched set combined with a dud lens (18mm) has always been a turn-off. Yes, I've used them on several occasions, still not impressed. I find it odd that when Zeiss "fine-tuned" the set and released the CP.2's (vs. the original "Compact Primes"), they crippled the aperture performance on the 35, 50 and 85. Only to re-release the lenses again within the past year as "super speed" versions that had their original aperture operation restored. WTF?

Anyway, enough on that. Some people really like these lenses and they're still not a bad option at that price since they have a decent selection of focal lengths -- something that most "low cost" sets of cine primes don't offer. For now, my money is on the Schneider FF's though. We'll see what happens -- it's going to take them a while to build out a complete offering with several focal lengths.

Matt Ryan
08-05-2013, 10:34 AM
No Cooke 5i's in the test?

Humberto Rivera
08-05-2013, 10:44 AM
THIS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE ARRI BROCHURE; “This unique combination of features allows for fresh angles and focus pulls that would have previously been impossible, creating new ways to block a scene and new image sequences for cinematographers to explore. All these advances, combined with the improved T* XP anti-reflex coating, strategically painted lens rims and special light traps, result in lenses with UNSURPASSED RESOLUTION, HIGH CONTRAST AND LOW VEILING GLARE. Even in the darkest corner at night the MASTER PRIMES can capture details other lenses simply cannot see.” Just saying, they were talking about the “Master Primes”!

Humberto Rivera

Matt Ryan
08-05-2013, 10:53 AM
Phil, are you sure you didn't accidentally mix the Leica's with the Master Primes? Jarred has said the Leica's cover fully down to the 16mm which just slightly vignettes at 6K with the rest fully covering.

Andreas Mendritzki
08-05-2013, 10:53 AM
Would love to have a confirmed report on the cooke miniS4 as well! The data puts them around the same ballpark as the Schnieders I think, but it would be great to hear from some hands-on tests!

Nick Morrison
08-05-2013, 11:13 AM
Erm... You must have a magic 11-16 because the ones I have don't cover FF35 at 16mm. Close, but just not all the way there... Not that it matters, Dragon6K requires coverage on par with Canon APS-H format, not FF35. At the wide end, 11mm starts to show noticeable portholing on MX 5K. Anyway, I fully expect this little powerhouse zoom to cover Dragon 6KFF from about 13mm and onward, possibly even at a bit over 12mm... At 5.5K on Dragon, coverage should be the same as on MX 5K. Anyway, I still love the Tokina 11-16, especially my Duclos cine-modded one.

Wait a minute... Is there a coverage difference between the "old" 11-16 and the new vII revision?

Jeff, I don't think the vII has any coverage differences vs the vI.

Are you sure about the Tokina not covering 16mm at Full Frame? Maybe it vignettes and we haven't noticed? If you look at this piece here, the opening "wide" shot is the 11-16 on a 5D, whereas the rest of the piece is Red One MX with Ultraprimes.

Either way. Point still stands. This "little powerhouse" as you call it (I like that!), should be TERRIFIC on Dragon.


https://vimeo.com/34571919

David Kudell
08-05-2013, 11:24 AM
Great to see the Ultra Primes covering 6K (except the 16mm at 5.5K). Would also love to hear how the Optimo DP Zooms cover on Dragon.

Aaron McLane
08-05-2013, 11:28 AM
My Superspeed Mk3's don't cover my Epic's at 5kWS. I wonder what version of Leica's you had, the first 50 sets were version 1.

Tom Van
08-05-2013, 11:35 AM
Thanks Phil, a sticky-worthy post as usual. I'm curious about how anamorphic lenses play with Dragon.

Vincent Follézou
08-05-2013, 11:42 AM
Wait a minute... Is there a coverage difference between the "old" 11-16 and the new vII revision?


To eliminate any vignetting you have to use it without filter

http://www.flickr.com/photos/supermariano81/6853478324/

Matt Ryan
08-05-2013, 11:57 AM
There's something odd with the numbers on the Leicas. Phil's records don't seem to match this statement by Jim (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103664-Dragon-and-Leica-lenses&p=1237066&viewfull=1#post1237066), and this statement by Jarred (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103768-NEW-FF-Cine-Lenses-For-DRAGON-In-the-works&p=1238688&viewfull=1#post1238688).

Phil, could you clarify please.

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 12:03 PM
That is what I said, that I actually hoped Phil made en error, but then again, Vignetting if just a hint of it, or but a shadow at the corners I can deal with, of course full coverage thru out would be nicer... ;)

Dabling Harward
08-05-2013, 12:33 PM
A chart with screen grabs of the vignetting could really help the end user in the decision of lens choice.

MIght ease up some confusion everybody is having now.

Phil, thanks for all this wonderful info.

Andreas Mendritzki
08-05-2013, 12:50 PM
Most standard sets should be more than fine, as they're all created to cover 4-perf academy 35mm (which is a good deal taller than dragon)

Asif Limbada
08-05-2013, 12:52 PM
There's something odd with the numbers on the Leicas. Phil's records don't seem to match this statement by Jim (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103664-Dragon-and-Leica-lenses&p=1237066&viewfull=1#post1237066), and this statement by Jarred (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103768-NEW-FF-Cine-Lenses-For-DRAGON-In-the-works&p=1238688&viewfull=1#post1238688).

Phil, could you clarify please.

I second that...its kinda weird. From what I know is that Leica's have 34mm+ Image Circle. Wish I had a DRAGON to check it.

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 12:57 PM
Okay. Back home at the ranch now and I can answer several questions.


On FF35 still glass - Like it says in the first post, anything designed for that format will cover Epic Dragon at 6K no problem. Leica Rs, Canon EF, Nikons, Olympus, etc....

On the Tokina/Duclos 11-16mm - Now that's worth testing out. I have a stock Tokina and it does indeed cover FF35 at 16mm. I'll add that to the list of zooms to test. The Ruby 14-24mm should be tossed in too even though it should cover 6K Full. Maybe something happens in the conversion process that might change this. I'll take a look.

On Cooke 5/i Primes - We just weren't able to get a set of those on this particular day of testing. Those, the Kowas, K35s, vintage primes, etc... There's certainly more to test.

On Cooks Mini S4 Primes - Also didn't have these for this particular set. There was a brief moment at Duclos Lenses where Matthew had these months ago and he mentioned that they had very impressive coverage. We'll have to look at those for sure.

On Zoom Tests - The plan is to test zooms next.

On the accuracy of the Leica Summilux-C numbers - Yes. This is the correct information. There was no tequila involved during the test and there were other eyes around who verified these findings. It both reflects my individual measurements made a bit ago and also what visible coverage on Dragon represents. Most of these sets have been tested twice for coverage in reality. I am not error.

Patrick Grossien
08-05-2013, 01:15 PM
Thank you Phil for the update. And thank you for the great write up as usual ;)

Sorry to be poking further, but since there's the difference in the statements, what is it the Leicas do at 6K from your findings? Do you get hard edges at 6K or is it vignetting?

Will Keir
08-05-2013, 01:27 PM
Seems the same to me. From our SALT III, LECIA did a better job than MP. Now it's the opposite?


Phil, are you sure you didn't accidentally mix the Leica's with the Master Primes? Jarred has said the Leica's cover fully down to the 16mm which just slightly vignettes at 6K with the rest fully covering.

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 01:30 PM
Also, to be clear on the Leica Summilux-C Primes. I have spoken to the engineers at Leica regarding these lenses, as I have an unhealthy addiction towards knowledge on glass. The LSCs were designed with an image circle of 31.5mm in mind. Which is essentially what Mysterium-X at 5K Full is and what Epic Dragon 5.5K is. And they do in fact cover that format nicely.

Here are my "expanded Leica Summilux-C Notes".

18mm - 6K Wide Open usable w/ vignette until T5.6.
21mm - 6K Wide Open usable w/ vignette until T5.6.
25mm - Uneven corner illumination at 6K wide open.
35mm - 6K usable Wide Open but vignettes
40mm - 6K usable Wide Open but vignettes
50mm - Covers 6K, vignettes when iris at T22 and focused past 9 feet.
75mm - Covers all Epic Dragon Formats
100mm - Covers all Epic Dragon Formats

What can be discerned from this? In one way or another they are usable wide open until about T4 on Dragon at 6K and 6K WS. However, the initial graphics involve "clean coverage". This is why Jim is right and the numbers are right. It is a very noticeable vignette roll off however. T1.4-T2.8 and up until T4 you may find success and lovely images.


Some crop factor numbers for y'all.

Okay. So we have to keep in mind relative crop factor here. Meaning if FF35 is your starting point that's 1X, and if S35 is your starting point that's 1X. Here's the info for both with the aspect ratio of Dragon's sensor taken into account:

For people who visualize FF35 as their starting point......

Epic Dragon Crop Factors FF35 Relative to Full Frame 35mm:
6K Full = 1.17x
5.5K = 1.29x
5K = 1.40x
4K = 1.75x
3K = 2.33x
2K = 3.50x
1K = 5.25x

and for S35 as a base.....

Epic Dragon Crop Factors S35 Relative to Super 35mm (Dragon 5K):
6K Full = 0.84x
5.5K = 0.92x
5K = Base = 1x
4K = 1.25x
3K = 1.67x
2K = 2.50x
1K = 3.75x

Now this only reflects the size around the 1.94:1 and 1.9:1 aspect ratios and HD formats are not listed here. This is just a simple starting point to see how your given focal lengths FOV changes across various formats.

Enjoy.

KETCH ROSSi
08-05-2013, 01:47 PM
Phil,

since you are so good at numbers... Can you calculate the coverage of the Medium Format Leica S series?

I have been contemplating something with this lenses for the past few years, and Jarred is aware of my likes for this glass, just don't have the patience to calculate as you do... ;)

Will Keir
08-05-2013, 01:50 PM
there were other eyes around who verified these findings... I am not error.

Awesome that you took it upon yourself to get this information out, but I feel this is also the issue with these results. Who else was there?

I really liked the SALT format, people to double check findings and lend a critical eye. It's a more valid test when you have 3-4 DPs, directors and lens experts working collaboratively to stress test a lens. You also get 5-6 opinions to sort through to find your own truth. The "closed door" thing just turns people away.

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 02:00 PM
Awesome that you took it upon yourself to get this information out, but I feel this is also the issue with these results. Who else was there?

I really liked the SALT format, people to double check findings and lend a critical eye. It's a more valid test when you have 3-4 DPs, directors and lens experts working collaboratively to stress test a lens. You also get 5-6 opinions to sort through to find your own truth. The "closed door" thing just turns people away.


To be clear and 100% transparent this was an undertaking done with myself and Red at Red Studios Hollywood. And several Red folk were there making notes, helping out, and making observations as well. We had people double checking with critical eyes. There is no "my own truth" there is only the image in the frame and numbers. This was a test done to share information regarding Dragon coverage for everybody in the motion picture community and was conducted as such.

Also, I have been doing lens tests professionally for over ten years on feature productions, but I guess that's not the point really.

And if you recall as Matthew said during our last test there's every reason in the world to have a concise mind and eye applied to the testing of glass by an individual. Which is why discerning tests such as resolving power, field performance, performance across the entire focus range, at various iris settings, etc... etc... etc...

Matt Ryan
08-05-2013, 02:05 PM
To be clear and 100% transparent this was an undertaking done with myself and Red at Red Studios Hollywood. And several Red folk were there making notes, helping out, and making observations as well. We had people double checking with critical eyes. There is no "my own truth" there is only the image in the frame and numbers. This was a test done to share information regarding Dragon coverage for everybody in the motion picture community and was conducted as such.

Also, I have been doing lens tests professionally for over ten years on feature productions, but I guess that's not the point really.

And if you recall as Matthew said during our last test there's every reason in the world to have a concise mind and eye applied to the testing of glass by an individual. Which is why discerning tests such as resolving power, field performance, performance across the entire focus range, at various iris settings, etc... etc... etc...

I understand your findings, but what I cannot wrap my head around is on a projector at Duclos for the SALT test, the Leica's had greater coverage than the MP's especially on the wide end. So that's where my confusion stems from... It's like the opposite now.

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 02:15 PM
I understand your findings, but what I cannot wrap my head around is on a projector at Duclos for the SALT test, the Leica's had greater coverage than the MP's especially on the wide end. So that's where my confusion stems from... It's like the opposite now.

It was made clear that by Matthew himself that that wasn't the best way to test for coverage. And remember we tested wide open and occasionally stopped down to T2.8 when those lenses were on the projector. Wide open the Leica's all projected the target "cleanly" with a bit of fall off. And if you remember correctly the Summilux-C 75mm was the one we were all impressed by it's image circle projecting that target. Which not only covers, but covers through the iris range. Great lens IMO.

There's a variety of ways to test coverage with several devices. This particular test is all about how these lenses perform on Dragon. It's important to toss the lenses on this camera as there's various things that could come into play that a simple measurement may not provide. Also very important to see the image in the frame itself.

felipe meneghel
08-05-2013, 02:19 PM
Thanks guys!
And keep "discussing"!

Patrick Grossien
08-05-2013, 03:32 PM
Thank you Phil for taking the time and effort! The expanded notes really help !

Really appreciate all your extensive work and openness ! Thank you!

charles lim yi yong
08-05-2013, 04:12 PM
Hey Phil, the larger the sensor. The better the resolving power for all lenses across the board?
Does it mean that for the anamorphic, it's possible wider apertures?

Jarred Land
08-05-2013, 05:01 PM
Just remember guys, " Slight Vignette " means different things to different people. All lenses have transmission falloff from center to edge. Some have more , some have less. So when Phil says the Leica's vignette at 6K WS, his definition may be different from yours.

For example, here is a Dragon with a dirty sensor and the Leica 25mm at 6K WS at about T32 ( or whatever it is right before the Leica's closing iris snaps shut ) pointing at a lightbox. Sure there is fall off to the corners, but you likely would never shoot at this stop ( the lenses dont even go past to T22 ) and the fall off is barely noticable. At 6K full frame, you will see some harder edges on some lenses in the corners if you close down as Phil said, But I just want to make sure when he says " Usable at 6K with slight vignette " the translation is such. Phil isn't technically wrong.. he is being super clinical ( as he should be).

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1375776603.jpg (http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1375776603.jpg)

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 05:26 PM
Phil isn't technically wrong.. he is being super clinical ( as he should be).

Yep, this is more or less a by the numbers test with no real creative interpretation. For me under most the most common shooting conditions the Leica Summilux-Cs are very usable lenses at Dragong's 6K Full that cover at the T Stops you'd likely be shooting at anyways.

And these are actually currently my favorite super speeds out there for a variety of reasons. Mainly the character, resolving power, and somewhat miraculous coatings. Size too.



Hey Phil, the larger the sensor. The better the resolving power for all lenses across the board?
Does it mean that for the anamorphic, it's possible wider apertures?

Hi Charles. A few things to take note on in regards to true resolving power.

Quick thing to keep in mine, for the immediate future when it comes to motion pictures we'll be creating a 4K master for a 4K delivery. That's going on industry wide at this point.

Okay. Now onto the Dragon sensor.

First up is the pixel size. Pixels are smaller on Dragon compared to Mysterium-X, so in terms of sensor "real estate" you get more pixels in the same physical area.

The next thing to consider is that capturing at 6K, 5.5K, and 5K finished for a 4K deliverable is going to take advantage of a concept most call "super sampling". Meaning capturing at a higher resolution then your desired final output and scaling down to your desired output size. Various re-size and scaling methods yield different results, however all benefit by having more information. And we're not even getting into sharpening talk yet, which can extract even more detail.

This is going to benefit all lenses really. Most modern optics from the last few decades resolve 75-200 line pairs per millimeter. Commonly 140-200LP/mm center frame, lower then 140LP/mm is considered fairly soft these days. Some lenses hold that 200LP/mm across the field, some soften up a bit. Most soften drastically towards the outer field of S35 coverage. This is pretty much how they have been designed and also some physical limitations behind the elements used.

The advantage here is if you capture at 6K with say a lens that's in the 140LP/mm range and scale down to 4K for your finish you'll have a fairly impressive result right away.

Great resolving lenses tend to be in the 200LP/mm and up. Depends on how your measure that really. When you see an "easy 200" you're looking at some extremely nice glass.

Elsie N
08-05-2013, 05:35 PM
I'm so pleased I went with FX Nikon glass originally.

For the time being, my only concern is paying for Dragon updates knowing my lenses used on my Epic MX will transfer smoothly to the Dragon sensored camera.

I made the statement in the past that the RED camera is so good it makes pretty pictures even with lenses that have previously been discounted as not good enough. Of course Leicas and the other great cine lenses will look great for those who work in the "best image available" world of imaging, but from an Indie perspective, this camera in all its iterations make my stills Nikons look great.

I consider the Dragon will not only upgrade my camera, but my lenses as well.

Mike 'Fireman' Ross
08-05-2013, 07:53 PM
Jeff, I don't think the vII has any coverage differences vs the vI.

Are you sure about the Tokina not covering 16mm at Full Frame? Maybe it vignettes and we haven't noticed? If you look at this piece here, the opening "wide" shot is the 11-16 on a 5D, whereas the rest of the piece is Red One MX with Ultraprimes.

Either way. Point still stands. This "little powerhouse" as you call it (I like that!), should be TERRIFIC on Dragon.


If you don't need to go quite so wide I'll keep banging my drum for the Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8. Astonishing quality for a mass-produced lens at that price.

And of course absolutely NO coverage issues on Dragon at 6K at any focal length...

Mike

Jeff Kilgroe
08-05-2013, 08:05 PM
Jeff, I don't think the vII has any coverage differences vs the vI.

Are you sure about the Tokina not covering 16mm at Full Frame? Maybe it vignettes and we haven't noticed? If you look at this piece here, the opening "wide" shot is the 11-16 on a 5D, whereas the rest of the piece is Red One MX with Ultraprimes.

My Nikon mount versions -- I own two of them -- of the 11-16 both fall just shy of total coverage at 16mm on my D3X and D800. So I guess that's where I'm coming from with it. I'm also nitpicking -- it's mostly a portholing effect with noticeable falloff. And ever so slight start to vignette in the very tips of the corners. I also own the Duclos PL modded version of the lens, never have had it on a camera with a full-frame sensor. It's one of my all-time favorite lenses to shoot with!


Either way. Point still stands. This "little powerhouse" as you call it (I like that!), should be TERRIFIC on Dragon.

Totally agree! :)

Nick Morrison
08-05-2013, 08:08 PM
If you don't need to go quite so wide I'll keep banging my drum for the Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8. Astonishing quality for a mass-produced lens at that price.

And of course absolutely NO coverage issues on Dragon at 6K at any focal length...

Mike

No doubt. Many people consider the Nikon 12-24 2.8 one of the great Full Frame wide-angles available. It's an absolute BEAST. The Tokina 11-16 is not as good, it's just a whole lot cheaper.

Pound for pound, the Zeiss 15 2.8 and Nikon 12-24 2.8 are hard to beat if your looking for FF wides. The Zeiss 21 2.8 is a beast too, but not an ultrawide like the other two, so I personally categorize it in a separate "bucket".

Will Keir
08-05-2013, 08:27 PM
How many stops do we gain in the darks with Epic Dragon from Epic MX?

I was excited to hear Mark comment that the Dragon shoots the image he sees with his eyes. That's why I signed on for this ride in 2005 and put money down in 2007. Both the R1 and Epic were not quite sensitive enough for me, which is why I turned to high speed lenses. Now I'm super badass at pulling the shallow depth of field work, unintended but useful.

Is a Epic MX + Master Prime at T1.3 = Epic Dragon + Ultra Prime at T1.8 in terms of light sensitivity?



And remember we tested wide open and occasionally stopped down to T2.8 when those lenses were on the projector. Wide open the Leica's all projected the target "cleanly" with a bit of fall off.

Will Keir
08-05-2013, 08:28 PM
Jarred,

What are you shooting at T32!!!


here is a Dragon with a dirty sensor and the Leica 25mm at 6K WS at about T32

Will Keir
08-05-2013, 08:31 PM
Phil,

I know I seem a bit demanding, just excited like you guys are.

Do you have any screen grabs of the vignetting you could share with us?

Thanks again for all the hard work.


Usable at 6K with slight vignette " the translation is such. Phil isn't technically wrong.. he is being super clinical ( as he should be).

Mike 'Fireman' Ross
08-05-2013, 08:37 PM
Quick thing to keep in mine, for the immediate future when it comes to motion pictures we'll be creating a 4K master for a 4K delivery. That's going on industry wide at this point.

Yes-ish - although we should ideally be shooting with an eye to the future, as Jim would doubtless point out, with his tireless and true denunciation '1080P is not enough'.


Let me digress a little.


We master and deliver for the immediate future.


We buy cameras for the immediate future.


We buy glass for the coming *decades*.


Digital cameras come and go in a relative eye blink. Footage… gets stale. Yes, shoot for the future - but how much of it will really end up remastered for some higher resolution than 4K? Much is relatively ephemeral.


But good glass can and should last the best part of a *career*.


These tests - and thanks for them! - represent one facet of the now. What's the bets on where sensor size is going? Will we step back, in a sense, and be shooting on, say, 8K sensors that are standard S35 in a very few years? Is the size of the Dragon a temporary excursion, an aberration? Or are we headed inexorably towards FF35, or something not far short of it, being the new standard?


Leica took a view on this when they designed Summilux-C and decided NOT to make them cover FF35.


Just some points to ponder :-)


For the now, I'd like to know how far the Master Zoom will cover on Dragon!


Mike

PatrickFaith
08-05-2013, 08:40 PM
Hey Phil, awesome job ... much thanks, especially for running the lens discussion gauntlet! My question is on my RPP, I have given up using my 18mm rpp on the dragon, but I was hoping to use my 35. In your notes you say the 35 is clean at 5.5k but only covers 6k on close focus. I was wondering if the 35mm RPP would be usable at 6k wide screen(I wouldn't mind having a small lens correction node in nuke if there was a slight vignetting)?

[ my problem being that my 50mm rpp will effectively 46mm at 6k and the 35mm will be effectively 38mm @5.5k, and having a 38mm & 46mm ( 8mm effective difference) is just to small of a range as a tool. ]

---
or is the 50 mm effectively 46 mm at 6k and the 35 is basically 35 at 5.5k (that will still be a 10mm effective difference).

Florian Stadler
08-05-2013, 09:16 PM
Aha, Phil's ploy to move up the que...

Asif Limbada
08-05-2013, 10:19 PM
Expanded notes on Master Primes...??

Phil Holland
08-05-2013, 10:43 PM
Done with my fish and chips.



Just some points to ponder :-)

Interesting points Mike and I agree for the most part. I am very, very much on Jim's and Red's side when it comes to 1080p not being "enough". Anybody who works with Super 35mm at a feature level should acknowledge the reasons why. Luckily at this point the 4K concept is sort of a given if you look at the motion picture landscape unfolding before our eyes. It does somewhat sadden me looking back at those who were so aggressively against 4K not too long ago. Such silliness really.

One of the things I think Red needs to be commended on with Dragon is just how much they listened to industry leading DPs as well as the little guys. We now have 5K resolution within the S35 frame. We have more resolution in the full Mysterium-X frame with 5.5K. And 6K is going to provide that extra sensor size for those who enjoy that larger format. And that's the word right there. Red Dragon is a multi-format system. And in my mind, at least from my perspective of how film has been digitized on major motion pictures and where my career began, Dragon is the first true new system that can fully replace film. Mysterium-X had the resolution down. Dragon's got the resolution and dynamic range as well as the relevance of resolution per format size. This to me was a smart move. And I know I'm not the only one who thinks that.

My two favorite formats have been S35 and VistaVision. S35 isn't going anywhere as a format, it's too good. Red paved new ground with Mysterium-X's larger sensor. Dragon is doing much the same. In fact it's a similar level of chaos if my memory serves correct. But image makers have been asking for it. Red's bringing it to market. You have to respect that.



My question is on my RPP, I have given up using my 18mm rpp on the dragon, but I was hoping to use my 35. In your notes you say the 35 is clean at 5.5k but only covers 6k on close focus. I was wondering if the 35mm RPP would be usable at 6k wide screen(I wouldn't mind having a small lens correction node in nuke if there was a slight vignetting)?

[ my problem being that my 50mm rpp will effectively 46mm at 6k and the 35mm will be effectively 38mm @5.5k, and having a 38mm & 46mm ( 8mm effective difference) is just to small of a range as a tool. ]

or is the 50 mm effectively 46 mm at 6k and the 35 is basically 35 at 5.5k (that will still be a 10mm effective difference).


Personally I wouldn't get rid of any of those lenses. The Red Pro Prime 35mm performs similarly at 6K WS, which is basically covering within close focus. However, remember the RPP 18 and 35mm are entirely usable with 5.5K. This is going to be important for a lot of folks to look at especially when capturing and finishing for 16x9 displays.

Mike 'Fireman' Ross
08-05-2013, 11:09 PM
We now have 5K resolution within the S35 frame. We have more resolution in the full Mysterium-X frame with 5.5K. And 6K is going to provide that extra sensor size for those who enjoy that larger format. And that's the word right there. Red Dragon is a multi-format system.

DING!

For me, the big things with Dragon are (in approximate priority):

1. Better low light / noise floor (that's *massive* for me, shooting by available light, often at night)
2. 5K in S35 (for cropping, reframing, and/or 4K finish) with ALL S35 glass.
3. Enhanced DR
4. 6K stills potential.

I *really* look forward to the day when this kind of thread is largely irrelevant. True multi-format.

'Does it vignette at 6K?'. Who cares? It shoots 12K FF35, which is enough for anyone who doesn't need a view camera. It shoots 8K at S35, with every lens ever built for that format, which is enough for everything presently conceivable, and it shoots 4K at S16 - so dust off the best of that old glass.

THAT is where I want to be.

Jim, please take us there. Soon.

Mike

Christopher Probst
08-05-2013, 11:26 PM
Let's not forget the drop in a crop factor and increased resolution for anamorphic support!

6K ANA for a 2:1 squeeze anamorphic mode is around 3792 (18.96mm) x 3160 (15.8mm). Here, with anamorphics, the driving crop factor is no longer the width, but the shorter height of the sensors.

The Dragon sensor at 15.8mm tall is up from the 14.58mm of the MX chip. That means the crop factor on anamorphic lenses on Epics with Dragons in them will go from 1.22 down to 1.1266... This is another massive plus for the Dragon.

I remember shooting anamorphic on Red Ones... The R1 has a 1.424 crop factor with its 12.5mm tall sensor.... That meant a 50mm anamorphic prime had the effective field of view of a 71mm! It got better on Epic, a 50mm looked like a 61mm. Now with Dragon, that 50mm will give us a 56mm equivalent.

This matters MUCH more with wide angles. On a R1, trying to get a wide shot was a nightmare. On my Black Eyed Peas shoot, our widest Kowa lens was a 40mm. We shot ImmaBe/Rock That Body on Red Ones which made our widest lens about 57mm; basically like a 28mm in spherical terms.

Is it any wonder my first chance to shoot Dragon was in 6K ANA?

Patrick Grossien
08-06-2013, 12:19 AM
Thank you Phil for taking the time and effort! The expanded notes really help !

Really appreciate all your extensive work and openness ! Thank you!

hehehe I just corrected" expensive" work... Auto correct seems to have noted the lenses which were tested :)

TD Wood
08-06-2013, 12:26 AM
Many thanks, Phil!!!

Patrick Grossien
08-06-2013, 12:32 AM
Do you have any screen grabs of the vignetting you could share with us?

I was wondering the same thing, but this would be excessive. You would need an App of some sorts that would let you dial in each screen for each lens on every aperture and every resolution shot and compare them side by side. I guess there's quite some footage of white screens behind the doors and I'm pretty sure it's too much to share.

BTW, Phil did you actually dial in the different resolutions or did you calculate these from 6K FF shots?

Phil Holland
08-06-2013, 12:36 AM
BTW, Phil did you actually dial in the different resolutions or did you calculate these from 6K FF shots?

Dialed in and even used frame overlay to look harder. Pushed up the ISO a good amount to see information on light fall off and field illumination. Occasionally pointed into darkness/contrast and at details to make some notes on a few other things outside of coverage.

David (dudi) Namir
08-06-2013, 01:35 AM
Phil, thanks for all that and for answering tons of questions on this post.
Just wonder about my Leica Van Diemen rehoused. these were originally Leica stills lenses, I think the R series, I always tend to forget, and they still provide a beautiful image. We use them a lot for table top on the Phantom Flex (25.6 mm x 16.0 mm sensor size) and recently we shot a Sprite commercial with them.
Anyone has an idea how they will work on the Dragon?

Nick Morrison
08-06-2013, 01:39 AM
Phil, thanks for all that and for answering tons of questions on this post.
Just wonder about my Leica Van Diemen rehoused. these were originally Leica stills lenses, I think the R series, I always tend to forget, and they still provide a beautiful image. We use them a lot for table top on the Phantom Flex (25.6 mm x 16.0 mm sensor size) and recently we shot a Sprite commercial with them.
Anyone has an idea how they will work on the Dragon?

They should cover Dragon completely, as they are FULL FRAME.

Tom Lowe
08-06-2013, 02:01 AM
Let's assemble a comprehensive list. Were you planning to do that Phil? I will have coverage info on Master Prime 12m, 14mm and 16mm shortly, as well as Zeiss 70-200 PL zoom. I also have a Leica M mount and Notci 50mm I can test. I assume there are no issues putting Leica M mount on Dragon?

I really need coverage info for Optimo zooms.

vincent kardasik
08-06-2013, 02:19 AM
Okay. Back home at the ranch now and I can answer several questions.


On FF35 still glass - Like it says in the first post, anything designed for that format will cover Epic Dragon at 6K no problem. Leica Rs, Canon EF, Nikons, Olympus, etc....

On the Tokina/Duclos 11-16mm - Now that's worth testing out. I have a stock Tokina and it does indeed cover FF35 at 16mm. I'll add that to the list of zooms to test. The Ruby 14-24mm should be tossed in too even though it should cover 6K Full. Maybe something happens in the conversion process that might change this. I'll take a look.

On Cooke 5/i Primes - We just weren't able to get a set of those on this particular day of testing. Those, the Kowas, K35s, vintage primes, etc... There's certainly more to test.

On Cooks Mini S4 Primes - Also didn't have these for this particular set. There was a brief moment at Duclos Lenses where Matthew had these months ago and he mentioned that they had very impressive coverage. We'll have to look at those for sure.

On Zoom Tests - The plan is to test zooms next.

On the accuracy of the Leica Summilux-C numbers - Yes. This is the correct information. There was no tequila involved during the test and there were other eyes around who verified these findings. It both reflects my individual measurements made a bit ago and also what visible coverage on Dragon represents. Most of these sets have been tested twice for coverage in reality. I am not error.

Phil, will you be able to test Red Zooms, 17-50mm and 50-150mm?
Massive thanks for your time and these tests!

Phil Holland
08-06-2013, 02:23 AM
Let's assemble a comprehensive list. Were you planning to do that Phil? I will have coverage info on Master Prime 12m, 14mm and 16mm shortly, as well as Zeiss 70-200 PL zoom. I also have a Leica M mount and Notci 50mm I can test. I assume there are no issues putting Leica M mount on Dragon?

I really need coverage info for Optimo zooms.

Yep. We're making a big list that will be accessible for everybody everywhere. We just knocked out the most used and common stuff first. More primes certainly to come as well as zooms.

The Zeiss CZ 70-200 T2.9 covers Dragon at 6K without breaking a sweat. The 28-80 CZ T2.9 does as well. The upcoming ultra wide CZ zoom will cover too.

The Leica M Noctilux 50mm will also cover Dragon at 6K. I don't know if it still rings true for Dragon, but there is a certain issue about the rear element of certain wide M mount lenses protruding too far back into the camera too far that may damage the lens or camera itself. This may or may not be resolved. I'll ask. It'd still refrain from going too wide with M mounts due to their optical design.

Optimos are high up on the list to test out. I have rough numbers, but it is much better to put the lenses on Dragon to find out format coverage.

Asif Limbada
08-06-2013, 02:46 AM
As of now Ultra Primes and Master Primes (that were meant for S35) cover almost everything without any "vignettes", till 24mm and 25mm respectively.

And Leica's vignettes at 40mm as well...

The above is something I really can't believe, hence I want to see if you have "Expanded Notes" on Master and Ultra Primes.

I think its more to do with the lens characteristic than anything else. I would be doing my tests soon. But to me its simple it covers 6K and just vignettes slightly (not be mixed with coverage, its lens characteristics)

Jannard
08-06-2013, 02:54 AM
I stand by my post that the Leicas are my pick as the best lens set for Dragon. While there is some slight vignetting (there is some on most lenses), the combination of resolution and color... coupled with size and speed make these my 1st choice. Center and edge resolution isn't matched by any lens I have tested for any given focal length. If the vignetting on these Leicas bothers you... my bet is that you haven't taken a close look at your favorite lenses. Even full frame Canon and Nikon lenses vignette to some degree.

Having said that... there are a TON of great lens options for Dragon, including many lenses outside "normal" focal lengths. I have a 200mm f2.0 Nikon lens that I love. The 300mm RPP is awesome. I'm quite sure the Ultra Primes will get a ton of Dragon use. Anything you currently own will work.

Jim

Jon MIchael Puntervold
08-06-2013, 03:07 AM
I'm quite sure the Ultra Primes will get a ton of Dragon use.

Any chance we'll see new Ultras with i/interface or LDS on the Red PL?

Asif Limbada
08-06-2013, 03:10 AM
I stand by my post that the Leicas are my pick as the best lens set for Dragon. While there is some slight vignetting (there is some on most lenses), the combination of resolution and color... coupled with size and speed make these my 1st choice. Center and edge resolution isn't matched by any lens I have tested for any given focal length. If the vignetting on these Leicas bothers you... my bet is that you haven't taken a close look at your favorite lenses. Even full frame Canon and Nikon lenses vignette to some degree.

Having said that... there are a TON of great lens options for Dragon, including many lenses outside "normal" focal lengths. I have a 200mm f2.0 Nikon lens that I love. The 300mm RPP is awesome. I'm quite sure the Ultra Primes will get a ton of Dragon use. Anything you currently own will work.

Jim


Yes Jim, I agree exactly, even FF lenses vignettes and it can be blamed as being "characteristic" of the lens.

My point here is that I am sure Masters and Ultras have some "characteristics" which were completely ignored and Leica's even vignetted at 40mm, come on...

Not that it matters, I will be doing my own test with my lens sets. Just wanted to see if Phil had Expanded notes on those lenses as well :)

Phil Holland
08-06-2013, 03:10 AM
I'll back you on that Jim. Those Leicas have a bit of magic in them that's rather different from other top tier glass. I'm both a realist and a pixel peeper (loathe that term). The LSCs are special in a very new way.

I picked up a set of Schneider Cine-Xenar IIIs because I have an odd fascination for them and they are damn proper for production use. But I did briefly think for a moment about finding a way to get funds together for those Summilux-Cs. I'll have to work on that next year.

Phil Holland
08-06-2013, 03:12 AM
FYI, there's not much to expand on the Master Primes and Ultra Primes. Those are pretty much concise notes on those.

Asif Limbada
08-06-2013, 03:13 AM
FYI, there's not much to expand on the Master Primes and Ultra Primes. Those are pretty much concise notes on those.

cool... :)

KETCH ROSSi
08-06-2013, 03:25 AM
All good on my side... Just prematurely panicked at the word Vignetting... ;)

That the Leica Summilux C. Primes are the best there is, I had no doubts form the moment I shot with it on M8 IN Munich in 2011 thanks to a loaner from Band Pro, and immediately Ordered them.


And can't wait to shoot my first piece on DRAGON with them... And also get some nice 6' print to sport... ;)

Asif Limbada
08-06-2013, 03:34 AM
All good on my side... Just prematurely panicked at the word Vignetting... ;)

That the Leica Summilux C. Primes are the best there is, I had no doubts form the moment I shot with it on M8 IN Munich in 2011 thanks to a loaner from Band Pro, and immediately Ordered them.


And can't wait to shoot my first piece on DRAGON with them... And also get some nice 6' print to sport... ;)

Yeah Ketch, they are the best you will love them :)

KETCH ROSSi
08-06-2013, 04:32 AM
I know Asif... And if I don't have them in time or can't source them otherwise locally to my shot,... I'll bring you and yours to it... ;)

Jason Diamond
08-06-2013, 04:55 AM
I stand by my post that the Leicas are my pick as the best lens set for Dragon. While there is some slight vignetting (there is some on most lenses), the combination of resolution and color... coupled with size and speed make these my 1st choice. Center and edge resolution isn't matched by any lens I have tested for any given focal length. If the vignetting on these Leicas bothers you... my bet is that you haven't taken a close look at your favorite lenses. Even full frame Canon and Nikon lenses vignette to some degree.

Having said that... there are a TON of great lens options for Dragon, including many lenses outside "normal" focal lengths. I have a 200mm f2.0 Nikon lens that I love. The 300mm RPP is awesome. I'm quite sure the Ultra Primes will get a ton of Dragon use. Anything you currently own will work.

Jim

I can't wait to put my Leica-R set on my Dragon(s), I think those lenses are gonna be the new choice for coverage, price and image.

Asif Limbada
08-06-2013, 05:46 AM
I know Asif... And if I don't have them in time or can't source them otherwise locally to my shot,... I'll bring you and yours to it... ;)

Anytime man. And I'm sure you will shoot 6K as much as possible. Perfect lens for that ;)

Medavoym
08-06-2013, 06:27 AM
It was made clear that by Matthew himself that that wasn't the best way to test for coverage. And remember we tested wide open and occasionally stopped down to T2.8 when those lenses were on the projector. Wide open the Leica's all projected the target "cleanly" with a bit of fall off. And if you remember correctly the Summilux-C 75mm was the one we were all impressed by it's image circle projecting that target. Which not only covers, but covers through the iris range. Great lens IMO.

There's a variety of ways to test coverage with several devices. This particular test is all about how these lenses perform on Dragon. It's important to toss the lenses on this camera as there's various things that could come into play that a simple measurement may not provide. Also very important to see the image in the frame itself.

To be blunt about it - apologies in advance! - this shows again that shooting charts, checking lenses on projectors, measuring lines etc doesn't mean much.
Of course, it has its usefulness - for the technical inclined, for the pixel peeps, for lens technicians and for people like Duclos who do need an objective standard to compare (important). And even then, you get what happened here - on a lens projector, it looked like Leicas had more coverage, on the actual camera, it's the opposite.

But, all these technical charts/lines don't mean much for the artist, anyway. Invariably, the artist will try different lenses on the camera, shoot a landscape, shoot some faces, shoot some exteriors, shoot some interiors, and then project the results on the big screen. The artist invariably picks what his EYES will tell him, not what the numbers say. He looks at the image on the screen, not at the lens projector.

KETCH ROSSi
08-06-2013, 06:28 AM
Yes 6K all the way buddy, especially for all the Fashion Films I'll shoot from which I'll be printing some HUGE Canvases to cover the walls of my new Studio in LA... ;)

Medavoym
08-06-2013, 06:35 AM
Yes 6K all the way buddy, especially for all the Fashion Films I'll shoot from which I'll be printing some HUGE Canvases to cover the walls of my new Studio in LA... ;)

It's probably the 45th time you are mentioning this, Ketch :-)

Take a deep breath and relax :-)

Dragon will be great with all kinds of lenses.

KETCH ROSSi
08-06-2013, 06:51 AM
It's probably the 45th time you are mentioning this, Ketch :-)

Take a deep breath and relax :-)...




Sorry, isn't going to happen... ;)


I'll relax when I die... Again... ;)

Asif Limbada
08-06-2013, 06:56 AM
Sorry, isn't going to happen... ;)


I'll relax when I die... Again... ;)

thats way man. :)

SUNILPREM
08-06-2013, 09:41 AM
Thank you Phil for this great information


Sunil Prem

Phil Holland
08-06-2013, 11:40 AM
To be blunt about it - apologies in advance! - this shows again that shooting charts, checking lenses on projectors, measuring lines etc doesn't mean much.
Of course, it has its usefulness - for the technical inclined, for the pixel peeps, for lens technicians and for people like Duclos who do need an objective standard to compare (important). And even then, you get what happened here - on a lens projector, it looked like Leicas had more coverage, on the actual camera, it's the opposite.

But, all these technical charts/lines don't mean much for the artist, anyway. Invariably, the artist will try different lenses on the camera, shoot a landscape, shoot some faces, shoot some exteriors, shoot some interiors, and then project the results on the big screen. The artist invariably picks what his EYES will tell him, not what the numbers say. He looks at the image on the screen, not at the lens projector.


I have such crazy thoughts on this matter. There's actually every reason in the world to test lenses on a projector, measuring resolving power, shooting charts, etc..... It can point out an "absolute" truths and flaws regarding a lens and also more importantly sometimes reveal if the lens needs to be serviced in some way. For instance if there's a soft corner in a projected lens that reveals something is up and needs to be addressed. Also, the technical tests truly reveal why a lens performs the way it does. If we didn't understand that they would just be magic tube that gather and shoot out light.


There seems to be a mindset of some, and these are things I've heard in the past, "I don't shoot charts, I shoot scenes" or something similar.

However, my direct reply is there's absolutely no reason not to test lenses scientifically and also aesthetically. We don't need to live an either or sort of situation here.


Recently I spent a few days shooting with the Illuminas for instance because I wanted to get to know them better. I did the charts and whatnot, but then I took the lenses outside into the wild. High contrast, shooting wide open, shooting closed, low light, full focus pulls, etc.... Now I have a better understanding of what they can do based on their technical attributes, but also some other interesting intangibles like how they feel at T1.3 and why they feel a bit different at T2 and T2.8.

There's values to both ways of thinking. Without one it's hard to have the other really.

Remember optics are designed by engineers and made for artists. And in this professional you could say that optical engineers are artists themselves, the vice versa could also be said about DPs in some regard as well these days.

Humberto Rivera
08-06-2013, 12:02 PM
Phil, and Mark have done a wonderful service to the whole RedUser community, I personally want to thank you both! The information on the Leica Summilux-C Primes was most welcome, it kind of confirm something that I suspected, I’m sure they have the resolution! However the "Master Primes” do have the breath (12 mm to 150 mm), the T Stop (every little helps), they have been battled tested for a decade (any problems would have surfaced by now), they have (LDS) (and if lucky Red might adopt-it), and they seem wider at a Wider Focal length (25 mm). They’re both good lenses, but I would give the edge to the Mater Primes. If you have any additional notes, like you did with the Leica Summilux-C Primes, but on the Master Primes, IT WOULD BE NICE TO COMPARE THEM! Just saying!

Humberto Rivera

Robert L. Mickles
08-06-2013, 12:22 PM
Thank you for the info, Phil! Nice job as usual. Very informative.

Humberto Rivera
08-06-2013, 12:34 PM
I just wanted to add to my post the Epic 6K Dragon has an Image circle of 34.5 Ř mm, the 6000 X 3000 image at 2:1 has an Image Circle of 33.52 Ř mm, and that extra 1 mm could be the difference between using all the Master Primes or possibly the Leica Summilux-C Primes!

Humberto Rivera

Adam Watson
08-07-2013, 09:44 AM
Unfortunate news.

Robert Horwell
08-07-2013, 04:44 PM
Phil any chance you could put a set of Cooke Mini S4i on the dragon?

Will Keir
08-07-2013, 05:12 PM
The results for Leica Summilux C Primes during the SALT III projector phase at Duclos were similar to Master primes, perhaps slightly better. Similar high numbers for line pairs per millimeter(200, except for the longs), very little breathing, minor light fall off and good contrast but in my notes the Leica Primes had more coverage for the Dragon specs which were not official at the time but we had a rough idea from Phil's chart.

There could be variation in the lenses themselves.

It's interested that Jim fell in love with the 75mm Lecia Summilux C because that lens for our SALT III tests scored the lowest of the four tested, including spherical aberrations. My old 85mm Zeiss Super Speed MKII put up better lp/mm numbers for Super 35mm coverage area. The leica 75mm scored 100 compared to 140 by the Super Speed.

All the videos are still online from SALT III. Worth another look thanks to Matt Ryan.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?94289-SALT-III-High-Speed-Lens-Shootout-quot-WFO-quot-Results






you get what happened here - on a lens projector, it looked like Leicas had more coverage, on the actual camera, it's the opposite.

Will Keir
08-07-2013, 05:22 PM
"Magic Tubes!" Sign me up, I'll take 5.


If we didn't understand that they would just be magic tube that gather and shoot out light.

Will Keir
08-07-2013, 05:24 PM
What about the Summicron Cs?


All good on my side... Just prematurely panicked at the word Vignetting... ;)

That the Leica Summilux C. Primes are the best there is, I had no doubts form the moment I shot with it on M8 IN Munich in 2011 thanks to a loaner from Band Pro, and immediately Ordered them.


And can't wait to shoot my first piece on DRAGON with them... And also get some nice 6' print to sport... ;)

Christian Munoz D
08-07-2013, 05:34 PM
Thank you Phil, great post!!!

Will Keir
08-07-2013, 05:36 PM
But the Leica's are smaller, significantly.


Phil, and Mark have done a wonderful service to the whole RedUser community, I personally want to thank you both! The information on the Leica Summilux-C Primes was most welcome, it kind of confirm something that I suspected, I’m sure they have the resolution! However the "Master Primes” do have the breath (12 mm to 150 mm), the T Stop (every little helps), they have been battled tested for a decade (any problems would have surfaced by now), they have (LDS) (and if lucky Red might adopt-it), and they seem wider at a Wider Focal length (25 mm). They’re both good lenses, but I would give the edge to the Mater Primes. If you have any additional notes, like you did with the Leica Summilux-C Primes, but on the Master Primes, IT WOULD BE NICE TO COMPARE THEM! Just saying!

Humberto Rivera

Phil Holland
08-07-2013, 06:10 PM
Phil any chance you could put a set of Cooke Mini S4i on the dragon?

Yep. Don't know when, but they are high up on the list to test. I think you'll like what they do coverage-wise though.



It's interested that Jim fell in love with the 75mm Lecia Summilux C because that lens for our SALT III tests scored the lowest of the four tested, including spherical aberrations. My old 85mm Zeiss Super Speed MKII put up better lp/mm numbers for Super 35mm coverage area. The leica 75mm scored 100 compared to 140 by the Super Speed.

Yeah. That was an oddity wasn't it? I'm guessing it was that particular lens. I've tested two others that were significantly better than that. Pretty sure the ones we used a month ago were also on the crispier side of things. Testing lenses is tough. Sometimes sets are in various states of needing service. I wonder if Matthew has had any sets come through Duclos in the last few months.

paul schefz
08-07-2013, 06:31 PM
any info on how and if the leica m mount will work with dragon? same limitations?

Christopher Probst
08-07-2013, 06:47 PM
I'm certainly no optical engineer, but as I understand it, (and it makes sense intuitively) is that with multiple aspheric surfaces being employed in the Leicas, which by their very nature are harder to repeatedly create within an extremely tight tolerance window, you are bound to see variation from lens to lens. With those aspheric surfaces basically being tuned-in by hand, it's highly probable that you will also see variation between each time you service and alter the relationship between all of those unique elements.

Think why it takes so long for them to produce sets of these... It's months of laborious tweaking to get the lenses to hit their spec. This is why I've stated a number of times that these lenses will be very hard to maintain over their lifespan. You need an extremely talented optical tech who is patient enough to take the time to dial each lens in.

This complicated optical design was a deliberate choice to utilize aspherics to correct aberrations enherent in any lens and optical path... Straight lines, aberration correction and the highest level of performance was selected over ease of maintenance.

Elsie N
08-07-2013, 07:27 PM
I'm certainly no optical engineer, but as I understand it, (and it makes sense intuitively) is that with multiple aspheric surfaces being employed in the Leicas, which by their very nature are harder to repeatedly create within an extremely tight tolerance window, you are bound to see variation from lens to lens. With those aspheric surfaces basically being tuned-in by hand, it's highly probable that you will also see variation between each time you service and alter the relationship between all of those unique elements.

Think why it takes so long for them to produce sets of these... It's months of laborious tweaking to get the lenses to hit their spec. This is why I've stated a number of times that these lenses will be very hard to maintain over their lifespan. You need an extremely talented optical tech who is patient enough to take the time to dial each lens in.

This complicated optical design was a deliberate choice to utilize aspherics to correct aberrations enherent in any lens and optical path... Straight lines, aberration correction and the highest level of performance was selected over ease of maintenance.

Nice insight to what goes in to making a lens. Thanks.

charles lim yi yong
08-07-2013, 10:51 PM
Yep. We're making a big list that will be accessible for everybody everywhere. We just knocked out the most used and common stuff first. More primes certainly to come as well as zooms.

The Zeiss CZ 70-200 T2.9 covers Dragon at 6K without breaking a sweat. The 28-80 CZ T2.9 does as well. The upcoming ultra wide CZ zoom will cover too.

The Leica M Noctilux 50mm will also cover Dragon at 6K. I don't know if it still rings true for Dragon, but there is a certain issue about the rear element of certain wide M mount lenses protruding too far back into the camera too far that may damage the lens or camera itself. This may or may not be resolved. I'll ask. It'd still refrain from going too wide with M mounts due to their optical design.

Optimos are high up on the list to test out. I have rough numbers, but it is much better to put the lenses on Dragon to find out format coverage.


Actually in my humble opinion, I feel that this might be the next game changer. Lens design for 'EVIL' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirrorless_interchangeable-lens_camera) cameras. RED Epic by definitional falls into that class. However, I am puzzled by RED's sensor housing which limits close flange distance, to a conventional distance. What is the reason for this?

I have set of leica m . 35mm summarit 2.4 lecia 50mm summilux 1.4 asph 100mm summicron 2 apo. Wished I could stick the whole Lecia M summilux to the RED.

KETCH ROSSi
08-07-2013, 11:35 PM
What about the Summicron Cs?


Have not tested them yet Will, but that might change in my next trip to Leica Germany, if there is a prototype to use, either way I would have more detail info in their regards upon my return from that trip no doubt.

David Pienaar
08-11-2013, 12:51 PM
Do the Cooke S4 Minis cover the 6k dragon?

I have a set and was told by Cooke that they are all good up to 33,5mm diagonal coverage.

holding thumbs that they all cover.

Nicolas Brockt
08-13-2013, 04:27 AM
Same question about the Mini Cooke S4, and of course more interesting concerning the Cooke 5i. In the beginning there was his rumor that not every focal length covered the 5K MX. Any experiences here?

Will Keir
08-13-2013, 11:37 AM
Leica should sponsor you with a test set.


Have not tested them yet Will, but that might change in my next trip to Leica Germany, if there is a prototype to use, either way I would have more detail info in their regards upon my return from that trip no doubt.

KETCH ROSSi
08-13-2013, 02:23 PM
Leica should sponsor you with a test set.


You tell them Will... ;)

Phil Holland
08-13-2013, 05:59 PM
Same question about the Mini Cooke S4, and of course more interesting concerning the Cooke 5i. In the beginning there was his rumor that not every focal length covered the 5K MX. Any experiences here?

Next time I have a Dragon around I'll get the coverage info for the Cooke Mini S4s for sure. The new Sony's too and I've had a request for spherical Kowas. I can do these tests anywhere just need my tiny glowing box with me and a Dragon. K35s will be in there as well.

Mike Finegan
08-21-2013, 08:34 AM
Any feedback on canon L series and cinema lenses?
ff on l series should cover fine but are they sharp enough to resolve 6K
Thx

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-21-2013, 03:28 PM
Okay. I'm going to add some additional thoughts here. Some things that we've known for some time regarding lenses really.

Most cinema lenses have been designed with the S35 specification in mind. This is important to acknowledge as there is performance fall off often beyond that spec. However, it's not exactly that simple.

AMEN. Thank you for saying that. I have to make this point very often when I am assisting on a show that is using older lenses at 5k. They cover, but there is some nasty nasty in the corners.... However, on the same subject, the Cooke Mini-s4/i's have an image circle that was spec'd by the manufacturer as 33.54mm versus the typical S4's and 5/i's which are listed as 30mm. They do have greater image circle coverage and I think are deserving of inclusion on your list, which is a wonderful venture on your part and I'd like to thank you for it!

That said, I would love it if you added these to your list because if shooting 6k, the Mini-S4/i's are truly your best bet for Cooke lenses on a 6k Dragon.
Point is, they are wonderful little lenses and I think,. not yet tested though, that every single one will cover 6k. I mean, the unintended image circle of the Mini's that would be seen should be less than 1mm.

I own a 7 set (18-135) and would be happy to donate them to you for as long as you'd like to do a proper and careful examination and test. They will cover better than S4's and I think it should be well documented. If I could get my hands on a dragon, I'd have done it by now!

Thanks Phil!

I could also give you a fuji 19-90 cabrio, but it's image circle is much smaller than the Cooke Mini's, despite being larger than most cinema lenses, since it covers Epic 5k very well. Chances are it performs only at 5.5k on most of the widest lengths. Testing will come in due time.

Phil Holland
08-21-2013, 03:38 PM
Yep and I think the Cookes will do just fine at 6K for the most part. They are on my list the next time I have a Dragon in my hands. Don't know when that's gonna be and hopefully some footage will come out of the next bit of testing with the fire breather. Kinda want to show off the DR and resolution from both a REDCODE RAW and graded/delivery perspective. We'll see. I'll ping Jarred.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-21-2013, 04:00 PM
Well just know you have a set from me next time you do a test.

Also, this should be a sticky in the 'lenses' section as well. It's too informative and well done to not be.

Dave Summers
09-02-2013, 06:06 AM
Hey Phil,
So my BIG question is gonna be if you guys have tested DRAGON with the 'RED PRO ZOOM 18-85' ???

Seeing as it's the only lens I own, I'm dying to know how it and the dragon will play together:grouphug:

Mike Nagel
09-09-2013, 06:10 PM
Phil,

what frame size did you use for the S35 crop factor calculation ? 24.89mm x 18.66mm ?

- M

Troy Bakewell
09-09-2013, 06:50 PM
+1 on the new Sony's Phil.

Thanks.

Phil Holland
09-09-2013, 08:26 PM
Phil,

what frame size did you use for the S35 crop factor calculation ? 24.89mm x 18.66mm ?

- M

I think I'm going to update my crop factor stuff a bit to reflect what's going on within a 3-perf Super 35mm frame. I feel mostly because we don't necessary work in a 4:3 world any more that there's no real benefit to using that extra height when dealing with common motion picture aspect ratios.

It holds a bit of relevance in anamorphic of course, but the new height of Dragon nearly gets there, so again, not a huge deal.

Phil Holland
09-10-2013, 01:37 AM
Also, a relevant graphic I made some time ago showing S35 3-perf size relative to Dragon:

http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/redDragonGraphics/phfx_redDragon_DragonAndFilmFormats.png

Mike Nagel
09-10-2013, 01:51 AM
I think I'm going to update my crop factor stuff a bit to reflect what's going on within a 3-perf Super 35mm frame. I feel mostly because we don't necessary work in a 4:3 world any more that there's no real benefit to using that extra height when dealing with common motion picture aspect ratios.

It holds a bit of relevance in anamorphic of course, but the new height of Dragon nearly gets there, so again, not a huge deal.

Phil,

thanks.

Reason I asked was b/c I got slightly different numbers with the S35 frame - the 35 FF numbers matched...

crop @ 6K (6144 h w/ 5 micron pixel pitch) vs. S35 4-perf (24.89mm x 18.66mm): 0.81 (rounded to 2 dec)
crop @ 6K (6144 h w/ 5 micron pixel pitch) vs. S35 3-perf (21.95mm x 13.9mm): 0.71 (rounded to 2 dec)

wasn't sure whether some of my data was off (S35 image area etc)...

Thanks for all of the graphics ! Really helpful !

- M

Phil Holland
09-10-2013, 02:28 AM
Phil,

thanks.

Reason I asked was b/c I got slightly different numbers with the S35 frame - the 35 FF numbers matched...

crop @ 6K (6144 h w/ 5 micron pixel pitch) vs. S35 4-perf (24.89mm x 18.66mm): 0.81 (rounded to 2 dec)
crop @ 6K (6144 h w/ 5 micron pixel pitch) vs. S35 3-perf (21.95mm x 13.9mm): 0.71 (rounded to 2 dec)

wasn't sure whether some of my data was off (S35 image area etc)...

Thanks for all of the graphics ! Really helpful !

- M

Interesting. It's not exactly 5 microns from my numbers, but based on the physical sensor size used I calculate 3-perf landing at .75 with a diagonal of 26mm.

Dragon's sensor is: 30.7x15.8mm.

Either way we're alarmingly close depending on how you dice it. I'll add the .75 number up for the time being on 3-perf.

Mike Nagel
09-10-2013, 03:05 AM
Dragon's sensor is: 30.7x15.8mm.


I read somewhere that it was a dead even 5 micron pitch, but that could be incorrect. 6144 * 0.005 = 30.72mm so I wasn't sure if they rounded the press release numbers (30.7x15.8) to just one dec...

30.7 / 6144 = 0.0049
15.8 / 3160 = 0.0050

in any case, when you end up with a .75 crop factor of Dragon's active image area with a width of 30.7mm, then the width of the active image area of the S35 3-perf you used is 23.025mm... (?)

unless Dragon's maximum pixel array of 6144 x 3160 is not being used over the entire physical sensor area of 30.7x15.8mm ? Do we know Dragon's maximum active image area ?

Phil Holland
09-10-2013, 03:34 AM
I'm going off numbers I've been told.

I'd have to see your algorithm, but it sounds like we have a variance between our two methods perhaps? Sounds like you may be calculating the diagonal differently.

It's also an interesting discussion because the world I come from we use the whole negative to capture, which potentially could be a width of 24.9mm versus what standard 3-perf is, but in this case I used 21.95x13.9mm.

Mike Nagel
09-10-2013, 04:15 AM
yeah, I think we use different methods.

I simply compare the width of the active image area. I assume you compare the diagonals of the active image area ?

That concept to me only makes sense if the aspect ratios match (of the image areas to be compared). I might be misunderstanding the general concept here ;-)

Naturally, the active image area of a digital sensor depends on the resolution preset you are using, but there is none that matches the aspect ratio of 35 FF (AR: 1.5), S35 3-perf (AR: 1.58) or S35 4-perf (AR: 1.33). Not sure if comparing diagonals makes sense in order to calculate the crop factor when the aspect ratios differ (?)

In your calculations on page 1 for CF @ 6K compared to 35 FF, you ended up with a CF of 1.17, which matches my approach of simply comparing the widths:

36mm (width of 35 FF) / 30.7mm (width of Dragon @ 6K) = 1.17

When applying the same concept to the S35 frames (3-perf | 4-perf) I came up with the numbers I posted above (0.71 | 0.81)...

Btw, not that it means anything, but on red.com it appears they are using the same approach: http://www.red.com/tools/crop-factor

Phil Holland
09-10-2013, 04:38 AM
Yep. That's the rub. Traditionally it's calculated diagonally more to keep the diagonal in mind, however, I do agree that the width is "all that really matters". I could just change the logic across the board to reflect that.

Phil Holland
09-10-2013, 03:58 PM
John Marchant, who has one of the first Dragon cameras out in the wild, has just shared his notes on Cooke Mini S4i coverage.

Added notes to the first post.

Thanks John!

John Marchant
09-10-2013, 04:03 PM
:)

I'll be testing more glass soon, taking up a kind offer from Tom @ Video Europe, who have a wide selection on hand. Will keep everyone posted.

Roger Viloria
09-10-2013, 04:45 PM
Thanks Phil, this is great.

Antoine Fabi
09-10-2013, 07:08 PM
John Marchant, who has one of the first Dragon cameras out in the wild, has just shared his notes on Cooke Mini S4i coverage.

Thanks John!

Phil,

where did John shared his notes on Mini S4i ?

Thanks

Antoine

Phil Holland
09-10-2013, 07:09 PM
Phil,

where did John shared his notes on Mini S4i ?

Thanks

Antoine

He PM'd me a bit ago. I literally copy and pasted his notes.

Antoine Fabi
09-10-2013, 08:28 PM
...and John said that the little Cooke's were OK with 6k?

If so, it is fantastic!

Thanks

Antoine

Phil Holland
09-10-2013, 08:59 PM
...and John said that the little Cooke's were OK with 6k?


Check out the first post in this thread for his info.

Antoine Fabi
09-11-2013, 04:21 AM
Thanks Phil !

Jose Jimenez
09-13-2013, 08:21 AM
Quick question as I am in que for a Red Dragon package and would like to know what would a few good lenses to start with. I am a student so, so advice would be incredibly helpful. I think after the camera body+accessories from red I will have about 10k for lenses. I would like to get as many lenses as I can.

I plan to shoot shorts, indie features ( low budget) and some indie music videos.

Troy Bakewell
09-18-2013, 02:52 AM
Super interested in the new Sony's. Anyone who can test and post please do. It would be greatly appreciated.

Erik Lee
09-25-2013, 07:27 PM
Does anyone have any early suggestions for a wide prime that covers all of Dragon's 6k without any issues? Something between 12mm-16mm. Looks like the Master & Ultra primes have issues, but I love their quality.

Chad Lancaster
09-25-2013, 07:50 PM
Does anyone have any early suggestions for a wide prime that covers all of Dragon's 6k without any issues? Something between 12mm-16mm. Looks like the Master & Ultra primes have issues, but I love their quality.

looks like its gonna have to be still full frame 24x36 lenses to cover full 6k at 12-16mm

Erik Lee
09-25-2013, 07:58 PM
looks like its gonna have to be still full frame 24x36 lenses to cover full 6k at 12-16mm

Thanks Chad, perhaps I'll go with CP.2s for everything.

Lee Saxon
09-30-2013, 09:04 PM
Anyone know if the Panchro/i have the same coverage as the S4/i?

Are the "mini-S4/i" just renamed Panchro/i or are there differences?

Neil Dearman
09-30-2013, 09:06 PM
what about 17-50 RED Zoom PL lens? does that cover the 50mm part?

Nick Morrison
09-30-2013, 09:17 PM
what about 17-50 RED Zoom PL lens? does that cover the 50mm part?

Id be very surprised if that Zoom didn't cover by 50mm, as that's a reasonably long focal length. Fingers crossed!

Will Keir
10-02-2013, 06:31 PM
We are going to have to create a zoom test for Dragon coverage soon guys...

Chad Lancaster
10-02-2013, 06:51 PM
We are going to have to create a zoom test for Dragon coverage soon guys...

Thanks looking forward to that!

Erik Lee
10-14-2013, 08:44 PM
Anything on the new Angenieux or Fujinon zooms (regarding covering all of the 6k formats) ?

Alvise Tedesco
10-27-2013, 04:10 AM
Anything on the new Angenieux or Fujinon zooms (regarding covering all of the 6k formats) ?

+ 1

And many many thanks, Phil, for this and all of the others good threads you share

Saba mazloum
11-01-2013, 07:54 PM
Any info about anamorphic lens coverage ?

thanks

Phil Holland
11-01-2013, 09:34 PM
Thanks Alvise.


Any info about anamorphic lens coverage ?

All Super 35mm Anamorphic lenses work "as intended" on Dragon. They are well within the coverage range. If you want to experiment and use more of the sensor for crazier aspect ratios, each lens would be different.

Zeb B
11-03-2013, 06:06 AM
Angenieux glass? 16-42 and 30-80DP

PatrickFaith
11-09-2013, 04:19 PM
Do all the extenders cover dragon 6k? (I.e. 2x extenders)

Phil Holland
11-09-2013, 08:03 PM
Do all the extenders cover dragon 6k? (I.e. 2x extenders)

I don't know if "all" of them do. But most 1.4x and 2x S35 designed should work just fine. This also includes the 1.2x device that is meant to assist with getting Academy zooms to cover Dragon full 6K. All of the teleconverters should provide similar gains in terms of the projected image of course at the cost of light loss.

Troy Bakewell
11-20-2013, 12:21 PM
Anyone test the new Sony's yet? Very interested to know if they cover 6k.

Thanks.

steve green
11-20-2013, 03:41 PM
Phil,
I'm looking to buy a good hand held zoom and naturally the 15-40 Optimo is at the top of the list. But what do you know about the Zeiss 15.5-45? 6K HD coverage? Optics? Weight for possible Movi use? Love to hear your expert thoughts…..
Thanks as always, love your posts.
Steve

Phil Holland
11-20-2013, 04:26 PM
Phil,
I'm looking to buy a good hand held zoom and naturally the 15-40 Optimo is at the top of the list. But what do you know about the Zeiss 15.5-45? 6K HD coverage? Optics? Weight for possible Movi use? Love to hear your expert thoughts…..
Thanks as always, love your posts.
Steve

I've got very little experience with the Zeiss LWZ.2 15.5-45mm T2.6, but once I get my Dragon or the next time I have one for a prolonged length of time I can add it to the list to check. Zeiss has a new CZ 15-30 mm T2.9 for nearly the same price coming out and that will cover 6K Full no problem. Although it's 1.3 lbs heavier. If I had to choose between the two today I'd get the CZ when it's released personally.

Sony primes are on that list as well as a whole lot of zooms, like something around 20 of them. Leica Summicron-C should happen pretty soon. Real curious to put the Canon zooms up on Dragon.

Phil Holland
11-20-2013, 04:34 PM
I should add I try to space out my time when I bug Red to do tests. They have a great deal on their plate and I have a feeling the next few weeks are going to be real busy with certain items and holidays approaching.

But yes, here's a short list of what's coming up:

Leica Summicron-C
Xenon FF-Primes
Cooke Mini S4/i
Cooke 5/i
Sony Cine Alta
Elite Optics

And about 20 zoom lenses.

steve green
11-20-2013, 09:24 PM
I've got very little experience with the Zeiss LWZ.2 15.5-45mm T2.6, but once I get my Dragon or the next time I have one for a prolonged length of time I can add it to the list to check. Zeiss has a new CZ 15-30 mm T2.9 for nearly the same price coming out and that will cover 6K Full no problem. Although it's 1.3 lbs heavier. If I had to choose between the two today I'd get the CZ when it's released personally.

Sony primes are on that list as well as a whole lot of zooms, like something around 20 of them. Leica Summicron-C should happen pretty soon. Real curious to put the Canon zooms up on Dragon.


Does the 15-40 Optimo cover 6K HD?

Richard Mills
11-25-2013, 10:30 AM
Hi Steve

The 15-40 covers 6K from 17mm, 5-5K across the full range

Richard Mills - ONSIGHT Cameras and Post, London

KETCH ROSSi
11-25-2013, 02:38 PM
I should add I try to space out my time when I bug Red to do tests. They have a great deal on their plate and I have a feeling the next few weeks are going to be real busy with certain items and holidays approaching.

But yes, here's a short list of what's coming up:

Leica Summicron-C
Xenon FF-Primes
Cooke Mini S4/i
Cooke 5/i
Sony Cine Alta
Elite Optics

And about 20 zoom lenses.

I might be able to help with the Summicron-C and the Xenons (this last ones thanks to you)... ;)

steve green
11-25-2013, 02:57 PM
Hi Steve

The 15-40 covers 6K from 17mm, 5-5K across the full range

Richard Mills - ONSIGHT Cameras and Post, London

Richard,
I'm looking for 6KHD not FF, will this allow it to clear all the way to 15mm?

Per von Koch
11-26-2013, 12:42 PM
Hi Phil!
Any anamorphic lenses up for test? Sorry if already posted. I have not gone through the entire thread... :(

Phil Holland
11-26-2013, 12:50 PM
Hi Phil!
Any anamorphic lenses up for test? Sorry if already posted. I have not gone through the entire thread... :(

Anamorphic lenses work "as intended" with the anamorphic modes on Dragon. Interesting to note, anamorphic is now available in all of the formats if you'd like to get creative or simply use the standard 1.22:1 aspect ratio with the 2X squeeze.

The first shoot Christopher Probst did back in June with Dragon utilized Kowa Anamophic lenses and it looked great. I haven't tested anything anamorphic since then, but there won't be coverage issues with them. In fact they work more "proper" due to the additional sensor height even.

Phil Holland
12-10-2013, 10:00 PM
Added: Leica Summicron-C Coverage.

Preliminary notes: They all cover 6K FF on Dragon. More details soon.

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicSpike/bigs/_MG_0338.jpg (http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicSpike/bigs/_MG_0338.jpg)


Personal Note: Somehow in 2013 I used and looked at every cinema prime lens available during this calendar year and some that won't be out for some time. Didn't really set out to do this, but it's a fascinating thing for me personally. A bunch of zooms too, but not all of them. Not yet. Just crazy to look back at it. Favorites, nightmares, and workhorses. Lots and lots of notes.

Will Keir
12-13-2013, 11:42 PM
Did they start shipping the Summicron Cs?


I should add I try to space out my time when I bug Red to do tests. They have a great deal on their plate and I have a feeling the next few weeks are going to be real busy with certain items and holidays approaching.

But yes, here's a short list of what's coming up:

Leica Summicron-C
Xenon FF-Primes
Cooke Mini S4/i
Cooke 5/i
Sony Cine Alta
Elite Optics

And about 20 zoom lenses.

Those look beautiful. Perfect size. Where did this set come from?


Added: Leica Summicron-C Coverage.

Preliminary notes: They all cover 6K FF on Dragon. More details soon.

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicSpike/bigs/_MG_0338.jpg (http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicSpike/bigs/_MG_0338.jpg)


Personal Note: Somehow in 2013 I used and looked at every cinema prime lens available during this calendar year and some that won't be out for some time. Didn't really set out to do this, but it's a fascinating thing for me personally. A bunch of zooms too, but not all of them. Not yet. Just crazy to look back at it. Favorites, nightmares, and workhorses. Lots and lots of notes.

Ketch,

Have you tested the Summicron C Primes?


I might be able to help with the Summicron-C and the Xenons (this last ones thanks to you)... ;)

KETCH ROSSi
12-13-2013, 11:48 PM
Added: Leica Summicron-C Coverage.

Preliminary notes: They all cover 6K FF on Dragon. More details soon.



And that is nice to hear of course... ;)



Did they start shipping the Summicron Cs?

If they didn't they are about to go out, as few sets are to go out this month, and Leica did get it together with the Summicron's as even if you were to order a set now thru Seth at Leica LA store, they could ship as early as first Quarter 2014!!

Also the additional Focal are to become available in the first half of 2014, and that is truly amazing to have a complete set from 18mm to 135mm by middle of next year, great job on this one Leica, and the best part is that you can order direct, and you don't have to go thru Band Pro any more, and that is truly refreshing good news, giving the very POOR job Band Pro did with the Summilux pre-orders!!

Will Keir
12-13-2013, 11:51 PM
I'm on that preorder list and have heard nothing. I will be speaking with Band Pro tomorrow.

Who is the rep in LA to go direct through? Would you pass their info please?


best part is that you can order direct, and you don't have to go thru Band Pro any more, and that is truly refreshing good news, giving the very POOR job Band Pro did with the Summilux pre-orders!!

Will Keir
12-14-2013, 10:55 PM
$100,800 is the price from bandpro. Seemed like these were going to be half the price of Summilux C primes at one point? Any idea how many in the set and focal lengths?

Same as the set you tested? I see you say ALL lenses just not quite sure if it's 5-6 or 8?

Billy Jim
12-15-2013, 12:12 AM
Leica Summicron-C update:
http://www.fdtimes.com/2013/12/06/leica-summicron-c-lenses-arrive/

KETCH ROSSi
12-15-2013, 12:25 AM
I'm on that preorder list and have heard nothing. I will be speaking with Band Pro tomorrow.

Who is the rep in LA to go direct through? Would you pass their info please?


As I said Will, I'll never do busies with Band Pro again so I have no idea what is going on at their side... Just go talk to Seth Emmons at the LA Leica Store at 8783 Beverly BLVD., behind the Beverly Center... And tell him I said hi... ;)

Oh and of course they give you a blown up price, as the first set with 18, 25, 35, 50, 75 & 100mm is priced by Leica at $97,500

Saurabh Pandey
12-15-2013, 12:29 AM
Hey Phil,

Thank you for this info, Great Job!

Nick Morrison
12-15-2013, 01:23 AM
As I said Will, I'll never do busies with Band Pro again so I have no idea what is going on at their side... Just go talk to Seth Emmons at the LA Leica Store at 8783 Beverly BLVD., behind the Beverly Center... And tell him I said hi... ;)

Oh and of course they give you a blown up price, as the first set with 18, 25, 35, 50, 75 & 100mm is priced by Leica at $97,500

Ketch what's the front diameter of these lenses? 80mm? They look pretty small!

Phil Holland
12-15-2013, 01:45 AM
Hey Phil,

Thank you for this info, Great Job!

Cheers Saurabh. I'll have the rest of the coverage likely before the year is out.



Ketch what's the front diameter of these lenses? 80mm? They look pretty small!

Not Ketch, but I have an answer and used these recently. The Leica Summicron-C primes are 95mm front diameter. Same as the Leica Summilux-C primes. That's pretty much where a lot of the similarity between the two sets lands. Everything else is pretty different. Iris, glass, character, speed, etc.

The only one that's bigger than 95mm between the two sets is the 135mm Summilux-C because she's a massive piece of glass.

http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_leicaSummiluxC135mm.jpg

KETCH ROSSi
12-15-2013, 01:51 AM
While indeed a massive piece of glass by also al means of comparisons, I am sure I talk for the two of us when I say it's also a fantastic piece of glass, and focal, my only wish is that a 180mm will join th families... ;)

Dan Wang
12-18-2013, 02:49 PM
I don't know if this was mentioned earlier. I know that the RPP 25mm doesn't cover 6K FF, but will it cover 6K WS?

Phil Holland
12-18-2013, 02:53 PM
I don't know if this was mentioned earlier. I know that the RPP 25mm doesn't cover 6K FF, but will it cover 6K WS?

Nope. Not cleanly. 6K HD you "might" be fine. 5.5K you're in the clear.

Haven't slept much since my Dragon has arrived, but I'm trying to knock off some of the priority lens tests before this year is out (have a feeling I'm gonna be busy). We'll have more info on Friday and likely Monday for some other glass. Already started testing.

Trevor Meier
12-18-2013, 10:18 PM
Phil, man—just gotta say, thanks so much for how much you contribute around here. It's a real gift to the rest of us schmucks. You're awesome. Thanks for being so generous with your time and what you're learning along the way.

Phil Holland
12-19-2013, 11:28 PM
Thank you Trevor. It's been an interesting adventure :)

Today I took a closer look at the Leica Summicron-C Primes. All of them. Additionally I was itching to get a look at what Leica M series still lenses would be compatible now that the sensor box/bushing area has been redesigned on Dragon. When I first saw that new design a bit ago I knew immediately more M glass would fit in.

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicDragon_Kozmo/bigs/phfx_leicaMandSC.jpg (http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicDragon_Kozmo/bigs/phfx_leicaMandSC.jpg)

The official word on the Leica Summicron-C primes. All of them cover Dragon 6K FF cleanly. Good to go.

Now the Leica M series lenses are a bit interesting. Truthfully they were designed for a different type of imaging plane/technology. However, optically most of them look fantastic on Dragon. The new Dragon sensor box/bushing area allows for the lenses as wide as the Summilux-M 24mm f/1.4 and 35mm f/1.4 to be attached. Which is new. And they look great! Everything more telephoto from there looks good too.

A lens to look out for would be the Summilux-M 21mm f/1.4. The retrofocus design isn't ideal and you'll notice a hit in image quality. Again, this glass wasn't designed for this system. However, 24mm and up you have an extremely compact system. (I'm looking at you octocopter and lightweight gimbal peeps)

Big thanks to Seth over at Leica for allowing me to really look at the glass for a long time today. The Summicron-C Primes are nice and sharp wide open and look consistent across the set in terms of look. A slight bit of an octagonal pattern is revealed around T5.6 on the lenses, T2-T4 the out of focus bokeh renders nice and round.


That's it for this evening. More lens coverage tomorrow night or Saturday depending on when we finish.

Tom Lowe
12-19-2013, 11:32 PM
Phil sorry if this has been covered, what about Canon 30-300?

Phil Holland
12-20-2013, 12:12 AM
Phil sorry if this has been covered, what about Canon 30-300?

It hasn't been covered just yet, but I did have one on the Dragon earlier this week and I'll have the hard detailed info likely tomorrow evening.


I should mention there's a few things I'm looking for when testing general coverage:

- Port Holing - This is a hard vignette that is a physical issue and can't be corrected unless you crop in or do a VFX fix.
- Vignetting - Vignetting can range from severe to mild and often can be fixed somewhat painlessly in post, although it could create unwanted noise. Vignetting often changes form when adjusting the aperture. It can either improve or worsen the effect. In some circumstance it could create a porthole effect when stopped down.
- Uneven Vignette Illumination - This is different from field illumination. Essentially where light fall-off naturally vignettes sometimes the edge of the lens tube create a highlight, which creates an uneven vignette towards the corners and boarders of an image. This is not something that is easily fixed via post, although possible. In mild cases under typical shooting conditions you may not even see it. When UVI occurs harshly it does suck though.

There's a few other things that I make notes on, but these are the big ones that essentially tells you if the lens is usable or not and at what formats.

One thing that is important to make note of, especially with lenses designed for smaller formats is flare control. Often light bouncing around the lens tube or other bits becomes visible if you are using a lens in an "out of spec" way. Flags and Matte Boxes help with this tremendously with lenses that exhibit this behavior. However, if you are going for a flashlight into the lens sort of flare you'll sometimes see a "reverse vignette" and actually get highlights in the corners. I advise to experiment and test if you doing anything like that with S35 glass.

Phil Holland
12-20-2013, 10:09 PM
Big update today. Likely the last big lens coverage test with Epic Dragon in 2013.

Huge thanks go to Matthew Duclos for facilitating this test (and buying me lunch!).

Today we have coverage information on zoom lenses, here's a few that were tested:

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicDragon_Kozmo/images/phfx_DragonZoomCoverageWithDuclosLenses.jpg (http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicDragon_Kozmo/images/phfx_DragonZoomCoverageWithDuclosLenses.jpg)

And here's a list of zoom lenses tested with new coverage information on the first post.

Angenieux Optimo 19.5-94mm T2.6
Angenieux Optimo DP 16-42mm T2.8
Angenieux Optimo DP 30-80mm T2.8
Angenieux Optimo 15-40mm T2.6
Angenieux Optimo 28-76mm T2.6
Angenieux 45-120mm T2.8
Angenieux Optimo 24-290mm T2.8
Angenieux Optimo 28-340mm T2.9
Angenieux 25-250mm HR T3.5
Arri Fujinon Alura 15.5-45mm T2.8
Arri Fujinon Alura 30-80mm T2.8
Arri Fujinon Alura 18-80mm T2.6
Canon CN-E 14.5-60mm T2.6
Canon CN-E 15.5-47mm T2.8
Canon CN-E 30-105mm T2.8
Canon 30-300mm T2.95-3.7
Fujinon Cabrio 19-90mm T2.9
Focus Optics RUBY 14-24mm T2.8
Zeiss CZ 15-30mm T2.9 (not released until April 2014)
Zeiss CZ 28-80mm T2.9
Zeiss CZ 70-200mm T2.9



The only big shocker out of this bunch is the Alura 30-80mm, which covers 6K FF and does pretty well in terms of resolving power on the wide side. Lenses like the Zeiss Compact Zooms or lenses using rehoused FF35 glass aren't big shockers in covering 6K FF.

I might have a couple sets of primes to test next week and there's a few more zooms around I can hit, but it will likely be 2014 the next time I look into more Epic Dragon lens coverage tests.

CJ Roy
12-20-2013, 10:11 PM
Awesome, thanks Phil

Timur Civan
12-20-2013, 10:34 PM
Good to know, thank you phil. :)

I'm ok with 5.5K so my cabrio is still a go!

Nick Morrison
12-20-2013, 11:09 PM
Good to know, thank you phil. :)

I'm ok with 5.5K so my cabrio is still a go!

I think you're totally covered at 6K HD though. Nicely done!

Jarred Land
12-20-2013, 11:12 PM
Phil... you are a hero.

Phil Holland
12-20-2013, 11:16 PM
Phil... you are a hero.

You guys work hard. I work hard. Lets keep that up :)

Evin Grant
12-20-2013, 11:37 PM
Any chance the 21mm 2.8 ASPH would work with the Dragon? I can't wait to try my 35, 50 & 90 Crons ;)

Phil Holland
12-20-2013, 11:50 PM
Any chance the 21mm 2.8 ASPH would work with the Dragon? I can't wait to try my 35, 50 & 90 Crons ;)

It will fit now, which is the good news. Optically though it may not perform as desired, it's just made and optimized for a whole different system. Best to test it out.

Also, all your Angenieux glass fits snuggly in the circular cut out in the sensor box/bushing area (which is why I think Red actually designed this and the Leica M glass fitting is a bonus). But no Motion Mount for the Optimo DPs, they just protrude way too far to make that a reality.

CJ Roy
12-21-2013, 12:20 AM
Any idea how well the Fuji Premiere 18-85 covers?

Phil Holland
12-21-2013, 12:32 AM
Any idea how well the Fuji Premiere 18-85 covers?

I'll have an answer next week or next year :) Couldn't find a free one today.

Charles Bergquist
12-21-2013, 12:34 AM
How about that Duclous / Tokina 11-16mm 2.8? Vignettes a little at 11mm on Epic FF 5K...would be interested to know how well it does on Dragon throughout the range, it's one of my favorite lenses.

Phil Holland
12-21-2013, 12:45 AM
How about that Duclous / Tokina 11-16mm 2.8? Vignettes a little at 11mm on Epic FF 5K...would be interested to know how well it does on Dragon throughout the range, it's one of my favorite lenses.

I'll slap it on tomorrow. I know it will cover at 15 and 16mm, but it's gonna be a bit soft in the corners.

I did some test shots yesterday evening with a 14mm prime at 6K FF and it's freaky wide :)

Sanjin Jukic
12-21-2013, 07:37 AM
Thank you Trevor. It's been an interesting adventure :)

Today I took a closer look at the Leica Summicron-C Primes. All of them. Additionally I was itching to get a look at what Leica M series still lenses would be compatible now that the sensor box/bushing area has been redesigned on Dragon. When I first saw that new design a bit ago I knew immediately more M glass would fit in.

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicDragon_Kozmo/bigs/phfx_leicaMandSC.jpg (http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicDragon_Kozmo/bigs/phfx_leicaMandSC.jpg)

The official word on the Leica Summicron-C primes. All of them cover Dragon 6K FF cleanly. Good to go.

Now the Leica M series lenses are a bit interesting. Truthfully they were designed for a different type of imaging plane/technology. However, optically most of them look fantastic on Dragon. The new Dragon sensor box/bushing area allows for the lenses as wide as the Summilux-M 24mm f/1.4 and 35mm f/1.4 to be attached. Which is new. And they look great! Everything more telephoto from there looks good too.

A lens to look out for would be the Summilux-M 21mm f/1.4. The retrofocus design isn't ideal and you'll notice a hit in image quality. Again, this glass wasn't designed for this system. However, 24mm and up you have an extremely compact system. (I'm looking at you octocopter and lightweight gimbal peeps)

Big thanks to Seth over at Leica for allowing me to really look at the glass for a long time today. The Summicron-C Primes are nice and sharp wide open and look consistent across the set in terms of look. A slight bit of an octagonal pattern is revealed around T5.6 on the lenses, T2-T4 the out of focus bokeh renders nice and round.


That's it for this evening. More lens coverage tomorrow night or Saturday depending on when we finish.

Amazing news!!!!

Leica, Zeiss, Voigtlander rangefinder lenses till 24mm wide should cover Dragon 6K without so many issues I hope so.

What about Leica M 18mm f/3.4 ASPH that has amazing sun flare performance?

Will Keir
12-21-2013, 07:39 AM
Thank you Phil.

Timur Civan
12-21-2013, 08:08 AM
Duclos covers in 6kWS no problem.

Sulekh Suman
12-21-2013, 08:48 AM
Phil,

Great work with the lenses. It will be nice to see coverage information for Zeiss, Cooke, Hawk and Primo Anamorphics once 6K Ana is added to the build.

Thanks,
Sulekh

Phil Holland
12-21-2013, 09:09 AM
Phil,

Great work with the lenses. It will be nice to see coverage information for Zeiss, Cooke, Hawk and Primo Anamorphics once 6K Ana is added to the build.


They all cover and work "as intended" as the 1.22:1 2X 6K ANA mode is within coverage of these lenses.

Kemalettin Sert
12-21-2013, 06:32 PM
This might be stupid question have you tested 15mm Zeiss on Dragon?

PatrickFaith
12-21-2013, 08:08 PM
Thank you Trevor. It's been an interesting adventure :)
Today I took a closer look at the Leica Summicron-C Primes. All of them. Additionally I was itching to get a look at what Leica M series still lenses would be compatible now that the sensor box/bushing area has been redesigned on Dragon. When I first saw that new design a bit ago I knew immediately more M glass would fit in ….

Now the Leica M series lenses are a bit interesting. Truthfully they were designed for a different type of imaging plane/technology. However, optically most of them look fantastic on Dragon. The new Dragon sensor box/bushing area allows for the lenses as wide as the Summilux-M 24mm f/1.4 and 35mm f/1.4 to be attached. Which is new. And they look great! Everything more telephoto from there looks good too.

A lens to look out for would be the Summilux-M 21mm f/1.4. The retrofocus design isn't ideal and you'll notice a hit in image quality. Again, this glass wasn't designed for this system. However, 24mm and up you have an extremely compact system. (I'm looking at you octocopter and lightweight gimbal peeps)

Man this is great news, I love the M glass but didn't go down that path because the wide lenses wouldn't fit. I didn't see it announced that the sensor box was redesigned to use the wide Leica glass, man that is really great news which needs to be highlighted ( it's all these subtle changes to the dragon that really impresses me). Phil, as always, I appreciate the work.

Jarred Land
12-21-2013, 08:23 PM
[QUOTE=PatrickFaith;1300804. I didn't see it announced that the sensor box was redesigned to use the wide Leica glass, man that is really great news which needs to be highlighted.[/QUOTE]

You are right... I probably should of announced that at some point. I love the Leica-M lenses... and it was one of those selfish personal changes that I forgot to mention. It also has the side benefit of fitting some of those longer rear angenieux and other zooms out there as well.

Tom Lowe
12-21-2013, 09:48 PM
How is Canon 30-300 at 6K HD?

Bryan Moore
12-21-2013, 10:07 PM
We had some vignetting but Im not sure if it was the lens or the Ball on the wescam. Will need to check.

Michael J Brennan
12-21-2013, 10:24 PM
+1 for fuji premier range.


Mike Brennan

Phil Holland
12-21-2013, 10:35 PM
You are right... I probably should of announced that at some point. I love the Leica-M lenses... and it was one of those selfish personal changes that I forgot to mention. It also has the side benefit of fitting some of those longer rear angenieux and other zooms out there as well.

Attaching some of those Angenieux beasts is the epitome of knowing fear! There's that brief moment of "is this thing going to fit?!" that is intense.



This might be stupid question have you tested 15mm Zeiss on Dragon?

Should cover and work as intended! Just shot with an old 14mm and it looks great and is extremely wide.



How is Canon 30-300 at 6K HD?

Here you go Tom:
http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_redEpicDragonCoverage_Canon30_300_at30.jpg
(http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_redEpicDragonCoverage_Canon30_300_at30.jpg)

Green is 5.5K HD with minor vignette that improves as the iris is closed. At 85mm your'e in the clear FF, I'd say around 65/75mm you'd be real safe at 6K HD.

Michael J Brennan
12-21-2013, 11:03 PM
Thanks Phil,

Specs on the new Angeniuex DP 25-250
"The lens has been designed with a complex focus group for minimal breathing and opens at T:3.5 from 25mm to 250mm constant. It fully covers the Epic M-X sensor and covers the Epic Dragon sensor on all formats below 6k plus the 6k HD format."


Assuming the DP 25-250 vignettes at 6k there are only six zooms on this list that are totally vignette free throughout their zoom and aperture range at 6K FF?
The only long zoom vignette free is the Angeniuex 28-340?



Mike Brennan
DP
Melbourne

Tom Lowe
12-22-2013, 12:47 AM
is there any Dragon information on Angie 28-240?

http://www.angenieux.com/zoom-lenses/cinema-portfolio/optimo-28-340.htm

Sanjin Jukic
12-22-2013, 01:55 AM
Angenieux 28-240mm zoom with its image coverage for S35+ of 31.4mm diagonal means is NOT able to cover Dragon's 6K image circle of 34.52mm (diagonal).

But it will work fine with 5.5K resolution size that is actually Epic's X & Scarlet's X image circle of 31.4mm (diagonal).

Hope this helps.

Troy Bakewell
12-22-2013, 02:10 AM
Thanks Phil for all of your work.

Any news on the new set of the Sony primes?

:)

Michael Lindsay
12-22-2013, 05:33 AM
Thank you Phil

Your contributions are really fantastic for this forum!

Michael

Tom Lowe
12-28-2013, 01:58 AM
Both the 12mm and 14mm MPs are usable on Dragon at 6K HD.


14mm MP at 6K HD

http://s22.postimg.org/7pj33v5td/MP14_on_Dragon.jpg

12mm MP at 6K HD

http://s22.postimg.org/5wg6fjkmp/12mm_MP_on_Dragon.jpg

Both lenses vignette at 6K WS and 6K full sensor, though the 12mm vignettes worse.

C.H.Haskell
12-28-2013, 08:34 AM
You are right... I probably should of announced that at some point. I love the Leica-M lenses... and it was one of those selfish personal changes that I forgot to mention. It also has the side benefit of fitting some of those longer rear angenieux and other zooms out there as well.



Sorry to Echo if this has already been mentioned, but the dragon will accept the wider M lenses now? Thats good news.

Phil Holland
12-28-2013, 09:59 AM
Sorry to Echo if this has already been mentioned, but the dragon will accept the wider M lenses now? Thats good news.

Yes. Check out the first post it's all in there. Optically speaking the Summilux-M 24mm f/1.4 looks good. The 21mm fits, but is a bit soft due to it's retrofocus design.

Nick Morrison
12-28-2013, 10:16 AM
Both the 12mm and 14mm MPs are usable on Dragon at 6K HD.


Wow. These lenses are beasts. Zeiss deserves major kudos for thinking WAY AHEAD. Considering a number of the new Leica C wides only cover 5.5k, that the MP's cover 6K HD from 12mm up is a real achievement.

Also, don't forget Ultraprimes cover Dragon from 16mm up (with slight vignette, per Phil).

Zeiss has been smart. Who else has a complete set of primes that cover Dragon so well?

Phil Holland
12-28-2013, 11:16 AM
Wow. These lenses are beasts. Zeiss deserves major kudos for thinking WAY AHEAD. Considering a number of the new Leica C wides only cover 5.5k, that the MP's cover 6K HD from 12mm up is a real achievement.

Also, don't forget Ultraprimes cover Dragon from 16mm up (with slight vignette, per Phil).

Zeiss has been smart. Who else has a complete set of primes that cover Dragon so well?

Depends on many factors. Most of my motion work gets delivered in 2.40:1, 1.85:1, or 1.78:1. All my glass covers when I look at it this way :) Only my 18mm and 25mm have any real issues at 6K FF.

Nick Morrison
12-28-2013, 11:22 AM
Depends on many factors. Most of my motion work gets delivered in 2.40:1, 1.85:1, or 1.78:1. All my glass covers when I look at it this way :) Only my 18mm and 25mm have any real issues at 6K FF.

Sounds like your Schneiders and the Leica C's may work ok then for 6K HD?

Phil Holland
12-28-2013, 11:31 AM
Sounds like your Schneiders and the Leica C's may work ok then for 6K HD?

The Leica Summicron-C primes cover 6K FF just fine, so anything under that is also good.

The Schneider Cine-Xenar III primes all work fine at 6K HD and 6K WS. 35 and up all good at 6K FF.

Nick Morrison
12-28-2013, 03:44 PM
The Leica Summicron-C primes cover 6K FF just fine, so anything under that is also good.

The Schneider Cine-Xenar III primes all work fine at 6K HD and 6K WS. 35 and up all good at 6K FF.

Question. Does the Zeiss Super Speeds work at 6K HD? (even the 18?)

Casey Green
01-12-2014, 12:31 PM
Sorry if I missed it in the thread, but has anyone tested RED Zooms with Dragon 6K?

17-50mm
18-50mm
18-85mm
50-150mm

CJ Roy
01-12-2014, 06:24 PM
Hey Phil- Didn't remember the exact number, but the Fuji 18-85 vignettes till about 40 on 6K.

Ross Isaacs
01-12-2014, 08:58 PM
Big update today. Likely the last big lens coverage test with Epic Dragon in 2013.

Huge thanks go to Matthew Duclos for facilitating this test (and buying me lunch!).

Today we have coverage information on zoom lenses, here's a few that were tested:

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicDragon_Kozmo/images/phfx_DragonZoomCoverageWithDuclosLenses.jpg (http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/redEpicDragon_Kozmo/images/phfx_DragonZoomCoverageWithDuclosLenses.jpg)

And here's a list of zoom lenses tested with new coverage information on the first post.

Angenieux Optimo 19.5-94mm T2.6
Angenieux Optimo DP 16-42mm T2.8
Angenieux Optimo DP 30-80mm T2.8
Angenieux Optimo 15-40mm T2.6
Angenieux Optimo 28-76mm T2.6
Angenieux 45-120mm T2.8
Angenieux Optimo 24-290mm T2.8
Angenieux Optimo 28-340mm T2.9
Angenieux 25-250mm HR T3.5
Arri Fujinon Alura 15.5-45mm T2.8
Arri Fujinon Alura 30-80mm T2.8
Arri Fujinon Alura 18-80mm T2.6
Canon CN-E 14.5-60mm T2.6
Canon CN-E 15.5-47mm T2.8
Canon CN-E 30-105mm T2.8
Canon 30-300mm T2.95-3.7
Fujinon Cabrio 19-90mm T2.9
Focus Optics RUBY 14-24mm T2.8
Zeiss CZ 15-30mm T2.9 (not released until April 2014)
Zeiss CZ 28-80mm T2.9
Zeiss CZ 70-200mm T2.9


The only big shocker out of this bunch is the Alura 30-80mm, which covers 6K FF and does pretty well in terms of resolving power on the wide side. Lenses like the Zeiss Compact Zooms or lenses using rehoused FF35 glass aren't big shockers in covering 6K FF.

I might have a couple sets of primes to test next week and there's a few more zooms around I can hit, but it will likely be 2014 the next time I look into more Epic Dragon lens coverage tests.
Hi Phil brilliant work mate. I am a bit unclear if the Angenieux Optimo DP 16-42mm T2.8 gets full coverage or are we waiting for your test results to be published here? Thanks for your efforts.

Phil Holland
01-12-2014, 09:07 PM
Question. Does the Zeiss Super Speeds work at 6K HD? (even the 18?)

It might. 6K HD wasn't in the build on the camera we tested months ago, but 5.5K was safe. I can test this lens again soon though.



Hey Phil- Didn't remember the exact number, but the Fuji 18-85 vignettes till about 40 on 6K.

Thank you CJ. That's very useful info.



Sorry if I missed it in the thread, but has anyone tested RED Zooms with Dragon 6K?

17-50mm
18-50mm
18-85mm
50-150mm

Oddly it seems what should have been the first zooms tested were not. My Dragon is out working at the moment, but when I get my camera back early next week I think I can track down all the Red Pro Zooms.

Casey Green
01-12-2014, 10:12 PM
Very good, thanks Phil!

T. Jordan
01-13-2014, 05:29 AM
Phil,

Amazing work you have achieved! Have any tests been ran for Nan's GL Standard speed prime set?
http://www.glcinemod.com/images/small/rehoused%20Standard%20Speed%20Prime%20Lens.jpg

Phil Holland
01-13-2014, 08:58 AM
Amazing work you have achieved! Have any tests been ran for Nan's GL Standard speed prime set?


Tom. Those are hard to come by out here in LA (though I hear Nan shipped a few demo units around of other lenses), but since these are based on FF35 Zeiss Contax Prime Lenses I would believe they all cover just fine. A good deal of the galss Nan rehouses if FF35 glass and should be okay at 6K FF with Epic Dragon. The 11-16mm will have problems on the wide end however.

KETCH ROSSi
01-13-2014, 09:10 AM
Wish I had known, I had the 50, 85 and 135mm, there but sold the 50 & 135 and just brought the 85mm to sale over to Barcelona, and yes, Nan does great work indeed.

I really wanted to keep them, but at the end I decided to pay more, lot more and get the Schneider Xenon, great lenses, even if only with 3 focal for now.

FYI, I believe that that picture shows the older version, this is the current version...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47486&d=1389617361