Inside the RED ONE

[Tony Lorentzen]

What do we know about the actual hardware that's inside the RED? There hasn't been much talk about it, actually. Has anyone taken their RED apart - anyone willing to post pictures? :w00t:

It is however pretty interesting (at least I think so) to know what's actually inside the camera (not that I'm going to take mine apart when I get it).

I'm guessing it's running the Unix-like OS called VxWorks from Wind River Systems (http://www.windriver.com) on some custom-built Sundance (http://www.sundance.com/) FPGA board.

My guess is based on the fact that RED (the company) is mentioned as being one of the biggest clients of Wind River's in their annual report for 2007.

Also - as far as I've seen the update builds provided for the camera includes a compressed file called "SundanceBootable.bin", which seems to be a Flash image... and VxWorks seems to work great on the Sundance boards according to various websites so it seems obvious.

Unfortunately none of this gives me any leads as to who might be producing the sensor :)

Anyone care to further speculate on this subject with me? :usd:

[jbeale]

If so, it's in good company- several space probes run VXWorks, including the rovers that are still running around on Mars. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VxWorks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VxWorks)

[Alexis Hanawalt]

I think it's using one of these (http://www.speaknspell.co.uk/speaknspell.html).

[John V]

It actually a small group of elves on a treadmill..;)

[Ed Blythe]

Jannard on the right, but they take it in turns.

[Warren Kommers]

hamster wheel

[Matthew Greene]

But... does anyone know where the wedge-in picture hardware really came from???

(anyone been here long enough and have the memory to get that?)

[chuckt]

What do we know about the actual hardware that's inside the RED? There hasn't been much talk about it, actually. Has anyone taken their RED apart - anyone willing to post pictures? :w00t:

It is however pretty interesting (at least I think so) to know what's actually inside the camera (not that I'm going to take mine apart when I get it).

I'm guessing it's running the Unix-like OS called VxWorks from Wind River Systems (http://www.windriver.com) on some custom-built Sundance (http://www.sundance.com/) FPGA board.

My guess is based on the fact that RED (the company) is mentioned as being one of the biggest clients of Wind River's in their annual report for 2007.

Also - as far as I've seen the update builds provided for the camera includes a compressed file called "SundanceBootable.bin", which seems to be a Flash image... and VxWorks seems to work great on the Sundance boards according to various websites so it seems obvious.

Unfortunately none of this gives me any leads as to who might be producing the sensor :)

Anyone care to further speculate on this subject with me? :usd:

Why do you care about technical details?
Like most fans, you are supposed to be simply amazed at a camera that can shoot 4k (Wow!), which is more than 2k(wow!), which is more than 1080 (wow!).

[Tony Lorentzen]

Why do you care about technical details?
Like most fans, you are supposed to be simply amazed at a camera that can shoot 4k (Wow!), which is more than 2k(wow!), which is more than 1080 (wow!).

I'm both simply amazed, but also a complete tech geek :biggrin:

But I bough (rather reserved) my camera because it's the ultimate camera for me as a DP.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I'm sure the RED competition already looked at all that.

[Gunleik Groven]

So you think they managed to sell to some with a bad attitude? :)

[Tony Lorentzen]

At least to someone with false intentions! However - the unique thing about RED is not so much the hardware; it's more the company, it's design philosophy and software. Sure - the mysterium sensor is special, but it's just a matter of time before someone shows something that's equally good - or better. The Japanese and Koreans have done it time and time again (and probably did the Mysterium).

[Dylan Reeve]

Here's the information I've shared previously about RED:


My suspicion is that it's not a CMOS chip at all, but a million really small monkeys with mini keyboards typing out what they see. I don't know, I've never taken a look though.

In response to the suggestion that the monkeys would only need 1s and 0s on their keyboards, I elaborated on that:


No, it's actually really really complex. It's hard to teach monkeys binary, so they each have to type out a description of what they see, and the really tricky bit (where RED's true power comes in) is that the camera firmware then decodes this MDIL (Monkey Descriptive Imaging Language) into psuedo-RAW data to make it appear that a traditional imaging device was used.

Here is an example of the MDIL for the section of frame covered by monkey 316,328:
itsabitredbutalsosortofblueandthereisakindofroundb itatthetop.itismostlywhite.bannana!

The reason the optical port was discontinued is that, as a side effect, the entire works of Shakespear (and, oddly, Barbara Cartland) are produced also, and they ended up being streamed out the port also. So you'd get images that looked great, plus a whole lot of literature (some great, some not so much) - it was all too much trouble.

Unfortunately the sensitivity of monkey-eyes leads to what has been known as 'black sun' - they get blinded by extreme luminosity and just kind of bash the keyboard, the MDIL to RAW conversion gets confused by that, and it becomes purply-pink.

This is not true inside information, more like educated speculation.

[Brent J. Craig]

Jim said somewhere that it has the processing power of 3 Macbooks!

I'm looking forward to people's warranties expiring so we can see some naked Red photos! The geek in me loves the fact that every time a new iPod or something comes out someone on the net tears it apart and puts pictures up. Why won't one of them buy a Red?

[Ed Blythe]

This is not true inside information, more like educated speculation.

Where'd you get yer schooling Dylan?

[William Robinette]

Why won't one of them buy a Red?

Because it's $17.5k and not $400. :detective2:

[Mark Thorpe]

Its kinda like asking the ingredients to Coca Cola......don't think RED's gona spill all the beans.

[Jim Hoffman]

I'd be willing to bet Sony, Panasonic etc Have bought or will by a RED and have their dissection fantasies fulfilled.

[Dylan Reeve]

Where'd you get yer schooling Dylan?

Crazy Monkey School!

[Bob England]

I'm guessing it's running the Unix-like OS called VxWorks from Wind River Systems (http://www.windriver.com) on some custom-built Sundance (http://www.sundance.com/) FPGA board.

That would put the RED ahead of the SI-2K (in OS as well as sensor) which reportedly runs an embedded version of Windows XP.

[Brent J. Craig]

That would put the RED ahead of the SI-2K (in OS as well as sensor) which reportedly runs an embedded version of Windows XP.

Please tell me you're joking?

i can just imaging explaining the Blue Screen of Death on set!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a8/Windows_XP_BSOD.png/180px-Windows_XP_BSOD.png

[Dylan Reeve]

I find it very very difficult to believe that the SI-2K runs Windows. It's really not suited to the purpose. Even Linux or FreeBSD wouldn't be ideal.

[NateWeaver]

I find it very very difficult to believe that the SI-2K runs Windows. It's really not suited to the purpose. Even Linux or FreeBSD wouldn't be ideal.

It does. I've seen it boot. I believe I even saw the XP logo...this was at NAB 2006. If I recall correctly they stated it was very stripped down.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I personally believe the RED sensor is/was military in origin.

But that's me.. I enjoy guessing!

Jay

[David Battistella]

I personally believe the RED sensor is/was military in origin.

But that's me.. I enjoy guessing!

Jay

Either that or it was developed by Mossad.

David

[Nick Gardner]

I would be interested to know if there are boards inside that can be reseated/slide out when shipped. The #1 fix for Sony Betacams and the like when you got there and they went to crazy town was to reseat the boards.

I was on a shoot where a d-20 got dropped (I was the steadicam Op and wasn't even in the room) when it didn't work the whole camera dept. started taking it apart to try and get at the boards, we were about to take off the side cover, one screw left, when the 2nd realized we had a dead battery ;-).

I really wanted to see inside a d-20.........

Nick

[Tony Lorentzen]

That would put the RED ahead of the SI-2K (in OS as well as sensor) which reportedly runs an embedded version of Windows XP.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. XP is actually a pretty stable OS if you strip it down and don't install all kinds of apps on it (which is the case of the SI-2K). I still love my Mac, though :-)

[Carl Larsen]

But... does anyone know where the wedge-in picture hardware really came from???

(anyone been here long enough and have the memory to get that?)

I've been here long enough to remember our dear friend ace-hole, but it seems he has vanished to the UAE along with all of his wedge-in abilities

[Dylan Reeve]

It does. I've seen it boot. I believe I even saw the XP logo...this was at NAB 2006. If I recall correctly they stated it was very stripped down.


I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. XP is actually a pretty stable OS if you strip it down and don't install all kinds of apps on it (which is the case of the SI-2K). I still love my Mac, though :-)

I see. It was the stability I was thinking of so much, I know XP can be stable (and we're not talking months of uptime required anyway). I just didn't expect that Windows would provide a great platform from which to develop something like that...

But what do I know, I haven't tried writing a program in Windows since I was a teenager.

[Bob England]

Keep in mind that the SI-2K also has an imbedded version of Iridas Speedgrade and records to Cineform RAW as it's native format. So obviously it has to have a suitable OS for that.

[Wes Printz]

The RED is chock full of stuff inside... Lots of wires, PCB's nuts and bolts etc... Just like any other digital camera, They just went about it a bit differently.

Recently saw the SI-2K Mini, yes, runs via an XP interface, not too bad, it could use a few more gadgets.

[Tony Lorentzen]

Pana-tech - do you have the pictures to prove that? :-)

[Greg M]

I personally believe the RED sensor is/was military in origin.

But that's me.. I enjoy guessing!

Jay

nice guess Jay, but I have it on authority that it is actually from ET sources...not military at all.

[Jay A. Kelley]

What does ET sources mean Greg?

Jay

[Curran Giddens]

Extra-terrestrial?

Ok. I am now a believer....

[Cail Young]

Not my photo, but some genius from a while back cracked open a RED ONE and discovered what really powers the Mysterium:

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Not my photo, but some genius from a while back cracked open a RED ONE and discovered what really powers the Mysterium:

Aha! I knew there was a flux capacitor in there somewhere!

[chuckt]

I'd be willing to bet Sony, Panasonic etc Have bought or will by a RED and have their dissection fantasies fulfilled.

According to my inside sources, SONY did not buy a RED and it does not give a hoots about RED or SI-2k or any of other competition.
They started making video cameras before Jim was born. RED is just a video camera with 35 mm size sensor and 4K signal output. There is nothing mysterium about it.
Does it really matter who sells the sensor to RED? Do you care who manufacure the bottles for coca cola?

[David Birdy]

According to my inside sources, SONY did not buy a RED and it does not give a hoots about RED or SI-2k or any of other competition.
They started making video cameras before Jim was born. RED is just a video camera with 35 mm size sensor and 4K signal output. There is nothing mysterium about it.
Does it really matter who sells the sensor to RED? Do you care who manufacure the bottles for coca cola?

Is this even worthy of a response??

IBM was around before Bill Gates was born.....that must mean Windows will never work....

DB

[reality]

I heard Dalsa took apart a Red also. I wonder who's red it was?

[Matthew Greene]

Rumors I assume, but why would that be surprising? I'm sure a lot of us find ourself deconstucting other people's work and techniques often. Isn't it really a sign of admiration?

[Matthew Greene]

Does it really matter who sells the sensor to RED? Do you care who manufacure the bottles for coca cola?


I like the analogy.

[Andrew Hewlett]

I'm guessing it's running the Unix-like OS called VxWorks from Wind River Systems (http://www.windriver.com) on some custom-built Sundance (http://www.sundance.com/) FPGA board.

I work for Wind River...I should see if they are listed as a customer.

[Tony Lorentzen]

I work for Wind River...I should see if they are listed as a customer.

Take a look at this URL: http://www.secinfo.com/d14D5a.u2Vyb.htm (do a search for RED Digital Cinema and you'll find:

"Our major customers by revenue for fiscal year 2007 were Alcatel, Boeing Corporation, Lockheed Martin Corporation, Motorola, Inc., Raytheon Company, Nortel Networks Corporation, Northrop Grumman, Philips N.V., Red Digital Cinema Camera Company and Siemens AG. No single customer accounted for more than 10% of our revenues in any of the fiscal years ended January 31, 2007, 2006 or 2005."

[Axel Mertes]

Lorenzo,

be sure to order one or two bolt sets. Those include the allen wrenches you need for the disassmbly (I guess).

Looking forward to your reconstruction photo tour.

And the two screws you have left over when being finished were meant to hold that square shiny glossy-gold piece which you also left over, cause as it was written "Mysterium" on it, so you had no idea were to place it :).

Keep us posted when time comes.

Axel

[Andrew Hewlett]

Take a look at this URL: http://www.secinfo.com/d14D5a.u2Vyb.htm (do a search for RED Digital Cinema and you'll find:

"Our major customers by revenue for fiscal year 2007 were Alcatel, Boeing Corporation, Lockheed Martin Corporation, Motorola, Inc., Raytheon Company, Nortel Networks Corporation, Northrop Grumman, Philips N.V., Red Digital Cinema Camera Company and Siemens AG. No single customer accounted for more than 10% of our revenues in any of the fiscal years ended January 31, 2007, 2006 or 2005."

Yeah actually my boss seems to know all about the inner workings of Red and our relationship with them. Of course he didn't understand why I wanted a Red One...he said "why would you want a $17,000 camera, thats like driving a formula one on a city street."

[Tony Lorentzen]

Yeah actually my boss seems to know all about the inner workings of Red and our relationship with them. Of course he didn't understand why I wanted a Red One...he said "why would you want a $17,000 camera, thats like driving a formula one on a city street."

Great comparison! :)


Be sure to order one or two bolt sets. Those include the allen wrenches you need for the disassmbly (I guess).

I'm not likely to take my camera apart before the warranty runs out, but someone anonymous just e-mailed me pictures of a camera that was disassembled. In respect I will ask Jannard if it's okay to post the pictures.

[filip kovcin]

maybe it's easier to go to the nearest airport and kindly ask a person behind that "xray" box to scan the camera, and give you permission to take a photo of it. :)

i am sure those guys already knows what is inside. they see it more and more each day...

filip

[Nick Wolf]

Guys sorry to butt in, but...seriously I think its a no no even if its ok from the brass, some how it doesnt quite feel right to post certain things no matter how curious and facinating it is for the geek within.

Remeber the eyes of the world are upon us and Red has pulled off quite an amazing feat, lets leave the mystery a mystery and enjoy it...

I dont want to see the x-rays of an abduction! but I am sure there are alot of folks out there that would, and maybe thats why certain things should be left alone.

Of course science and tecnology need to advance blah blah blah .... But ask yourself this question before you post sensitive material, ... Does this help or hurt RED?

And then as Jiminy Cricket would say...Let your concience be your guide.

DogDay.

[Dylan Reeve]

I think the physical insides will be somewhat unremarkable anyway. It's the software and firmware that hold the real magic. It's been reasonably deduced that there are Xlinx FPGAs inside, and they are hardly exciting to look at.

[Nick Wolf]

Call me squeamish.

[Tony Lorentzen]

What I can tell you is that the boards inside are RED! Pretty cool.

[Dylan Reeve]

Pfft, the board on my SATA/CF reader is red... I want more coolness than that.