laguun
03-25-2008, 08:07 PM
Untill FCS or at least Color supports RedRAW, Scratch is the de-facto app all others will have to be measured by when it comes to convenient RED workflow.
Not in 4K so far. For 2K, sure. For 4K one can use more firepower.
Scratch is the Redraw 2K sweet spot - a good niche.
For 4K DI however there are more powerful and faster options. Keep in mind, scratch has to -render- -everything- in 4K when using redcode, just as other DI systems. Difference is, many offer 4K i/o, 4K realtime and, most important, 4K Display and you can move the debayer to the beginning of the workflow.
After this NAB, i suppose the 4K raw marketspace will be -quite- different anyhow. With the 4K realtime debayer hardwares at the doors, (which red hopefully will oem), the users should be able to get what most want:
low- to mid-priced top notch quality 4K desktop systems.
And while i understand the enthousiasm of some red-customers to have a RT 2K workflow, i have to say that i am not all to exicet about this, as this is basic principle since almost one decade.
Back to the main topic: crimson is certainly not an replacement for DI systems. It makes using alternatives easier, and desktop VFX systems (as combustion or ae) certainly have more creative freedom and more sophisticated tools, but they are no replacement for 2K RT DI (as speedgrade/color/scratch etc) or 4K RT DI (as baselight/clipster etc) - AEs much better texttools or combustions more sophisticated paint/mask/color wont help you if you have to do 12 hours dailies.
But there's a funny thing happening here in Norway. Both the major TV-channels and the film-industry is ditching Pablos/Nitris for Color/FCS @ a high rate, finishing from 10 bit dpx.
From what I see on this and other boards, this sounds very improbable, but it is never the less happening.
Norwegian filmprints are done using cinevator (http://www.cinevation.net/cinevation.net/index.jsp;jsessionid=0334ADBA9D4D6BD8905E428F30D21 E81?company=cinevation.net&page=p_product.jsp&cat=Cinevator&id=8) for realtime filmprints from the graded DPX's, and somehow Color seems to fit well in that foodchain.
This is not to say that Crimson/RedCine replaces SCRATCH, rather the oposite... More like: Yes you are sorta right in your reasoning, given that you use RedCine for OneLight and CC in some other solution.
BUT when you put up your calculus, you need to add sufficiant RAID/Playback/Hardware/Knowledge to that infrastructure, and I am contemplating Scratch because of that exact equation...
As Laguun has stated numerous times: Disks/RAIDS and high throughput infrastructures are comparatively cheap these days, but compared to working directly with the RAW files in SCRATCH, you'll need a huge infrastructure to handle the DPX workflow.
If you look at the specs, it looks like you could replace the DVS backend with a SCRATCH station in the Cinevate workflow, and you woould sit with an (at the moment) unbeatable tool for film finishing (when you start with RED source).
It is at the moment like this: You'll have to swallow one bullet or another to get the most out of your RED files. This will unevitably change, though. Cineform will show RAW 4k workflow (not from RED, but from DALSA) in FCP @ NAB. Others will follow. Maybe it's time to keep your breath, shoot that film, do them cuts and see what your options are in half a year.
And this also depends a bit on where you're coming from.
2 years ago, some people were still happy with the offerings of the DVX100 + a 35mm adapter and the film guys wouldn't even touch the idea. RED has become a melting ground for these two cultures, for better or worse. But maybe (if you're in the step up league) it could be an idea to see what you can do with the tools at hand. For supercheap and then some the ProRes workflow is here as it is. It just isn't what Scratch/High-end offers. But it's still pretty darned amazingly cool compared to anything before september 2007...
Gunleik
Not in 4K so far. For 2K, sure. For 4K one can use more firepower.
Scratch is the Redraw 2K sweet spot - a good niche.
For 4K DI however there are more powerful and faster options. Keep in mind, scratch has to -render- -everything- in 4K when using redcode, just as other DI systems. Difference is, many offer 4K i/o, 4K realtime and, most important, 4K Display and you can move the debayer to the beginning of the workflow.
After this NAB, i suppose the 4K raw marketspace will be -quite- different anyhow. With the 4K realtime debayer hardwares at the doors, (which red hopefully will oem), the users should be able to get what most want:
low- to mid-priced top notch quality 4K desktop systems.
And while i understand the enthousiasm of some red-customers to have a RT 2K workflow, i have to say that i am not all to exicet about this, as this is basic principle since almost one decade.
Back to the main topic: crimson is certainly not an replacement for DI systems. It makes using alternatives easier, and desktop VFX systems (as combustion or ae) certainly have more creative freedom and more sophisticated tools, but they are no replacement for 2K RT DI (as speedgrade/color/scratch etc) or 4K RT DI (as baselight/clipster etc) - AEs much better texttools or combustions more sophisticated paint/mask/color wont help you if you have to do 12 hours dailies.
But there's a funny thing happening here in Norway. Both the major TV-channels and the film-industry is ditching Pablos/Nitris for Color/FCS @ a high rate, finishing from 10 bit dpx.
From what I see on this and other boards, this sounds very improbable, but it is never the less happening.
Norwegian filmprints are done using cinevator (http://www.cinevation.net/cinevation.net/index.jsp;jsessionid=0334ADBA9D4D6BD8905E428F30D21 E81?company=cinevation.net&page=p_product.jsp&cat=Cinevator&id=8) for realtime filmprints from the graded DPX's, and somehow Color seems to fit well in that foodchain.
This is not to say that Crimson/RedCine replaces SCRATCH, rather the oposite... More like: Yes you are sorta right in your reasoning, given that you use RedCine for OneLight and CC in some other solution.
BUT when you put up your calculus, you need to add sufficiant RAID/Playback/Hardware/Knowledge to that infrastructure, and I am contemplating Scratch because of that exact equation...
As Laguun has stated numerous times: Disks/RAIDS and high throughput infrastructures are comparatively cheap these days, but compared to working directly with the RAW files in SCRATCH, you'll need a huge infrastructure to handle the DPX workflow.
If you look at the specs, it looks like you could replace the DVS backend with a SCRATCH station in the Cinevate workflow, and you woould sit with an (at the moment) unbeatable tool for film finishing (when you start with RED source).
It is at the moment like this: You'll have to swallow one bullet or another to get the most out of your RED files. This will unevitably change, though. Cineform will show RAW 4k workflow (not from RED, but from DALSA) in FCP @ NAB. Others will follow. Maybe it's time to keep your breath, shoot that film, do them cuts and see what your options are in half a year.
And this also depends a bit on where you're coming from.
2 years ago, some people were still happy with the offerings of the DVX100 + a 35mm adapter and the film guys wouldn't even touch the idea. RED has become a melting ground for these two cultures, for better or worse. But maybe (if you're in the step up league) it could be an idea to see what you can do with the tools at hand. For supercheap and then some the ProRes workflow is here as it is. It just isn't what Scratch/High-end offers. But it's still pretty darned amazingly cool compared to anything before september 2007...
Gunleik