Can we ENG at 480?

[tj williams]

If RED is addressing the ENG business space it seems like a good idea to implement RGB output in 480 also.

Currently most news is 480 many reality programs and cable programs are 480. I currently have a bunch of HD and SD cameras it would be nice to retire the ole Betacamsp and shoot 480 on the RED.

Then I could use my HD lens for SD!!!

Best of all would be 3/4480I 3/4 480 24P 16/9 480 24P 16/9 480I That replaces the Betacam Sp the various Dvcams etc.

[Graeme Nattress]

We don't do SD in camera. AJA make little converter boxes if you need it out the HD SDI to a deck or something. Neither do we do Baird 30 line black and white nor 405 line black and white. I don't know who makes adapter boxes for them.

Graeme

[Rob Lohman]

You can of course do SD output through REDCINE

[Dominic Jones]

Neither do we do Baird 30 line black and white
Lol, aww... c'mon guys - I thought this camera was all about options?!

:biggrin:

[Sanjin Jukic]

Lol, aww... c'mon guys - I thought this camera was all about options?!

:biggrin:

For your desired SD get another expensive or even cheaper cam. Any HDV, HVX200, XDCAM, Betacam, Thompson or Panasonic or all old that broadcast stuff. The RED ONE is just staring from 720p to ultra high 4K. As it advertised. SD? What it is? Do we still need this or...?

[tj williams]

Graeme: exactly!It doesn't currently do that... What I'm exploring is the possibility of doing SD RGB output. I own one of those adapters the AJA and it is not all that good also I would have to carry a deck around to record it thus making the RED an impossibly awkward ENG camera. What is the format stuff: SD in NTSC and PAL it is currently the most common format of TV on the planet. I have no idea what those other formats are???

Dominic... Thats what I felt also. So I'm asking can this flexibility into the largest production market on the planet be a possiblity.

I guess we live in different worlds? I shoot a variety of shows, spots, docs, and some drama. I work in Film rental 35mm, (own a S16 film camera, HDCam, BetacamSp, Dvcam, I live outside LA NY London in a secondary city.... Guess which one??? Most ENG type work and most SD work I get requires me to send the footage directly with the producer. This is how I intend to address HD work for these same kinds of clients.

In ENG work this is my opinion.

1. Today all dvds are burned in SD Try to get an HD Dvd at Blockbuster.

2. Today most of broadcast is SD

3. Today most commercials you see on the air are played back from a Betacam based system in SD

4. Today Most corporate work by a large margin is still in SD This includes work for Microsoft (It's where I live baby!!)

5. Today There are a number of camera-people in my city earning a good living shooting nothing but Betacam. Only in the last couple of years has DVcam become acceptable for this work. Network news is still often Betacam originated. Even some HD programs get their stuff up-rezzed to HD fm SD shoots.

6. Today all editing systems support SD, you can also edit HD on many of them if you have the latest software and a powereful computer, and a raid array..

Tomorrow. By the time of the first or second RED upgrades SD will be relegated to internet level video. There will still be quite a bit of production to serve this market. Look how slow it's been for HD to become the braodcast standard. Look how much of your cable is still SD. probably we are 4 years from requiring HD for broadcast. Cable? who knows.


There is enough interest in RED as an ENG camera, to start an ENG Forum. Most of ENG is done in SD most of SD cannot wait for processing in RED Cine and must be delivered NOW!!!

RED as a camera with Direct RGB output to SD would have the following advantages.

1. You could use 35mm lenses in spot prod. to control DOF what some folks are now doing with Redrock micro etc.

2. You could work with a 2K sensor which will down-convert to very high quality SD output. My experience with downconverting my Sony HD cam output to SD has been that it is some of the best SD video out there. It will look much better than a bunch
of pretty expensive older tech SD broadcast cameras.

3. You could use a really flash camera that you are used to already to shoot SD jobs that come to you.

4. You could use your HD lenses which will convert to RED but which are not compatable with SD 3 chip cameras.

5. Best of all ALa Gibby... look for new markets be flexible.... you could work more days to pay the camera off.

[tj williams]

Rob and Graeme.

Currently I shoot a lot of HD for SD output to commercials. The producers like to show the client that they are shooting with a high end camera, and the oversampling of the HD downconverted thru the DaVinci is very pretty SD.

Since RGB is still being worked on I'd like to encourage, including an RGB 480/525 capacity. This would enable use of the camera where direct output is needed and the deliverable is SD.

This camera is gonna kill the HDcam HDvaricam cameras, why not add in the
Digital Betacams, various disc cams etc.

Would you consider offering SD as an option? I'd gladly pay a $1000US more for the option! Id pay it off in one additional shoot!!!!

[Stuart English]

Hi tj,

Are you asking that RED ONE records 480p, or that the output of REDCINE / your NLE can immediately spit out 480p?

As has been mentioned previously, the DV50 codec (DVCPRO 50) is pretty well accepted as a Betacam replacement / Digi-Betacam equivalant quality 4:2:2 standard definition format.

[Anders Holck]

I think he's basically asking for an option to do in camera 16:9 Redcode RGB at 480p23.98/29.97 and 576p25. Both scaled from 4k.

[Stuart English]

Understood Anders, that's one valid interpretation, but before offering any comment, I'd like to hear tj's thought expanded here.

[Anders Holck]

sorry

[Stuart English]

No problem. tj you're up .....

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Not to jump the gun but in tj's scenario, quick turnaround SD projects, what is the delivery medium?

[Keith Nealy]

I totally agree.

This addition alone could double sales as it would make the transition from SD to HD much less painful and allow you to use the same gear, perfecting your camera techniques, on your SD projects while waiting for the next HD project.

Keith

[tj williams]

Stuart I'm back it's Sunday after all so I went cross country skiing in the nearby Cascade mountains. What a nice shirt sleeve day up there. Sorry that I'm not more clear..

Yes I'm asking that RED Team consider NTSC and PAL direct RGB output from the camera. If the RED is addressing the ENG workspace etc...My post 6#

Downsampled from either 2K or 4K SD video should look truly remarkable in full colorspace. My experience downsampling 1080 to SD makes me believe that it is truly major. Every client who I have shot on HD and downsampled to SD has given up film on most shoots and called me back over and over for the HDCAm.

The RED in this role should look even better. Quick turnaround is the bugabooo here. These are mostly regional spots and they want to start editing yesterday. Airdates are often a day or two away. As I said in the previous post today most TV is SD all over the world. Most regional ads are SD

If this camera gave me 4K imager, with 35mm Dof and downconverted in camera better than the HDCAm I will own this market... Well except for the other fella here with a RED. We are talking about huge money making potential, and therefore very much increased RED Sales. I will be able to deliver to the Client what currently takes a rather expensive Sony HDCam and a Davinci session. I will be able to deliver it at the end of the shoot!!!!!!!

[Mike the beginner]

TJ, You provide a great insight into opportunities and realities of present day broadcasting. I am learning bit by bit.

Mike the beginner

[JohnF]

As mentioned on another thread:

If RED does not provide an internal SD recording option then REDCINE should have a very fast SD conversion/output option.

A 4k image onto uncompressed SD would blow every camera in the market out of the water plus give one a much better chance of being re-hired!

The flexibility this would provide whilst we make the slow transition to HD (no real agreed standards yet or even a commitment to actually transmit HD in Europe) would help us all out a lot.

Plus the ability to say to a client "Well if you liked that at SD wait till you see the picture from the 4k digital negative" would be great.

In the meanwhile fast turn around is very important.

JohnF

[tj williams]

John, so end of the day and my client wants to go edit. I'm quickly rendering,
which I will be able to do with the RED making it just as good as using my Sony HD and a quick DAvinci appt. The Idea here is to give the red not only image superiority but als work flow superiority to shooting with HDCam for SD.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Stuart

You know, TJ is talking about something major. I brought up a while ago, but we got "RED is an HD camera... Sorry"... This is cool, perhaps TJ is pitching it better than others have done in the past.

I would like to throw my 2 cents in here buddy.. TJ is on a MAJOR point. I am aware that REDCine will provide 480p, but speed is everything and high end cross over cameras are coming out now (See Panasonic's replacement for both SDX800, AND the varicam, shoots, DV, DVCPRO50, and DVCproHD with new codec.. Yes it's P2 camera.

IF RED were truely a cross over camera it would be the swiss army knife for all time.

If such a thing were possible (I.E. 480p) directly out of camera.. We would have a MAJOR thing.

As a matter of fact, the camera's inabilty to output 480 directly is the reason I have to keep my SDX900 instead of selling it and purchasing more equipment.

Come on guys, if this is possible... If would be a MAJOR deal.

Jay

[tj williams]

Jay
Thanks for the support. It's interesting to me that among the early adopters there are enough ENG style users to need it's own thread.

In april the RED will be before the NAB, most of the camera-people who walk by the booth will be SD shooters. Most of the station execs will be managing SD facilities. Most of the cameras sold at NAB, will still be SD.

If I were part of a TV Station's management. Looking at Aging SD shooting gear and trying to decide what to use to replace it and If I were confronted by a govt. mandate to go to HD but compliance was still years away, what choice would I make?

Choice 1. Another Sony SD camera which is dead end technology.

Choice 2. Move my whole news facility to HD immediately, despite declining revenues (currently a major TV station
problem) by buying not only a new Sony HD camera but a whole HD imaging chain.

Choice 2. The RED camera in ENG configuration, which could shoot sd news today and HD content
tomorrow

[Jay A. Kelley]

TJ,

I got all excited about the idea of RED supporting SD more than it currently does, but I think it's not gonna happen.

I hope they will consider it, but something tells me we are looking at a little too much work to make this happen. I would LOVE to be wrong, but some on the RED team do not see this camera working for a ENG setup and they are cool with that.

If you want my thought it would be this: We would need a COOL HD/SDI - IE1394 adaptor.. Then take that to a firestoreHD and you are good to go..

Or if we can do HDMI to firewire?

It's time to start thinking about a workaround

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

Stuart,

There has always been a lot of support for the SD side of RED.. This you know. So let's knock it down to a very simple request so we can get a simple answer:

Dear Stuart,
Could you please add an option that would allow us to save files scaled down from either 4k or 2k to an SD format for NTSC /PAL and saved in some sort of codec like Quicktime or DVCpro50?

This would make RED a turn key crossover camera for all those who cannot afford the move to HD but do not want to purchase a camera that cannot grow when they are ready.

The points for selling such a request have been made numerous times by numerous people. We all have a vested interest in this feature, but also believe with all our hearts that it would be of major help to the sales of RED as well.

The camera alone will be a $30k or more investment (When you start talking about a good lens) and a lot of us will simply be unable to upgrade our post production side at the same time.

ok sir, there's the request.. What say you, or Jim for that matter?

:)
Jay

[tj williams]

Jay you are a writer you take my long winded meanderings and reduce it to a simple request. You are wasting your talents in the camera world!
Since there is no answer here I suppose we must conclude that the answer is not yet ready.... See ya at NAB

[Greg Voevodsky]

Hi TJ.
I think we have presented the best business argument for including SD.

1. 80% of the world still uses it, and producers want it now - not tomorrow after a downconvert.

2. Most of Reds competition offers the both SD and HD. And for the film people, you have to go to a lab overnight and telecine - Im talking digital video for a quicker and more affordable workflow.

3. Cross over technology by definition will reach a wider audience and induce more sales.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay you are a writer you take my long winded meanderings and reduce it to a simple request. You are wasting your talents in the camera world!
Since there is no answer here I suppose we must conclude that the answer is not yet ready.... See ya at NAB

Thank you kind sir. I tend to agree, I think they feel they have gone as close to SD as they wish with the support of it in REDCine. And perhaps the speed of the software is so fast that we're not looking at that much of a time committment.

I do believe our request would have been a major selling point, nevertheless, I feel we were given a good hearing, and if our request fit their business model they most certainly would have done it.

I would have like a more direct response, but they have answered this request before.. Along the lines of "This is an HD camera, we're not going to support SD beyond what we already have"

Jay

[JohnF]

Jay I agree with your point:




I would have like a more direct response, but they have answered this request before.. Along the lines of "This is an HD camera, we're not going to support SD beyond what we already have"

Jay

I think the current support of REDCINE for SD is probably the best we can expect at the moment given the amazing effort the RED team have put in already.

Though I do hope that the REDCINE for SD process will be fast as I will be carrying a pretty fast laptop around for shooting and it would be nice to be able to simply and quickly just "spit out" an SD avi file (with matching TC???) at the end of a long day.

JohnF

[tj williams]

My suggested workflow reflects the fact that newscasts are all about speed and using existing infrastructures. So recording 480 resolutiuon in camera would still create a need to re-code to what your NLE is using as its base codec. Exporting footage from REDCINE in 480i NTSC would involve software based scaling and interlacing that can be done faster in dedicated hardware. The DV100 codec is a good choice for editing as it is in many newsrooms already.

So I believe that the fastest way to get RED ONE footage on air, is: shoot REDCODE 720p RGB, then use REDCINE to re-encode to 720p 4:2:2 with DV100 compression. Use Final Cut Pro (ar Avid eqivalent) do the editing using DV100 as its codec. An AJA or equivalant I/O card can do a real time scale / crop / interlace to NTSC / PAL and output via SDI. From there the stations's routing switcher send the baseband signal to their video servers (which could be almost any flavor of DV, M-JPEG or MPEG compression)
__________________
Workflow Wizard

Stuart has spoken on another thread wherein it seems that if RED put out 480I to the digital magazine, it would have to be transcoded in any case to an input format for the particular editing system. As I'm just a shooter and haven't edited for years I don't know the answer to this? I guess it's just not possible for the camera to real time scale 2K or 4K to 480I in an acceptable format for FC or Avid???? This seems really strange since RED can scale to 720 in real time???? CAn someone knowledgeable comment on this???

[Anders Holck]

The problem would be that to use the SD files directly in either a FCP or a AVID, RED would have to implement a compatible codec into the camera compression system.

So they would have to implement something like the DV 50 codec, just for the SD feature alone. So not only would they have to implement the 480 scale but also program a new codec.

If they don't you would still have to convert into a compatible format before you could edit with real time performance on your edit system.

Redcode RGB in SD could possibly work inside FCP, with realtime cut's but no realtime effects.

[RED-Tank]

This would make RED a turn key crossover camera for all those who cannot afford the move to HD but do not want to purchase a camera that cannot grow when they are ready.


Thank you Jay for putting this out, it is exactly why I die-hard for REDONE so much and until I read this thread, I wrongly thought that realtime SD is one of the REDONE option but obviously it isn't.



So they would have to implement something like the DV 50 codec, just for the SD feature alone. So not only would they have to implement the 480 scale but also program a new codec.


Anders, now I understand the complexity to support SD directly from REDONE.. it looks like I have to hope for a new REDLITE camera to be announced (hope rather then rumour) which supports SD up to HD 1080p, 120fps & more importantly, the nikon mount. In fact these are the main features I am after as I simply have no such market to do 4k yet (neither skill nor knowledge).

If SD was available directly in REDONE, it could kill everything from the old Sony PD150 up to probably any big camera you all know well.

[JohnF]

What is everyone fussing over SD codecs about? What's wrong with AVI's?

If one's NLE system cannot deal with a simple AVI file then it's rubbish.

Let me expand... If you shoot to tape (any format) the producer and editor have to upload/digitize the material to the NLE in real time, so a 63min tape takes 63min to upload. If your NLE cannot deal with/work using an avi file then one can convert it to whatever at faster than real time and have it running on the NLE before a tape (or tapes) would have uploaded.

RED will supply you with a camera that shoots a 4k picture and the software that can spit out a file at most resolutions so at the end of a day (if you have a laptop to do the conversion on) one can hand a hard drive to the producer with a simple AVI file that can be handled by almost all editing software on earth.

The most important issue is workflow. Can REDCINE output an SD file fast?

I think this might be the sticking point with producers esp the technologically inept, disorganized and in a hurry, basically rubbish producers (who I constantly wonder how so many of them find employment).

Uh-oh I better cut out I feel a rant coming on...

JohnF

[Rob Lohman]

AVI is not a codec. So it has nothing to do with SD. You are probably thinking about AVI + DV. Here the codec is DV.

REDCINE can output to whatever (reasonable) resolution you want, including SD. It doesn't export to AVI though. QuickTime codecs and still image sequences only at the moment.

[JohnF]

Sorry Rob I wasn't being clear.

By AVI file I meant uncompressed 720x576 (not AVI+DV) as it would be nice to output RED footage with minimal or no compression for SD clients to preserve what will no doubt be fantastic image quality. If we compress for SD at the early stage of coming out from camera (via REDCINE) then the chances that the production team might have to convert the footage to whatever their edit system of choice can handle then there is a chance that the image would be reduced further in quality.

Hard drive capacity is now in a situation where hours of uncompressed SD can easily be transported on a single drive.

That said I am stating my opinions (and so is everyone else I think) based on what pre-release information we have seen regarding RED and REDCINE. The options that have been presented are very exciting and I'm looking forward to working with them but they seem more orientated to film production and other "longer run in" productions. I think the concern on the SD EFP/ENG thread is that it could possibly be an issue for clients that we all at some time have to work with. Though I will be doing my upmost to persuade them of the benefits...

JohnF

[tj williams]

QuickTime codecs and still image sequences only at the moment. by Rob:

So Will this be possible?

Since input from analog sources through Component inputs of both AJA and Black Magic cards are uncompressed quicktime files in 8 or 10 bit in 480I 3/4
will it therefore be possible to output a matching file in RED Cine to allow the editor to have NO RENDER at the end of editing, just as if the whole program was Betacam origination imported through the card in component.

My understanding is that both Final Cut and Premiere will support quick time files which are properly configured.. At this point Avid and Sony Vegas who use hardware and proprietary formats will still have to render this output. Perhaps you have suggestions about how RED can address them?

DV rendering is valuable for some clients but most of the broadcasters still use BetacamSp for other shooting, and have libraries of material in that format. Also the uncompressed nature of these files makes them distinctly better looking than DV. in broadcast. I have shot both formats and the Betacam Sp always looks better than the DV on TV.

Of course we are all concerned that the rendering from 2K or 4K will be as fast or faster than real time. If that is the case I can distribute the rendering engine with the footage and the client can render out to 480I in the same time it would take to ingest tapes.

[tj williams]

Hoping we have a "happy 480I" answer at NAB All the Best to the RED Team, see you there...