Is FCP 8bit or 10bit?

[Shawn Nelson]

Alrighty, I'm a bit confused here. I could have sworn that I've repeatedly read here on RedUser that FCP is only 8bit and thus a rather inferior online/conform NLE.

Then I went to the Apple Tech Specs and it said that FCP can do 10bit uncompressed. Well hot damn, that's good enough for raw 2kDPX sequences and the whole nine yards. Hmmm, the confusion mounts.

Then I ran into this article here http://www.coremelt.com/support/workflow/red-camera-10-bit-color-online-workflow-with-fcp-6.0.2.html
that talks about staying in 10bit while using ProRes (which I thought was 8bit, but apparently its 8bit).

Can anyone more in the know on this help clear me up?

[Graeme Nattress]

It's very simple....

FCP has three rendering pathways:

RGB 8bit: for RGB video, RGB that cannot report itself as 32bit float YCbCr, and for all RT Previews

YCbCr 8bit: For 8bit YCbCr video rendering

YCbCr 32bit float: for YCbCr 10bit, or when "High Quality YUV" rendering is enabled, or for any codec that can report the r4fl pixel type and supply 32float YCbCr data.

REDCODE supports r4fl, and takes the RGB 12bit raw data into 32float YCbCr for such a purpose. This is essentially a lossless conversion.

Hope that helps,

Graeme

[Cüneyt Kaya]

8 bit RGB
10 bit Y`CbCr (commonly called YUV, what is wrong graeme teached me)
32 bit float

ok another question for the Ultracracks:
there is
10bit lin RGB DPX
10 bit log RGB DPX

what about
10 bit Rec709 RGB DPX ?

and about Y`CbCr:

10 bit lin Y`CbCr DPX
10 bit log Y`CbCr DPX
10 bit rec.709 Y`CbCr DPX ? (does this exist?)


ok i get what the difference between lin/log and rec709 is...
and when which of these are used (thank you community)!

But what about RGB/YUV/Y`CbCr/32 bit float ? When to use what and exactly why?

[Matt Gottshalk]

ProRes is 10 bit, you have to make sure you check "render in high precision YUV" in your sequence settings, and only use transitions that use the core technology.

[Shawn Nelson]

Graeme, so when will FCP support Redcode natively? We saw it working in the booth at NAB 2007 so a full year later and we can't pull them in and edit like Evin was so effortlessly doing, seems weird.

So 2k 10bit DPX sequences are a no-go?

[laguun]

Graeme, so when will FCP support Redcode natively? We saw it working in the booth at NAB 2007 so a full year later and we can't pull them in and edit like Evin was so effortlessly doing, seems weird.

So 2k 10bit DPX sequences are a no-go?


RGB i/o is 8bit on FCP.
10 bit RGB sadly doesnt exists in FCP so far.

[Gunleik Groven]

But let's say you cut your proxies, reconnect in RedCine with Crimson, export 10 bit log DPX, collect VFX sequences from compositor, CC in color and then you have to add titles and play this back from something. FCP would be the obvious choice, but...


Gunleik

[Shawn Nelson]

But let's say you cut your proxies, reconnect in RedCine with Crimson, export 10 bit log DPX, collect VFX sequences from compositor, CC in color and then you have to add titles and play this back from something. FCP would be the obvious choice, but...


Gunleik

But where would you export your 10bit DPX sequences to? It sounds like FCP can't handle them. This link...getting it from a RedCine timeline into AfterEffects is my top query.

[Andrew M.]

This is very interesting thread!

I see a lot of choices in different export option to 10 bit log or lin.

My impression is that 10 bit DPX log is as good as 12 bit linear, is that correct?
Also why anybody will use 10 bit linear on DPX?

Can anybody explain this to me, please?

[Nathan Troutman]

Can't color handle the 10bit DPX files? This way you cut in FCP, conform with Crimson over to Redcine and finally into Color??

However, why not just cut in FCP have Crimson create the clip pull list, 1st CC and resize only the clips used for your final timeline in Redcine, render to ProRes HQ. Then go back into FCP and relink your timeline to the conformed ProRes files. Finally send to Color or Motion for final CC, titles, etc. Export DPX out of Color. :love: Does this work - I have no idea.:waaa:

[mikeburton]

I believe GlueTools DPX tool allows you to work in 10bit 444 RGB in FCP. However, when your editing FCP will transcode the RGB to YUV on the fly. This way you can still be 10 bit 444 RGB in and out of FCP. This is sort of how I understood it. However, at 1920X1080 RGB 444 DPX via GlueTools in FCP reads at about 190mb's so you will need a RAID for playback.

[Shawn Nelson]

Can anyone fill me in on why FCP doesn't support R3Ds natively? I saw Evin doing this very thing in the booth at NAB. Why a year later do we not have it?

[Nathan Troutman]

Can anyone fill me in on why FCP doesn't support R3Ds natively? I saw Evin doing this very thing in the booth at NAB. Why a year later do we not have it?

Great question - FCP integration was promoted to much more Revolutionary than it currently is - now a year later.:construction:

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Can anyone fill me in on why FCP doesn't support R3Ds natively? I saw Evin doing this very thing in the booth at NAB. Why a year later do we not have it?

i think because its raw....we would need something like redcode 444......a better ProRes....a different cineform


read this article:
http://www.hd4pc.com/techblog/2007/12/14/2k-cineform-444/

[Jim Hoffman]

can anyone suggest a resource to learn more about the kinds of things discussed in this thread? I have a basic understanding but would love to learn more.

Thanks

[Emmanuel Cambier]

So far:
proxy to prores > cut prores in FCP > FCP to Crimson > Crimson to RedCine > One light in RedCine > export to 10bit 2k DPX > Crimson roundtrip back to FCP > CC DPX in Color > …

1) Is it possible to round trip those DPX to FCP?
2) Once in Color, what are we to do?

Emmanuel

[Cüneyt Kaya]

So far:
proxy to prores > cut prores in FCP > FCP to Crimson > Crimson to RedCine > One light in RedCine > export to 10bit 2k DPX > Crimson roundtrip back to FCP > CC DPX in Color > …

1) Is it possible to round trip those DPX to FCP?
2) Once in Color, what are we to do?

Emmanuel

with gluetools it is possible to import dpx files into fcp

[Laco Zamba]

Quicktime 10bit 422 2k uncompressed vs. 10bit 2k DPX

Why prefer DPX? Uncompressed has less disk space.

[Jeremy Newmark]

There is more color info in a DPX frame, because it is essentially a 10bit 444 image, where as the 2k uncompressed file is 422.



Quicktime 10bit 422 2k uncompressed vs. 10bit 2k DPX

Why prefer DPX? Uncompressed has less disk space.

[M Most]

Can anyone fill me in on why FCP doesn't support R3Ds natively? I saw Evin doing this very thing in the booth at NAB. Why a year later do we not have it?

Because Apple's image processing engine is Quicktime. Final Cut, Motion, and just about everything else Apple has (with the exception of Shake) are basically application wrappers for Quicktime, they use Quicktime and only Quicktime. IMHO, the only way Final Cit will ever access Red's files "natively" is if Red changes their R3d file format to Quicktime. Short of that, the wrappers are Apple's current and probably future solution. I expect that the only "evolution" of this will be an integration into some extended version of the same Log and Transfer scheme used for DVCProHD ingest.

[tillHavis]

So far:
proxy to prores > cut prores in FCP > FCP to Crimson > Crimson to RedCine > One light in RedCine > export to 10bit 2k DPX > Crimson roundtrip back to FCP > CC DPX in Color > …

1) Is it possible to round trip those DPX to FCP?
2) Once in Color, what are we to do?

Emmanuel

Man all this work around is head wrecking. I for one am looking at Cineforms solution as soon as they get it running natively on Mac. One conversion and one DI to rule them all !!! However I am holding out until they get the HD link function running natively too.

[LEON]

[QUOTE=Shawn Nelson;183665]Graeme, so when will FCP support Redcode natively? We saw it working in the booth at NAB 2007 so a full year later and we can't pull them in and edit like Evin was so effortlessly doing, seems weird.

Dear Graeme, can you answer to this question ?
Who would know ?

[Gunleik Groven]

Back to GlueTools.

Will the DPX sequence behave (which means: Not go back to 8-bit) in FCP, if you install GlueTools? I guess, but It'd be finewith a confirmation.

And as I guess they're still LOG, does gluetools come with LUTs for Color and FCS?

Gunleik

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Back to GlueTools.

Will the DPX sequence behave (which means: Not go back to 8-bit) in FCP, if you install GlueTools? I guess, but It'd be finewith a confirmation.

And as I guess they're still LOG, does gluetools come with LUTs for Color and FCS?

Gunleik

Cinecube from Rising Sun:
Using Cinebube with Apples COLOR

http://cinespace.risingsunresearch.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=251&sid=6bf30ec5efdf95222e2131e98d0d9dba

[Gunleik Groven]

Thanks Kaya.
Actually mre of a reminder, when I saw it :)

Any ideo of the price for this

(calculating, as always...)

gunleik

[Cüneyt Kaya]

around 1500 USD...

calculating too :)

[Gunleik Groven]

So, Crimson, gluetools and cinespace, then.+ hardware, of course.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Aftereffects+Automatic Duck too

[eyeshigher]

Is RED - FCP native to be announced @ NAB ???????

[mezmo]

When RED stop changing builds it's possible you will see R3d native.
Camera still in devlopment, that sort of thing.
Mezmo

[Scott Simmons]

I sure hope Apple adds native ability to see .R3D files but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't. Apple is so closed in their way of thinking ... and FCP is so heavily Quicktime based that currently all you can "officially" do is use video footage in a .mov wrapper. Sure there are workarounds and hacks to see other stuff so we know it CAN do it but if they will ALLOW it to happens as a mass release remains to be seen. They have yet to support .MXF natively either and it's been around for a lot longer than .R3D.

Come on Apple... give the customer what they want!

[Gunleik Groven]

So what does Gluetools do that this doesn't?

AJA KONA DPXToQTTranslator Version 3

http://aja.com/html/support_kona3_swd.html

[Cail Young]

So what does Gluetools do that this doesn't?

AJA KONA DPXToQTTranslator Version 3

http://aja.com/html/support_kona3_swd.html

That builds a KONA codec quicktime. I'm not sure what the Gluetools codec is but you can't freely obtain a KONA decoder...

[richard peterson]

Come on Apple... give the customer what they want!

http://www.lafcpug.org/nab_2008

maybe some more news on Apple's and Red's relationship will come out here.

- Apple - Richard Townhill - "Latest about Final Cut Studio"
- Red Digital Cinema - Ted Schilowitz and the Red Team - Footage from Red shooters from around the world will be shown, and the usual RED surprises are bound to happen...

[tj williams]

Shawn Nelson View Post
Can anyone fill me in on why FCP doesn't support R3Ds natively? I saw Evin doing this very thing in the booth at NAB. Why a year later do we not have it?

Ho Shawn.... Looks like you lost Graeme's attention there!!!

A year later and Apple has no native support. Proxy's seem problematic and I'm having a hellofa time getting producers to go through all the hurdles to get a finish. Maybe by now folks at RED are a wishin they were partners with say Cineform as opposed to Apple. who will not develop until RED stops, where as Cineform has been offering as near native support as they can developing right beside RED.

I learned working for a big company that when something pisses off the main man, it's not politic to say anything at all.

[Finner]

Shawn Nelson View Post
Can anyone fill me in on why FCP doesn't support R3Ds natively? I saw Evin doing this very thing in the booth at NAB. Why a year later do we not have it?

A year later and Apple has no native support. Proxy's seem problematic and I'm having a hellofa time getting producers to go through all the hurdles to get a finish. Maybe by now folks at RED are a wishin they were partners with say Cineform as opposed to Apple.

Apple talked big at NAB last year and proceeded not to deliver and stink it up pretty bad. Makes me wonder what kind of big announcements apple will have this year that will again turn out to be a bunch of hot air. I will definately be very leery of apples offerings this year.

I find it quite amazing that even though Cineform is on the outside they seem to be the company able to actually put forward any decent solutions.

[Shawn Nelson]

So why can Red not give us a straight answer about why what Evin showed working in the Red booth never showed up? Does Apple have them under iron NDA?

[Kenn Michael]

Possibly could be because all the R3D specs aren't nailed down yet by Red? Could be why they're delaying the SDK until everything is solid codewise.

[Robert Monaghan]

Playback, full QuickTime interoperability.
The AJA Kona tools are merely a conversion utility. (a limited one, at that.)

The CineonDPX Pro tools allows any QuickTime application to work with DPX frames natively. At any bit depth too. You also get Metadata and Timecode tracks too.

To see the difference, install Cineon/DPX Pro for FCS2, drag and drop a DPX frame on to QuickTime player, and press play. Now do the same with AJA's DPX to QTTranslator. whoops. It doesn't play anything.

On the conversion side, AJA Kona QT to DPX only works with Kona Movies. The CineonDPX software can convert any QuickTime movie to DPX.

If anyone wants to try a pre-release v3.0 demo of my software, just email support at gluetools dot com. I should be posting v3.0 on friday/saturday before NAB.

bob..



So what does Gluetools do that this doesn't?

AJA KONA DPXToQTTranslator Version 3

http://aja.com/html/support_kona3_swd.html

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I expect that the only "evolution" of this will be an integration into some extended version of the same Log and Transfer scheme used for DVCProHD ingest.

Which is exactly what I want. Bring it on. It's the workflow that would make the most sense. It gives you REDCODE wrapped in quicktime and give you your REDCODE RAW as leaves you your master/backup. Just like importing as DVCPROHD and leaving you MXF files for backup. It doesn't do anything to the quality so it's perfect. It just copies the footage into a quicktime friendly format. No transcoding.

[David Wyatt]

Something tells me one of Jim's Big 3 things at NAB might solve this whole problem (or maybe it'll be relegated to the 3 minor things?) We'll know by tomorrow...