Best CC tool in Premiere

[Thundercross]

Okay soon I will have 4K in Premiere via Prospect. This is great. I was wondering about colour correction, it seems pointless to have all that colour information and throw it away right...

My question is with regards to Premieres built in Color Correction tools.

1) Is there any limit to the CC effects (fast color corrector and the 3 way color corrector) in PPRO, like 8bit or any limitation? Is it and should it be 32 bit.

2) If the native CC effects are 32 bit can I still use them and achieve good quality?

3) What other tools, like Synthetic Aperture, Colorista etc are there that I should look at?

I do not own AfterFX just so you know...

Thanks for you help. :w00t:

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

http://www.synthetic-ap.com/products/cf/index.html

Period.

But I dunno about 4K integration. Had some problems in CS3.

[Rudi Herbert]

Color Finesse is AWESOME! I graded a 45 minute documentary on it on After Effects which was made for theather projection. I could not believe how sophisticated the looks were and how easy (3 wheel interface) the program is. They used to work well with Cineform but apparrently this is not so anymore, so I would call them directly and ask them about the limitations of working in Premiere with the Cineform codec at 4K. I myself am hoping this will work because it is the set up I wanted to implement when we start shooting RED.

[Ash Bolland]

Color Finesse Rocks!

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Didn't work well in Premiere CS3, some incompatibility.

But the guys got it working in AE.

I believe that CF2 + the Magic Bullet Suite is, probably, all that one would need for the Adobe platform.

And a few other opensource projects too :).

I think that this Virtualdub\Avisynth thing has a great future in front of it.

[number6]

I think that this Virtualdub\Avisynth thing has a great future in front of it.

Link? Or are you saying Color Finesse in conjunction with Virtual Dub will be a PC workflow solution? (Also wondering if one of the NAB RED surprises won't have to do with an out of the carton render solution, especially for the PC side of things...)

[Thundercross]

Thanks for all your feedback!

Didn't work well in Premiere CS3, some incompatibility.

What exactly did not work and how did it not work?

Anyone else have some answers to my first question of the technical usability of Premieres native CC tools, and if there are any limitations?

Thanks.

[Dj Joofa]

Slightly off topic, but there is a hidden 3-way CC tool in After Effects (default is 2-way I think), which becomes only visible when you bring in a Premiere project into AE with 3-way CC tool applied. It doesn't show up in the filters list and is not searchable for some reason. But once you extract it from a Pr project in AE, from there on you can cut/copy/paste the filter to any other AE projects and it stays visible.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Link? Or are you saying Color Finesse in conjunction with Virtual Dub will be a PC workflow solution? (Also wondering if one of the NAB RED surprises won't have to do with an out of the carton render solution, especially for the PC side of things...)

No, no, no. These are different things. Color Finesse is pro plugin for Adobe.

Avisynth and VirtualDub are free opensource tools, which can be used separately, and sometimes give very good results [given that they're practically for free].

http://www.virtualdub.org/

http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Main_Page

So, my thought was that you could use these appz and be pretty happy [complete] in your post on a small budget.

[David Newman]

Color Finesse works well in Windows Premiere Pro CS3. It works at 4K and is one of the few to support 32bit float pixel mode of Adobe (this it huge.) Color Finesse is a good choice. While Avisynth and VirtualDub are assume free tools they are effectively 8-bit for these operations.

[number6]

Thanks Joofa, Karapetkov, and of course, David. All good to know.

[Thundercross]

Hi David, I'll look into Color Finesse then.

Can you comment on the CC effects (fast color corrector and the 3 way color corrector) in PPRO. Is there any limitation? Is it 32 bit?

Can I safely use them?

Thanks.

[David Newman]

Most of Premiere's own color correction filters are 32-bit, except (strangely) for basic filters like Brightness & Contrast and Levels. In our 3.3 version of Prospect 2K/4K, out before NAB, we report the filter stacks bit-depth so users won't accidently clip or add 8-bit banding to their production. We optionally place this indicator in the bottom left of the program monitor http://www.miscdata.com/pics/BitDepth32.png.

[Thundercross]

Thanks you David! This is what I wanted to know. I only ever use 3 way and fast color corrector.

Essentially there is no loss of quality if I stack a few 32 bit CC effects on one another?

Good to know (or bad...?) that some effects are still 8 bit, is there a list or some sort of tab you guys are keeping as to what effects are still 8 bit in Premiere? There is no mention anywhere of what effects are what bit depth...??

And thanks for including the bit-depth in Prospect 2K/4K 3.3, I am going to purchase it very soon and look forward to it.

Thanks

[David Newman]

Premiere doesn't report this anywhere that I know, and I could never remember which filters were 8-bit and which 32-bit. So add a 32-bit indicator ages ago for debugging, finally realizing, if I find this useful customers will to.

[Thundercross]

Yes!

Thanks we WILL appreciate it. :-)

[Thundercross]

I have notice Premieres native CC effects like Fast Color Corrector and the 3 Way mess up the blacks....

They turn "bluish" in colour, is this right or am I blind or are my monitors messed up.

If I simply place a CC effect on a clip the blacks are no longer "black"...

[David Newman]

That will depend whether you source is RGB, YUV or 32-bit etc. I have notice that the Fast Color Corrector, does take red super blacks (negative float) and crushes them into low positives, not great for a default behavior. No issue withthe three-way using float here.

[Thundercross]

Yes it appears the 3-way works fine, I just double checked. Source is mostly YUV.

Low positives???

I want some more control with the Cineform CC effects in Premiere... :whistling:

[Joe Carney]

I wonder how Colorista compares to Color Finess, other than being less expensive, hehehe.

[David Newman]

Colorista is currently only 8-bit under Premiere Pro, although I have been discussing the upgrade with RedGiant, so fingers-crossed for float support soon. Once they both have 32-bit float, the feature is favor of Colorista is it simple interface, whereas in favor of Color Finesse is the amount of control you get.

[Thundercross]

Phew, I was close to buying Colorista a few days ago. :usd:

That is why I started this thread to find out what the best prosumer color correction tool for Premiere/AfterFX there is, and what limitations I should be aware of.

If I had more money and my projects were for cinema I would be right if I could edit in Premiere, export a 444 Cineform CFHD AVI and using the Cineform AVI > DPX conversion tool I could deliver a DPX to a post house for "proper" high end color correction... right..??

I got demos of Color Finesse and Colorista and prefer Color Finesse, although the learning curve is higher.

[David Newman]

I expect Colorista will be 32-bit soon.

As for your filmout workflow, yes that will work fine.

[Joe Carney]

I thought Colorista is 32bit in AE?

[David Newman]

I thought Colorista is 32bit in AE?

Most likely, I only talking about PremierePro.

[Thundercross]

Great thanks David once again for your help.

[Jason Sinclair]

Can i get a clarification. Neo 4k and color finess give 4k workflow solution on pc including advanced color correction? visually lossless? Can someone post some pics? Can someone give us the downfalls on this workflow so no one experiences nasty surprises.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I'd also like to ask something.

A DP I know made some tests with a Christie 2K projector in a local cinema. He said that their system works with some kind of Cineform encoded files.

I was wondering what kind of Cineform software would enable me to export such packages and play them back on a Christie, for example.

It's a cool concept - you render your latest short, put it on a HDD and go to watch it with buddies in the local multi-plex :).

But seriously, which Cineform version allows for such exports? Or is it a special kind?

Mr. Newman?

Thanks in advance.

[David Taylor]

We've played CineForm files through a Christie projector numerous times, usually through its DVI input from a PC, both HD and 2K source. Yes, you just take your PC or laptop to the projection room, hook it up and go! Simply assign the Christie projector as the second head on a dual DVI graphics card.

You can also use HD-SDI to drive the projector but that requires the right player HW. We've done that numerous times too (HD-SDI) with different projectors including the Sony 4K projector and an NEC 2K projector. In the case of HD-SDI we've generally used a Wafian recorder/player as the source to drive the projector.

I'm sure the files referred to by your local theater were created from one of our standard packages - Neo or Prospect. The same files used for post are easily played out through the projector. Is this in Bulgaria?

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Yes, Bulgaria.

They're called "Arena" Cinemas - a chain of multi-plex cinema centres.

...

I can't believe how far has the tech gone.

OMG, you carry the laptop and you.... just... play.

Amazing.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

That is the beauty of Cineform.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

And what about Magic Bullet Colorista [primary CC] + Looks [Secondary CC].

How do these perform compared to Color Finesse?

Or it's best to have both? :)

[Jack Kelly]

With regards to playing video from a laptop via DVI:

I tried this once and we got an unacceptable amount of tearing in the video. Is there an easy way to stop the tearing?

Many thanks,
Jack

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

(Nevermind, I probably thought this is another thread).

[David Taylor]

We've played from a laptop/desktop a couple times into a digital projector through DVI. The first time was through a Christie 2K projector and we had no problems with tearing, and setup was simply. The second time was through a 720p projector (can't remember which one), and we had to tweak the graphics card settings to get the display just right. I suspect there will be some hardware and parameter dependencies depending on the specific configuration.

[Antoine Fabi]

Will Première render 32 bit in RGB ?

[laguun]

Will Première render 32 bit in RGB ?

premiere supports up to 16bit per channel, making it 48bit.

[David Newman]

premiere supports up to 16bit per channel, making it 48bit.

Not quite, Premiere support up to 32-bit float per channel, making in 128-bit per pixel (remember the alpha channel.)

Premiere Pro CS3 supports a wide range of 8, 16 and 32-bit per channel versions of both RGBA and YUVA. Pretty flexible.

[Antoine Fabi]

...so i should see an increased image quality compared to FCP 8 bit RGB ?
(it seems FCP renders RGB only in 8 bit)

[David Newman]

FCP also has a 32-bit float YUVA mode. If you don't use 16-bit or 32-bit float, straight clip renders will be not see much difference, the difference comes when using color correction. 8-bit rendering with color correction is prone to banding, also 8-bit integer renders clip super whites (and super black if you have those.)

[laguun]

Not quite, Premiere support up to 32-bit float per channel, making in 128-bit per pixel (remember the alpha channel.)

Premiere Pro CS3 supports a wide range of 8, 16 and 32-bit per channel versions of both RGBA and YUVA. Pretty flexible.

whoops david, i am surprised - which fileformat would one use in premiere to load/store 32bit?

[Dj Joofa]

whoops david, i am surprised - which fileformat would one use in premiere to load/store 32bit?

Laguun, you should not be. I think this is at least the 3rd time you have been informed that Premiere is able to do 32 bits, but you keep on insisting on 16 bits. :biggrin:

[David Newman]

whoops david, i am surprised - which fileformat would one use in premiere to load/store 32bit?

The Premiere Pro CineForm importer and exporter modules support the 32-bit float RGBA and YUVA modes. I guess there are other formats that support this, but that hasn't my concern. Premiere has a modern engine under that GUI, not everyone has caught on to this yet.

[laguun]

Laguun, you should not be. I think this is at least the 3rd time you have been informed that Premiere is able to do 32 bits, but you keep on insisting on 16 bits. :biggrin:

;)
Joofa, as you know i am recommending the Adobe CS Products quite a bit - and own several licenses of them. I often admitted that i am soewhat iompressed by the Adobe engine, and thats coming from a spoiled discreet/iridas/avid user.

I was asking David, not "misinforming".

We simply dont get any fileformat from redcine to premiere with >10bit per channel (which is good enough, but i would prefer to use even higher bitdepths for very complex post production pipelines).

With which fileformat do you guys manage to get >10bit per channel into premiere?

Here redcines (current release) fail with all formats, including tiff and psd to open in premiere if >10bit. Same with discreet products, their >10 bit fileformats also arent imported - i there a way which i am missing?


Its good to know that cineform has the option to use 32bit per Channel - that should be pretty futureproof - and the active metadata in cineform looks awesome.

[Lucas Wilson]

;) With which fileformat do you guys manage to get >10bit per channel into premiere? Here redcines (current release) fail with all formats, including tiff and psd to open in premiere if >10bit. Same with discreet products, their >10 bit fileformats also arent imported - i there a way which i am missing?

Laguun,

PSD will probably fail, since REDCINE doesn't export PSD files. : )

But, TIFF and EXR will export high bit depths. I know of several customers that are using higher bit-depth TIFFs with no problems in their compositing pipelines.

What specific problems are you having?

Lucas

[Maz Mawlawi]

I have never been able to import 16bit tiffs into premiere CS3....it supports 8bit tiffs but doesn;t seem to support 16bit tiffs....am i wrong about this? Also Premiere CS3 doesn't seem to support DPX files either...

[Andrew M.]

What is wrong with using AE and exporting to Premiere?
AE takes 16 bit TIFFs

[John Tissavary]

Yup, for an all Adobe pipeline AE works great to convert DPX to Cineform, which I sometimes use after Scratch if I'm doing some finesse or pick-up/insert editing.



cheers,

jt

[Maz Mawlawi]

nothing wrong with using AE....but I like to do the opposite. I want to do all my editing in Premiere Pro and then export to AE for color correction.... but since Premiere pro doesn't take 16bit tiff I have to export everything twice from Redcine...one set in 8bit so I can edit them in Premiere and one set in 16bit so I can do a "replace footage" in AE and replace my 8bit files with 16bit ones....

[Andrew M.]

New version of AE and PR supports project links.
I think it is supported only if you buy Creative Suite 3 Production Premium only.

So I export from REDCINE to DPX or TIFF, open AE project, no transcoding so far.

Then I link it from PR and work on it there, no transcodding.
Back to AE and out to Encore (no transcoding here as well) and then I pick delivery format hit process and then the first and last transcoding takes place.

You can hit transcode button in any stage in any module but I think if you do it in PR than PR will choke on 16 bit TIFF. Didn’t try it this way yet.

[Dj Joofa]

New version of AE and PR supports project links.
I think it is supported only if you buy Creative Suite 3 Production Premium only.


Yes, dynamic linking is a very powerful feature of Adobe. It was available in the previous version, CS2, also in addition to current version CS3.

However, I don't like one thing about it. I have noticed that if you don't have dynamic link but do have (separate installations of) AE and Premiere, then if you import your AE project in Premiere, then it would open up as separate clips properly on the timeline as if they were edited in Premiere. However, if you have dynamic link available, then it does not let you do that and shows the whole AE composition as a single consolidated clip.

I would use the non-dynamic link import feature a lot as I would export my FCP edited thingy to AE using Automatic Duck (and of course now my own plugin; see my signature :)), and then import the AE into Premiere. That way I could edit on FCP and then use some really good features / filters of Premiere as it will show each of my clip items separately, and apply different filters to separate clips. But with dynamic link I can only apply filters to the whole imported composition as a single clip.

I don't know how to expand an AE composition into clips in Premiere with dynamic link? Please let me know if there is a way.

[Andrew M.]

I just create Sequence for my clip from AE
One thing I can't figure out is how to create sequence 4096x2048
It defults to 1920x1080

I also checked 16 bit tiff link from AE and it look like it is working.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/805_1210727002.jpg

[Andrew M.]

About Dynamic Link (Production Premium only)
In the past, sharing media assets among post-production applications has required you to render your work in one application before importing it into another—an inefficient and time-consuming workflow. If you wanted to make changes in the original application, you had to rerender the asset. Multiple rendered versions of an asset consume disk space and can lead to file-management challenges.

Adobe Dynamic Link, a feature of Adobe Creative Suite Production Premium, offers an alternative to this workflow: the ability to create dynamic links, without rendering, between new or existing compositions in Adobe After Effects and either Adobe Premiere Pro or Adobe Encore. Creating a dynamic link is as simple as importing any other type of asset, and dynamically linked compositions appear with unique icons and label colors to help you identify them. Dynamic links are saved as part of the Adobe Premiere Pro or Encore project.

Changes you make to a dynamically linked composition in After Effects appear immediately in the linked files in Adobe Premiere Pro or Encore; you don’t have to render the composition or even save changes first.

When you link to an After Effects composition, it appears in the target component’s Project panel. You can use the linked composition as you would any other asset. When you insert a linked composition into the target component’s timeline, a linked clip, which is simply a reference to the linked composition in the Project panel, appears in the Timeline panel. After Effects renders the linked composition on a frame‑by‑frame basis during playback in the target application.

In Adobe Premiere Pro, you can preview the linked composition in the Source Monitor, set In and Out points, add it to a sequence, and use any of the Adobe Premiere Pro tools to edit it. When you add a linked composition that contains both footage and audio layers to a sequence, Adobe Premiere Pro inserts linked video and audio clips in the timeline. (You can unlink these to edit them separately; search for “Unlink video and audio” in Adobe Premiere Pro Help.)

In Encore, you can use the linked composition to create a motion menu or insert it into a timeline, and use any of the Adobe Encore tools to edit it. When you add a linked composition that contains both video and audio layers to an Encore timeline, Encore inserts separate video and audio clips in the timeline.

Other ways to share content among Production Premium components include copying and pasting between After Effects and Adobe Premiere Pro, exporting After Effects projects to Adobe Premiere Pro, using the Capture In Adobe Premiere Pro command in After Effects, creating After Effects compositions from Encore menus, or importing Adobe Premiere Pro projects into After Effects. For more information, see the relevant component’s Help.
For a tutorial on Adobe Dynamic Link, see www.adobe.com/go/learn

[Dj Joofa]

Other ways to share content among Production Premium components include copying and pasting between After Effects and Adobe Premiere Pro, exporting After Effects projects to Adobe Premiere Pro,

Gosh, I could be so dumb :pinch: Of course, I am!! This is an inexcusable error. I guess RedUser forum can suggest an appropriate punishment for me.

Yes, indeed, I can export AE composition as Premiere Pro project, when I have dynamic link installed instead of trying to "Import" AE project directly, which will invoke dynamic link.

Thanks a lot Andrew.

[Andrew M.]

You will be punish with two weeks of work with Color Finesse simple interface:-)

[Andrew M.]

I figured it out how to create 4096X2048 output in Premiere.
It is in Project defults, that simple.

I linked AE-PR-Encore on the clip level.

If only we have Cineform going realtime here would be prfect.

Also the secondary color correction in Color Finesse works great!
and there is HDR like effect in AE

Now I have to remember what I did.............

[Antoine Fabi]

FCP also has a 32-bit float YUVA mode. If you don't use 16-bit or 32-bit float, straight clip renders will be not see much difference, the difference comes when using color correction. 8-bit rendering with color correction is prone to banding, also 8-bit integer renders clip super whites (and super black if you have those.)

It's probably why FCP render in YUV looks so much better than RGB.

[Daniel García]

We've played CineForm files through a Christie projector numerous times, usually through its DVI input from a PC, both HD and 2K source. Yes, you just take your PC or laptop to the projection room, hook it up and go! Simply assign the Christie projector as the second head on a dual DVI graphics card.

Isn't that limiting the proyected image to 8 bits/channel?
I know that bit depth isn't as crucial in the final product as it is during postproduction, but I understand there was a big fuss about the digital cinema standards being established on 10 bit because that was not enough, according to some specialists.

So, is DVI really a good protocol for cinema projection? Is it possible to push more than 8 bits through DVI?

[David Taylor]

Yes, the projected precision becomes 8 bits when using DVI. In a DCI or high-quality environment you'd (probably) prefer an HD-SDI interface. But in some festivals we've been involved with, and also in some objective quality evaluations we've been involved in, the organizers have preferred the simplicity of the DVI interconnection. The good news is that there is a simple inexpensive connection (DVI) and a more expensive yet higher quality connection through HD-SDI that offer choices for the project sponsor. CineForm software supports both.

[Joe Carney]

Hopefully with displayport finally coming out, simple and high quality will be synonymous.