Shooting 120fps windowed ---> Scary!

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Having a JVC-HD100 at the moment made the option to shoot 120fps RED RAW in 720p sound awesome until i realized how much windowed the 720p window is going to be :-)

Have a look:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a335/pilalitos/RedWindowComparison.jpg

What do you guys think? Is this going to be a useful option or should we start considering the RAW PORT?

Miltos

_________________________
http://pilalitos.blogspot.com/

[Anders Holck]

Actually 720p redcode RGB at 120 fps is scaled from the 2k image so it has s16 FOV. Just use s16 lenses and you should be good.

(Also note that the image you based your crops on is the full cmos 4900 (h) x 2580. Your base image should actually be a 4k image instead as this is the N35 format. The max recordable image is 4520 x 2540 out the uncompressed RAW port, and 4k is the max onboard recordable image.)

[Dominic Jones]

Hi Miltos,

I don't think the 720p mode is going to be windowed (at least, not to native 720 size). The options as I understand them are either scaled from the full 35mm sensor size (up to 60fps) and windowed from the S16 (2K) portion of the sensor (up to 120fps).

Oh, btw, your 2K window on the image above is 4:3!!!


Ah, Anders beat me to it - cheers Anders!!!

[Miltos Pilalitos]

You still need the RAW Data Port to go 120fps in 2K...

[Dominic Jones]

Yes, that's correct...

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Oh, btw, your 2K window on the image above is 4:3!!!

My 2K window is an actual 2K Full aperture resolution (2048x1556) on top of the 2540p RED frame! It may look odd but this is how it is!

Miltos

[Anders Holck]

Note that again that your frame is 4900 x 2580, not 2540p

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Note that again that your frame is 4900 x 2580, not 2540p

Note taken!

So the correct analogy is this:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a335/pilalitos/RedWindowComparisonFIX.jpg

[Dominic Jones]

My 2K window is an actual 2K Full aperture resolution (2048x1556) on top of the 2540p RED frame! It may look odd but this is how it is!

Miltos
Ah, OK - I'd assumed you were going for the Red 2K area, which is 16:9 of course!!

[tj williams]

Miltos

The frame relationships are published on the RED site.... The pictures of the glasses. The FOV of 720 2K and 1080 are exactly the same! Of course you will lose some resolution going to 720 in a 2K show for slo mo at 120fps.

I think this analogous to the SD up rezzed pictures which by network rules (varies by network) are allowed in a certain percentage of HD shows. You are sitting watching HD when uprezzed footage comes up. If you are into the program you don't notice it. Often it's great footage that is not available in HD. Same here a great 120fps shot at a lower rez will not be noticed so much. Of course if you have the budget for the port and raid....

[Anders Holck]

I just don't understand why you still talk about a windowed 720p RAW when it's not part of the current Red options.
The only on board 720p option right now is 720p RGB either scaled from 4k, from 2k windowed or from B4 windowed.
The uncompressed RAW dataport will only do 4.5k, 4k or 2k, not 720p

TJ, I seem to remember that 1080p would be cropped from 2k, as 4k>2k is a fast 2:1 scale and then you apply a slight crop to get to 1920 and a crop from 2k is much easier than a scale

[Miltos Pilalitos]

The frame relationships are published on the RED site.... The pictures of the glasses. The FOV of 720 2K and 1080 are exactly the same!

The FOV of 720p, 2K and 1080 are the same ONLY when they are downrezed from the 4K footage.

When shooting 720p 120fps RED CODE the frame is just a small window (2K) from the full sensor. That means the FOV is not the same.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I just don't understand why you still talk about a windowed 720p RAW when it's not part of the current Red options.
The only on board 720p option right now is 720p RGB either scaled from 4k, from 2k windowed or from B4 windowed.
The uncompressed RAW dataport will only do 4.5k, 4k or 2k, not 720p

http://red.com/formatoptions.htm

720p RGB
REDCODE Up to 120fps

[Anders Holck]

That is not Redcode RAW, it's Redcode RGB.
And if you look at the image size (it's at the top) of the cells that read 120 fps it's either 2k s16 FOV or the B4. It's not windowed 720p

[Miltos Pilalitos]

That is not Redcode RAW, it's Redcode RGB.
And if you look at the image size (it's at the top) of the cells that read 120 fps it's either 2k s16 FOV or the B4. It's not windowed 720p

Hey Anders!

I am not insisting that the 720p 120fps footage is 720p windowed. I got that the first time man! :-)

Still.... 120fps from the RED camera is going to be tricky without the RAW port.

BTW, Where is REDcode RGB coming from? The camera or the software?

[Anders Holck]

Redcode RGB should be available both in-camera and as output from RedCine.
In camera it's 1080p and 720p only though.

[Stuart English]

REDCODE has two modes - RAW and RGB

RAW is direct off the sensor 12 bit linear (but still corrected for pixel level variations such as fixed pattern noise etc)

RGB is de-bayered and scaled from the RAW. So, in camera, we offer 1080p and 720p as REDCODE RGB recorded images, scaled and / or cropped from the RAW, but not as native RAW images themselves.

[Rob Lohman]

Our 2K is also 2048 x 1152 (16:9 [1.77]), not 2048 x 1556 (1.32)

[James T Mather]

Okay - I apologise to sound dense but could someone clarify (and I have searched the forums with no clear and satisfactory explanation). To save an avalanche of vitriol I will state what I understand to be the case -

using Redcode and a RED Drive or flash options can I shoot at 720p 120fps and 4k 60fps or not? Or do I need a RAW port to even shoot 4k?

Thanks

:turned:

[Anders Holck]

According to current on-board specs:
720p 120 fps: Yes, in Redcode RGB, and scaled from windowed 2k.
4k 60 fps: no, only up to 30 fps in 4k Redcode RAW.

[James T Mather]

Thanks - there's just a ton of info coming onto the board and site at the moment and no clear way to get it.

Thus :

S35 Camera at 4k up to 30fps
windowed 2k frame at 720 120fps

- using the standard drive options

So apart from the flexibility of RAW and, no doubt, an utterly unusable amount of data at RAW 4k what is the advantage of RAW port? what additional fps does it offer?

:turned:

[Anders Holck]

no N35, not S35.

S35 is 4.5K only, which also means uncompressed RAW only.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Thanks guys,

That cleared it up for me too!

Miltos

[Anders Holck]

Raw port offers:
S35 uncompressed RAW 4.5k at up to 60 fps.
N35 uncompressed RAW 4k at up to 60 fps.
S16 uncompressed RAW 2k at up to 120 fps

[Gbabymogul]

no N35, not S35.

S35 is 4.5K only, which also means uncompressed RAW only.
Anders, are you sure 1080p RGB 4:4:4 is scaled from the windowed 2K frame ? I'm sure that I read it was scaled from 4K. Mostly, because I remember the discussion on getting the 35mm FOV with scaled 1080p. You also get more dynamic range with scaling from 4K.




:guinness:

[Anders Holck]

1080p RGB can be scaled from either N35 4k, S16 2k or B4.
All offer up to 60 fps only.

This thread was about getting 120 fps, which is only possible on-board in 720p RGB scaled from either 2k S16 or B4.
In 720p Redcode RGB scaled from S16 or B4 you get 120 fps, in 720p Redcode RGB scaled from N35 you only get 60 fps.

[Gbabymogul]

1080p RGB can be scaled from either N35 4k or S16 2k.
In the S16 mode you get 120 fps, N35 mode only 60 fps.

Yeah, that's what I thought (although I didn't know you had the choice whether to scale from the 4K or 2K frame to 1080p in camera ).

You posted this (quoted the wrong post above)
I seem to remember that 1080p would be cropped from 2k, as 4k>2k is a fast 2:1 scale and then you apply a slight crop to get to 1920 and a crop from 2k is much easier than a scaleBut, that's what you get for skimming...miss the context from all the posts previous adding to it. My fault :tongue:

I did learn something new, though...4K or 2K scaled to 1080p. That's stupendous...

:guinness:

[James T Mather]

no N35, not S35.

S35 is 4.5K only, which also means uncompressed RAW only.

N35? Normal 35?
S35 sized chip is unavailable on any system other than RAW? is this correct?

Sorry to be dense but this isn't obvious from the boards.

What is the largest sensor and output size and fps from the basic camera plus drive? (for the love of god):umm:

[Anders Holck]

Yes, that post was a little unclear.
I just wanted to say that I remember a post where Graeme, Rob or Stuart stated that in 1080 RGB, S16 is cropped and not scaled, and N35 is scaled 50% and then cropped to 1080.
Don't know if this is still the case. But it makes sense that a 50% scale is less costly than a arbitrary scale.


Yes, On-board recording is (currently) max. N35 4k 30 fps. You need the uncompressed Raw port to capture the whole S35 chip.

[James T Mather]

Which puts data rates into crazy areas though. So we're restricted to 4k 30fps (top speed at 4k) using a 35mm sized chip.

That S35 crop is a bit of a shame - purely for DOF and framing Aspect ratio reasons.

Thanks

:turned: