4K to ProRes went to crap!!!!

[timecodemultimedia]

I added the same post on the Creative Cow where I am a forum leader for Apple Color. So you guys may want to check it out for other's answers and ideas. Here it goes....

That's right it went to crap!. I've been working on a 4K (shot on RED) project that had all footage converted by the editor to ProRes for offline. I was given the Prores files to color correct, composite and master. The work is so intricate that the chances of going back to the R3D file and re-convert to UC 10bit HD were not a possibility due to time and budget.

So I had to decompose the project in order to take it to Color and this is what I have found out:

- The primary conversion from the R3D files to Prores HQ 1920x1080 looks great and it is very workable.
- But the baking of such things as speed changes and composited clips compresses the signal to its very limits.
- By the time the program is sent to Color, it has lost so much data that it is a pain in the ass to color grade and the whole thing pretty much disintegrates on final render.
- So I was forced to pull a few 4K R3D files and convert them to UC10 bit to finish and have clean shots.
- I have worked with ProRes in simple (prep wise) projects and have not really seen this issue. But this one was a heavy baking project that really put ProRes to the limit.

I am disappointed at the codec and am also trying to decide whether I should start telling my clients that for finishing and color it's going to be uncompressed or nothing. To be honest, I never really trusted it, but the small data rate is so tempting.

- Anyone else has experienced the same?
- Could it be the fact that this Prores originated from a conversion of R3D files through RedCine?
- Would Prores captured from a tape source handle things better?

I'll run some crazy tests but just wanna know what you all think.

[Corrado Silveri]

Are you able to post a small Prores clip?

[timecodemultimedia]

Unfortunately I can't. This is for a European Music tv show that is not on air yet. Otherwise, I would likely upload sample files.

[Tar]

I have just shot a project with the RED (most of it 4k, some 2k slo-mo) and am editing off the proxies. I was, up until I read your post, planning of converting all the proxies to ProRes and using Apple Color for my grading. I didn't do any test, but from what I've gained on these forums that seems to be a pretty good way to go.

Care to share your compression settings? Also, how are you grading the images? Adding a lot of saturation or luma?

If you're going to UC 10-bit HD will you be downconverting to 1080p?

[BigLu]

I have converted my footage from 4K into ProRes 422 HQ and color corrected in COLOR myself.
I thought it was just me or I was doing something wrong. But now with what you have mentioned I am convinced that it is weak at best.

In order to get a good color grade I find myself pushing the colors around alot. But it is not as elastic as one hopes it does fall apart left and right.
I am very disappointed at this point and find myself wondering what are some solutions.
At this point I am punting and shooting on a trusty HVX-200 instead of with the RED.

I have worked with raw footage in the past.
For Example the Viper Stream shoots in raw which gives a green color cast, works great.
Grading with that does not fall apart like this RED CODE RAW does.

There needs to be official posts on what proven workflows are for color grading using FCP for editing and Color as a grading option.
Can we keep it in 10bit with ProRes?

[Tar]

BigLu-

Apparently ProRes is 10-bit.
http://www.coremelt.com/support/workflow/red-camera-10-bit-color-online-workflow-with-fcp-6.0.2.html

[Tar]

Here's a couple more good links that I found on this forum
http://www.coremelt.com/support/workflow/codec-and-effects-limitations-for-10-bit-online-workflow-with-final-cut-pro-6.0.2.html
http://www.noiseindustries.com/support/technotes/files/high-precision_rendering_in_rgb_and_yuv.html

[timecodemultimedia]

Remember that Prores is a highly compressed format.
UC10bit is till compressed as is 4:2:2 and not 4:4:4, but a lot less than Prores.

It just sucks that prores is not the "miracle" codec as Apple wants it to be.

[Evin Grant]

How are you guys setting things up in Color, I'm not that familiar but I think there are some issues with getting the full 10 Bits into the 32 Bit float. That may be your issue. Also are you making the the Pro-res files form the proxys? Or from Red Alert/Redcine? The Proxys only show up as 10bit in FCP if the timeline has "Render in high precision YUV" eneabled.

[NateWeaver]

- The primary conversion from the R3D files to Prores HQ 1920x1080 looks great and it is very workable.
- But the baking of such things as speed changes and composited clips compresses the signal to its very limits.

Ok, so it sounds to me, based on the two statements above, that the original R3Ds have made not one, but two passes through ProRes compression. Once outside of FCP, one inside.

I'd second Evin's question about where the timeline settings were. It's real easy to get those bits decimated down if you're not being careful.

[Joel Kaye]

There are a lot of unkowns here. Maybe it got messed up in the FCP timeline - 8 bit effects could have been applied there. I mean, if there has been a bunch of compositing maybe the data got messed up there. Perhaps there were a bunch of unecessary renders.

Perhaps another way to go would be to go R3D to Cineform and Cineform to ProRes for finishing in Color. If Cineform could be directly supported in Color that would be a boon for anyone wanting to opt out of ProRes altogether.

Seems like it wouldn't be too tough to mock up any test you needed to do here.

[timecodemultimedia]

All the R3D footage was converted by RedCine to Prores.
Prores have gone through 3 exports processes.
After the second pass ProRes pass looked kinda bad.
After the 3rd pass it disintegrated.

Don't even talk about a 4th and final pass.....

[Gunleik Groven]

ProRes is not RAW...
By the Apple reps I've spoke with, it's been considered "an excellent offline format". I think that is generally true...

Haven't played much with it yet, to be honest. My (testing) workflow, that seems to work nice is:

ProRes Proxies for quick edits in FCP (no CC, keying, composites or fun stuff, just picking my shots)

Crimson to onelight in Redcine. (The exports are so much more fast with RA/RL, that I hope RC can render with RL soon...)

I have also found that it's worthwhile doing some testing of the onelight from from RC, to learn what fits what shot. There is some common ground, but but I sorta see that different shots needs some individual caretaking in this stage.

CC/comps from DPX/Kona 10-bit log.

Works like a charm, from my limited testing so far.

ProRes is heavily compressed and sorta should fall appart. I cannot really agree to the DVCPRO HD parallell, though... I'm definitely ridding myself of the HVX :)

BUT, I think workflow is key to RED performance.

Gunleik

[Tar]

timcodemultimedia--
what settings you using in FCP for UC 10bit HD?

[NateWeaver]

All the R3D footage was converted by RedCine to Prores.
Prores have gone through 3 exports processes.
After the second pass ProRes pass looked kinda bad.
After the 3rd pass it disintegrated.

Don't even talk about a 4th and final pass.....

I wouldn't expect any compressed codec to survive that many recompresses, frankly.

That might speak more to the codecs I've used than ProRes, but I would still say that, regardless.

Again, though, it sounds like it probably got decimated down to 8 bit somewhere if it's really that bad.

[Uli Plank]

I'd say a ProRes workflow is OK if the final delivery is HDTV. If it's not even good enough for that, there must have been some reduction to 8 bit.

But for film-out, it's definitely an offline codec only.

Regards,

Uli

[timecodemultimedia]

For offline purposes I think Prores is a great codec. For online is good if there's no much going on. I am not completely oppose to it.

I'd like to emphasize that there's been NO reduction to 8bit. All renders were done in high precision YUV. I've said this a few posts before. The point here is that Prores is not the miracle codec as many believe. People push for it because FW drives can handle it. But reality is... all finishing and online MUST be done in uncompressed whether SD or HD (although well shot DVCPro HD shows has given us awesome results).

When running and testing parts of this same project in uncompressed, we had no issues. Period. And that's why I'll push all clients to go uncompressed 10bit 99% of the time. No compromises. The data rate is high at 160mb/sec but if that is what it takes - that is what it takes.

[NateWeaver]

I'd like to emphasize that there's been NO reduction to 8bit. All renders were done in high precision YUV.

Sorry, didn't catch that. Guess it's all the recompresses then.


When running and testing parts of this same project in uncompressed, we had no issues. Period. And that's why I'll push all clients to go uncompressed 10bit 99% of the time. No compromises. The data rate is high at 160mb/sec but if that is what it takes - that is what it takes.

Funny part is, uncompressed 1080 is increasingly becoming "not-a-huge-deal". I was astounded when I got a RAID 5 for less than $2K that does it with ease.

Just like uncompressed SD was once just for the funded, in a couple years uncompressed HD will likely be possible in just a 2 drive RAID.

[Dustin Cross]

All the R3D footage was converted by RedCine to Prores.
Prores have gone through 3 exports processes.
After the second pass ProRes pass looked kinda bad.
After the 3rd pass it disintegrated.

Don't even talk about a 4th and final pass.....

Your problem is your workflow, not Red. Why so many renders? If you shoot with HVX and do that many renders DVCProHD will look worse than Prorez.


Mahalo.
Dusty

[Thundercross]

"If you shoot with HVX and do that many renders DVCProHD will look worse than Prorez"

Not on topic here, but if you used Cineform it would look much better than both DVCPRO and Prorez. On their website you can see a quality analysis between 15 encodings of Cineform and DVCPRO HD.

[Kenn Michael]

I think Stuart is pointing out his issues with the ProRes codec, not Red or R3D footage.

[Thundercross]

I know. :-)

[Kenn Michael]

:)
wasn't directed at you Thundercross.

[timecodemultimedia]

I think Stuart is pointing out his issues with the ProRes codec, not Red or R3D footage.

Yeah!!!!! At least someone got it right!

Why are a few of you guys so touchy about RED stuff anyway? It's not Jesus' second coming you know?
It just one more technonology break through that will be replace by something else. Like everything else.

Hope you don't get all touchy again...
I'm just trying to help the Red community by sharing our experiences with the mainstream professional work we do at our studio.

Above anything, we love indie professional work and that's why from myself to our KICK_ASS rates, we are one of the best.™

[Gunleik Groven]

I tried to say that, but your phrasing was better... _) LOL

G

[Joel Kaye]

Hope you don't get all touchy again...

One guy mentioned RED footage. Who's being touchy?

[Jonas Nyström]

I'm so far from a Color master you can be - but I must say I'm not in love with Color. My feeling when I'm working in color is that the output always is a bit harsh. Is it due to ProRes?

Graeme help us!!

[Rocco Schult]

Remember that Prores is a highly compressed format.
UC10bit is till compressed as is 4:2:2 and not 4:4:4, but a lot less than Prores.

It just sucks that prores is not the "miracle" codec as Apple wants it to be.

For the compression ratio ProRes has, it is indeed a little miracle. Though I must say, I never read 'miracle' anywhere.

Btw, 4:2:2 has nothing to with compression. Its color sampling, not even color resolution or the like, just - sampling.

[eskatonia]

I'd like to emphasize that there's been NO reduction to 8bit. All renders were done in high precision YUV.

Are you sure of this? Just because the "render in high precision" color box is ticked does not mean that FCP is capable of doing all the effects you asked it to do in high precision.

see my article here for a list of which built in effects can render in high precision:
http://www.coremelt.com/support/workflow/codec-and-effects-limitations-for-10-bit-online-workflow-with-final-cut-pro-6.0.2.html

if you had many layers of compositing and 4 passes recompression then anyway yes you are past the limits of what pro res can handle. In my own tests ProRes holds up quite well with two passes (one for the edit and one for a grade with vignettes etc). more than that and you should definately use an uncompressed codec or cineform.

[timecodemultimedia]

In my own tests ProRes holds up quite well with two passes (one for the edit and one for a grade with vignettes etc). more than that and you should definately use an uncompressed codec or cineform.

Yeap! Some of us knew - some others didn't. Two passes, I mentioned that a few posts ago. Unfortunately, it wasn't our choice to go Prores. You deal with what you are given.