Are People really using COLOR to grade their DPX Files?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

to everyone out there using COLOR for CC...

Is someone really working with COLOR?

My experience so far is that with FCS2 you can do everything with ease for an HD/SD finish.

But using COLOR for a dpx sequence for filmoutput?

[Clark Dunbar]

We use COLOR for a lot of fine tuning - much more control and you have all the secondary channels that give a very expanded control. But yes, for simple grading - the 3-way color corrector in FCP works well. We work in COLOR with both with the prorez right out of the timeline and sending to COLOR, we also import the dpx sequences directly into COLOR for correction - depends on the shot.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

we also import the dpx sequences directly into COLOR for correction - depends on the shot.


how do you manage colorspaces?
i mean if you grade dpx log sequences?

[Zach Hilton]

In my opinion, anything that you want to look fabulous, sexy, great, excellent, and any other adjectives you want to throw in there, you'll definitely want to do dpx > color. From doing comparisons on Prores, uncombressed 8 and 10 bit exports, vs. DPX, DPX is the proud winner, and by a long shot. The highlights hold up a heck of a lot better, the blacks and shadows look a lot better, and you can really push the footage to look like anything you want. We have produced almost a dozen commercials (and growing fast) on our Red and others, and we've done DPX < color for final color of the locked spot, and it looks absolutely amazing. I wouldn't suggest anything less. As for color space issues, Graeme mentioned that you just set your white balance, make sure nothing clips (looking at the histogram), and export in REC709 and you essentially capture all the available information that was shot. Everything I've seen has shown this to be true. In color though, you have to change each individual shot's color space which is kind of a pain, especially for longer spots. But in my opinion, that time is well spent. Red footage looks absolutely amazing. And colored red footage looks even better.

[Clark Dunbar]

agree - dpx/COLOR offers the best CC for a small system setup - with great control. Yes a bit of extra time, but well worth the efforts!

[Cüneyt Kaya]

As for color space issues, Graeme mentioned that you just set your white balance, make sure nothing clips (looking at the histogram), and export in REC709 and you essentially capture all the available information that was shot. Everything I've seen has shown this to be true. In color though, you have to change each individual shot's color space which is kind of a pain, especially for longer spots. But in my opinion, that time is well spent. Red footage looks absolutely amazing. And colored red footage looks even better.


couple of more questions/thoughts.
1.exporting dpx with rec709 is gamma corrected linear...
ok....for hd/SD Finish this is cool


to get the greatest amount of information you should use log.
redlog is the best
pdlog is the standard.

but if you go the log route, you will have trouble with calibrated monitors and 3d LUTs, so that you can see what will be printed.

Did you you used rec709 files for filmoutput?

2.
What do you mean exactly with.....
you have to change each individual shot's color space which is kind of a pain, especially for longer spots.....

Can you break it down for me?


------------------------------------------------
i want that somebody prove me wrong.

but for a proper filmoutput you`ll need at least

10bit RGB log DPX files....
calibrated monitors
working 3D LUTs
handling of Titles/VFX

and i dont see how COLOR is able to give this things.

[Tar]

Sorry (for my ignorance) guys...

what's DPX?

[mtseng]

Sorry (for my ignorance) guys...

what's DPX?


DPX is a file format that filmscanners uses when scan film
It´s have high quantity in information. A single frame from RED 4k
is about 30 MB.
Has a lot of color information and highlights and shadow information, but
it´s impossible to a normal computer to edit 24fps*30MB
it will need a lot of raid disks.
The unique way to normal people is a solution with proxies like the crimsom workflow

Edit in a low codec> export the cuts to the redcine >export dpx from REDCINE
> import dpx in color > be a happy man

[Zach Hilton]

The unique way to normal people is a solution with proxies like the crimsom workflow

Edit in a low codec> export the cuts to the redcine >export dpx from REDCINE
> import dpx in color > be a happy man
Interesting choice of words. I do consider myself a "normal" person. We aren't a huge shop and we don't have endless supply of funds, so budget, time, etc... are huge concerns for us. That being said, a "normal" person like myself can feasibly and with relative "ease" (which is getting better as the months tick by) shoot, edit, and create a finished product in any form of end product. From SD up to 4k. If you actually think what the crap is going on, this is absolutely amazing! We edit off of DV50 files as a one-light exported from Redcine then roundtrip that through Redcine again for final DPX export and Color color correction. If you were to tell me that I would have access to these kind of professional tools, and yield really professional results at this point in my life, I don't know if I would believe you. But the fact of the matter is. I am, and we are. Which is the best thing about this whole project. "Normal" people who have been limited in some way or another in the past, now can have access to the same caliber of tools that "Ab-normal" people do. Quite the accomplishment for Jim, and every one else involved. And I mean EVERYONE!

[Zach Hilton]

couple of more questions/thoughts.
1.exporting dpx with rec709 is gamma corrected linear...
ok....for hd/SD Finish this is cool


to get the greatest amount of information you should use log.
redlog is the best
pdlog is the standard.

but if you go the log route, you will have trouble with calibrated monitors and 3d LUTs, so that you can see what will be printed.

Did you you used rec709 files for filmoutput?

2.
What do you mean exactly with.....
you have to change each individual shot's color space which is kind of a pain, especially for longer spots.....

Can you break it down for me?

K.Berlin, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), everything up until now that we've done has been for either SD or HD broadcast. So, REC709 fits our needs perfectly right now. So, I will be unable to answer your questions regarding a film out, and proper color space management. I would be interested in anyones thoughts on the matter, as I'm sure I'll have to cross that bridge sometime soon. As for the steps in color. You import your DPX sequence into Color (shows up as a clip if you exported it correctly), and when highlighting one clip you go to the "Settings 2" tab next to your timeline and click the "Override" button. You can then force it into a color space of your choosing. We've done linear here, and have had very good results. Once again, that's for broadcast. Hope that helps. Oh, and we usually color in 1080 and each DPX frame is 8MB. So not completely unmanageable.

[Scott Simmons]

From doing comparisons on Prores, uncombressed 8 and 10 bit exports, vs. DPX, DPX is the proud winner, and by a long shot. The highlights hold up a heck of a lot better, the blacks and shadows look a lot better, and you can really push the footage to look like anything you want.

I'll agree with this one 100%. We've done side by side test of ProRes HQ and DPX sequences of the same material, color grading on a DaVinci 2K and while the pro res does look nice you just get so much more latitude with DPX. In a "good, better, best" scenario, DPXs are definitely the best and worth the effort if you have anything other than the most back color correction.

[ilinx]

couple of more questions/thoughts.
1.exporting dpx with rec709 is gamma corrected linear...
ok....for hd/SD Finish this is cool


to get the greatest amount of information you should use log.
redlog is the best
pdlog is the standard.

but if you go the log route, you will have trouble with calibrated monitors and 3d LUTs, so that you can see what will be printed.

Did you you used rec709 files for filmoutput?

My question exactly! I might be working on a project shot in 4K and graded in Color. Output will be 2K DPXs for 35mm film out. I really wonder how to handle the whole LUT question, and at what point to convert to 10 bit log DPXs for the filmout (before or after the color grading).

Is there ANYONE out there who has used Color for film out and has dealt with the log colorspace question? IMO, it seems if you're going to shoot with the Red for film out, you should follow a workflow that takes advantage of the RAW format's greater color grading room for work (if that makes sense), but I'm not sure what workflow that would be, or how Color can fit into it.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Is there ANYONE out there who has used Color for film out and has dealt with the log colorspace question?

People are really underestimating the Color Space issue...

What is better:
have log files and add a 3d Lut to view your stuff.

or have rec709 files and bake in a video gamma corrected linear to log pretransform then add a 3d LUT to view your stuff

[Cüneyt Kaya]

here is something from the Cinespace Forum (dont know is this ok?)
cinespace.risingsunresearch.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=251&sid=6bf30ec5efdf95222e2131e98d0d9dba


CineCube (Cinespace 3d LUT creator)
We have had quite a few queries from users having trouble using cineSpace LUTs with Apple Color. Color seems to do some rather unintuative things when rendering and importing log and video (gamma corrected) images. Users are finding that images are being converted to log twice or not at all.

I have had a good play with Color and found the following 2 procedures work well for work flows where the final deliverable is a log image to be printed to film.


If images are in log format to start with ...

(1) Import images into Color
(2) Ensure that in the "Settings 2" tab in the bottom right of the Color GUI has the "Override Header Settings" checked and "Linear (0 Black - 1023 white)" is selected as the "Printing Density".
(3) In the "Prjct Settings" tab make sure that "Printing Density" is set to "Linear (0 Black - 1023 white)" and "Render File Type" is "DPX"
4) Import a DisplayLUT created with cineCube using a film target profile but without using a pretransform.
(5) Do the grade Smile
(6) Clear the DisplayLUT
(7) Render images


If images are in video (gamma corrected) format to start with ...

(1) Import images into Color
(2) Ensure that in the "Settings 2" tab in the bottom right of the Color GUI has the "Override Header Settings" checked and "Linear (0 Black - 1023 white)" is selected as the "Printing Density".
(3) In the "Prjct Settings" tab make sure that "Printing Density" is set to "Film (95 Black - 685 white : Logarithmic)" and "Render File Type" is "DPX"
(4) Import a DisplayLUT created with cineCube using a film target profile and also using the Apple_Color_Gamma22-to-Log pretransform.
(5) Do the grade Smile
(6) Clear the DisplayLUT
(7) Render images

If users have any other hints or suggestions on working with cineSpace LUTs in Apple Color please add them here.

Thanks,
Mike

[Cüneyt Kaya]

the problem is in my opinion if you create your own 3D LUT things can get nasty really fast...

What about someone creating 3D Luts for the RED People and COLOR guys.
But your Lab should know what type of LUT you used.


What about Kodaks 3d LUTs, are they working with COLOR?...I know they work with Shake.

[Marcus Struzina]

A question for Strongbad_2Z , in Color do you set your color space in the settings 2 tab to linear (0 black - 1023 white ) or video ( 64 black - 940 white )? when you are grading your rec709 dpx's ?
Thanks



www.belladonnathemovie.com

[sparkhope]

I'm very interested in the answer to this question!!!! I believe the company Timecode Multimedia (has posted on RedUser) is a COLOR shop. Their website (http://www.timecodemultimedia.com/colorgrading.html) makes no mention of Scratch or any other grading tool. I don't know if they've graded for filmout but I hope they can join the conversation.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

We've done linear here, and have had very good results. Once again, that's for broadcast. Hope that helps. Oh, and we usually color in 1080 and each DPX frame is 8MB. So not completely unmanageable.

are you talking about linear or gamma corrected linear?

[ilinx]

People are really underestimating the Color Space issue...

What is better:
have log files and add a 3d Lut to view your stuff.

or have rec709 files and bake in a video gamma corrected linear to log LUT

Very good question. OK...let's say you shot 35mm. You would use method 1. Your film gets scanned as log, and in order to view it right on your monitor, you apply a LIN to LOG view LUT of some sort. Then you color correct, and when you record to film things look good.

Method 2 would be what you would normally do for video, I assume? (I don't have much experience in video to film out). You have a linear gamma file, and you use a conversion LUT so things look proper when you record to film. In other words, you need to convert from the linear file you have to something that will look good in the log-like medium of film.

However, here is where I have some doubts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but simply converting to a 10 bit log DPX file doesn't change your colorspace, does it? I mean, you are now in log, but I don't think a LUT has necessarily been applied. I guess it will depend on the software that you used for the conversion? And if you don't have a window at some point asking you what kind of negative or internegative you're going to use and other details, can you really expect a good result even if LUT is somehow automatically being applied?

If RedCine outputs DPX files that work well for someone who is outputting for HD/SD, I assume no LUT compensations have been made, or it would look terrible on a monitor. This tells me that in addition to converting to DPX and log, you have to actually do something about the color space. So what kind of LUT options does Color provide?

For this project I *might* work on, it sounds to me like they are planning on following a video to film type workflow, which I think would involve baking in a LIN to LOG LUT right before film recording. OK, maybe you'll get an OK result. But won't it have the limits of linear? Won't it be like recording with any other type of video in terms of color space?

Is there a better work flow to take advantage of the full flexibilities of the RAW files? And if so, can Color provide that workflow?

Even though the RAW files are linear, I'm not sure a regular video workflow is what is best. Even though it seems more circular, maybe it would be better to convert to a log color space, and then have to use a LOG to LIN view LUT on your monitor as you color grade?

What is usually done? OK...that may be a dumb answer in terms of Red as the "usually" is still in the process of being developed. But people who have used the camera for a film out.... where are you?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Very good question. OK...let's say you shot 35mm. You would use method 1. Your film gets scanned as log, and in order to view it right on your monitor, you apply a LIN to LOG view LUT of some sort. Then you color correct, and when you record to film things look good.

Method 2 would be what you would normally do for video, I assume? (I don't have much experience in video to film out). You have a linear gamma file, and you use a conversion LUT so things look proper when you record to film. In other words, you need to convert from the linear file you have to something that will look good in the log-like medium of film.

However, here is where I have some doubts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but simply converting to a 10 bit log DPX file doesn't change your colorspace, does it? I mean, you are now in log, but I don't think a LUT has necessarily been applied. I guess it will depend on the software that you used for the conversion? And if you don't have a window at some point asking you what kind of negative or internegative you're going to use and other details, can you really expect a good result even if LUT is somehow automatically being applied?

If RedCine outputs DPX files that work well for someone who is outputting for HD/SD, I assume no LUT compensations have been made, or it would look terrible on a monitor. This tells me that in addition to converting to DPX and log, you have to actually do something about the color space. So what kind of LUT options does Color provide?

For this project I *might* work on, it sounds to me like they are planning on following a video to film type workflow, which I think would involve baking in a LIN to LOG LUT right before film recording. OK, maybe you'll get an OK result. But won't it have the limits of linear? Won't it be like recording with any other type of video in terms of color space?

Is there a better work flow to take advantage of the full flexibilities of the RAW files? And if so, can Color provide that workflow?

Even though the RAW files are linear, I'm not sure a regular video workflow is what is best. Even though it seems more circular, maybe it would be better to convert to a log color space, and then have to use a LOG to LIN view LUT on your monitor as you color grade?

What is usually done? OK...that may be a dumb answer in terms of Red as the "usually" is still in the process of being developed. But people who have used the camera for a film out.... where are you?

RAW is neither linear/video gamma corrected linear nor log (redlog/pdlog)
Its Data...

There is currently only one system that can CC the Red RAW files in with a 2k RT debayer...Scratch.

the CC with dpx log files is a regular process...not REd specific.

The Only question is :has COLOR the proper ability to work with 3d LUTs and if so which ones?

[ilinx]

RAW is neither linear/video gamma corrected linear nor log (redlog/pdlog)
Its Data...

There is currently only one system that can CC the Red RAW files in with a 2k RT debayer...Scratch.

the CC with dpx log files is a regular process...not REd specific.

The Only question is :has COLOR the proper ability to work with 3d LUTs and if so which ones?

I thought RAW was linear (gamma 1.0).

But yes, that's my questions, really. If you don't use Scratch, and color correct the DPX log files as you would with a regular DI, what does one do regarding LUTs?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

you have calibrated monitors.
then you apply a LUT so you can see what you are grading on your Monitor...if you dont have a LUT your stuff will look really bright.

Then you disable the LUT and the filmout will be done.
If you want that your DVD looks the same as your Filmoutput you bake in the LUT.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

there are three types of Colorspaces

1. log (for filmoutput)
2. video gamma corrected linear
3. linear (gamma 1.0)

read this article of STU of ProLost

http://prolost.blogspot.com/2005/05/log-is-new-lin.html

[ilinx]

you have calibrated monitors.
then you apply a LUT so you can see what you are grading on your Monitor...if you dont have a LUT your stuff will look really bright.

Then you disable the LUT and the filmout will be done.
If you want that your DVD looks the same as your Filmoutput you bake in the LUT.

Right...the normal DI workflow. Maybe we're talking in circles here. The thing is, if you have DPX files that were generated from RED RAW files, and grade them in Color, either at some point before or some point after you're going to have to apply a LUT. It seems like if people don't follow the Scratch route, they follow a typical video to film route. But I'm wondering if there is a third option. And if that option is Color, how are LUTs handled? Which leads to the opening question, but with an addition:

Are people really using COLOR to grade their DPX files for film out?

[Zach Hilton]

A question for Strongbad_2Z , in Color do you set your color space in the settings 2 tab to linear (0 black - 1023 white ) or video ( 64 black - 940 white )? when you are grading your rec709 dpx's ?
Thanks



www.belladonnathemovie.com
As of now, we've set it to Linear, and no problems. Footage looks beautiful.

[Zach Hilton]

are you talking about linear or gamma corrected linear? I wish I knew what we were doing (linear or gamma corrected linear). Color space is still somewhat of a pandora's box for me. The only thing that I know is that we export DPX's from redcine in REC709, then in Color, override the color space to Linear and from then on, everything looks amazing.

[ilinx]

there are three types of Colorspaces

1. log (for filmoutput)
2. video gamma corrected linear
3. linear (gamma 1.0)

read this article of STU of ProLost

http://prolost.blogspot.com/2005/05/log-is-new-lin.html

Ah... So is that what you meant when you said that RAW is not linear? To distinguish it from gamma corrected linear?

I feel compelled to read much more about this.... But let me see if I have it right, since I've been using the term "linear" to describe both 2 & 3. From the RAW file, which is linear (gamma 1.0), you can output debayered and gamma-corrected linear images. This gamma-corrected linear is still a different color space (or different color spaces if they are sRGB, Adobe RGB, etc.) than the log color space, and still requires conversion.

In the example given in the link, I still think "clipped LOG Marcie" looks really washed out. I don't think it's just a question of headroom, but also of how the values are distributed. Although the gamma corrected linear curve is not a complete straight line, it's quite different from the log curve. I mean, otherwise we wouldn't need LUTs, right?

I assume Scratch can take a RAW file and output a DPX file while baking in a LUT? But what happens if you take a RAW file and output a DPK using RedCine, and THEN bake in a LUT? Or...what does RedCine do exactly in creating a DPX? Is it just converting from a linear (gamma 1.0) color space to a gamma-corrected color space?

[ilinx]

I wish I knew what we were doing (linear or gamma corrected linear). Color space is still somewhat of a pandora's box for me. The only thing that I know is that we export DPX's from redcine in REC709, then in Color, override the color space to Linear and from then on, everything looks amazing.

OK...that's weird. Rec709 is a type of gamma-corrected linear. Hmmm... What happens if you set it to video gamma? And these settings...in addition to having top and bottom limits, do they also specify the curve distribution? And if so, do they just assume a standard 2.2 gamma?

I really wish I knew more about this.

Look at this, for example:

http://www.13thmonkey.org/~boris/gammacorrection/

Oof.

[ilinx]

Hmm...though I guess what you do, Strongbad, is the same thing they recommend in the Cinespace link that Kaya posted.

On top of everything, there are the secret things software does without telling you, just to drive you mad.

[Egil1966]

I think AJA provides a colorspace conversion tool that manages you to convert your DPX-files to the right component colorspace if you want to output it for broadcast and not film.
I tested it out just briefly this week and it seemed OK, but I will look into it closer this monday.:w00t:

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Ah... So is that what you meant when you said that RAW is not linear? To distinguish it from gamma corrected linear?



no RAW is nothing...you have to translate/develop it to a Colorspace of your choice.


Play with the COLOR button in REDCINE....here is Graemes explanation:
Color Off does not give a linear light image. It gives a no matrix and basic gamma curve decode.


If you export a linear file (gamma 1.0) it will slightly look different then watchning the same footage in Redcine with Color off.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I think AJA provides a colorspace conversion tool that manages you to convert your DPX-files to the right component colorspace if you want to output it for broadcast and not film.
I tested it out just briefly this week and it seemed OK, but I will look into it closer this monday.:w00t:

We are not talking about RGB vs YUV ( YCbCr), we are talking about different gammas.

What we discuss is dpx RGB log or dpx RGB rec709 or dpx RGB lin...and if there is a proper support of 3d LUTs in COLOR.and if so, which one to use. (luther/Cinespace/KodakLookManager etc.)

after we covered this...it is interesting to talk about RGB vs. YUV



------
if something of my statements is not correct....correct me

[ilinx]

no RAW is nothing...you have to translate/develop it to a Colorspace of your choice.

I can't quite get my head around that. I mean, it has to have some sort of color space. Each luminosity has to be recorded as a value. And if it's like still camera RAW formats, that's linear. Meaning that there's an exact correlation between the amount of photons going through the lens and the value that gets recorded.

I remembered where I read this. An article by Bruce Fraser, which is about still cameras, but I think would apply?

http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/understanding_digitalrawcapture.pdf

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

As a user of Color ex ”Final Touch” I have to clear up few things…

Unfortunately is not so simple to do a film out even if you buy the best colour management system, because it’s a very complicated task and evolves so many steps in the chain which I thing its for another forum...

For us it took two years of efforts to reach the point to have just +/- 1 printer light error at the film out.

There are no such thing like “good LUTs” for film out, there are only LUT’s specific to your display device current state and they have a life time of few days until your display needs to be recalibrated and re profiled and have a fresh LUT to work with and trust it.

I don’t won’t to repeat once more that grading in REC 709 on a broadcast monitor it’s not by any means accurate for film out, since they have a different white point, light level, and color saturation… Who ever says that grade in a broadcast monitor and then we gone fix it with a magical LUT… don’t expect to see on the screen what you saw on your monitor!

I thing the best way for RED is Log, but i'm not certain about that, in a few weeks we will have a real project with RED footage for a test film out. Typically I would select Log wherever is available, but I have a hunch that RED is a Linear beast.

The last six months we were beta testing a new innovative service that we are offering to Color users that will allow them to be able to do accurate film outs with WYSIWYG preview on their display devices (monitor or projector). The service includes 18 hours a day consulting until they ready to do a film out plus the actual film recording.

We just finished, three weeks ago, the beta test of the process with two new studios. The one was in Los Angeles area end we consult them on how to setup a proper Color suite for film out. They Color Grade a feature called “The gene generation” http://www.genegeneration.com shoot on Panavised Cinealta F900.

I was there with them, with the help of Skype and I was assisting them on every step. When there was a problem with Color they either call me or SMS and I was there… I was providing to them custom LUT’s every two days until they finished the movie. Something like a teleworking 2K DI consultant.

The same with Contact Studios in New York http://www.contactstudios.com, with them we finished a short movie 28 min long “Hollow Tree”, that was shoot on 3perf film 35mm scanned, conformed, Color graded in NY and film recorded here in Greece in our facility send back the developed negative with an answer print, and it was exactly as it was being seen on the JVC projector of the NY Color suite! Other labs requested from the producer for that job (just for color grade and film recording) 60K$ and the total with us was something like 7K$ plus the one off consulting fee 2Keuros (it’s only for the first time) a total of 10K$ and my client took something like 15K$ for Color grading so a total of 26K$...

Apple Color combined with our know how (the secret sauce as JP Owens says in Creative Cow Color forum) can easily trash big guys.

Our new web site with all these sample footages and the client’s testimonials will be up in couple of weeks.

How it works: Since beta period has ended, now the consulting is a one off paid service. We transfer to your company our know how for film out color management and DI 2K using Apple Color.

Except of the consulting package, the client has to buy (if he doesn't allready have them) a spectrophotometer (1100$) and a 24’’ CRT computer monitor (700$..) or a JVC projector. We are sending free of charge a software kit for custom display profiling.

Then we will setup the clients system, and teach him, how to calibrate his display device and how to profile it. The next step is to complete a full cycle test, he is selecting a one minute timeline, he color grading it as he wish, using our custom LUT for your session, you upload it on our FTP site and we film record it to our Lasergraphics film recorder or to Arri laser. We developing it, we print an answer print and we sending back the negative along with the answer print. The client going to his local lab project the test, he is evaluating the results and he is ready. He can also print an answer print from the negative in his local lab and compare it with our answer print to see how easy is then to do the copies locally. If he is not happy we return back the consulting fee.

It’s understood that the whole process is obligatory to record your films in our facility otherwise we can’t have a WYSIWYG for film out, because we take care the difficult part of the process which are the film recorder and the developing lab..

The costs of film recording are very competitive.

We can use our Lasergraphics for a camera negative film recording or our Arri Laser for internegative recording. Every time that a client going to have a project we will send him the LUTs free of charge. The consulting fee is only paid once. After that the LUTs are for free as long as you recording your films to us.

I’m at your disposal for any questions that you may have, at lakis@motionfx.gr

Unfortunately this service is not available for Greece, Cyprus, Balkans, Italy, and Turkey we don't won’t to have so immediate competition in our territory... Sorry guys…

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I can't quite get my head around that. I mean, it has to have some sort of color space. Each luminosity has to be recorded as a value. And if it's like still camera RAW formats, that's linear. Meaning that there's an exact correlation between the amount of photons going through the lens and the value that gets recorded.

I remembered where I read this. An article by Bruce Fraser, which is about still cameras, but I think would apply?

http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/understanding_digitalrawcapture.pdf

i see...he means its linear...so maybe i mix the things :)

[Mike Papadopoulos]

As a user of Color ex ”Final Touch” a have to clear up few things…

Unfortunately is not so simple to do a film out even if you buy the best colour management system, because it’s a very complicated task and evolves so many steps in the chain which I thing its for another forum...

For us it took two years of efforts to reach the point to have just +/- 1 printer light error at the film out.

There are no such thing like “good LUTs” for film out, there are only LUT’s specific to your display device current state and they have a life time of few days until your display needs to be recalibrated and re profiled and have a fresh LUT to work with and trust it.

I don’t won’t to repeat once more that grading in REC 709 on a broadcast monitor it’s not by any means accurate for film out, since they have a different white point, light level, and color saturation… Who ever says that grade in a broadcast monitor and then we gone fix it with a magical LUT… don’t expect to see on the screen what you saw on your monitor!

I thing the best way for RED is Log, but not certain about that, in a few weeks we will have a real project with RED footage for a test film out. Typically I would select Log wherever is available but I have a hunch that RED is a Linear beast.

The last six months we were beta testing a new innovative service that we are offering to Color users that will allow them to be able to do accurate film outs with WYSIWYG preview on their display devices (monitor or projector). The service includes 18 hours a day consulting until they ready to do a film out plus the actual film recording.

We just finished, three weeks ago, the beta test of the process with two new studios. The one was in Los Angeles area end we consult them on how to setup a proper Color suite for film out. They Color Grade a feature called “The gene generation” http://www.genegeneration.com shoot on Panavised Cinealta F900.

I was there with them, with the help of Skype and I was assisting them on every step. When there was a problem with Color they either call me or SMS and I was there… I was providing to them custom LUT’s every two days until they finished the movie. Something likes a teleworking 2K DI consultant.

The same with Contact Studios in New York http://www.contactstudios.com, with them we finished a short movie 28 min long “Hollow Tree”, that was shoot on 3perf film 35mm scanned, conformed, Color graded in NY and film recorded here in Greece in our facility send back the developed negative with an answer print, and it was exactly as it was being seen on the JVC projector of the NY Color suite! The guys from Duart requested from the producer for that job (just for color grade and film recording) 60K$ and the total with us was something like 7K$ plus the one off consulting fee 2Keuros (it’s only for the first time) a total of 10K$ and my client took something like 15K$ for Color grading so a total of 26K$...

Apple Color combined with our know how (the secret sauce as JP Owens says in Creative Cow Color forum) can easily trash big guys like Fotokem, Duart and others.

Our new web site with all these sample footages and the client’s testimonials will be up in couple of weeks.

How it works: Since beta period has ended, now the consulting is a one off paid service. We transfer to your company our know how for film out color management and DI 2K using Apple Color.

Except of the consulting package, the client has to buy a spectrophotometer and a 24’’ CRT monitor or a JVC projector. We are sending free of charge a software kit for custom display profiling.

Then we will setup the clients system, and teach him, how to calibrate his display device and how to profile it. The next step is to complete a full cycle test, he is selecting a one minute timeline, he color grading it as he wish, using our custom LUT for your session, you upload it on our FTP site and we film record it to our Lasergraphics film recorder or to our Arri laser. We developing it, we print an answer print and we sending back the negative along with the answer print. The client going to his local lab project the test, he is evaluating the results and he is ready. He can also print an answer print from the negative in his local lab and compare it with our answer print to see how easy is then to do the copies locally. If you are not happy we returning back the consulting fee.

It’s understood that the whole process is obligatory to record your films in our facility otherwise we can’t have a WYSIWYG for film out, because we take care the difficult part of the process which are the film recorder and the developing lab..

The costs of film recording are very competitive.

We can use our Lasergraphics for a camera negative film recording or our Arri Laser for internegative recording. Every time that a client going to have a project we will send him the LUTs free of charge. The consulting fee is only paid once. After that the LUTs are for free as long as you recording your films to us.

I’m at your disposal for any questions that you may have, at lakis@motionfx.gr

Interested to see your website when it goes online. By the way happy late independence day, although its being celebrated today in the states.

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Mike you meant our independence day… aren’t you a Greek American?

We thing to offer a free consulting for four clients with RED projects with only obligation to post there experience with our service in the RED user forum. The offer will include a 1 minute full cycle test for free. That’s includes negative recording, and answer print. Any opinions?

[M Most]

There are no such thing like “good LUTs” for film out, there are only LUT’s specific to your display device current state and they have a life time of few days until your display needs to be recalibrated and re profiled and have a fresh LUT to work with and trust it.

The part about LUTs being "good" meaning they're accurate to the display device I agree with. However, as far as "lifetime," what you say might be true with monitors and prosumer projectors, but it is absolutely untrue with proper digital cinema equipment. DLP Cinema projectors are amazingly stable beasts, with their output remaining almost completely constant over months and months of use. I recently measured our NEC iS8-2K projector, and found it to be within .002 on almost every measurement when compared to the first calibration - which was done almost 2 years ago. That certainly doesn't demand LUTs that get rebuilt every few days, and in fact, we're using the same LUT I built almost 6 months ago because quite frankly, it's just as accurate as it was then (we do check runs quite regularly). Of course, part of the difference here is that we're calibrated to Digital Cinema standards, and the projector is set up to represent the reference projector values as they are presented in the DCI specification, much as a properly set up CRT is designed to properly represent HD video color space. Profiling is necessary when a device must emulate another device, but when the device is set up to properly display the required standard, the primary purpose of a LUT is to get that display to properly represent something else - like a film print, for instance. Given a stable projector, and a properly measured print profile, there is no great magic to proper print preview.

What I don't quite understand is why you would be willing to do a film recording to intermediate stock and an answer print for the client on a 30 minute piece for only $7000 when the stock alone (intermediate and print) costs almost $5000, not to mention at least $700 in lab charges for the two passes - and that's assuming you don't need to make a second print. I don't care what color correction software is being used, a business needs to make a profit in order to survive. Giving things away is rarely a good way to ensure long term survival. The facilities you mentioned (FotoKem and DuArt) are not exactly known as the higher priced vendors. They charge a fair price for the services they offer and the products they create. And, by the way, they've both managed to stay in business for a very long time. They are clearly doing something right.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

mmost you are definitly an expert...

and very high quality (skill,experience,knowledge,hardware) costs something no question...

but 5000 USD for 30 min(stocks) is not cheap (also not quite expensive)...

maybe its a local thing, but here it is 20%-30% cheaper...

i know feature filmoutputs were made for less then 20 k USD...with quality involved..and they live really good...

he has an attractive price point i have to admit.

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Mmost.

The people that’s using Color as grading software is using very cost effective equipment to reach their goal. So a DCI compliant beast like the NEC projector, that’s being stated in your post, is by no means a “cost effective display” when compared to an FW900 Sony CRT monitor that can be bought for 500$ Grade A refurbished. For the people that can buy a projector such NEC is (that rents in the range of 6K$ per week!), it’s not a problem to buy Lustre or a Scratch workstation with a True light color management…

The achievement is to be able to do really professional color grading for film out with a Mac Pro an FCS2 studio, Glue tools and Crimson, a total cost of less than 12K$...

As for the 7K$ for the film out of the “Hollow tree”. The film out went through Lasergraphics Producer in 5201 Vision 2 Kodak camera negative. The film needed was 3 rolls of 1000ft that are selling in Greece for 739$ (which is expensive in US is selling 550$ Kodak pricelist) each, a total of 2213$, plus 1600$ for developing and answer print on 2393 Kodak Premier in the Kodak Cinelabs Greece (that are honored with the Image-Care Kodak logo) a total of 3813$ the rest is our labor… If it was print on our Arri laser on 2242 internegative the cost would be about 80% more… That’s it.

And in my personal experience printing on camera negative instead of internegative it has almost nothing to do with the quality of the result it just that camera negative can print 20 copies and internegative more than 200… Actually I can grade a piece on 5201 and another on 2242 and on projection you can’t see the difference…

I don’t thing that we give away our work. I just thing that Color will “democratize” color grading as RED has done the same on cameras…

email: lakis@motionfx.gr

[M Most]

a total of 3813$ the rest is our labor… If it was print on our Arri laser on 2242 internegative the cost would be about 80% more… That’s it.

And the cost of the film recorder. And its support and maintenance. And the cost of your building, the power to run it, your employees, shipping costs, Internet costs, infrastructure, etc, etc, etc. The cost of the materials is only the starting point. Your true cost of manufacture must take into account a lot of things you haven't mentioned. The only way what you're saying seems to make sense to me is if one is running essentially a one man operation that is located in the residence of the owner. Perhaps that is the case, perhaps not. I just think that the cost of the equipment needed by your client has little to nothing to do with with your own costs of running your business. The fact that they can get their equipment cheap doesn't mean you can too, and it doesn't mean that you have to severely discount what you have to offer. The only way that becomes sensible is if you can buy a reliable film recorder for as little as they pay for their Mac computer and Final Cut. And we both know that's not the case. As long as a film recorder costs what it does (and an ArriLaser is in the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars, with required maintenance support running close to $50K a year), the cost of services associated with it has absolutely nothing to do with what your clients may or may not be doing. It has to do with your real costs and what you can and must charge to make a fair profit on them.

BTW, the primary differences between camera negative and intermediate stocks are durability (as you've mentioned), and grain (intermediate stocks are practically grainless, and as a result are very, very slow, requiring more light for proper exposure). There are those (myself among them) who feel that camera stocks are in some ways more desirable for material that originated on a digital camera because they add a bit of film texture, while the intermediate stocks tend to give a "cleaner" result. Of course, that really depends on what the client prefers.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

can we open another thread and discuss there:
How much should a filmoutput cost? a business model for the 21st century.

lets get back to the Topic

1.Did someone really used COLOR for Filmoutput?
2. Your discussion about calibrating monitors and their quality still belongs into this thread.

thanks

[N. Keller]

I too would like to know about people's experience using LUTs from, say, Kodak Display Manager and Rising Sun Research with Apple Color. And what monitor would be decent enough without breaking the bank. (If you go with LCD, how about a Cinetal, for example?)

Also, it seems to me the one light correction going from the R3Ds to outputting your DPXs could be really essential to end up with a good DPX for color grading. And is a DPX really the best option? Can anyone give opinions on the best encode from the R3Ds in RedCine (assuming you're not using Scratch, in other words) if you're doing a film out?

On a side note, wouldn't it be nice to have a specific "Film Out Workflow" forum? Even with the 4K we're all mixed up in here.

Nayeli

[ilinx]

I second the film out forum.

Can Color use Kodak Display Manager LUTs?

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Mmost about the cost of ownership of the film recorders, yes you are right its top dollar, and we have heavily invested the last three years… As for our margin and or running costs, this is our problem, the client have nothing to do with the economies of scale that we done to achieve such a competitive result. At the end the film recorder is just a box, that you put film and data and its doing a job, it’s very simple as long as, the know how around it is in a high level, that's relating to service and color management wise. The quality is the same if it’s printed to us or to Duart… it’s the same machines and the same process. It just happens that we live in Greece…

As for your comment on internegative I agree, the digitally oriented images should be recorded on camera negative it gives a more organic look to them.

To the original question, does Color being used for filmouts?

Yes and with great success, I know more than 90 films that has being graded on Color and with DPX scanned material. Color’s only problem is the I/O, how you going to put in material and how you going to get it out, after the rendering. All the bugs are on these two processes. By using Glue tools and same very simple steps you can workaround these bugs and finish a project. I thing same day Apple (or Andrew) will fix these stupid bugs or someone that builds an external software like Crimson will fix the work flow. The grading session is flowless…

As for the monitoring question, which you guys are constantly asking…

As soon as you understand, monitoring is 100% related to the color management of the chain: Display LUT>Film emulsion>Film recorder LUT>Film developing stability>Positive film emulsion >Projection accuracy, you will save money big time!

If you got just the grading in house, you can't control almost nothing from that chain, regardless of the software that you using. You need a very very close collaboration (almost a love affair) with a Lab to achieve it.

Someone said on the Color forum once, that film out accuracy is “depending on the bath temperature, titration accuracy, phase of the moon, neap tide, swinging a chicken counter-clockwise instead of the other way around”…

You know guys, I’m still laughing with that, because he is right about that, it’s very hard to get WYSIWYG for film out, unless you can control all the above chain. And to do that you have to have, in house, a film recorder…

My client in L.A. Keith Collea had put a 6000$ down payment for an eCinema monitor… he end up to buy a Sony FW900 used for 299$, we calibrate it, send him a LUT, he done his full cycle test, project it on a theatre and was astonished from the result…

So guys if you don’t want me to tell you bullshit, you have to understand that filmout can be done accurately only with a carefully created 3DLUT SPECIFIC to your display device (current state), or go to a DI house that can guarantee the result (why do you thing they asking the money, for joke? No it’s called “know how”) …

So stop asking what monitor or what projector, there are good display devices that can get close to the film projection but that’s the70% of the road, the rest is 3DLUT and full control of the chain. (or a love affair with a lab… which for the reasons mmost has stated I don’t thing that it will be easy…)

As for the specific Film out thread I thing it’s a very good idea.

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

No, Color does not accept Kodak display manager LUT’s, for that you need the KDM production package that’s on 100K$ range…

Also all these small software’s, that are trying to emulate a proper film projection environment are taking for granted a series of assumptions (film emulsion, film development, state of the film recorder etc.) so the reality of a Lab has a difference of 30% at least which is enough to have a green sky instead of blue or to crash blacks and many more similar problems.

These software packages are for a DoP to play around with his footage and not for serious Color grading.

As for the Cinespace, I have to repeat you can get close, up to 85% but that could be just by luck.

IF YOU DON’T CONTROL THE FULL CHAIN YOU CAN'T HAVE AN ACURATE FILM OUT.-

Sorry for the tone but that’s the reality.

DPX in log should be more than enough to grade, since all the movies that are out there, and wining Oscars, have being done in that way (from DPX files). The question is, can Redcine produce a high quality linear to log conversion in order to accurately map the 12bits linear to 10 bits Log?

I thing yes, although I don’t have enough experience with RedCine.

PS. Sorry for my English but it’s not my native language…

[mezmo]

Hi Evangalos,
So as I understand it, using the Lasergraphics you could produce 100
minutes (5 reels) of 5201 and answer print for approx $25-30K U.S. using
FCP/COLOR, Gluetools, Crimson, Recine and a Sony RGB Computer monitor or JVC Projector
calibrated with your 3DLUT for client (in house) color grading of DPX RED originated material.
Have I missed anything and is this about the right price mentioned above?
Looking forward to seeing how all this works in the future.
Mezmo

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Memzo, that’s right, we are trying to fix some local problems with the VAT tax, if we make it, then it will be less than 25K$... there is also euro/dollar that is keep rising...

That does not include optical for sound, which is preferred to be done locally but if you still have a problem to do it, then we can also provide it.

The LUT’s will be per session and as many times are needed.

Of coarse a projector with a proper room would be better but this is up to the individual budged…

[mezmo]

Hi Evangelos,
Yes, Sound Neg and Release Printing done in my local Lab.
What JVC projector have you been working with?
And make that 3 for a Film-out forum on Reduser.
Mezmo

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Mezmo

The JVC DLA-HD100 is the one, with same tweaking it can work very well.
So you want to try it out? If so send me an email of list with your details to get in touch with you.

Email is lakis@motionfx.gr

If it’s confirmed another three to go for the free full cycle film out test with RED footage… The participations should be listed on that thread to have a first come first served.

[mezmo]

Hi Evangelos,
Thanks for the offer,I'm moving facilities at the moment. When I get
relocated and setup i'll email you.
Have your details noted.
Mezmo

[paul engstrom]

Hey Evangelos,

count me in too. just emailed you.

paul

[Tonaci Tran]

Count me in three..

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Paul and Tonaci have confirmed with emails the participation to the free ride for Apple Color film out.

Mezmo you haven’t send me an email to confirm your participation …

RED users, there is one more seat for the free ride to Apple Color film out (or two if mezmo does not confirm).

The offer is, free consulting for Apple Color to set up your display device for film grade with custom LUT’s including one minute film recording developing and answer print. With the obligation to post a thread in the forum about the experience with our film out process.

[Zach Hilton]

We'd love to participate if there is still an open slot! Sending you a PM.

[tylerhawes]

I'm late to this party (actually I've been lurking here for months and I think this is my first post in this forum).

Evangelos is right that you have to account for everything in the chain to properly color manage and get great film outs, and we do (I'll put our color science up against just about anyone). Mike Most is right that just because Color is cheap (although it was $25K for me when we invested a few years ago), the rest of a proper DI setup is still expensive (our SAN, projector, construction and TALENT are all much more expensive). In fact, whether we invest in Lustre or Color or whatever, it is overall merely a fractional change in costs ammortized over time when you factor everything in.

Mike is also right about the stability of the digital cinema projectors. At first we calibrated every few days, then every week, then once a month. Now we calibrate every three months unless we notice something (we are so familiar with the projector I am sure I'd notice anything significant) because it is just a waste of time. It takes about six hours for our color profile test to run, so it's a good thing we don't have to do it all the time. But we have a quick 20 minute confidence test that will simply verify that things are working right, and we do that once a week.

We use Color for our DI work because I prefer it and we've already spent a lot of time and money developing our own in-house tools to work around many of its shortcomings, so it is not an off-the-shelf configuration. Still, I keep up on all the systems and am watching with interest to see what happens at NAB, as we consider if we'll switch horses. We work on a digital cinema projector on a 15-ft. screen, have an entirely 3D color-managed pipeline that accounts for colorspace, projector, chosen film stock, and the particular Arri Laser recorder we are outputting on.

I've personally worked on over 30 features with FinalTouch/Color, and the clients have been extremely happy with the filmouts. I myself have been surprised how darn close they match to the digital projection since we've come to really master the color science. It is never perfect, but barring a butterfly split-screen test, it'd be hard to say what's wrong with it.

Anyway, it was asked if anyone is actually using Color in a DPX workflow and doing filmouts, and we can definitely say YES, that is all we do. We're supporting three RED features right now throughout production, editorial and DI. We're in LA to help.

[Stu Maschwitz]

there are three types of Colorspaces

1. log (for filmoutput)
2. video gamma corrected linear
3. linear (gamma 1.0)

read this article of STU of ProLost

http://prolost.blogspot.com/2005/05/log-is-new-lin.html

I know I'm jumping in late here, but better late than never? 90% of the confusion earlier in this thread is due to people incorrectly using the term "linear" to describe gamma-encoded images (such as Rec709).

Linear is linear. Gamma 1.0. Anything else is not linear. Number 2 above should be "Gamma encoded," pure and simple.

Sometimes people refer to gamma-encoded images as "perceptually linear," but that term should really only be applied to log images. I'm trying to use that term less since it only adds to the confusion.

Graeme N. is a proponent of never saying simply "linear" but always going the extra step of saying "linear light" so that folks don't confuse proper use of the term "linear" with the historically bogus use of it to describe the very non-linear spaces of video. Threads like this help demonstrate why.

-Stu

[Zach Hilton]

using the term "linear" to describe gamma-encoded images (such as Rec709).

Linear is linear. Gamma 1.0. Anything else is not linear. Nubmer 3 above should be "Gamma encoded," pure and simple.
-Stu Thanks for chiming in Stu, I'm still trying to find time to read your blog or whatever you want to call it. Question for you though. So what I export from Redcine in REC709 < DPX is gamma-encoded? There is so much new stuff to learn. All very exciting, but also overwhelming.

[Gunleik Groven]

can we open another thread and discuss there:
How much should a filmoutput cost? a business model for the 21st century.

lets get back to the Topic

1.Did someone really used COLOR for Filmoutput?
2. Your discussion about calibrating monitors and their quality still belongs into this thread.

thanks

In Norway, many films are now graded in COLOR after the last year.

Gunleik

[Stu Maschwitz]

Yes, Rec709 is gamma-encoded. It's not a "pure" gamma transfer function, but there's no better term.

Anything that "looks right" on your monitor without a LUT is gamma encoded.

-Stu

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Stu you know one zillion times more then me...

will you write a RED Rebel guide?

And can you point me to the right direction in your blog where you describe
VFX in AE in relation to Cplorspaceworkflows( lin/gamma encoded/log ) and exporting as DPX log Files...

If you have covered these topic for sure.

thanks

[Cüneyt Kaya]

1. log (for filmoutput)
2. video gamma corrected linear
3. linear (gamma 1.0)





Linear is linear. Gamma 1.0. Anything else is not linear. Nubmer 3 above should be "Gamma encoded," pure and simple.
-Stu


why should number three be "gamma encoded"....number 3 is linear(gamma 1.0)?

or do you mean nr. 2

[Stu Maschwitz]

why should number three be "gamma encoded"....number 3 is linear(gamma 1.0)?

or do you mean nr. 2

Oops, typo. Meant #2, thanks! I've gone back and fixed it.

-Stu

[Ido Karilla]

I intend to grade 10 bit log DPX's with color. I am working on a jvc studio reference LCD monitor (Israeli budgets). I inted to calibrate it with cinespace and imply 3DLUTs when I will finaly get to understand the how and why. mean wile I calibrated my monitors with the oneeyedisplay 2 and send a first test to our local LAB. Our Lab makes only the negative with the Difinity and sends it to print in an other Lab ( this time somewere in London).
I did not make a lot of changes to the shots, just calibrated the luma curve with a typical s curve; so that the blacks reach the ground and the whites wont clip, and a bit of sharpening.
Imust say I was very impressed from the potential of the image but very disapointed with the overall outcome:
1. the blacks where lifted considerably.
2. There was a blue noise all over the blacks.
3. There was an overall to much grain/noise.
4. The image was pale, not alive.

can you expirienced pepole guide me on what should I consider on my next test to achive optimal results.

Thanks.

[Stu Maschwitz]

1. the blacks where lifted considerably.
2. There was a blue noise all over the blacks.
3. There was an overall to much grain/noise.
4. The image was pale, not alive.

That sounds like a good description of a log image. Film scans in Cineon log format look much like what you describe above. Then you pop that cineSpace LUT on them and boom, nice contrasty film, with a soft s-curve and purty colors.

In other words, you'll probably find that you want to skip the s-curve in RED Alert and simply export nice clean log images to grade under that LUT.

-Stu

[Ido Karilla]

Stu, thanks for the reply.
I need to get to the bottom of this so some more questions if you do not mind.

1. The Lut I will imply will make the image look different on my monitor. I will grade it with the implied LUT and get a better result. but what about the scopes? I did take the blaks down, does the implementation of a LUT make me take them down even more?
2. How do I take into account the two emultions participating for the negative and for the positive, grain point of view?
3. I have tried exporting DPX as well as AJA KONA 10 bit uncompressed (lin and log) QT's as grading matirial. What would be the differnce in terms of calibration, if any, using each one of them for grading?

Thanks again.

Ido.

[Stu Maschwitz]

You will get to the bottom of it quicker than you think when you get your LUTs in place. Your friends at RSR and at your filmout facility will be able to answer those questions.

-Stu

[Ido Karilla]

Thanks again.
I will start playing with those LUT's and hope for the best, from where I stand it looks like a tuff climb. Can you point on a comprehensive book or other resource on this subject?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge, excuse my ignorance, I come from a very different background to this realm.


Ido.

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Karilla if you read back in that thread, there is a free film out test offering from us, with all the consulting needed to do the custom LUTs and calibrate your display device and still there is one position open

The offering is for 1 minute film out including all stocks plus answer print, with custom LUT’s created for your setup specifically. All that with free consulting in order to do the full cycle test with WYSIWYG for film out. Just send me an email to lakis@motionfx.gr.

There are all ready another three studios that are registered for this free ride, one position is still empty…