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Rob Anderson
11-20-2013, 04:23 AM
I'm going to continuously update this thread with info regarding the RED Dragon sensor and our experiences with it.

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 14th
RED Dragon #15 (carbon fiber) received by Blackwood Cinema. The carbon fiber ships in the standard EPIC-M carrying case. First impression, immediately upon removing the body from the case, is how much lesser weighted than the Epic-X it really is. One pound (453.3 grams) absolutely makes a difference. It is noticeably lighter and ever so slightly [magnesium PL mount] front heavy. Beautifully constructed. Having spent a lot of time in and around race cars, I can definitely say the quality of the carbon fiber is top-notch. All of the standard M3 hex screws are in the same places (albeit they're uniquely red for the CF models). Both the front and top fans are the 2.0 upgrades. Front of camera has "DRAGON 6K" marking beneath lens mount and "RED" in relief and "DRAGON" inlaid-recessed, flanking the SSD mount.

Sturdy and well-constructed, just like the full body Epic-X but now with one hell of a good looking carbon fiber jacket.

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_fullbody.jpg

Bonus: March 15th is my birthday (Ides) and I've always had a special affinity for the number. Nice to have #00015 on the bottom. As the carbon fibers are 'M' models, I'll have to see if that means I finally get a thread on the 'EPIC-M OWNERS' board.

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_15.jpg

I assume RED made their own red-colored M5 body screws. I was recently on a shoot where the DP brought his own Epic and he had red screws from a popular after-market supplier and one was broken off below the crown (screw post permanently lodged into his SSD module). His fault for over-torquing the screw but I also suggest caution against using anything other than warranty'able RED bolts and parts.

http://blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_ssd.jpg

FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 15th
After a quick run of tests with the lone Ultra Prime I had on hand, I was able to get 6K FF 1/2 resolution playback with an nVidia Titan GPU on a Mac Pro (2012 12-core with 128 GB RAM and Quad-SSD RAID 0). Surprisingly great performance. For just $1k and to have something compatible with both Mac (as of Mavericks) and PC, this will give Scarlet and indie productions a fast leg up on handling their RED footage. If the RED Rocket is just out of your range, RED did a huge favor by implementing GPU support and even with Dragon 6K footage at 1/2 resolution, you're still getting a lot of bang for your buck.

You don't need to waste any extra money buying a TITAN card from an after-market supplier or so-called "Mac Video Hack". Thanks to a major boost in the arm by Apple and the introduction of Mavericks OS X, all you need is the off-the-shelf TITAN or TITAN SuperClocked. Plug and play. Use the standard Apple motherboard power leads with a 6-pin to 8-pin cable converter. PC users... A lot less work and a lot more bang.

http://blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_titan.jpg


However, I was itching for a little heavy-lifting extra help. 1/2 resolution is nice but after becoming accustomed to working with 5K Epic footage across 5 RED Rockets (JMR BlueStore PCIe Expansion System), I wasn't about to step down. After a quick call to RED, I arranged to pickup my pre-ordered RED ROCKET-X. Now we're cooking with fire.

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_redrocket.jpg

A few hours after pickup, the RED ROCKET-X took the place of a 16x PCIe lane previously occupied by a JMR expansion board. Running with both the Titan GPU and the ROCKET-X, I am blown away. We're slicing and grading 6K FF footage, with alchemy enabled, as if it was 720p. The RED ROCKET-X is every bit the Dragon devouring monster RED has suggested. In fact, I was so overly impressed by the result, I'm thinking the true performance of this thing has been understated. RED's being modest. The ROCKET-X is awesome. The companion purchase discount is a definite green light. The ROCKET-X should be considered a must-have with any Dragon purchase and Producers have got to start asking for one on set.

The claim is the ROCKET-X performs somewhere around 5x that of the current RED ROCKET. I believe that claim. And while a $1k Titan GPU is going to give you excellent bang for the bucket, if you're in the business of producing RED projects, you're an editor, you're VFX/post, DIT, or any of a handful of other folks that work with R3Ds day in and out, spare yourself and indulge. The ROCKET-X is the definitive RED camera companion.

With that said, Apple and partners have got to get to work on TB2 expansion chassis. I know mLogic has demonstrated one, but those things have got to come sooner than later if the new Mac Pro is going to have a top-tier relevance in this Dragonized-world.

Special notes:

RED ROCKET-X will not work outside of a 16x PCIe lane.
The original RED ROCKET will not work with Dragon R3Ds. (As of most recent driver+firmware and seems unlikely to change).


SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 16th
Build-up time. Spent a little while kitting out the Dragon in my favorite light-weight configuration using the following RED components:

9" Touch Pro monitor
Tactical Top Plate 2.0
DSMC Tactical Right Z Adapter
Sliding Top Handle
Mounting Plate (DSMC)
LCD/EVF Cable (right-to-right) 7"
Swat Rail 100mm
Module Adapter
Quickplate Module (v-lock)
The new Quickplate Module is fantastic. No more AC cable to plug into the brain and now you can run and gun with a second v-lock on a belt-clip or drop the cam off on a tripod, plug in, swap batteries, disconnect AC and keep shooting. I strongly prefer this because I have an all v-lock workflow. Lights, cameras, monitors, you name it. Everything is v-lock. I prefer to not mess with maintaining a set of REDVOLTS and the Quickplate Module solves the only drawback I had. Plus it's clean, streamlined, and snaps to the body. The extra Aux power ports are a bonus and I put those to use on a Paralinx wireless unit as-well-as various follow focus receivers.

I'm also a big fan of the Pro I/O. Thanks to the module system, you can easily toss the Pro I/O to save weight with just two quarter twists of a torx screw. Amazing.

http://blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_proio.jpg

The 9" Touch Pro is another must-have. If you're still shooting with a 5", you're missing out. We now have two of the 9" Touch Pros and throwing both of them onto an Epic/Dragon (via the Pro I/O) is awesome. I haven't been shooting as long as many of you and for me, having the 9" to make sure I'm grabbing focus has been instrumental in getting my work buttoned down.

http://blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_sidebattery.jpg

This is the camera in profile with what I call my run-and-gun configuration:

http://blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_profile.jpg

Losing the Pro I/O module saves a few pounds. But if I'm on sticks or mounts, it's always on for me. The second monitor input (while still leaving HDMI open for my wireless Paralinx module), plus the audio inputs and additional power, jam, and sync ports make the Pro I/O a very good module.

I've become a huge fan of the RED quick mount/release system. We use Miller 100mm and 150mm fluid head mounts on Arrow (carbon fiber) sticks, Miller high-hat, mitchell mounts, RED Gunner shoulders, 19mm rails with matte boxes and follow focus, etc etc. We even have an R90 that we use surprisingly often.

http://blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_r90.jpg

Nothing is faster on set and we've come to rely on the RED Universal Quick Release System.

We are currently in the process of custom-building our own components built off of the RED Universal Quick Release mounts...

SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 17th
Loaded up and ready to rock for another afternoon of testing. Nikon lens testing time. Although mass-produced and built for still photography, the Nikon 'G-series' of lenses have seriously impressed me. They're fast, cheap, light, and easy to handle. The RED Nikon mount fully supports them and the electronics and motors allow for software tricks like touch focus and dialing in racks. It may be passé to talk about this in the 'pro' world and I get shit for it all the time, but I don't care. Nikons are great and RED did a fantastic job making them really fun to use with the Epic and now the Dragon. Plus, using them forces better focus discipline.

http://blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_nikon3.jpg

We've got the 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm, 105mm macro, 14-24mm, 24-70mm, 70-200mm, and 65mm macro. All wonderful lenses with the 50mm and 85mm being absolutely superb. (I shot a fashion film called TIME PIECE on Nikon http://vimeo.com/74359892, among others.)

Plus we have mounts for PL (titanium, magnesium, and motion), Leica, and Canon. We have each type of mount for every Epic and Dragon body we own. Whatever glass you want to use, we're game. Pick a flavor.

We tested all of our Nikons and of course the primes covered full frame without vignetting.

http://blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_nikon.jpg

http://blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_nikon4.jpg

In addition to the Nikons, we also tested a full set of ARRI Ultra Primes (gorgeous) and Schneider Xenar III's. I have a set of Xenon primes on pre-order and will post results once I've shot with those.

Shot on Nikon 85mm 2.2 86fps 6K at 200 ISO:

http://blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_fire750.jpg

Yep. The Dragon is pretty fucking incredible.




Bigger: http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/dragon_fire.jpg

Rob Anderson
11-20-2013, 04:23 AM
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 19th
Started this thread to keep a running log of early experiences with the Dragon. Hope you guys enjoy this and find it useful. I'll keep it updated over the next week or two.

Next up on my slate are two personal projects that should make the Dragon really shine. Animals, water, dancers, big drops, and maybe an explosion or two. I think you'll like the result... First one films later today.

Thanks to everyone at RED for building such a wicked system. In particular but in no particular order we'd like to thank: Jarred, Clark, Colin, Nick, Jennifer, Brian, Brent, Michael, and McClain. You guys are amazing. Jim: THANK YOU. And also thanks to Phil and Jeff for all of the invaluable information you guys shared leading up to us falling head-long into this wonderful rabbit hole.

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 20th
A lot of people are asking questions about the RED ROCKET-X and how it relates to the Dragon, Dragon vs. the Epic, and RED ROCKET-X vs. ROCKET.

As I mentioned before, the 'original' RED ROCKET is not compatible with Dragon footage, even if shot at 5K or under. You will see a warning popup in REDCINE regarding this incompatibility and the app will switch to software rendering mode. I have no idea if this will change in the future, but for now I'd assume the RED ROCKET (original) is incompatible with anything shot on Dragon. This may or may not be a big deal to you. Personally speaking, there are some 10's of thousands of RED Epics and RED Ones in the world today. I think the Rocket has a perfectly relevant place and will continue to be a valuable piece of hardware. However, the RED ROCKET-X simply blows away the ROCKET in every other possible measurement, I'm gladly kissing mine goodbye. (We will keep one in a breakout box for DIT work or dailies rendering for Epic shoots.)

ROCKET-X is longer than the ROCKET and requires a bit of wrangling to squeeze into a Mac Pro. It's obviously designed to fit, but you'll need to bump and slant things to get situated. The ROCKET-X comes with a PCIe 6-pin to dual 6-pin splitter so that you can power your graphics card and the ROCKET-X with one lead.

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rocketx_macpro.jpg

As I mentioned earlier, I have a TITAN and a RED ROCKET-X both installed into a 2012 Mac Pro. First I have the #2 PCIe power cable coming out of the Mac Pro motherboard (mini 6-pin) connected to a 6-pin to 8-pin conversion cable. This is then plugged directly into the TITAN card.

Next, I removed the original mini 6-pin to 6-pin cable from the Mac Pro motherboard PCIe power slot #1 and replaced it with the RED ROCKET-X included mini 6-pin to dual 6-pin cable. I connected the first 6-pin lead to the TITAN and the second to the RED ROCKET-X.

When the RED ROCKET-X is running, it's fan-noisy. Not overbearing by any stretch, but it is significantly louder than a TITAN and clearly audible. I'd call it loud. After inactivity, it quiets down to a sleep state and the fan appears to turn off or at least low-idle.

To give you some idea as to how much better rendering times are with a ROCKET-X, I pulled a 4 GB test file shot 6K FF on the RED Dragon.

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rocketx_r3d2.jpg

I did not balance or grade this footage. The R3D exists on a single SSD. REDCINE-X Build 21.3 Beta

First I rendered to a 444 4K UHD quicktime WITHOUT the TITAN and the RED ROCKET-X enabled.

SOFTWARE RENDER ONLY (444 4K UHD): 41 minutes 24 seconds

Second, I rendered with the TITAN-only enabled.

TITAN GPU ONLY (444 4K UHD): 2 minutes 31 seconds

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rocketx_titan.jpg

Third, I rendered with the RED ROCKET-X enabled, only.

RED ROCKET-X (444 4K UHD): 2 minutes 3 seconds

Last, I rendered with both the TITAN and the RED ROCKET-X enabled.

TITAN GPU AND RED ROCKET-X (444 4K UHD): 1 minute 16 seconds

Without GPU or ROCKET-X acceleration, the 4K UHD render took 2484 seconds. With GPU it took 151 seconds. With the RR-X only it took 123 seconds. With GPU and RED ROCKET-X both 76 seconds.

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rocketx_4kuhd_export.jpg

Conclusion: RED ROCKET-X acceleration with a TITAN GPU on a 2012 Mac Pro (12-core w/ 128 GB RAM) rendering to/from an SSD is 33x faster than software alone and when paired with a TITAN GPU, you can double the performance of the RR-X. Pretty damn impressive.

Note that RED has said they are working on enabling multi-GPU rendering in REDCINE-X. No telling when that's coming or what kind of result you're going to get with it, but for the time being, the best way to double-down on your performance is to pair a TITAN with an RR-X. And with the Titan priced at $1k, that's not a bad deal at all.

For everyone else concerned with the price of the RED ROCKET-X, RED has always maintained the RR/RR-X's are for commercial work where the price of a card is not a significant factor for the production. They're not aiming these things at indie shooters or owner/ops on a tight budget. And for you guys in that segment (a lot of Scarlet owners, soon to be Dragon DP's and many more, I'm sure) the GPU rendering addition to REDCINE-X is a damn good gift.

Here are render times with all of the above, plus TITAN + RED ROCKET-X burning through 422 (HQ) dailies, 444 1080p friendlies, and 444 4K UHD deliverables.

SOFTWARE RENDER ONLY (444 4K UHD): 41 minutes 24 seconds
TITAN GPU ONLY (444 4K UHD): 2 minutes 31 seconds
RED ROCKET-X (444 4K UHD): 2 minutes 3 seconds
TITAN GPU AND RED ROCKET-X (444 4K UHD): 1 minute 16 seconds
TITAN GPU AND RED ROCKET-X (444 1080p): 1 minute 12 seconds
TITAN GPU AND RED ROCKET-X (422 HQ 1080p): 57 seconds


http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rocketx_renders.jpg

4 GB R3D 6K FF down to a 422 (HQ) 1080p, 444 1080p, and 444 4K UHD in 3 minutes and 3 seconds... Damn I love RED.

SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 23rd
Sharing one of the many projects I've been working on lately.

Shot with friend and performer Dave Locke on a Cyr Wheel, with the Dragon. Used mixed lighting, mixed frames, mixed ISO, and more. Bought "DJ lights" for $100 and generally abused the Dragon sensor as much as I could. Overcranked, RC 18:1, kept ISO low, room dark, lots of atmospheric effects to screw with light and... You name it.

A majority of this footage was shot and transcoded to web at 250 ISO and 24-86 fps. Thanks to the workflow I outlined above (and the RED ROCKET-X in particular), I was able to shoot, offload, quick grade, edit, and transcode to web all on the same night.

Music by David Bowie. One man crew (Me). Performer Dave Locke. Equipment Blackwood Cinema.


https://vimeo.com/80197506


Thanks for watching.

MONDAY, DECEMBER 1st
Screen grabs from another personal project. Edit coming soon.

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rope_blackwoodcinema01_sml.jpg

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rope_blackwoodcinema02_sml.jpg

If you'd like to download a sample R3D from this shoot, here you go:
http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rope_snip.zip

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 4th
I finished the grade on the ROPE shoot. Here's a screen cap:
http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/blackwoodcinema_joshfried_rope_sml.jpg

MORE COMING.

WANT TO SEE FOR YOURSELF?
Come on over or bring us out to your production. We're Blackwood Cinema, Las Vegas. Production, services, workflow, rentals, and DIT like you wouldn't believe. Thanks!

Dominik Muench
11-20-2013, 04:39 AM
SWEET MOTHER ^^

How you can have the patience and willpower of writing all this, so nicely formatted and color coded and taking all these pictures with a dragon on your desk.....I would have organised myself an IV so I wont have to eat and drink, grabbed a trunk full of V locks and would be out shooting 24/7 for the next couple of weeks lol

thanks for keeping us up to date. cant wait to see some footage.

Mikael Lubtchansky
11-20-2013, 04:42 AM
Congrats Rob ! Nice set of toys you have there !
I'm shooting in Dallas this week with 2 Scarlets but if I travel again to US soon and visit Las Vegas I'd sure love to pop in and say hello !

keep us posted with your Dragon experience !

Mikael

luigivaltulini
11-20-2013, 04:46 AM
NICE NICE ROB , thanks.

Carbon is a beast :)

Matthew Scott
11-20-2013, 05:01 AM
Yeah man, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. Enjoying :)

Filip Orlandic
11-20-2013, 05:07 AM
Everything looks terrific including your Nikkor lens set!

Zeb B
11-20-2013, 05:52 AM
Cool! What is the best posted Dragon footage to date? Are the Carbon owners under an NDA that prevents them from uploading raw footage?

Ryan Flesher
11-20-2013, 06:52 AM
Are the CF dragons still using Redcode3, rg3 or are they shipping with new color science?

Ryan

Dan Kanes
11-20-2013, 07:45 AM
Very nice writeup man!

Detlev Eller
11-20-2013, 07:51 AM
...

Yep. The Dragon is pretty fucking incredible.



.... that sums it up pretty well ... :-)

KETCH ROSSi
11-20-2013, 07:56 AM
Congrats ROB!!

Martin Stevens
11-20-2013, 08:18 AM
Awesome!

SUNILPREM
11-20-2013, 08:36 AM
Great Write up.Keep coming........

Phil Bates
11-20-2013, 09:04 AM
Thank you for sharing!

Elsie N
11-20-2013, 09:28 AM
Well-conceived, well-written, well-illustrated...I've run out of descriptive terms. I especially liked the attention paid to Dragon/Nikon lenses.

Rob, I find your Dragon impressions very useful.

Jett He
11-20-2013, 09:34 AM
Droool... Love the post!

Phil Holland
11-20-2013, 10:38 AM
Congrats Rob. It's been good having those late night chats. Also congrats on the new glass on the way!

Will Keir
11-20-2013, 10:51 AM
WHAT!?! Titan plug and play now in Mavericks? Ridiclous. How much faster is a titan than the GTX680? I'm on a 2009 Mac Pro and only getting 1/4th smooth playback in Premiere and RCX.

Not just what is just "$1k." Surely a Mac Pro with that much ram and the GFX card cannot be that cheap.


I
After a quick run of tests with the lone Ultra Prime I had on hand, I was able to get 6K FF 1/2 resolution playback with an nVidia Titan GPU on a Mac Pro (2012 12-core with 128 GB RAM and Quad-SSD RAID 0). Surprisingly great performance. For just $1k and to have something compatible with both Mac (as of Mavericks) and PC, this will give Scarlet and indie productions a fast leg up on handling their RED footage. If the RED Rocket is just out of your range, RED did a huge favor by implementing GPU support and even with Dragon 6K footage at 1/2 resolution, you're still getting a lot of bang for your buck.

You don't need to waste any extra money buying a TITAN card from an after-market supplier or so-called "Mac Video Hack". Thanks to a major boost in the arm by Apple and the introduction of Mavericks OS X, all you need is the off-the-shelf TITAN or TITAN SuperClocked. Plug and play. Use the standard Apple motherboard power leads with a 6-pin to 8-pin cable converter. PC users... A lot less work and a lot more bang.

Will Keir
11-20-2013, 11:00 AM
Rob,

Can I come over? hahaha Sounds like you have an awesome facility at Blackwood. Thanks for the post, wish you would make a video too!

Maik Müller
11-20-2013, 01:24 PM
Congratulations!
Great read, thanks for sharing your thoughts and making me jealous. ;)

Have a lot of fun with that beast.

Joseph Seuferling
11-20-2013, 03:12 PM
Did I read right that Dragon R3D's are not compatible with the original Red Rocket card? Meaning my RR will be useless after the Dragon upgrade?

Jonnie Sirotek
11-20-2013, 03:57 PM
Did I read right that Dragon R3D's are not compatible with the original Red Rocket card? Meaning my RR will be useless after the Dragon upgrade?

Curious about this as well!

Rob Anderson
11-20-2013, 07:53 PM
Did I read right that Dragon R3D's are not compatible with the original Red Rocket card? Meaning my RR will be useless after the Dragon upgrade?
Lots of questions about the RED ROCKET-X hopefully answered in the update I just posted, including this. (No, the RED Rocket card is not compatible with Dragon footage of any size -- at least not currently and probably unlikely moving forward.)

Rob Anderson
11-20-2013, 07:55 PM
Congrats Rob. It's been good having those late night chats. Also congrats on the new glass on the way!
Thanks Phil. As discussed, I hope to make the Schneider Xenon prime set the only set I carry.

Matt Ryan
11-20-2013, 07:58 PM
Hey Rob, great write-up. Any chance you'll be posting some footage? We all want to see that new Dragon sensor calibrated footage!

Rob Anderson
11-20-2013, 08:07 PM
Hey Rob, great write-up. Any chance you'll be posting some footage? We all want to see that new Dragon sensor calibrated footage!
Absolutely. I've been squeezing in these posts and lots of test work with the sensor, RR-X, etc while finishing up a few prior obligations. But we did some shooting today and we've got another big day tomorrow and again on Saturday. I'll have lots of things that are great to look at this weekend.

Someone earlier asked if the Dragon is still using REDcolor3 and REDgamma3 -- yes it is.

rod bradley
11-20-2013, 09:38 PM
Thanks for the meticulous report -- you're generous to do it. Pleasure working with (and learning from)you on the Iggy shoot.

Kemalettin Sert
11-20-2013, 10:38 PM
Whoa Titan does same thing with RRX..sure im gonna get that card in soon! whether for debayering or gaming :) its a win win situation for both..

Caleb Heymann
11-20-2013, 11:15 PM
Thank you so much for posting the benchmarks Rob! Titan seems like a very useful option for those who can't afford a Rocket. Any experience using it with a Retina Macbook? Ever put it in an external chassis? Sonnet's website is down right now so I can't see if it's compatible with the Echo.

Rob Anderson
11-20-2013, 11:28 PM
Thank you so much for posting the benchmarks Rob! Titan seems like a very useful option for those who can't afford a Rocket. Any experience using it with a Retina Macbook? Ever put it in an external chassis? Sonnet's website is down right now so I can't see if it's compatible with the Echo.
The big problem is power. TITAN requires a 6-pin and an 8-pin PCIe connector plus the 75w off of the PCIe 16x slot. Getting a chassis to do that is the first problem, GPU over Thunderbolt is problem #2. Getting that kind of power into the card will require an expansion chassis above and beyond a Thunderbolt dock. Rackmounted stuff at a few $k a pop and you're still going to reduce performance of the card. For what you're looking for waiting it out to see what TB2 delivers is your best bet. mLogic has an RR-X thunderbolt 2 solution and that will probably be the better way to go.

Kemalettin Sert
11-20-2013, 11:31 PM
The big problem is power. TITAN requires a 6-pin and an 8-pin PCIe connector plus the 75w off of the PCIe 16x slot. Getting a chassis to do that is the first problem, GPU over Thunderbolt is problem #2. Getting that kind of power into the card will require an expansion chassis above and beyond a Thunderbolt dock. Rackmounted stuff at a few $k a pop and you're still going to reduce performance of the card. For what you're looking for waiting it out to see what TB2 delivers is your best bet. mLogic has an RR-X thunderbolt 2 solution and that will probably be the better way to go.
read so many thing about that how did you come up you can run GPU on retina via TB? you are first says thats doable..

Rob Anderson
11-20-2013, 11:51 PM
read so many thing about that how did you come up you can run GPU on retina via TB? you are first says thats doable..
I never mention MacBook Pro's in this thread. Not sure where that came from...? I tried jamming a TITAN into a Sonnet enclosure with an additional PSU crammed into a case. Got the thing to power on and get functional thanks to Thunderbolterizer but found absolutely zero performance benefit and far more trouble and expense than it was worth. Until TB2 comes along, successfully running something like a TITAN card in an external box isn't going to happen.

Everything I've been posting in this thread has been specific to one of my 2012 Mac Pro towers. However... I am about to post something cool regarding the MacBook Pro 2012 Retinas in another thread...

Kemalettin Sert
11-21-2013, 12:25 AM
Thanks Rob for the clarification.

Will Keir
11-21-2013, 01:58 AM
Gaming! Yup, if your gonna spend the big bucks at least get a few games out of it too. What makes are popular with you guys in Turkey?

Using Bootcamp on a mac?


Whoa Titan does same thing with RRX..sure im gonna get that card in soon! whether for debayering or gaming :) its a win win situation for both..

Will Keir
11-21-2013, 02:01 AM
Rob,

Does your mac pro fit the Titan in the first x16 slot and the RRX in the end x16? Titan is a double slot card, correct? Then how many slots do you have left and what are you using them for? What about your hard drive setup? SSD in bay 1 or bays 1-4 in Raid 0 with spinning media?

Kemalettin Sert
11-21-2013, 02:09 AM
Gaming! Yup, if your gonna spend the big bucks at least get a few games out of it too. What makes are popular with you guys in Turkey?

Using Bootcamp on a mac?

nope no bootcamp on mac.my setup latest retina with magma 3T for now.Hope Redrocket-X fits in magma :)
im looking hackintosh solutions after this day now.would like to see 3 way SLI titan performance over RRX.

Rob Anderson
11-21-2013, 02:14 AM
Rob,

Does your mac pro fit the Titan in the first x16 slot and the RRX in the end x16? Titan is a double slot card, correct? Then how many slots do you have left and what are you using them for? What about your hard drive setup? SSD in bay 1 or bays 1-4 in Raid 0 with spinning media?

Yes, the TITAN card is a double-width GPU. In the Mac Pro I've been posting specifically about, this is the config (from top to bottom of Mac Pro in vertical orientation):
4x PCIe 2-port eSATA and 2-port USB 3.0 hub
4x SAS ATTO card (connected to a JMR PCI expansion and an 18-drive RAID)
16x PCIe RED ROCKET-X (6-pin power shared with TITAN)
16x PCIe TITAN GPU (6-pin power shared with RR-X + 6-pin to 8-pin adapted power)

1x SuperDrive
2x SSD (individual drives) in empty SuperDrive port
4x SSD (RAID 0) in HDD slots 1-4

Will Keir
11-21-2013, 03:38 AM
Ah, you went with 4x SSDs in HDD slots 1-4. Interesting.

Which drives did you go with and how large are the volumes? How quick does that Tower boot up with that SSD Raid 0?

Thanks Rob.


Yes, the TITAN card is a double-width GPU. In the Mac Pro I've been posting specifically about, this is the config (from top to bottom of Mac Pro in vertical orientation):
4x PCIe 2-port eSATA and 2-port USB 3.0 hub
4x SAS ATTO card (connected to a JMR PCI expansion and an 18-drive RAID)
16x PCIe RED ROCKET-X (6-pin power shared with TITAN)
16x PCIe TITAN GPU (6-pin power shared with RR-X + 6-pin to 8-pin adapted power)

1x SuperDrive
2x SSD (individual drives) in empty SuperDrive port
4x SSD (RAID 0) in HDD slots 1-4

Will Keir
11-21-2013, 03:39 AM
So are you pushing the max power with this config?



16x PCIe RED ROCKET-X (6-pin power shared with TITAN)
16x PCIe TITAN GPU (6-pin power shared with RR-X + 6-pin to 8-pin adapted power)

Will Keir
11-21-2013, 03:40 AM
3 titans SLIed?!


nope no bootcamp on mac.my setup latest retina with magma 3T for now.Hope Redrocket-X fits in magma :)
im looking hackintosh solutions after this day now.would like to see 3 way SLI titan performance over RRX.

Ergin Ozturk
11-21-2013, 05:14 AM
Hi Rob,
do you have Davinci Resolve?
Any change to test your configuration for R3D's? I am really wondering if you can playback any R3D realtime with Redrocket X + Titan cards in resolve.

thanks

Brian Merlen
11-21-2013, 05:20 AM
With the GPU kicking so much tail without rocket x enabled, part of me wonders if jumping on an old form factor Mac Pro is the thing to do in the coming months or year. Say an 8 or 12 core used, plus a decent but still cheap GPU, and boom look at these numbers! seems like it'll be wayyyy cheaper then kitting everything for TB2 and then struggling to make it run. Has OSX ever figured out a way to run GPUs externally yet last time I was looking into a chassis GPU wasn't an option in the previous OSX or so. Seems like if I don't want to go Wintel there wasn't a workflow in place at that time, is there one now for OSX to run GPUs over TB(1 or 2)?

Justin Kirchhoff
11-21-2013, 06:07 AM
Thanks for your input and impressions, Rob. Very informative.

Will Keir
11-21-2013, 06:21 AM
What about putting two Titans in a Mac Pro? Is that possible with power and pin availability concerns?


With the GPU kicking so much tail without rocket x enabled, part of me wonders if jumping on an old form factor Mac Pro is the thing to do in the coming months or year. Say an 8 or 12 core used, plus a decent but still cheap GPU, and boom look at these numbers! seems like it'll be wayyyy cheaper then kitting everything for TB2 and then struggling to make it run. Has OSX ever figured out a way to run GPUs externally yet last time I was looking into a chassis GPU wasn't an option in the previous OSX or so. Seems like if I don't want to go Wintel there wasn't a workflow in place at that time, is there one now for OSX to run GPUs over TB(1 or 2)?

Rob Anderson
11-21-2013, 12:47 PM
What about putting two Titans in a Mac Pro? Is that possible with power and pin availability concerns?
I would not recommend two TITANS inside of a Mac Pro. As-is, with the RR-X and TITAN we're pushing things (although still in safe limits). Also there is only one double-width 16x PCIe slot. Wouldn't fit.

David from RED helpfully pointed out in another thread, SLI offers no performance benefit for CUDA or OpenCL and at the moment REDCINE-X will only use one GPU.

Rob Anderson
11-21-2013, 01:08 PM
With the GPU kicking so much tail without rocket x enabled, part of me wonders if jumping on an old form factor Mac Pro is the thing to do in the coming months or year. Say an 8 or 12 core used, plus a decent but still cheap GPU, and boom look at these numbers! seems like it'll be wayyyy cheaper then kitting everything for TB2 and then struggling to make it run. Has OSX ever figured out a way to run GPUs externally yet last time I was looking into a chassis GPU wasn't an option in the previous OSX or so. Seems like if I don't want to go Wintel there wasn't a workflow in place at that time, is there one now for OSX to run GPUs over TB(1 or 2)?
Still a lot of questions about TB2 and quite frankly, what the hell Apple is doing. Without a doubt, a smart buy would be a 12-core Mac Pro (current tower). Even looking at the benchmarks for the new Mac Pro that have already been posted, the 2012 12-core is faster than the 4 and 6 core models. It looks like the 'new' Mac Pro will be a tick faster than the current Mac Pro but with plenty of limitations. It's a pretty damn frustrating situation with Apple all around.

The even smarter buy is a PC tower. If you can transition your workflow to be all Adobe/Resolve/REDCINE-X.

We're looking at buying a rack mount unit that will transcode to ProRes while allowing us to use a PC. ProRes has thus far been a project requirement for every single project we've ever been hired to do. Which makes the entire situation with Apple all the more frustrating.

Michael Jarvis
11-21-2013, 01:14 PM
3 titans SLIed?!


Hey Will...this totally does not have to do with this thread...but every time I see your profile pic out of my peripheral I always think its a picture of you holding a large mouth bass. Its a total illusion but it makes me laugh every time. Guess I need to go fishing or something. Just had to mention that. Ok...back to the thread....Dragon rocks. Cant wait to get mine and shred some 6K goodness.

Rock on. :emote_popcorn:

Will Keir
11-21-2013, 04:36 PM
Your not totally crazy. The hat is a bass pro fishing hat.


Hey Will...this totally does not have to do with this thread...but every time I see your profile pic out of my peripheral I always think its a picture of you holding a large mouth bass. Its a total illusion but it makes me laugh every time. Guess I need to go fishing or something. Just had to mention that. Ok...back to the thread....Dragon rocks. Cant wait to get mine and shred some 6K goodness.

Rock on. :emote_popcorn:

Rick Augustus
11-21-2013, 04:58 PM
Hey Will...this totally does not have to do with this thread...but every time I see your profile pic out of my peripheral I always think its a picture of you holding a large mouth bass. Its a total illusion but it makes me laugh every time. Guess I need to go fishing or something. Just had to mention that. Ok...back to the thread....Dragon rocks. Cant wait to get mine and shred some 6K goodness.

Rock on. :emote_popcorn:

THANKS Michael, NOW I'm totally going to be seeing a large mouth bass every time I see Will's profile. LOL.

Rob Anderson
11-23-2013, 12:36 AM
Just wrapped up hours of processing footage from recent shoots on both the Dragon and the Epic. The RED ROCKET-X is so unbelievably wicked fast... It caches 6K footage at full resolution faster than real-time playback. Stunning to see and wicked fun to use.

Craig Lees
11-23-2013, 06:05 AM
Hi Rob,

Great posts & a great way to fuel Dragon excitement.

Any chance you could post what frame rates you're getting on your Dragon, ie 6K HD, 6Kws, 3KHD, 3Kws etc or are they exactly the same as Epic?

Thanks,

Craig Lees
UK
www.3dstories.co.uk

Tom Van
11-23-2013, 07:26 AM
Hey Rob, thanks for the write-up. Lots of great information picked up here. Just as interesting as your Dragon impressions, and I'm sure a lot will agree, is your Mac Pro setup. To be honest, this thread has sparked a heavy interest for me to go Mac Pro Tower mirroring your configuration. Perhaps a dedicated thread on your setup? Thanks!



Everything I've been posting in this thread has been specific to one of my 2012 Mac Pro towers. However... I am about to post something cool regarding the MacBook Pro 2012 Retinas in another thread...

Can't wait to hear more about this.

Will Keir
11-23-2013, 07:38 AM
Where's the head and where's the tail? Not seeing it yet.


THANKS Michael, NOW I'm totally going to be seeing a large mouth bass every time I see Will's profile. LOL.

Will Keir
11-23-2013, 07:40 AM
Nice.

Rob. Have you had a chance to test Epic & Dragon side by side? To my knowledge, your one of the only ones capable right now.

I'm wondering about simple gains in low light situations. How many stops is the Dragon more sensitivity to light then MX?


Just wrapped up hours of processing footage from recent shoots on both the Dragon and the Epic. The RED ROCKET-X is so unbelievably wicked fast... It caches 6K footage at full resolution faster than real-time playback. Stunning to see and wicked fun to use.

sergio arguello
11-23-2013, 07:50 AM
Sorry to piss on the thread, but isnt it about Dragon? Seems to have steered into computer rocket and gpu discussion. Footage? tests?. again i apologize, but this is LAB stuff i want to see the movie.

Stanley Carpenter
11-23-2013, 08:06 AM
+1. Footage? Test?

Wes Howell
11-23-2013, 12:02 PM
Nice.

Rob. Have you had a chance to test Epic & Dragon side by side? To my knowledge, your one of the only ones capable right now.

I'm wondering about simple gains in low light situations. How many stops is the Dragon more sensitivity to light then MX?

From what I've seen the biggest benefit to the Dragon when it comes to low light is going to be how much cleaner it is. Much less noise.
I've been amazed at how much more you can pump the ISO. A couple stops easy…


Rob, have you tried playback in Premiere (with Rocket X) on your Mac by chance? I am not getting full resolution, full frame rate playback at 6k but this is testing on an older 8 core Mac Pro. Haven't tested smaller frame sizes at full res either… I would imagine that there is still performance to be gained by continued work on the drivers.

Rob Anderson
11-23-2013, 12:05 PM
Sorry to piss on the thread, but isnt it about Dragon? Seems to have steered into computer rocket and gpu discussion. Footage? tests?. again i apologize, but this is LAB stuff i want to see the movie.
Like it or not, digital cinema is as much an IT business now as film was 'lab stuff' before it. It's all part of the ecosystem. Science and engineering created these tools. Piss all you want.

More footage is coming though. We've been shooting constantly.

Zeb B
11-23-2013, 12:37 PM
Remember when the guys that got their lucky hands on a high profile camera first . . . spent the next 72 hours shooting and posting career changing movies? Pepperidge Farms does . . .

http://vimeo.com/7151244

Not a fan of Vincent but he knew how to get it done beyond a long winded unboxing ceremony ;-)

Rob Anderson
11-23-2013, 01:14 PM
Remember when the guys that got their lucky hands on a high profile camera first . . . spent the next 72 hours shooting and posting career changing movies? Pepperidge Farms does . . .

http://vimeo.com/7151244

Not a fan of Vincent but he knew how to get it done beyond a long winded unboxing ceremony ;-)

You must be a fool to not realize those spots were pre-planned and coordinated with their camera delivery.

I've had Dragon in my hands for 9 days and it's been out to work every day since. Sometimes for my own projects more often for client's I can't share here. Mind showing us what brilliant visual opus you've created with your M in the last 72 hours?

Anyway, glad this thread is proving helpful to some people. I know a lot of this information is stuff I would appreciate and absolutely integrate into my own work. Take it or leave it.

Michael Tiemann
11-23-2013, 01:33 PM
Anyway, glad this thread is proving helpful to some people. I know a lot of this information is stuff I would appreciate and absolutely integrate into my own work. Take it or leave it.

Very, very helpful. Thanks!

Zeb B
11-23-2013, 07:08 PM
You must be a fool to not realize those spots were pre-planned and coordinated with their camera delivery.

I've had Dragon in my hands for 9 days and it's been out to work every day since. Sometimes for my own projects more often for client's I can't share here. Mind showing us what brilliant visual opus you've created with your M in the last 72 hours?

Anyway, glad this thread is proving helpful to some people. I know a lot of this information is stuff I would appreciate and absolutely integrate into my own work. Take it or leave it.

For argument sake I accept your premise but wonder why then such a huge missed PR opportunity for both RED and the Dragon owner. I mean if Vincent can do it in 72hrs (with stills photo background) can not a hand picked Dragon owner? Any owner?

In reality, Canon had no idea what the had in the 5DII and probably had very little to do with Vincent's film. He was observant, early adopting and very aggressive . . . as you would expect from an accomplished photo journalist working in NYC at the time.

Cheers Mate!

Rob Anderson
11-23-2013, 08:45 PM
For argument sake I accept your premise but wonder why then such a huge missed PR opportunity for both RED and the Dragon owner. I mean if Vincent can do it in 72hrs (with stills photo background) can not a hand picked Dragon owner? Any owner?

In reality, Canon had no idea what the had in the 5DII and probably had very little to do with Vincent's film. He was observant, early adopting and very aggressive . . . as you would expect from an accomplished photo journalist working in NYC at the time.

Cheers Mate!
Sorry I'm not shooting and posting fast enough for you, Mate. What are you contributing, exactly?

Björn Benckert
11-24-2013, 03:48 AM
Remember when the guys that got their lucky hands on a high profile camera first . . . spent the next 72 hours shooting and posting career changing movies? Pepperidge Farms does . . .

http://vimeo.com/7151244

Not a fan of Vincent but he knew how to get it done beyond a long winded unboxing ceremony ;-)

I think it takes a bit more to impress now a days. That old 5D film came when there where no option to film with a sensor even close to that size without spending a fortune. Today thats old news.
And to me that footage looks quite shitty, it's shaky, 30fps, over saturated with hard clipped highlights and blacks. Today it takes a bit more to make a notice, especially if the camera you are trying to promote is hard to get and price starts at 50k USD... The clickrate on Vincent film came from the fact that it was what everybody then could buy with as little money as was spent on camera rent fort a day. Dragon is still not so much money but then again the landscape has changed quite a bit since the 5D was launched.

I would not count on making my money back from buying one and then make a blog about it. I think then it's better to focus on some solid projects and then camera rent is the smallest part. All ready there is so many RED ONE MX cameras rentable for almost nothing, when the dragons roll out those will push the scarlet and epic down in the dirt swell as dragon will not rent for more than the current epic MX prices.

In stockholm now we got:
Scarlet with full magliner, filter, mattbox, monitors, 2 tripods, battteries etc for: 600 USD
For Alexa studio XT with everything needed: 1600US
And epic MX with everything is around 1100USD

So when the dragon comes I'm pretty sure it will fall in between the MX epic and Alexa XT or even push down the whole range just a bit as then there is also more cameras out. So i'm guessing 1k USD a day for a dragon setup minus lenses which is still money but far from holding back any kind of real production.

Michael Tiemann
11-24-2013, 04:11 AM
Sorry I'm not shooting and posting fast enough for you, Mate. What are you contributing, exactly?

Rob, keep up the great work. Posting a detailed recipe for how to make a smokin' Dragon workflow is worth 10 videos of soft-focus porn.

Will Keir
11-24-2013, 06:34 AM
So much to discuss. :)



Sorry to piss on the thread, but isnt it about Dragon? Seems to have steered into computer rocket and gpu discussion. Footage? tests?. again i apologize, but this is LAB stuff i want to see the movie.

Will Keir
11-24-2013, 06:36 AM
Wes,

You got a Rocket X card in your old metal sled?


From what I've seen the biggest benefit to the Dragon when it comes to low light is going to be how much cleaner it is. Much less noise.
I've been amazed at how much more you can pump the ISO. A couple stops easy…


Rob, have you tried playback in Premiere (with Rocket X) on your Mac by chance? I am not getting full resolution, full frame rate playback at 6k but this is testing on an older 8 core Mac Pro. Haven't tested smaller frame sizes at full res either… I would imagine that there is still performance to be gained by continued work on the drivers.

Will Keir
11-24-2013, 06:45 AM
Hey let's not let this AWESOME thread you so generously took your time to create and update for the community boil down to "tit for tat." Keep up the good work, we appreciated and an focus on the positive vibes I'm sending you through the internet. This is the thread I woke up for this morning! The setup is very similar to how I'm looking to upgrade my own.

I'm sure Josh appreciates it too, demanding because of excitement, always looking for a healthy debate and an opportunity to display his intellect and solid sense of core values, compassion and human decency.


Sorry I'm not shooting and posting fast enough for you, Mate. What are you contributing, exactly?

Zeb B
11-24-2013, 07:22 AM
Sorry I'm not shooting and posting fast enough for you, Mate. What are you contributing, exactly?

My comments are not directed at you personally or your company. Just wondering why no one that has a Dragon has posted a well produced capabilities reel. Seems odd since there is usually rush to have the social media benefit of posting first. No worries if that is not of interest and I understand the downside of publicly representing RED. Ryan Walters well intentioned Zacuto Shoot Out effort comes to mind. Everyone is a f*%king critic . . . right? ;-)

BTW: do you rent that Dragon and if so what's the day/week rate?

Zeb B
11-24-2013, 07:24 AM
I think it takes a bit more to impress now a days. That old 5D film came when there where no option to film with a sensor even close to that size without spending a fortune. Today thats old news.
And to me that footage looks quite shitty, it's shaky, 30fps, over saturated with hard clipped highlights and blacks. Today it takes a bit more to make a notice, especially if the camera you are trying to promote is hard to get and price starts at 50k USD... The clickrate on Vincent film came from the fact that it was what everybody then could buy with as little money as was spent on camera rent fort a day. Dragon is still not so much money but then again the landscape has changed quite a bit since the 5D was launched.


fair enough and . . . love your work!

Nils Ruinet
11-24-2013, 07:35 AM
Special notes:

RED ROCKET-X will not work outside of a 16x PCIe lane (as of current firmware and unlikely otherwise).
The original RED ROCKET will not work with Dragon R3Ds.
Thanks Rob for all this info !

Now, the original Red Rocket not being compatible with Dragon footage is news to me. Is this supposed to change in the future ? Is this true even with 4K or 5K footage ?

Also, if the Rocket-X requires 16x PCIe lane, does that mean it won't work in a thunderbolt enclosure ? I'm happily using my RR card in a sonnet chassis on my MBP and it's just perfect. But it's definitely not 16x. Are there TB enclosures already supporting this card ? I guess they will have to be TB2 anyway.

Wes Howell
11-24-2013, 07:40 AM
Wes,

You got a Rocket X card in your old metal sled?

Yes sir. Feels more responsive than the old Rocket. Still not getting full debater 6k playback though.

Frank Martin
11-24-2013, 08:27 AM
I'd also like to know about Original Red Rocket compatibility. Sounds like something that will be addressed but if not that changes things a little

Rob Anderson
11-24-2013, 08:47 AM
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 23rd
Sharing one of the many projects I've been working on lately.

Shot with friend and performer Dave Locke on a Cyr Wheel, with the Dragon. Used mixed lighting, mixed frames, mixed ISO, and more. Bought "DJ lights" for $100 and generally abused the Dragon sensor as much as I could. Overcranked, RC 18:1, kept ISO low, room dark, lots of atmospheric effects to screw with light and... You name it.

A majority of this footage was shot and transcoded to web at 250 ISO and 24-86 fps. Thanks to the workflow I outlined above (and the RED ROCKET-X in particular), I was able to shoot, offload, quick grade, edit, and transcode to web all on the same night.

Music by David Bowie. One man crew (Me). Performer Dave Locke. Equipment Blackwood Cinema.


https://vimeo.com/80197506


Thanks for watching.

Will Keir
11-24-2013, 08:57 AM
Yeah Rob. Are you interested in renting the Dragon for a day?



BTW: do you rent that Dragon and if so what's the day/week rate?

Bob Gundu
11-24-2013, 08:58 AM
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 23rd
Sharing one of the many projects I've been working on lately.

Shot with friend and performer Dave Locke on a Cyr Wheel, with the Dragon. Used mixed lighting, mixed frames, mixed ISO, and more. Bought "DJ lights" for $100 and generally abused the Dragon sensor as much as I could. Overcranked, RC 18:1, kept ISO low, room dark, lots of atmospheric effects to screw with light and... You name it.

A majority of this footage was shot and transcoded to web at 250 ISO and 24-86 fps. Thanks to the workflow I outlined above (and the RED ROCKET-X in particular), I was able to shoot, offload, quick grade, edit, and transcode to web all on the same night.

Music by David Bowie. One man crew (Me). Performer Dave Locke. Equipment Blackwood Cinema.


https://vimeo.com/80197506


Thanks for watching.

Thanks for the video Rob. You may want to encode a bigger file as the HD version is 21mb which doesn't give it justice!

Will Keir
11-24-2013, 08:59 AM
Damn! I'm envious. I also have a 2009 Mac Pro. Seeing that Rob is getting full rez and your not seems like only a 3 year difference in towers. 12 cores vs 8.

When did you get an early RR-X? Prototype because of Adobe or are they shipping?


Yes sir. Feels more responsive than the old Rocket. Still not getting full debater 6k playback though.

Will Keir
11-24-2013, 09:03 AM
Well if you were going to push the Dragon in low light, this is how you do it. Two DJ lights and a dark room. Was noise ever an issue?


SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 23rd
Sharing one of the many projects I've been working on lately.

Shot with friend and performer Dave Locke on a Cyr Wheel, with the Dragon. Used mixed lighting, mixed frames, mixed ISO, and more. Bought "DJ lights" for $100 and generally abused the Dragon sensor as much as I could. Overcranked, RC 18:1, kept ISO low, room dark, lots of atmospheric effects to screw with light and... You name it.

A majority of this footage was shot and transcoded to web at 250 ISO and 24-86 fps. Thanks to the workflow I outlined above (and the RED ROCKET-X in particular), I was able to shoot, offload, quick grade, edit, and transcode to web all on the same night.

Music by David Bowie. One man crew (Me). Performer Dave Locke. Equipment Blackwood Cinema.


https://vimeo.com/80197506


Thanks for watching.

Will Keir
11-24-2013, 09:05 AM
Very cool athlete, I've never seen that before.

Rob Anderson
11-24-2013, 09:05 AM
Thanks for the video Rob. You may want to encode a bigger file as the HD version is 21mb which doesn't give it justice!
Thanks Bob. I believe Vimeo is still processing the much larger 1080p file. I'll keep an eye on it. Check back in an hour or so.


Well if you were going to push the Dragon in low light, this is how you do it. Two DJ lights and a dark room. Was noise ever an issue?
No. Not until I really went stupid and did 86fps 6K FF 1/400 RC 18:1. But even then... Still recoverable. Not unworkable. And I'm really curious what the new Mini Mags will do to push that ceiling even higher.

Mark Pugh
11-24-2013, 09:19 AM
Rob what's the source of those vertical flares (look like gate flares) early in the film?

Rob Anderson
11-24-2013, 09:21 AM
Rob what's the source of those vertical flares (look like gate flares) early in the film?
Flares specific to those garbage DJ lights. Found an angle and plane that made those pop so went with it.

Rob Anderson
11-24-2013, 09:50 AM
Looks like the 1080p version is now available. Thanks for watching guys.
https://vimeo.com/80197506

Project page (includes download link for 6K FF R3D raw clip from the shoot):
http://blackwoodfx.com/shares/wheel/

Peter Strietmann
11-24-2013, 09:54 AM
The video you posted is excellent! Just goes to show what a little talent can do even with "shitty" lights. I'm curious why you used 250 iso?

Rob Anderson
11-24-2013, 10:04 AM
The video you posted is excellent! Just goes to show what a little talent can do even with "shitty" lights. I'm curious why you used 250 iso?

Yep, I went full 'shit' with this one. Dirt cheap DJ lights (multi-colored!) and Nikon mass-production still lenses. High RC compression. High frames/overcrank (usually). 128 GB REDMAGs. No crew. No follow-focus. No high-hat (balanced camera on the tip of my sneaker for low shots, used monopod for mid-level). No matte box or filtering. I set 250 ISO for my project and jogged things up and down from 120 to 3200. The Dragon is a very clean sensor.

Higher resolution version being uploaded to YouTube right now.

Zeb B
11-24-2013, 10:21 AM
Thanks for the efforts!

I love the performance art stuff folks come up with for Vegas. Cirque really changed the game. "Rat Pack" . . . pfffff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDwTX83Am4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIthWLdF3sE

Shadi Abu Sharar
11-24-2013, 02:09 PM
Hi Rob just a Q. is the titan installed on Mac or PC Windows

Rob Anderson
11-24-2013, 03:19 PM
Hi Rob just a Q. is the titan installed on Mac or PC Windows
2012 Mac Pro, OS X Mavericks.

Dan Kanes
11-24-2013, 08:16 PM
That was sick!

I want to see that guy hit a skatepark with that thing! WheelGrind!

where did you get such a good deal on DJ lights BTW?

Nice work.

Rob Anderson
11-24-2013, 08:50 PM
That was sick!

I want to see that guy hit a skatepark with that thing! WheelGrind!

where did you get such a good deal on DJ lights BTW?

Nice work.
Guitar Center in Las Vegas (Town Square).

Thank you for the comments, Dan. Glad you enjoyed it.

Sanjin Jukic
11-27-2013, 12:58 PM
Amazing!!!!

Thanks Rob for R3D file!!!

Dragon R3D file is excellent, no noise, great latitude, no clipping, RGB beam balanced, great skin tones...etc...!!!

Everything exactly right what Kaminski showed us in his NYTimes shots recently!!!!

2014 year of RED DRAGON!!!!!

Detlev Eller
11-27-2013, 01:49 PM
:-)

Jon Carr
11-27-2013, 02:07 PM
I been messing around with that Dragon footage you posted, and WOW! I need DRAGON! Like NOW PLEASE!!!

Rob Anderson
11-27-2013, 02:30 PM
I been messing around with that Dragon footage you posted, and WOW! I need DRAGON! Like NOW PLEASE!!!
Really glad you guys are having fun with it. Much more to come!

Jon Carr
11-27-2013, 02:51 PM
Really glad you guys are having fun with it. Much more to come!
Yes please, keep it coming.

Will Keir
11-28-2013, 12:30 PM
Rob,

If you get a chance, would you mind doing a AJA System test on your internal RAID 0 SSD setup and post the configuration for us please?
Trying to see if your limited to 600MB/s or so. I believe you have 4x 1TB SSDs in a RAID 0 configuration?

Trying to finish up the knowledge from another discussion.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?105831-SSD-RAIDS&p=1288284#post1288284

Thanks in advance for answering all our questions and taking the time to share with us.

Robert Ruffo New
11-28-2013, 04:34 PM
Yes, the TITAN card is a double-width GPU. In the Mac Pro I've been posting specifically about, this is the config (from top to bottom of Mac Pro in vertical orientation):
4x PCIe 2-port eSATA and 2-port USB 3.0 hub
4x SAS ATTO card (connected to a JMR PCI expansion and an 18-drive RAID)
16x PCIe RED ROCKET-X (6-pin power shared with TITAN)
16x PCIe TITAN GPU (6-pin power shared with RR-X + 6-pin to 8-pin adapted power)

1x SuperDrive
2x SSD (individual drives) in empty SuperDrive port
4x SSD (RAID 0) in HDD slots 1-4

problem is: Now you can't grade in DaVinci….

Tom Gleeson
11-28-2013, 05:41 PM
Are Dragon R3D files not supported by Resolve yet?

Gunleik Groven
11-28-2013, 05:45 PM
problem is: Now you can't grade in DaVinci….


Why?

Neil W. Smith
11-28-2013, 09:17 PM
Are Dragon R3D files not supported by Resolve yet?

Resolve 10 totally handles grading 6K DRAGON .r3ds no problem ... I think Robert's observation is more to do with the fact that there is no BMD DeckLink card in Rob's set up ... and at the moment HD SDI is not enabled on Red Rocket-X card (unless latest firmware upgrade takes care of that).

In our Mac Pro DRAGON grading systems, we utilize a PCIe expansion box with this configuration:

MaPro:
K50000 GPU
PCIe expansion card
4K Extreme Decklink Card
SAS HBA

In the expansion box we have:
2 x TITANs
RR-X
Kona 3 (optional but useful for 4K out of FCP X)
10GbE Ethernet

System totally handles DRAGON footage grading in realtime to HD SDI monitor.

Neil

Rob Anderson
11-28-2013, 10:27 PM
Resolve 10 totally handles grading 6K DRAGON .r3ds no problem ... I think Robert's observation is more to do with the fact that there is no BMD DeckLink card in Rob's set up ... and at the moment HD SDI is not enabled on Red Rocket-X card (unless latest firmware upgrade takes care of that).

In our Mac Pro DRAGON grading systems, we utilize a PCIe expansion box with this configuration:

MaPro:
K50000 GPU
PCIe expansion card
4K Extreme Decklink Card
SAS HBA

In the expansion box we have:
2 x TITANs
RR-X
Kona 3 (optional but useful for 4K out of FCP X)
10GbE Ethernet

System totally handles DRAGON footage grading in realtime to HD SDI monitor.

Neil

RR-X shared with two Titans via a single 16x PCIe expansion card. That's a hefty bottleneck. We yanked our JMR PCIe expander from the MP configuration I shared here because it's a big restrictor on 3x full 16x lane cards.

Neil W. Smith
11-29-2013, 04:55 AM
RR-X shared with two Titans via a single 16x PCIe expansion card. That's a hefty bottleneck. We yanked our JMR PCIe expander from the MP configuration I shared here because it's a big restrictor on 3x full 16x lane cards.

Interesting ... so how do you do your color correction?

Neil

Rob Anderson
11-29-2013, 07:34 AM
Interesting ... so how do you do your color correction?

Neil
In this configuration, we use the Titan and the RR-X inside of the MP tower (dedicated 16x PCIe each).

Neil W. Smith
11-29-2013, 12:13 PM
In this configuration, we use the Titan and the RR-X inside of the PC tower (dedicated 16x PCIe each).

And what calibrated monitor are you using? ... and how are you going out to it?

Also, what grading software?

Rob Anderson
11-29-2013, 03:18 PM
And what calibrated monitor are you using? ... and how are you going out to it?

Also, what grading software?
DreamColor with Resolve and RC-X.

Neil W. Smith
11-29-2013, 03:23 PM
DreamColor with Resolve and RC-X.

Very cool, Rob .... and presumably you're going out Display Port to the DreamColor? ... 10 bit pipeline all the way?

Did you look at any of the EIZO monitors at all?

Thanks,
Neil

Jeff Brown
11-29-2013, 04:25 PM
Not sure it's an option for you but I've put a couple of Blustor expanders on the two different ports of the bridge card- GPUs in one and rocket (normal one)and raid in the other. Worked fine that way when I'd had trouble running it all from one box. Realtime 4K out from 5K R3Ds on a BM 4k extreme card in slot 3 of the tower as well as 4K Tiff/DPX of other formats.

But I can get away with one expander using Scratch with an AJA 3G in 4k mode....

Charles Bergquist
11-29-2013, 05:12 PM
How are you powering the Titan inside the tower with the Red Rocket card? I'm looking to do the same but running out of power.

Thanks!

EDIT : Retracted, I see it's a PC tower, not a Mac Pro.

Bob Gilles
11-29-2013, 09:54 PM
Do I need to buy the motion mount to get global shutter on the Dragon, or is it already baked in to this new sensor?

Bob Gundu
11-29-2013, 10:11 PM
Need the mount.


Do I need to buy the motion mount to get global shutter on the Dragon, or is it already baked in to this new sensor?

AndreasOberg
11-30-2013, 03:57 AM
Resolve 10 totally handles grading 6K DRAGON .r3ds no problem ... I think Robert's observation is more to do with the fact that there is no BMD DeckLink card in Rob's set up ... and at the moment HD SDI is not enabled on Red Rocket-X card (unless latest firmware upgrade takes care of that).

In the expansion box we have:
2 x TITANs
RR-X
Kona 3 (optional but useful for 4K out of FCP X)
10GbE Ethernet

System totally handles DRAGON footage grading in realtime to HD SDI monitor.

Neil

I'm a bit surprised that the 2 titans and RRX can live int he same expansion box. I would not have thought that the bandwidth would be enough for these 3 cards.
HOWEVER I'm not sure you need THAT much bandwidth when it comes to cuda calculations. Normally graphics cards use an enormouth bandwith because they are moving 3D textures and the full display image back and forward between the cpu and the graphic card. However this should not be the case with mathematical calculations as much. The calculations can be heavy even though there is not so much transfer of data between the card and the computer. If you have the time it would be very enlightening to see some benchmarks in Resolve.
One possible test would be to to a heavy test with maybe 20 nodes so that you are getting10fps with all 3 cards, then you take out one card at a time and see how this changes the performance.

I would do it myself if I had my hands on the hardware, but its out of my reach for the moment :)
/Andreas

Rob Anderson
11-30-2013, 05:10 AM
How are you powering the Titan inside the tower with the Red Rocket card? I'm looking to do the same but running out of power.

Thanks! EDIT : Retracted, I see it's a PC tower, not a Mac Pro.

No, it's not a PC tower. This is the exact configuration and the only computer I have been referencing here:

Mac Pro 2012 with 12-cores (2x 3.06 6-Core Intel Xeon), 128 GB RAM
RED Rocket-X
Nvidia Titan

I detailed the power setup earlier. mini-6 to 6-pin splitter (provided by RED within the RR-X package) plus mini-6 to 6-pin to 8-pin adapter. That combination powers both the Nvidia Titan and the RR-X within a Mac Pro chassis. We've been running this configuration for more than 215 consecutive hours with lots of burn-in and rendering. Works wonderfully.


Not sure it's an option for you but I've put a couple of Blustor expanders on the two different ports of the bridge card- GPUs in one and rocket (normal one)and raid in the other. Worked fine that way when I'd had trouble running it all from one box. Realtime 4K out from 5K R3Ds on a BM 4k extreme card in slot 3 of the tower as well as 4K Tiff/DPX of other formats.

We have Silverstor and Bluestor expanders from JMR. We do not use them with the RR-X cards because they will not work correctly and will not provide the bandwidth required. RR-X should live in a true, single 16x PCIe slot. Previously, we ran multiple RR's out of the Bluestor. Great configuration. But as the RR-X is 5x the power of a single RR... No point in swallowing a 16x lane with a 16x expander card.

And if someone else is combining multiple GPU's AND an RR-X in an expander, you'd be choking that single 16x lane. Expanders are better served with PCIe RAIDs, I/O cards, original RR's, etc.

AndreasOberg
12-01-2013, 11:33 AM
I'm also a big fan of the Pro I/O. Thanks to the module system, you can easily toss the Pro I/O to save weight with just two quarter twists of a torx screw. Amazing.

Fantastic thread. I really like seeing how you are setting every new thing up. I'm wondering how you are using the Pro I/O. In my setup audio is one of my biggest challenges. Caused me plenty of pain in our current movie.

The key things I would like to achieve are:
1) Having a dependable scratch track. Using the front ports are ok-ish, but had problems with connectors. So its working pretty ok.
2) Having production quality audio in the Epic. Yes for serious stuff we would use 8 channel pro recorders etc but for documentaries with only 2 people I think it would be nice to get the sound into the camera
3) Making syncing easier. I had SO much pain with syncing, dailies etc. I could imagine having another external recorder as well, as long as the syncing is easy but I'm using FCPX and syncing has not been easy here.

How is the timecode btw? Is it stable, I know Epic timecode is not stable, but would be great to not have to use a Lockit box.

Downsides with PRO I/O is that:
- its not exactly cheap at $3700
- Makes the camera more heavy. I often use the camera hand held, but maybe it will make it more balanced on the shoulder. How do you feel about handheld?
- only 2 channels right? Maybe you can get 4 with the front of the epic but they are not very good
- is the quality good enough compared to Sound Devices etc?

Once again. Please keep posting!
/Andreas

Robert Ruffo New
12-01-2013, 01:49 PM
Need the mount.

For 100% global you need the mount, but read-out is vastly accelerated to the point where most shutter issues other than flashes/strobes are gone.

Tried Mount and it seems to have a variety of disturbing artifacts. I for one would rent it only when planning on shooting strobes.

Jon Carr
12-01-2013, 01:55 PM
For 100% global you need the mount, but read-out is vastly accelerated to the point where most shutter issues other than flashes/strobes are gone.

Tried Mount and it seems to have a variety of disturbing artifacts. I for one would rent it only when planning on shooting strobes.
Can you post a still or video of the artifacts? I'm planning on pulling the trigger on a motion mount.

Robert Ruffo New
12-01-2013, 06:12 PM
Resolve 10 totally handles grading 6K DRAGON .r3ds no problem ... I think Robert's observation is more to do with the fact that there is no BMD DeckLink card in Rob's set up ... and at the moment HD SDI is not enabled on Red Rocket-X card (unless latest firmware upgrade takes care of that).

In our Mac Pro DRAGON grading systems, we utilize a PCIe expansion box with this configuration:

MaPro:
K50000 GPU
PCIe expansion card
4K Extreme Decklink Card
SAS HBA

In the expansion box we have:
2 x TITANs
RR-X
Kona 3 (optional but useful for 4K out of FCP X)
10GbE Ethernet

System totally handles DRAGON footage grading in realtime to HD SDI monitor.

Neil

yes and No. The BM cards are sort of like dongles that you must buy in order to get a proper full screen output from Resolve. No other cards can be used for 2nd monitor output in Resolve

Rob Anderson
12-02-2013, 06:24 PM
Screen grabs from another personal project I shot the other night. Dragon 6K FF. 3 light cans. 58mm and 85mm. Adjusted curves, otherwise ungraded.

Edit coming soon.

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rope_blackwoodcinema01_sml.jpg

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rope_blackwoodcinema02_sml.jpg

Rob Anderson
12-02-2013, 06:31 PM
Fantastic thread. I really like seeing how you are setting every new thing up. I'm wondering how you are using the Pro I/O. In my setup audio is one of my biggest challenges. Caused me plenty of pain in our current movie.

(SNIP!) Pro I/O questions and thoughts.

Once again. Please keep posting!
/Andreas

Thank you Andreas. Sound quality with the Pro I/O is top-notch. Outstanding. Wouldn't use the front inputs because of flaky connector options. Prefer a locking XLR any day. Plus there's AES. I consider the Pro I/O vital and we bought one for every DSMC Epic/Dragon body we have because of that. While it may be heavy, it's just two quarter twists with a torx you're back to run and gun mode. Can't beat it. RED just doesn't get enough credit for the design of their modules.

We've run wireless lav receivers directly into the Pro I/O and it worked wonderfully. More typical however is to run sound to a digital recorder then output back to the Pro I/O for synchronization and a pristine scratch track.

I also use Rode microphones on shoe mounts for on camera (rare) and little sony snap-ins for the front inputs if I'm really desperate (or forgot the Rode and there's no loopback available for getting audio into the DSMC).

I have not worked with jamming timecode on the Dragon yet. I'll update when that happens.

Robert Ruffo New
12-02-2013, 10:54 PM
Can you post a still or video of the artifacts? I'm planning on pulling the trigger on a motion mount.

I can't post anything from the shoot, least of all camera errors, but there were strange effects in the bokeh, which appeared during racks close to the near end of the lens. FXPHD noticed the same issues. You can Google the problem with those key words. Interaction with polarization filters also yielded some funky effects. I must say I am not a fan. I wish the thing existed in a filter version.

Robert Ruffo New
12-02-2013, 10:56 PM
Screen grabs from another personal project I shot the other night. Dragon 6K FF. 3 light cans. 58mm and 85mm. Adjusted curves, otherwise ungraded.

Edit coming soon.

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rope_blackwoodcinema01_sml.jpg

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/rope_blackwoodcinema02_sml.jpg

These are beautiful pictures, but could you have gotten extremely similar images maybe identical ones with an Epic MX? Me thinks very likely yes, but I suppose it all depends on the lighting conditions and limitations and I was not there.

Rob Anderson
12-02-2013, 11:46 PM
These are beautiful pictures, but could you have gotten extremely similar images maybe identical ones with an Epic MX? Me thinks very likely yes, but I suppose it all depends on the lighting conditions and limitations and I was not there.
Not with the same lighting and set up, no. 1280 ISO at 2 stop would be a different peel coming off of the MX. Also, 6K FF. You'd see a different crop.

Rob Anderson
12-04-2013, 01:15 AM
Thread updated. I've shared another R3D trim you guys can look at. 6K FF

Sanjin Jukic
12-04-2013, 02:58 AM
Thanks Rob!!!

Will Keir
12-04-2013, 03:47 AM
wow Rob, sharing a lot of stuff. Much appreciated my man!

Rob Anderson
12-04-2013, 07:18 AM
Just finished final grade for this piece. Dragon has incredible latitude.

http://www.blackwoodfx.com/shares/dragon/blackwoodcinema_joshfried_rope_sml.jpg

Jogg Cranston
12-04-2013, 07:28 AM
I like the imagery and cool subject! But from a tech. standpoint they have weird disappointing noise patterns going on, it could be the scaling you are using to post on the web though I suppose.

Justin O'Neill
12-04-2013, 07:29 AM
There were strange effects in the bokeh.

RED has been very clear that if you go above 4 stops of ND (ND 1.2) you should not open up wider than t4.0. If you stay under ND 1.2 you can open up as much as you'd like.

I have been testing the motion mount for over a month and haven't seen any weirdness in the bokeh when staying within those limitations. I know quite a few people who own it can't shoot without it now.

Rob Anderson
12-04-2013, 07:32 AM
I like the imagery and cool subject! But from a tech. standpoint they have weird disappointing noise patterns going on, it could be the scaling you are using to post on the web though I suppose.
I noticed that too. It's not noise and not present in the original footage. (See R3D in my main post.) Artifacts are from JPEG compression to web. Looking forward to the day when we can stop compromising by sharing our 4K+ films at 1080 all of the other lossy formats. REDRAY... You're up. Glad you liked the imagery. Thank you.

Justin O'Neill
12-04-2013, 07:37 AM
Thanks for posting these Rob, really beautiful stills.

Peter Strietmann
12-04-2013, 08:43 AM
These are some really beautiful images. What ISO are you using? And, still using the DJ lights? If you are I'm going to have to go buy some!

David Battistella
12-04-2013, 09:09 AM
Rob,

Thanks for posting.

Looking at the clip you provided, seeing it was shot at 9:1 compression and watching it at 1/8 resolution on my screen (because my rocket setup is out) I have to say that my jaw dropped.

I had a RED MOMENT. Those of you who have been around since the start might be able to relate.

1. This dragon footage is nice.
wait
2. It's playing back full screen at 1/8th resolution on my mac
wait.
3. Am I sure those are the settings, this looks way to good!
wait.
4. Check metadata. That is 9:1 compression
wait.
5. Let me double check that.
wait.
6.Shit, I want this thing bad now, more than I did last week!
Wait.
7. When is someone, anyone at RED going to send me that e-mail?

LOL :)

Awe dang! Red has delivered these moments since the beginning. So nice to see they just keep hitting it out of the park.

David

Elsie N
12-04-2013, 09:24 AM
Rob,

Thanks for posting.

Looking at the clip you provided, seeing it was shot at 9:1 compression and watching it at 1/8 resolution on my screen (because my rocket setup is out) I have to say that my jaw dropped.

I had a RED MOMENT. Those of you who have been around since the start might be able to relate.

1. This dragon footage is nice.
wait
2. It's playing back full screen at 1/8th resolution on my mac
wait.
3. Am I sure those are the settings, this looks way to good!
wait.
4. Check metadata. That is 9:1 compression
wait.
5. Let me double check that.
wait.
6.Shit, I want this thing bad now, more than I did last week!
Wait.
7. When is someone, anyone at RED going to send me that e-mail?

LOL :)

Awe dang! Red has delivered these moments since the beginning. So nice to see they just keep hitting it out of the park.

David

David, what you have described is what has me convinced Dragon is the way to go. For one, it allows me to exceed the quality of the Epic X without increasing data rate too much (I think someone said 17:1 Redcode is similar to Epic X 6:1 or maybe 8:1? in quality).

But then, if I want to capture a scene that I know I am going to crop, I can set a low setting and capture that and pay the data rate penalty.

Not only is there more latitude in the DR, but more latitude in the way we shoot.

David Battistella
12-04-2013, 09:32 AM
Looks to me like the "no ISO penalty" is in full play. I can move this clip from 200iso to 2000 ISO with no discernible difference in noise.

This shit is real. Huge for me in my work.

David

Matt Ryan
12-04-2013, 11:39 AM
My RedcineX Grade: (ISO 2000 with curves applied and as for the noise, keep in mind this shot is underexposed at 800ISO. Pushing it this far you'd think there would be a ton more noise!)
http://matthayslett.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/A002_C012_1129ID_S000.00000111.jpg

Thanks Rob for the sample!

Nick Morrison
12-04-2013, 01:32 PM
Matt that grade looks sick. I'm getting excited...even more than usual...for Dragon...

Phil Holland
12-04-2013, 01:49 PM
David, what you have described is what has me convinced Dragon is the way to go. For one, it allows me to exceed the quality of the Epic X without increasing data rate too much (I think someone said 17:1 Redcode is similar to Epic X 6:1 or maybe 8:1? in quality).

But then, if I want to capture a scene that I know I am going to crop, I can set a low setting and capture that and pay the data rate penalty.

Not only is there more latitude in the DR, but more latitude in the way we shoot.

It's unclear on a 1:1 comparison between REDCODEs just yet, but John Marchant posted an interesting sample some time ago. We do need to test different subject matter with various levels of detail. What is clear is that the REDCODE compression schemes with Dragon are greatly improved due to the lower noise floor. Much more flexibility. I see most shooting at 5:1 for standard cinema applications with the Dragons that are out there now, but the higher compression schemes look pretty damn good as well. I think we'll see more people going towards things like 6:1 through 10:1 for a lot of applications. The older 17:1 and 15:1 material I shot looked damn good and that wasn't the latest calibration. Things are nicer on the Dragons that people have in their hands right now.

One note on the DR. That massive dynamic range really effects the amount of clean workable latitude within the REDCODE itself. You can push and pull material around a lot more these days without breaking it and that's really exciting.

Elsie N
12-04-2013, 02:43 PM
It's unclear on a 1:1 comparison between REDCODEs just yet, but John Marchant posted an interesting sample some time ago. We do need to test different subject matter with various levels of detail. What is clear is that the REDCODE compression schemes with Dragon are greatly improved due to the lower noise floor. Much more flexibility. I see most shooting at 5:1 for standard cinema applications with the Dragons that are out there now, but the higher compression schemes look pretty damn good as well. I think we'll see more people going towards things like 6:1 through 10:1 for a lot of applications. The older 17:1 and 15:1 material I shot looked damn good and that wasn't the latest calibration. Things are nicer on the Dragons that people have in their hands right now.

One note on the DR. That massive dynamic range really effects the amount of clean workable latitude within the REDCODE itself. You can push and pull material around a lot more these days without breaking it and that's really exciting.

Thanks for clarifying my suppositions Phil.

I look forward to having those rates tested and published so we can get a better handle on where the various sweet spots are (for different situations) and perhaps what settings to use to keep Dragon and Epic X on an equal footing when shooting with both cameras.

PatrickFaith
12-04-2013, 08:16 PM
I am really enjoying this thread. I also shoot with the new nikon lenses (25,35,58,85) but with a monochrome epic, it seems to have a similar feel to your shots. I find shooting with this new nikon glass with the monochrome sensor just free's me from dealing with my 3 other lens mounts and "tons" of cinema glass. Please keep the updates coming as you have the time, much appreciated.

Will Keir
12-04-2013, 10:50 PM
Nice grade. The original has some background noise matter than you seemed to tone down. This might be worth a download, thanks for making the R3D available Rob.


My RedcineX Grade: (ISO 2000 with curves applied and as for the noise, keep in mind this shot is underexposed at 800ISO. Pushing it this far you'd think there would be a ton more noise!)
http://matthayslett.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/A002_C012_1129ID_S000.00000111.jpg

Thanks Rob for the sample!

Gunleik Groven
12-04-2013, 11:12 PM
My guess is that Phils assumption that the compression will handle different scenarios differently, is a good one...

But to me, it looks like we should not base our compression-handling too much on the knowledge and patterns we have seen on the R1 M/MX and Epic.
Noise floor is probably part of it, but better algorithms, more powerful hardware looks to me to be part of the answer, too.
The new redcode seems to handle sustained complexity and nuances a lot better.

It is time to throw out old knowledge and do new tests to find the limits of the new camera.

Rob Anderson
12-05-2013, 12:31 AM
My guess is that Phils assumption that the compression will handle different scenarios differently, is a good one...

But to me, it looks like we should not base our compression-handling too much on the knowledge and patterns we have seen on the R1 M/MX and Epic.
Noise floor is probably part of it, but better algorithms, more powerful hardware looks to me to be part of the answer, too.
The new redcode seems to handle sustained complexity and nuances a lot better.

It is time to throw out old knowledge and do new tests to find the limits of the new camera.

Absolutely right. Treat this as a whole new camera because it really is. The form factor, UIX, and all of the core knowledge remains the same (huge savings and investment right there), but how you approach this sensor needs to be updated.

ericyoung
12-05-2013, 07:09 AM
I can't post anything from the shoot, least of all camera errors, but there were strange effects in the bokeh, which appeared during racks close to the near end of the lens. FXPHD noticed the same issues. You can Google the problem with those key words. Interaction with polarization filters also yielded some funky effects. I must say I am not a fan. I wish the thing existed in a filter version.

Since the motion mount is also a polariser, it will interact with pola filters. Phil Holland has written about using 1/4 wave retarders for use in front of the motion mount.

Brandon J.F.
12-05-2013, 05:02 PM
Here's a quick grade I did. ISO 5000.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2weyywi.jpg

After playing around with this clip there's no question in my mind that Dragon lives up to the hype.

Matt Ryan
12-05-2013, 11:46 PM
https://vimeo.com/81169385

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJiYERMJ2wo
https://vimeo.com/81169385

Played around with a couple looks.

"Please excuse the H264 banding, it is not an issue in the Prores version.
No noise reduction was used in the examples. First two clips processed at 320ISO and the last two at 800ISO. The RAW file has no clipping on the skin of the twirler, any clipping is caused by the color or compression."

Rob Anderson
12-06-2013, 06:04 AM
https://vimeo.com/81169385

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJiYERMJ2wo
https://vimeo.com/81169385

Played around with a couple looks.

Matt, awesome share. Well done.

Jeremy Torrie
12-06-2013, 08:34 AM
I have Motion Mounts for each of my Epics...but with the bigger sensor area are people still using 4x5.6 matte boxes or moving up to 6x6 when additional filtration is required? My big concern is more about the wide end of the lens.

Phil Holland
12-06-2013, 09:10 AM
I have Motion Mounts for each of my Epics...but with the bigger sensor area are people still using 4x5.6 matte boxes or moving up to 6x6 when additional filtration is required? My big concern is more about the wide end of the lens.

It will literally depend on what lenses you use as the design comes into play a bit, but for instance my Schneider Cine-Xenar III just cover 6K WS with an OConnor O-Box WM with filters in the trays. You'll have to pay close attention on the wide end of most 4x5.65 matte boxes for sure. 25mm and up on several prime sets seemed pretty happy.

Remember though, most peoples shooting logic at 6K is going to slightly change due to the increased FOV due to the larger 6K sensor size. For example, if you use an 18mm on S35 for a certain look you may find that you may want to shoot a 25mm at 6K for a similar-ish look. Just depends on what you're after. 14/15mm is extremely wide on Dragon 6K and people who like shooting with Ultra-Wides are going to love that.

The biggest thing to me is if you're one of the guys who feels a standard focal length range for narrative and general shooting is 18-100mm you may find on Dragon that 25-135mm is going to play more into the standard shooting logic used somewhat industry-wide. That's not to say 18mm or wider is a bunk length or anything, it's just wide and I like it :) You just likely won't be shooting your beauty close ups with one.

Some people shoot longer, some wider. There's no real right answer when it comes to lenses.

One thing I do think will happen, is you'll see people attracted to the 40mm focal length on Dragon if you are shooting 6K FF.

Jeremy Torrie
12-06-2013, 10:34 AM
Thanks Phil. As more Dragons get out in the wild we will really begin to answer a lot of these questions better as people begin to frame in the various 6K flavors and let us know lenses they're using.

The evolution of Red keeps getting better and better. Dragon combined with Mini Mags with lower compression ratios, Motion Mounts now in circulation (i have two), and hopefully a redesigned Meizler would be the most complete camera system out there. Not for the faint of heart when you add up all the costs but if filmmaking is your business (as it is mine) good times are expected for 2014.

Nicolas Guillou
12-06-2013, 02:46 PM
Hello Rob,
Your work is very nice. I love it.
Is it possible to know how you connect your 4K Extreme Decklink Card to Dreamcolor for to have the 10bit color in 4:4:4 ?
And how you calibrate your screen ?
Thank you.
Nicolas

Rob Anderson
12-06-2013, 03:29 PM
Hello Rob,
Your work is very nice. I love it.
Is it possible to know how you connect your 4K Extreme Decklink Card to Dreamcolor for to have the 10bit color in 4:4:4 ?
And how you calibrate your screen ?
Thank you.
Nicolas
Thank you Nicolas.

AJA T-TAP. Calibrating with DC tools.

Peter Lyons Collister, ASC
12-06-2013, 10:32 PM
Really great images... As far as 6K and lens coverage goes I am shooting this feature here in Atlanta at 5.5K with cooke S4's. No vignetting. I did do one Dolly/Zoom shot and rented an old Cooke 20-100 and shot at 5K because of the image circle .....

It's all good...

Nicolas Guillou
12-07-2013, 07:49 AM
thank you Rob,
YOu have no problem with AJA T-TAP for hdmi is in 4:2:2 and not 4:4:4 ?

Rob Anderson
12-08-2013, 01:20 AM
thank you Rob,
YOu have no problem with AJA T-TAP for hdmi is in 4:2:2 and not 4:4:4 ?
Not at all. T-Tap is a great little device. When we need 444 we use its big brother (the ioxt) and switch on the MBP. More than anything, that stop has become a checksum. And when we're onset doing fast grades as part of our DIT package, we have the ioxt and a few other solutions with us.

Russ Fill
12-08-2013, 07:31 AM
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
Looks amazing, well done.
Just what I think we all have been waiting for to help with the transition.

Rob Anderson
12-17-2013, 05:02 AM
Short BTS-style vid shot using Google Glass. We were in Central Nevada filming for around 30 hrs.


https://vimeo.com/82091814

Will Keir
01-16-2014, 11:07 PM
Rob,

I was looking for what version of OS X you are running. Mavericks, or can you run earlier version with the RRX Card? Lion or Mountain Lion?

Rob Anderson
01-17-2014, 03:18 AM
Rob,

I was looking for what version of OS X you are running. Mavericks, or can you run earlier version with the RRX Card? Lion or Mountain Lion?
Good question but I do not know, sorry. I upgraded to Mavericks for Titan support and haven't looked back. RRX confirmed working across multiple (2011-2012) Mac Pro's as-well-as on our custom Maingear PC rigs.

RRX is a beautiful thing...

Robert Ruffo New
01-17-2014, 11:41 AM
Do I need to buy the motion mount to get global shutter on the Dragon, or is it already baked in to this new sensor?

You don't need the mount to see greatly accelerated readout, it's not 100% instant, but almost and far faster than MX

Craig Lees
01-18-2014, 05:31 AM
Hi Rob,

Can you tell us what grading system do you use with your mbp & ioxt setup?
sounds like a good mobile solution.

Thanks,
Craig Lees
SX UK
www.3dstories.co.uk
craig@3dstories.co.uk

Rob Anderson
01-18-2014, 11:46 PM
For grades, we use REDCINE-X, Adobe Speed Grade, and DaVinci Resolve 10. Sometimes just one over the others, other times we mix and match. Depends on the working environment, how the client wants their footage handled, and/or what's accessible (if we're not using our own gear).


Hi Rob,

Can you tell us what grading system do you use with your mbp & ioxt setup?
sounds like a good mobile solution.

Thanks,
Craig Lees
SX UK
www.3dstories.co.uk (http://www.3dstories.co.uk)
craig@3dstories.co.uk

Will Keir
01-19-2014, 01:17 AM
Rob,

I'm wondering how you setup and what options you used to create your quad SSD RAID 0? Software raid using Disk Utility, or another method? What drives did you use, what read and write speeds were you able to achieve?

Craig Lees
01-21-2014, 10:28 AM
Hi Rob,

Thanks for that info. I didn't make myself very clear. How are you running your IOXT for grading? I have a dual link hdsdi monitor but couldn't get a signal to it from my MacBook Pro using resolve ( which I imagine is a BM vs AJA thing). Is Speedgrade the answer?

Thanks and awesome reel btw! Those perfromance artist pieces are completely rad!

Cheers,

Craig Lees
SX UK
www.3dstories.co.uk