Is RED ready for Scarlet? Is RED going to upset RED ONE buyers? [Archive]

Peter Majtan

04-04-2008, 07:21 PM

I don't want to be the "devil's advocate" here, but is Jim and his team READY for Scarlet? If Scarlet will turned out to be anything like what we expect, i believe that RED will be unable to provide sufficient supplies for a very long time, if ever...

Kind of like what is happening now with iPhone - Apple admitted that they "have underestimated the demand" for the product. But we don't have to go to Cupertino for examples - look at what is happening to RED ONE. How many of You out there have ordered RED ONE and are still waiting in a line?

Better yet - How many of You out there have ordered RED ONE before knowing anything about Scarlet and now You wish You did not and rather would like to buy Scarlet?

Now that is a question...

More defined poll options :

1. Person who ordered RED ONE, does not have it yet and would not likely choose Scarlet over RED ONE if he had a chance...

2. Person who ordered RED ONE, does not have it yet and would likely choose Scarlet over RED ONE if he had a chance...

3. Person who ordered RED ONE, does have it (CONGRATS!!!) and would not likely choose Scarlet over RED ONE if he had a chance...

4. Person who ordered RED ONE, does have it (CONGRATS!!!) and would likely choose Scarlet over RED ONE if he had a chance...

5. Person who never ordered RED ONE, does know about Scarlet and still is likely to go for RED ONE...

6. Person who never ordered RED ONE, does know about Scarlet and still not likely to go for RED ONE given that Scarlet is coming soon...

Please NOTE that this poll does not include the option to buy Scarlet as a companion to RED ONE or vice versa...
This poll is intended for those who would (or would not) choose between the two...

John Caballero

04-04-2008, 07:56 PM

It is going to be a mighty big task for Red to fulfill the orders if the camera turns out to be a technological knock-out even at up to a $10,000.00 price tag. From the experience of having to wait for my HVX way after it was introduced I am not holding my breath expecting a Scarlet for a while.
But who knows, they might be cranking them out in China or Taiwan as we speak. We will know soon enough.

Peter Majtan

04-04-2008, 08:18 PM

But who knows, they might be cranking them out in China or Taiwan as we speak. We will know soon enough.

I hope not - this is exactly what I am afraid off. The (most-likely) demand for Scarlet could force RED to outsource the manufacturing to "cheap labor" in Asia - reflecting on the final quality of the product...

Having said that - I need to shoot myself in a foot (twice):

A) That is not to say that all Asian labor is low quality - there are certainly some great quality products coming out from Asia, as they is plenty of "American or EU made crap" out there...

B) RED could use the demand to justify government (or private/public) funding to create much-needed jobs in USA to boost the economy by constructing new manufacturing facility to handle the production of both RED ONE and Scarlet and other shades of red in the future... This is however unlikely to happen fast enough...

John Caballero

04-04-2008, 08:29 PM

It is such a difficult situation with the manufacturing in the U.S.A. and the labor costs. I believe Caterpillar products by example are produced here but they have very pricy items. It is sad but a very bleak reality.

John Caballero

04-04-2008, 08:39 PM

I was looking at my HVX and it is indeed manufactured in Japan itself. I wonder how is the labor cost situation there and if the Japanese government works out some kind of special deals to help its manufacturers as well as the working citizens. After all Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Nikon and many others are all Japanese products.

Peter Majtan

04-04-2008, 08:46 PM

I have lived in Japan for almost 3 years and had pleasure to worked on high-end R&D projects, that allowed me to visit both Sony and Canon R&D and manufacturing plants. The reality is that lot of the "labor" is highly automated, resulting in great quality (machines don't usually make mistakes or get tired...) and economical solution in the long run...

PS: The average "minimum" salary is ¥ 300000,- (about $ 3000,- USD) per month plus double of month's salary once a year as a bonus.
Salaries in excess of ¥ 500000,- (about $ 5000,- USD) per month are normal for skilled labor...
This however needs to be placed in a picture together with the extremely high-cost of living... (which does not change the fact that the labor is expensive! It only makes some a little less jealous...)

Bruce Allen

04-04-2008, 08:49 PM

John Caballero

04-04-2008, 08:54 PM

Technology is advancing so much it is affecting life in so many ways. What are people with less education going to do to earn a decent living? Manufacturing was a place for many to earn their money and put food in their family table and it is even been replaced by automation and robots. Very sad.

Peter Majtan

04-04-2008, 08:56 PM

Funny thread... you guys do know Red One is manufactured in Singapore, right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, Apple's "we underestimated demand" excuse is possibly just a cover for the "real" reason they're running out of stock - because they're prepping a 3G model.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

A) The point is that the huge demand could justify local manufacturing...

B) That has been the perception of many, the real reason is the demand:

"Claims that Apple's sudden lack of iPhones is sign of an imminent upgrade to 3G are unrealistic, Royal Bank analyst Mike Abramsky said on Thursday in a note to investors.
Instead, Apple is more likely to have simply underestimated demand. Investigations suggest that the iPhone maker dropped its build rate by as much as 50 percent in the first quarter of 2008, assuming that demand would drop sharply after the holiday; that sales rate remained steady, Abramsky says. He also notes that Apple has had a recurring difficulty in estimating iPhone demand, including sales of unlocked devices."

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/04/03/rbc_on_shortage_apple_vs_big_apple_t_mobiles_99_eu ro_iphones.html

C) This is anyway NOT the focus of this thread...

jimhare

04-04-2008, 09:00 PM

Shouldn't there be a poll item for:

Ordered RED, will consider ordering Scarlet as well

This is what I would select.

Peter Majtan

04-04-2008, 09:25 PM

Shouldn't there be a poll item for:

Ordered RED, will consider ordering Scarlet as well

This is what I would select.

As I have noted just bellow the detailed option description:

"Please NOTE that this poll does not include the option to buy Scarlet as a companion to RED ONE or vice versa...
This poll is intended for those who would (or would not) choose between the two..."

John Caballero

04-06-2008, 09:14 AM

According to DV Magazines' NAB special issue Scarlet will start selling at the show.

Ethan Cooper

04-06-2008, 09:28 AM

I read the DV thing last night too, and I think they're wrong. In the same article they said that Red was going to let the initial 100 Red One owners have first dibs on Scarlet, but didn't Jim do away with that notion early on? Am I just making that up?
________
Weed (http://www.youtube.com/dispensaries)

John Caballero

04-06-2008, 09:34 AM

I guess it adds fuel to the speculation. Thanks God its only a week.

planet e

04-06-2008, 09:36 AM

According to DV Magazines' NAB special issue Scarlet will start selling at the show.

i think that is wrong, too...in the original announcement, jim said a prototype would be at NAB. it would be great if that has changed, but i just don't see DV magazine as the mouthpiece for announcing such a change. more likely, it is a mis-perception, but RED has been loaded with surprises, so who knows?

John Caballero

04-06-2008, 09:42 AM

I guess things could change at any time with Red. They could have a first batch of cameras ready by NAB to then be backed up for two years with a million orders.

Bill Anderson

04-06-2008, 04:51 PM

I'm running with the " proffessional- NOT PROSUMER" tag; consider the guys that are designing Scarlet. What does "not prosumer" mean to them?
They're not CEO's interested in mimicking to make a few bucks when the can invent and make a few bucks. They enjoy this schtick- although I can imagine there are days when "enjoy" might not describe their feelings. So when they say, "not prosumer" we should at least consider the RED end of the spectrum, and not the HV-whatever end.

Even if Scarlet came in at 2k quality and got in the RED image quality ballpark, it's still not going to cannibalize RED because RED's geared beautifully to the future of pro style productions and post.
Super16 lived in harmony with 35mm.
How many filmmakers that required the abilities of a RED system, (and could afford it) opted instead for a Canon XLH1? my guess would be "none". And even if Scarlet trounces the "prosumer" Canon, that ratio will still hold true. Scarlet will promote more RED addicts, over the long haul. My Guess.

Gunleik Groven

04-06-2008, 05:03 PM

The choices do not cover me. Have RED ONE, happily waiting for Scarlet and will probably buy it if it suits my needs.

Zack CC

04-06-2008, 05:18 PM

Peter Majtan

04-06-2008, 09:15 PM

I've started this thread based on the following assumption:

A) Scarlet is going to be PRO (not prosumer) at 2K resolution (as trademarked by RED)
B) Considering Canon's cameras (the preferred choice of indy FM) are rated "prosumer" it is going to be better than them - and that is hell-of-a-camera!
C) Is not going to compete with RED ONE - therefore is not going to be anywhere near to RED ONE's price tag - we could realistically assume between 5K ~ 8K (but RED can surprise us by cost bellow 5K! - this would actually give another meaning to "pocket" camera - meaning that You could afford one out of the "pocket"...)

Now if Scarlet has all the three above (and there is no reason to believe it won't) - it is going to be an absolute bestseller (especially if priced bellow 5K!!!)...

Now RED might have few ready for sale at NAB (but I doubt that), but it for sure does not have sufficient stocks to fill the expected demand. I think they are greatly underestimating what is going to happen...

Given the backlog on RED ONE's - there is going to be a lot of upset people...

Also there is one thing to consider (why I've also asked the original question):

In the current world technology is developing at rocket pace with many camera manufactures introducing new models every 6 months or at least once a year. Now someone like RED announces RED ONE (last NAB), people go ahead to pay the deposit to get in the very long line and wait for over 6 months for the "baby" to arrive. Before that happens - a new camera is on the market and some might have rather chosen the new option (as You can see from the poll)...

This is the real problem! Is RED really ready to handle the expected demand for Scarlet while improving delivery of RED ONE? If not - they might loose more then they think...

The biggest assets RED team has (for now) is their (R)evolutional thinking, PRO image and great reputation...

Lets hope this won't change...

Peter Majtan

04-06-2008, 09:27 PM

I would like to add one more thing:

Lot of people are waiting for NAB to buy their new cameras - and I mean LOT!!! Just browse forums like this one and You will get the picture...

Now most of them are having budgets between 2~5K (Clearly NAB is not consumer show and people with budgets around 1K would have already bought HV20 or HV30)...
And people with larger budgets are already wait-listed for RED ONE's ;o) - and they are not after Scarlet...

If RED releases Scarlet, but people would have to be wait-listed for god knows how long - they will go and buy something else. Maybe not everyone, but many. Realistic delivery would be within 30 days from date of purchase.

I am certainly one of them. Our company is about to start producing TV show and I have to choose (and buy) our camera platform by end of May. We are thinking roughly 5~7 cameras. As much as might love what Scarlet is going to be - if I can't get hold of it this year, I will go with Canon (due to the excellent glass we already have and share with our photo department)...

Lets see...

KETCH ROSSi

04-06-2008, 11:10 PM

I'm finally getting my RED's and now that I know about Scarlet, I'll likely end up buying IT as well, but nothing in the near future will replace RED, not for me, not for some time to come.

Scarlet, it will be no doubt a great camera, but not even close as to be considering IT vs. RED.

I think very likely the Scarlet will be my behind the scene camera.

Ciao

Ian Laurie

04-07-2008, 01:36 AM

well call me crazy, but this poll is kinds hard for me too answer. on the one hand i have not ordered anything yet but am seriously looking at the red. on the other I DON"T KNOW WHAT SCARLETT IS YET! how can i make a decision until i at least have more info than "POCKET PROFESSIONAL CAMERA" having said that i am gonna go with the red on the poll simply by the pocket basis, pocket says to me too small to be taken serious as professional. although i hope to be wrong so that i can change my mind when it does come time to order.

Stuart English

04-07-2008, 06:02 AM

One more week...

Andrew Hewlett

04-07-2008, 12:48 PM

I would like to add one more thing:

Lot of people are waiting for NAB to buy their new cameras - and I mean LOT!!! Just browse forums like this one and You will get the picture...

I'm one of those people. Either I pop for Scarlet now, or continue to save for Red One, or I throw more of my money at Sony or Panny, which I'm tired of doing.

brandon herman

04-07-2008, 01:29 PM

I feel like Scarlet is a bit of a ways off, only because I can't imagine RED just saying "Here she is. Hope you like her."

I imagine them showing a prototype and asking "This is what we were thinking; any ideas?"

Also, in terms of price, I don't see why someone can't fix all the problems of a HV20 (1080p, approx $800), record it to CF cards in Redcode, and charge under $2000 for it. And if anyone can do it, it's RED.

Fix

04-07-2008, 02:00 PM

I don't think Red owners should feel threatened by Scarlet. Why would they make a camera even remotely close to RED ONE. They already own the cinema marked as I see it and the RED ONE is about twice as small than about any other cinema camera out there.

My shoot on this would be a insane EFP/ENG camera. Small, easy to handle and superb image quality (sharp/not shallow DOF) for a one man run N gun show. No more heavy shoulder cam to get those top notch pictures. A real action cam if you want. And if they succeed they get a big piece of both markeds... $

And btw. Jannard need a small fender cam :)

Bing Bailey

04-07-2008, 03:14 PM

will RED have to deal with the same thing other companies deal with now?not wanting one product to cannibalize another product/market

Bing Bailey

04-07-2008, 03:17 PM

I imagine scarlet will find its way into eng and the documentary films all over the world. if it is what we think it is. maybe that will help all those stations go HD - just need the work flow to sing with all the apps we use. can't wait until after effects and colour can read r3d files natively with no export until final output

Peter Majtan

04-07-2008, 06:46 PM

I don't think Red owners should feel threatened by Scarlet.

The question was whether RED ONE owners (and especially wait-listed owners) are going to be "upset", not "threatened", by the announcement (and a possible release) of 2K Scarlet...

4K is the equivalent of 65mm IMAX, while the equivalent of 35mm is 2K. Indi filmmakers have been "satisfied" even with MiniDV, not to mention the current wave of HDV gear (with prices bellow 1K). For many 2K is more then enough.

More than the resolution I think they are looking for variable frame rates, digital RAW data acquisition and interchangeable lenses...

Year ago the only "affordable" camera offering this was RED ONE (coupling it with 4K ability and host of other PRO features). This was before HVX200...

I believe that many would "settle" for "just 2K" if they had a chance - especially giving the fact that we can expect the price to be bellow 5K...

Just see the current poll - 7 (compared to 5) of the "wait-listed" owners would have considered Scarlet instead of RED ONE, have they been given a chance... Even 3 (compared to 6) of the lucky guys who already have RED ONE would have considered Scarlet instead of RED ONE...

I am not saying that Scarlet will compete with RED ONE or be anywhere near it. It will probably "cannibalize" few RED ONE sales, but make up for it in the volumes...

RED is clearly backlogged with RED ONE orders, now imagine what is going to happen when Scarlet's out...

Peter Majtan

04-07-2008, 06:58 PM

Also notice that many - 12 (compared to 21) still want RED ONE regardless of Scarlet - clearly demonstrating that there is market for both cameras...

Also the ratio (almost 1:2) is about "right" for the initial separation of "indies" from studio-backed filmmakers who won't accept anything but the best RED can offer... (Not taking in account few "rich" indies...) ;o)

This ratio could further fall to 1:5 (or even 1:10, or more...) if the cost does goes bellow 5K (or 2K respectively). I estimate this based on brief (and very limited) research and my own experience in the industry...

Mind You - this is all just an speculation and "opinion" on my part...
No one really knows what Scarlet is going to be and how much is going to cost - altho I believe we all do have "pretty good idea"...

Maybe Jim could could start a competition for who can guess closest the actual features and price of Scarlet - never ming the "pocket" size, shape or form... ... winer getting Scarlet (or RED ONE!) of course...

Ameer Azari

04-08-2008, 10:40 AM

So far, very little of this post has anything to do with unhappy RED ONE ers

But it's still fun to talk about labor...uhh...Geography lessons, case studies...34 days till my GCSEs!!! aHHHH!!!. back to chemistry revision....

Ameer Azari

04-08-2008, 10:41 AM

Peter Majtan

04-08-2008, 11:23 AM

Also - see the actual poll:

So far out of the 22 owners and wait-listed owners (excluding the last two categories) 11 would have considered Scarlet instead of RED ONE - that is 50% !!!

Also if You look just at the wait-listed owners - majority (8 compared to 5) would have considered Scarlet instead of RED ONE - that is over 60% !!!

I know that the number of people who participated so far is small, but if it at all represents the average trend - that is a lot of people "little upset" out there...

Take in account the human nature which would prevent some proud RED ONE owners to admit that they would consider Scarlet instead (after all I am sure they are way too happy with RED ONE) - those numbers could have been even worse...

Peter Majtan

04-10-2008, 11:57 AM

Jim's marketing department should initiate a polls like this. Looking at the numbers it gives You pretty good idea about the targeted customers. I think REDUSER forum's members would like to participate in any marketing research initiated by RED. Other companies pay fortune to have this kind of research done for them...

MDSleep

04-12-2008, 01:52 PM

"but if it at all represents the average trend - that is a lot of people "little upset" out there..."

there is a huge leap of logic from the poll to trying to decipher how many people would be upset about scarlet. your poll doesn't address that at all from what I see.

PeterM

04-12-2008, 10:26 PM

We belong to the people just want the REDone regardles of Scarlet.
It maybe an additional option in future, who knows.
Our suboffice in Asia just order an other Red before the NAB.
I do not know what Scarlet will be but I think it will face competition from a lot of side.
In the >ENG from Sony EX1
In the mini HDTV for robots and 3D from SI 2K or others
From the prosumer from the really good Canons
I hope Red understand that professionals do not want to be pushed back with their Red orders because of focus to Scarlet.
If Scarlet is really a good product it will be enhance the orders for the REDone
Its as simple as you start with a Nikon D 40X and you will jump to a D3 if you need higher standard.
But maybe I hope LOL a lot of Red Reservation holders want to change to Scarlet so the deliveryschedule for RED one will be more quick

Jannard

04-12-2008, 10:39 PM

Shouldn't there be a poll item for:

Ordered RED, will consider ordering Scarlet as well

This is what I would select.

This is the correct response...

Jim

Aiden Cornwell

04-12-2008, 11:01 PM

To me the fact Scarlet will be redraw automatically uts it in the pro relm. Also the term prosumer and pro mean nothing. Several movies and TV shows are shot with what many would consider prosumer gear. The PRO comes from those using the gear.

Gunleik Groven

04-12-2008, 11:07 PM

... and the "sumer" from those watching it.

Joel Kaye

04-12-2008, 11:29 PM

This is the correct response...

Jim

LOL! :greedy:

robbo

04-13-2008, 02:02 AM

double lol

vff

Stephen Williams

04-13-2008, 02:20 AM

Hi,

I wonder if Red One owners are worried by a camera almost as good for a 1/3 of the price, or 1/10 of the price when accessories are factored in.

Now thats what I call a revolution!

Stephen

robbo

04-13-2008, 02:32 AM

Stephen - I don't ever recall you stirring the pot before :-)

Heck - let's see what it's going to be ... not long.
( I think I need tin foil - where's that SJ rdf hat, dear....)

Stephen Williams

04-13-2008, 02:38 AM

Stephen - I don't ever recall you stirring the pot before :-)

Heck - let's see what it's going to be ... not long.
( I think I need tin foil - where's that SJ rdf hat, dear....)

Hi,

You didn't expect the revolution to end with Red one, that's where it started!

Stephen

robbo

04-13-2008, 02:50 AM

Hi,

You didn't expect the revolution to end with Red one, that's where it started!

Stephen

Where's the fcuking hat ?
shit -

Aaaah - now I'm ok

Peter Majtan

04-13-2008, 09:11 AM

This is the correct response...

Jim

Jim, as I've said before, sure there is a space for such an option and many more - but not in this thread. This tread is focused on people who would choose one (not necessarily The ONE) over the other and most importantly how that fits in a picture with the "Now serving No. XXXX" wait-list system...

As much as I love what You guys are doing - and as much as I will end up buying both for our business - I don't like the fact that something great comes up, I pay deposit and sit patiently in a line and before it is my turn something else comes out that might have been sufficient for me in the first place...

Now with the current backorder on RED ONE are You guys "ready" for Scarlet? If You announce this (most likely) fantastic product, but You will not make it available in reasonable time frame and quantities, I don't even want to speculate what will follow... There are people pretty suicidal just knowing the "she" is going to be announced... :innocent:

Teasing does work wonders, but overdoing it can have the opposite effect. Kinda like the "Better sparrow in a hand, than fat pigeon on a roof" - I can start seeing the banners on SONY's and others web site already...

I wish You and Your team the very best and hope that You guys are "ready" for us...

Jannard

04-13-2008, 11:21 AM

I don't like the fact that something great comes up, I pay deposit and sit patiently in a line and before it is my turn something else comes out that might have been sufficient for me in the first place...

Who said that was a possibility? You are upset before you know anything? Wait a day and then be upset (or not).

Jim

Ameer Azari

04-13-2008, 01:37 PM

Who said that was a possibility? You are upset before you know anything? Wait a day and then be upset (or not).

Jim

OOOOOOH! YOU JUST GOT SERVED by the JANNARD!!

haha...(wipes away tears)

David Dennis

04-13-2008, 02:28 PM

I think that most RED One users are after exactly what the RED One is, and so you won't see them in this forum.

That means those happy people will not even see this poll and will not participate in it.

That's why the figures are so slanted towards Scarlet; this forum is full of interested potential Scarlet customers, most of who (like me :-( ) could not afford RED One.

Of course there are RED One customers who will also buy Scarlet and those might be commonly seen here too, and as Jim says, their poll option is missing :-(.

So I would not be too worried about Scarlet based on this poll. As noted elsewhere on the thread, I think it will be common for people like Jim to own RED One and get a Scarlet for that all-important behind the scenes footage, which RED One wouldn't do that well thanks to the need to set up focus and exposure precisely in advance. Scarlet is ENG-style (or so it seems) and therefore perfect for the likes of me, coming from an XL1. Price is the only big concern for me :-(.

D

John Caballero

04-13-2008, 02:30 PM

just a few more hours and we shall all see who might be upset and who will be jumping up and down with pure joy.....

Ameer Azari

04-13-2008, 03:02 PM

I hope I will be jumping up and down with pure joy...

Peter Majtan

04-15-2008, 07:16 AM

Well - now we know (in a way) what is coming, it is going to be interesting to see if the poll stats change...

Gunleik Groven

04-15-2008, 07:17 AM

I still don't see the "Have RED, will order Scarlets" option...

Peter Majtan

04-16-2008, 08:57 AM

I still don't see the "Have RED, will order Scarlets" option...

Ignorance is bliss... I have number of times pointed out that:

"Please NOTE that this poll does not include the option to buy Scarlet as a companion to RED ONE or vice versa...
This poll is intended for those who would (or would not) choose between the two..."

So this thread/poll was clearly not intended for You... No offense...

Now that Scarlet specs are known - this poll is even more interesting...