Charlton Heston Dies at 84

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

An iconic actor.

http://imdb.com/name/nm0000032/

Starred in my personal absolute all-time favorite movie:

Ben-Hur. (http://imdb.com/title/tt0052618/)

May his soul rest in peace.

:meh:

[Yannick Hagman]

Well, personally he was a not very bright-minded lobbyist for the national rifle association.

[Kevin Lang]

Well, personally he was a not very bright-minded lobbyist for the national rifle association.

You filthy ape!

[Yannick Hagman]

You filthy ape!

Swearing for the sake of arguments. That's also very bright...

[mdo]

Well, personally he was a not very bright-minded lobbyist for the national rifle association.

I guess it takes a fairly dim wit to allow oneself to be suckered by Michael Moore.

[Matt Gottshalk]

I guess it takes a fairly dim wit to allow oneself to be suckered by Michael Moore.

QFTMFT.

He was actually a GREAT spokesperson for the organization.

[Yannick Hagman]

Who's Michael Moore? It's a well known fact.

[Kevin Lang]

Swearing for the sake of arguments. That's also very bright...

Just a quote from Planet of the Apes! Not a argument.:clown2: It has nothing to do with the fact I love guns too!

[Yannick Hagman]

Do whatever you want. Shot whoever you want. I don't care - there are better things to love boy. ;)

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I hoped that we can just show respect to the passing of a great artist.

Not talk politics.

But hey, you're free to do as you will.

[Matt Gottshalk]

Who's Michael Moore? It's a well known fact.

Because you say so...okay.

By what measure do you make this statement?

As a life member of the NRA, I can assure you that it is only opponents of what that organization stands that consider Mr. Heston anything but a great spokesperson for them.

RIP Charlton.

“Political correctness is tyranny with a happy face.” -C. Heston

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

I hoped that we can just show respect to the passing of a great artist.

Not talk politics.

But hey, you're free to do as you will.

Exactly! Come on kids, show some respect.

He was a great contributor to the art of motion picture making.

Let's not judge and talk politics.

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

[Matt Gottshalk]

'Winning the Cultural War' - Charlton Heston's Speech to the Harvard Law School Forum, Feb 16, 1999

I remember my son when he was five, explaining to his kindergarten class what his father did for a living. "My Daddy," he said, "pretends to be people." There have been quite a few of them. Prophets from the Old and New Testaments, a couple of Christian saints, generals of various nationalities and different centuries, several kings, three American presidents, a French cardinal and two geniuses, including Michelangelo.

If you want the ceiling repainted I'll do my best. There always seem to be a lot of different fellows up here. I'm never sure which one of them gets to talk. Right now, I guess I'm the guy.

As I pondered our visit tonight it struck me: If my Creator gave me the gift to connect you with the hearts and minds of those great men, then I want to use that same gift now to reconnect you with your own sense of liberty of your own freedom of thought ... your own compass for what is right.

Dedicating the memorial at Gettysburg, Abraham Lincoln said of America, "We are now engaged in a great Civil War, testing whether this nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure." Those words are true again. I believe that we are again engaged in a great civil war, a cultural war that's about to hijack your birthright to think and say what resides in your heart. I fear you no longer trust the pulsing lifeblood of liberty inside you ... the stuff that made this country rise from wilderness into the miracle that it is.

Let me back up. About a year ago I became president of the National Rifle Association, which protects the right to keep and bear arms. I ran for office, I was elected, and now I serve ... I serve as a moving target for the media who've called me everything from "ridiculous" and "duped" to a "brain-injured, senile, crazy old man." I know ... I'm pretty old ... but I sure, Lord, ain't senile.

As I have stood in the cross hairs of those who target Second Amendment freedoms, I've realized that firearms are not the only issue. No, it's much, much bigger than that. I've come to understand that a cultural war is raging across our land, in which, with Orwellian fervor, certain acceptable thoughts and speech are mandated.

For example, I marched for civil rights with Dr. King in 1963 - long before Hollywood found it fashionable. But when I told an audience last year that white pride is just as valid as black pride or red pride or anyone else's pride, they called me a racist. I've worked with brilliantly talented homosexuals all my life. But when I told an audience that gay rights should extend no further than your rights or my rights, I was called a homophobe.

I served in World War II against the Axis powers. But during a speech, when I drew an analogy between singling out innocent Jews and singling out innocent gun owners, I was called an anti-Semite. Everyone I know knows I would never raise a closed fist against my country. But when I asked an audience to oppose this cultural persecution, I was compared to Timothy McVeigh.

From Time magazine to friends and colleagues, they're essentially saying, "Chuck, how dare you speak your mind. You are using language not authorized for public consumption!" But I am not afraid. If Americans believed in political correctness, we'd still be King George's boys - subjects bound to the British crown.

[Matt Gottshalk]

(cont'd)

In his book, "The End of Sanity," Martin Gross writes that "blatantly irrational behavior is rapidly being established as the norm in almost every area of human endeavor. There seem to be new customs, new rules, new anti-intellectual theories regularly foisted on us from every direction. Underneath, the nation is roiling. Americans know something without a name is undermining the nation, turning the mind mushy when it comes to separating truth from falsehood and right from wrong. And they don't like it."

Let me read a few examples. At Antioch college in Ohio, young men seeking intimacy with a coed must get verbal permission at each step of the process from kissing to petting to final copulation ... all clearly spelled out in a printed college directive. In New Jersey, despite the death of several patients nationwide who had been infected by dentists who had concealed their AIDs - the state commissioner announced that health providers who are HIV-positive need not ... need not ... tell their patients that they are infected.

At William and Mary, students tried to change the name of the school team "The Tribe" because it was supposedly insulting to local Indians, only to learn that authentic Virginia chiefs truly like the name.

In San Francisco, city fathers passed an ordinance protecting the rights of transvestites to cross-dress on the job, and for transsexuals to have separate toilet facilities while undergoing sex change surgery.

In New York City, kids who don't speak a word of Spanish have been placed in bilingual classes to learn their three R's in Spanish solely because their last names sound Hispanic.

At the University of Pennsylvania, in a state where thousands died at Gettysburg opposing slavery, the president of that college officially set up segregated dormitory space for black students. Yeah, I know ... that's out of bounds now. Dr. King said "Negroes." Jimmy Baldwin and most of us on the March said "black." But it's a no-no now. For me, hyphenated identities are awkward ... particularly "Native-American." I'm a Native American, for God's sake. I also happen to be a blood-initiated brother of the Miniconjou Sioux. On my wife's side, my grandson is a thirteenth generation native American ... with a capital letter on "American."

Finally, just last month ... David Howard, head of the Washington D.C. Office of Public Advocate, used the word "niggardly" while talking to colleagues about budgetary matters. Of course, "niggardly" means stingy or scanty. But within days Howard was forced to publicly apologize and resign. As columnist Tony Snow wrote: "David Howard got fired because some people in public employ were morons who (a) didn't know the meaning of niggardly, (b) didn't know how to use a dictionary to discover the meaning, and ©) actually demanded that he apologize for their ignorance."

What does all of this mean? It means that telling us what to think has evolved into telling us what to say, so telling us what to do can't be far behind. Before you claim to be a champion of free thought, tell me: Why did political correctness originate on America's campuses? And why do you continue to tolerate it? Why do you, who're supposed to debate ideas, surrender to their suppression?

Let's be honest. Who here thinks your professors can say what they really believe? It scares me to death, and should scare you too, that the superstition of political correctness rules the halls of reason. You are the best and the brightest. You, here in the fertile cradle of American academia, here in the castle of learning on the Charles River, you are the cream. But I submit that you, and your counterparts across the land, are the most socially conformed and politically silenced generation since Concord Bridge. And as long as you validate that ... and abide it ... you are - by your grandfathers' standards - cowards.

Here's another example. Right now at more than one major university, Second Amendment scholars and researchers are being told to shut up about their findings or they'll lose their jobs. Why? Because their research findings would undermine big-city mayor's pending lawsuits that seek to extort hundreds of millions of dollars from firearm manufacturers.

I don't care what you think about guns. But if you are not shocked at that, I am shocked at you. Who will guard the raw material of unfettered ideas, if not you? Who will defend the core value of academia, if you supposed soldiers of free thought and expression lay down your arms and plead, "Don't shoot me."

If you talk about race, it does not make you a racist. If you see distinctions between the genders, it does not make you a sexist. If you think critically about a denomination, it does not make you anti- religion. If you accept but don't celebrate homosexuality, it does not make you a homophobe. Don't let America's universities continue to serve as incubators for this rampant epidemic of new McCarthyism.

But what can you do? How can anyone prevail against such pervasive social subjugation? The answer's been here all along. I learned it 36 years ago, on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, DC, standing with Dr. Martin Luther King and two hundred thousand people. You simply ... disobey. Peaceably, yes. Respectfully, of course. Nonviolently, absolutely.

But when told how to think or what to say or how to behave, we don't. We disobey social protocol that stifles and stigmatizes personal freedom. I learned the awesome power of disobedience from Dr. King ... who learned it from Gandhi, and Thoreau, and Jesus, and every other great man who led those in the right against those with the might.

Disobedience is in our DNA. We feel innate kinship with that disobedient spirit that tossed tea into Boston Harbor, that sent Thoreau to jail, that refused to sit in the back of the bus, that protested a war in Viet Nam. In that same spirit, I am asking you to disavow cultural correctness with massive disobedience of rogue authority, social directives and onerous laws that weaken personal freedom.

But be careful ... it hurts. Disobedience demands that you put yourself at risk. Dr. King stood on lots of balconies. You must be willing to be humiliated ... to endure the modern-day equivalent of the police dogs at Montgomery and the water cannons at Selma. You must be willing to experience discomfort. I'm not complaining, but my own decades of social activism have taken their toll on me. Let me tell you a story.

A few years back I heard about a rapper named Ice-T who was selling a CD called "Cop Killer" celebrating ambushing and murdering police officers. It was being marketed by none other than Time/Warner, the biggest entertainment conglomerate in the world. Police across the country were outraged. Rightfully so-at least one had been murdered. But Time/Warner was stonewalling because the CD was a cash cow for them, and the media were tiptoeing around it because the rapper was black. I heard Time/Warner had a stockholders meeting scheduled in Beverly Hills. I owned some shares at the time, so I decided to attend.

What I did there was against the advice of my family and colleagues. I asked for the floor. To a hushed room of a thousand average American stockholders, I simply read the full lyrics of "Cop Killer"- every vicious, vulgar, instructional word.

"I GOT MY 12 GAUGE SAWED OFF. I GOT MY HEADLIGHTS TURNED OFF. I'M ABOUT TO BUST SOME SHOTS OFF. I'M ABOUT TO DUST SOME COPS OFF..."

It got worse, a lot worse. I won't read the rest of it to you. But trust me, the room was a sea of shocked, frozen, blanched faces. The Time/Warner executives squirmed in their chairs and stared at their shoes. They hated me for that. Then I delivered another volley of sick lyric brimming with racist filth, where Ice-T fantasizes about sodomizing two 12-year old nieces of Al and Tipper Gore.

"SHE PUSHED HER BUTT AGAINST MY ...."

Well, I won't do to you here what I did to them. Let's just say I left the room in echoing silence. When I read the lyrics to the waiting press corps, one of them said "We can't print that."

"I know," I replied, "but Time/Warner's selling it." Two months later, Time/Warner terminated Ice-T's contract. I'll never be offered another film by Warner's, or get a good review from Time Magazine. But disobedience means you must be willing to act, not just talk.

When a mugger sues his elderly victim for defending herself ... jam the switchboard of the district attorney's office.

When your university is pressured to lower standards until 80% of the students graduate with honors ... choke the halls of the board of regents.

When an 8-year-old boy pecks a girl's cheek on the playground and gets hauled into court for sexual harassment ... march on that school and block its doorways.

When someone you elected is seduced by political power and betrays you... petition them, oust them, banish them.

When Time magazine's cover portrays millennium nuts as deranged, crazy Christians holding a cross as it did last month ... boycott their magazine and the products it advertises.

So that this nation may long endure, I urge you to follow in the hallowed footsteps of the great disobedience's of history that freed exiles, founded religions, defeated tyrants, and yes, in the hands of an aroused rabble in arms and a few great men, by God's grace, built this country.

If Dr. King were here, I think he would agree. Thank you.

[Kevin Lang]

Wow you go son!

[Yannick Hagman]

I became president of the National Rifle Association, which protects the right to keep and bear arms

That all seems very engaged to me..

And I would ask if that's a very bright right if I look at murder numbers in your country. We don't have a lot of murders here and guess what: more immigrants.

If it rains, you get wet.

[Matthew Rogers]

And I would ask if that's a very bright right if I look at murder numbers in your country. We don't have a lot of murders here and guess what: more immigrants.

Are you talking about Switzerland? Yes, we have a higher murder rate per population. However, considering that we have 300+ million people and Switzerland has around 8 million I don't think the numbers are linear. I think if Switzerland had 300 million people (and more land) the murder rate would probably be just as high. Some of that probably has to do with the fact that we are a bigger melting pot. How are you figuring immigrants? You may have a higher percentage, but that's because you have a lower total population. Heck, we have more illegal immigrants then you have population!

Look at (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate) and scroll down to the 2000's homicide rate. US is like 5.59% and pretty low on the list.

Also, I'm wondering about the fact that most households in Switzerland have guns in the house, but the gun crime rate is so low (and I believe over 60% of the gun crime rate is with illegal weapons.)

Matthew

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

What a great speech...

Is it included in the autobiographical book of Heston?

You simply ... disobey. Peaceably, yes. Respectfully, of course. Nonviolently, absolutely.

That's all that people really have.

Guns, dollars and cadillacs are just a consequence.

Disobeying got humans out of the caves and into the skies.

But if you do disobey, you'll be taken for mentally deranged. History proves that.

Anywhere...

It is sad that if a person or people don't constantly fight for their freedom, they're bound to lose it. Any person and any nation.

I'm even sadder, cause I'm a member of a nation which never had democracy (only imitations!) and I don't see it happening any time soon.

If you don't fight, you'll be enslaved.

Sad.

I'd prefer to live in peace, if I can.

But can I?..

[number6]

I will name one of my cameras Heston. Not because he was a great actor, but because he could see over the heads of everyone else around him. I hope my camera, by being named after him, can even partially recreate his capacity for vision.

[Emanuel A.]

I can't read the 2nd page just 'cause the filter of my hotel's net access doesn't allow me. But I should mention the traditional RIP, beyond any other controversia. Even agreeing with Michael Moore's on subject, when a man dies, it's also important to take in consideration what this man did or built. Maybe more than his own failures. Who doesn't have them?

[jaadgy akanni]

We do have a lot of illegal immigrants... ever since the late 15th century.

[Matt Gottshalk]

And I would ask if that's a very bright right if I look at murder numbers in your country.

The right to protect ones family and ones self is a natural right.

There are wolves in society, and there are the sheep.

And then there are the sheepdogs.

The fact that you lump in those who chose to defend themselves in with those who chose to commit crimes is very telling of the basis for your argument.

[number6]

What a great speech...

Is it included in the autobiographical book of Heston?

You simply ... disobey. Peaceably, yes. Respectfully, of course. Nonviolently, absolutely.

That's all that people really have.

Guns, dollars and cadillacs are just a consequence.

Disobeying got humans out of the caves and into the skies.

But if you do disobey, you'll be taken for mentally deranged. History proves that.

Anywhere...

It is sad that if a person or people don't constantly fight for their freedom, they're bound to lose it. Any person and any nation.

I'm even sadder, cause I'm a member of a nation which never had democracy (only imitations!) and I don't see it happening any time soon.

If you don't fight, you'll be enslaved.

Sad.

I'd prefer to live in peace, if I can.

But can I?..

Karapetkov...(not your real nom?) Thank goodness you can speak your mind here at REDuser.net!:whistling:

[Yannick Hagman]

You may have a higher percentage, but that's because you have a lower total population.

of course percentage. they don't life on the same spot, do they? it's 20.6 percent.


Also, I'm wondering about the fact that most households in Switzerland have guns in the house, but the gun crime rate is so low (and I believe over 60% of the gun crime rate is with illegal weapons.)

this has more to do with our I assume less violent mentality that there isn't happening more. but if something happens it's mostly waponery from the military. there is a strong relationship between the number of accesible rifles and snap-outs. everyone who attends the army takes his rifle home currently (therefore the high rate), this will change due to public pressure, because of all murders and also suicides with army rifles. but it points out the strong relationship between availability and homocides. of course in the usa it's even more delicate. I don't have a problem if someone can store his rifles properly, but people do snap out, it happens and nobody checks how responsible they are. and if anyone can walk in a store to get a rifle I think that's a problem. yeah.

[Yannick Hagman]

The right to protect ones family and ones self is a natural right.

There are wolves in society, and there are the sheep.

And then there are the sheepdogs.

The fact that you lump in those who chose to defend themselves in with those who chose to commit crimes is very telling of the basis for your argument.

So what's wrong with the system if you have to protect your family?

I can go to the park at night without any fear or waponery. why selling everyone a wapon then? in order to lead a life in fear?

of course the seperation of defenders and criminals is a very black and white one. there are many tragedies that don't fit in this mindset.

[number6]

So what's wrong with the system if you have to protect your family?

I can go to the park at night without any fear or waponery. why selling everyone a wapon then? in order to lead a life in fear?

of course the seperation of defenders and criminals is a very black and white one. there are many tragedies that don't fit in this mindset.

Muroshi, you live in the best country in the world and we in the U.S. live in the worst one. Now, let us mourn the passing of one of the best of us low-life Americans... please.

[Andrew Madu]

The right to protect ones family and ones self is a natural right.

There are wolves in society, and there are the sheep.

And then there are the sheepdogs.

The fact that you lump in those who chose to defend themselves in with those who chose to commit crimes is very telling of the basis for your argument.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." - Albert Einstein.

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." - Albert Einstein

Ben Hur, El Cid, Moses...absolute classics.

[chuck colburn]

Heston was the Alpha and the Omega man. lol

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Karapetkov...(not your real nom?) Thank goodness you can speak your mind here at REDuser.net!:whistling:

It is my name. :)

You think I'm a kind of spy, operating in reduser under fake name. That's an interesting story premise ;).

I'm not a spy yet, but I'll be one, when I GET my RED.

I'll be spying on the savagery of the surrounding world with my newly opened Third (4K) Eye of justice :).

OK, you're having fun of me, but these are serious issues.

And things are still pretty much under control here, despite the apparent euro-atlantic integration of my motherland.

[number6]

It is my name. :)
:) No, I thought you might be worried the "authorities" in your country may be monitoring what you are saying here. Knowing your highly refined sense of humor I thought you would appreciate that.:biggrin:

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Great actor.

[Yannick Hagman]

Muroshi, you live in the best country in the world and we in the U.S. live in the worst one. Now, let us mourn the passing of one of the best of us low-life Americans... please.

It's not and that wasn't the point. :)

[mdo]

So what's wrong with the system if you have to protect your family?

I can go to the park at night without any fear or waponery. why selling everyone a wapon then? in order to lead a life in fear?

of course the seperation of defenders and criminals is a very black and white one. there are many tragedies that don't fit in this mindset.

There are a number of factors that cause the problem of violence. Availability of guns is not one of those factors. Unfortunately, the subject is so extensive that it doesn't lend itself to quick sound bites. It would take quite a bit of time to detail the actual causes of violence at a level of detail that would make a persuasive presentation. However, you may be assured that there is a lot of effective work being done to address these causes.

I understand the scenario that you envision -- it's just not a reality. If one area has more violence than another area, the cause is not the amount of guns in the respective areas. One of the funniest parts of Michael Moore's film on the Columbine shootings was when he went to Canada and interviewed people there about safety in the community vs. ownership of guns. He found that the Canadians had a high rate of gun ownership coupled with low crime, the exact opposite of what anti-gun advocates claim should be the case. Also, in the US, violence rates decline when gun ownership restrictions are relaxed.

The US was founded on the principle that all persons are equal. That includes having an equal right to self defense. If you want to pick on the US, there are plenty of valid issues you could take up. Gun rights is not one of them.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

:) No, I thought you might be worried the "authorities" in your country may be monitoring what you are saying here. Knowing your highly refined sense of humor I thought you would appreciate that.:biggrin:

Aah. Now I got it.

My English understanding is not that deep yet.

You know, they probably are. I think this forum attracts a lot of eyes.

Legally, they can't do anything to me now. We're supposed to be a "democracy".

But, you know.. some doors might be shut.

I don't care.


highly refined sense of humor

Gee, thanks. I'm do my best. :bleh:

Gotta get that autobiography of Heston.

Great guy, I bet he's having fun in Heaven now.

[number6]

It's not

Oh yeaH! Well just name a better one than yours! I'm waiting... Can't do it, can you?:biggrin:

[Roberto B]

:) No, I thought you might be worried the "authorities" in your country may be monitoring what you are saying here. Knowing your highly refined sense of humor I thought you would appreciate that.:biggrin:what kind of world you live there gun lovers?..

for those still living before the fall of the berlin wall.. bulgaria is member of the european union.. got it?.. :mail1: europe = allies.. no more a comunist country.. since almost 20 years ago..

[Gordon Prince]

:) Good one...

*Edit* Here is an informative link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria

[number6]

what kind of world you live there gun lovers?..

for those still living before the fall of the berlin wall.. bulgaria is member of the european union.. got it?.. :mail1: europe = allies.. no more a comunist country.. since almost 20 years ago..

Karapetkov! I think I found the "authoritarian mole" who's been spying on you. I thought our posts would smoke him out. :detective2:

[Roberto B]

Karapetkov! I think I found the "authoritarian mole" who's been spying on you. I thought our posts would smoke him out. :detective2:i can't follow your humor.. too much for my taste.. reminds me that another post.. your post.. already.. smoke out?

[Roberto B]

here's the finest example of your sense of humor:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=189554&postcount=104

[Craig Ryan]

http://www.jarrett-net.com/images/offtopic.gif

[Simon Smith]

Isn't this an off topic section, after all?

[Gordon Prince]

I'd still say... Isn't this thread about a great actor that dedicated his last part of his life to an odd and reversal cause towards his past in his moving picture career?

[Roberto B]

nice try.. you are all (?) right..

[fightordie]

i can't follow your humor.. too much for my taste.. reminds me that another post.. your post.. already.. smoke out?

Don't give it a second thought filmmakers gang, he's from west Texas. they love their guns, god, and country. Anyone that questions that is authoritarian. Thats why they call it the lone star state.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

We do have a lot of illegal immigrants... ever since the late 15th century.

My favorite quote…ever.

Emmanuel

[Roberto B]

i did say nothing.. ehehehehe :innocent: or we should be accused of going OT once again.. :usd:

edit
anyway.. here goes.. only as topic now :) what should you expect?.. the power doesn't give up so easily.. or democratically sometimes.. only under the power of guns (fidel castro)

edit2
hey, did i mention the word gunssssssss?.. :sarcasm:

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

We do have a lot of illegal immigrants... ever since the late 15th century.

Was it you who met Columbus on the shore?

:clown2:

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

edit
anyway.. here goes.. only as topic :) what should you expect?.. the power doesn't give up so easily.. only under the power of guns (fidel castro)

edit2
hey, did i mention the word gunsssssss?.. :sarcasm:

You said the G word. :)

Otherwise, no. No Castros, please.

Just peaceful execut... I beg your pardon,... demonstrations.

:)

[Roberto B]

:) :)

http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/engel/angel-smiley-028.gif

[Anthony Gratl]

In short: the people , the political "elite" (scumbags) who've ruled Bulgaria for the last 20 years, and the last 10 euro-atlantic are the same communist people who ruled the country before the "fall" of communism. They're the same people.

The "different" political parties are all derivatives of the former communist party. They're just imitating democracy, because otherwise there would really be a civil war. They're under control.

But the government people are no democrats, they just adapted to the Western Wind in order to survive and keep their power to a certain degree. The Soviet Union was gone, Russia was\is weak and the knew they had no choice.


hmmmm doesn't sound so different from North America really, only here it's a total pr game 24/7. .
If you're making a comment or tribute to someone, they have to be judged on their life's work and what they did, not just a singular contribution to an industry. Heston shouldn't be seen only as a guy who acted, because he wasn't. So it's unreasonable to say that his highly political activities are out of bounds. Leni Riefenstahl anyone?

[number6]

Don't give it a second thought filmmakers gang, he's from west Texas. they love their guns, god, and country. Anyone that questions that is authoritarian. Thats why they call it the lone star state.

NASCAR... don't forget NASCAR. Actually, I do have guns but I don't love them. Don't even clean them regularly because I no longer hunt, so don't need to.

I "hunt" with cameras now, but I do not object to people who do hunt for food or even "sport", as long as they respect the right and the craft. I don't care for people who shoot for a high score of kills. (I have been guilty of this same body count behaviour when I was younger and I consider those as some of my darker days. My best and most memorable hunts were done alone and at the end of the day, I returned with the same number of unspent cartridges I began with. The lesson is, never hunt in a pack.)

god... I am an agnostic at the moment.

country... Yes, I love Texas... scratch that, not North Texas (damn Yankees) nor East Texas (High brow teasips), South Texas starting at San Antonio on doun is O.K., Central Texas is copasetic, and the Panhandle is good as well. Our neighbors to the north, the U.S., has some good and bad places, while our neighbors to the south, Mexico, also has good and bad spots.

Hope this clarifies where I'm comin' from.

[Roberto B]

my respect.. very humble from your part.. seriously.. btw, to be a believer is a good thing.. so, to have a God too.. it just depends of Who really is at y_our own eyes imho..

edit
since i'm trying to bring God to the topic on the way, can i consider myself as being not OT now?.. :)

[number6]

btw, to be a believer is a good thing.. so, to have a God too.. it just depends of Who really is at y_our own eyes imho..
Not ruling it out... just awaiting more evidence.


edit
since i'm talking about God, can i consider myself as being not OT now?.. :)

Yes, speaking of god is not off topic in this thread, since Heston was a God among actors.:)

[Roberto B]

got it!.. but you're forgetting his typical cecil characters too..

speaking about cecil.. isn't the same director who had denounced his mates of being comunists?.. :poster_oops: my apologies.. i forgot and added the word "c"..


hey, i'm not a "c".. so please, don't take me for the black list.. i need to feed my four wifes and..


i just love my soviet glass.. no more than that!


that's it.. now speaking seriously.. again.. may this great icon rest in peace.. he deserves it.. not for his last legacy.. but for his work giving us pictures which we'll never forget.. specially, that rifle raised on "his Moses" hand.. just kidding, just kidding.. :)


:usd: he will live forever in our collective imaginary.. :calm: am i on topic now?..

[number6]

:usd: he will live forever in our collective imaginary.. :calm: am i on topic now?..

Perfectly on topic:innocent:

[Yannick Hagman]

Availability of guns is not one of those factors.

Of course it is. There are about 5-7 cases where s father killed his whole familiy per anum here, because soldiers are allowed to take their rifles home.. and plenty suicides commited with them. It's not that they would use a hammer if they wouldn't find a rifle in their closet.

I never said, that mentality isn't a strong and probably bigger factor also.

[Yannick Hagman]

Oh yeaH! Well just name a better one than yours! I'm waiting... Can't do it, can you?

What about Canary Islands? :o)

[number6]

What about Canary Islands? :o)

Oh. Forgot about that one... you got me there.

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Just a frustrating precision: A lot of you refer to United States as 'Americans', or 'North America', etc... And that's pretty annoying to some, if not pretentious...

So just a precision, again, to state ;P that North America is a HUGE continent, hosting 5 very different countries: Canada, Greenland, United States, Mexico, Bermuda... I think we should call United States americans "united staters" or something... Because technically, Cubans are americans, funnily enough... So correct me if I'm wrong, but besides continent, not even land, I'm not sure Mexicans share a lot with Greenlanders, nor Cubans with Canadians... So as far as 'gun talks' are concerned, keep it to the USofAY please... Since that's what this now Eston/NRA thread is about...

As a Canadian living abroad in beautiful Paris, with TONS of friends I love in the US, I hate to be the miserable northern cousin of the USA, like, all the time in those discussions and I think it's about time people grow up and learn a little politics and geography... Respect each other and avoid conceptual and intellectual shortcuts... It's not nice to anybody to be categorized for their religion, color, nationality or else... we are in 2008 for CS...

And we are all Red here...

[Matthew Rogers]

Just a frustrating precision: A lot of you refer to United States as 'Americans', or 'North America', etc... And that's pretty annoying to some, if not pretentious...

So just a precision, again, to state ;P that North America is a HUGE continent, hosting 5 very different countries: Canada, Greenland, United States, Mexico, Bermuda... I think we should call United States americans "united staters" or something... Because technically, Cubans are americans, funnily enough... So correct me if I'm wrong, but besides continent, not even land, I'm not sure Mexicans share a lot with Greenlanders, nor Cubans with Canadians... So as far as 'gun talks' are concerned, keep it to the USofAY please... Since that's what this now Eston/NRA thread is about...


Except that I've never heard of a Mexican, Cuban, or Canadian refer to themselves as an American. In all my travels every time I've heard someone say, "American", they have referred to a person from the US. Therefore, I think it is fair to call us Americans. When other countries in North America add "America" to their country's name, then we can talk about changing the wording.

Matthew

[mdo]

Of course it is. There are about 5-7 cases where s father killed his whole familiy per anum here, because soldiers are allowed to take their rifles home.. and plenty suicides commited with them. It's not that they would use a hammer if they wouldn't find a rifle in their closet.

I never said, that mentality isn't a strong and probably bigger factor also.

Muroshi -- There are plenty of suicides that are committed with sleeping pills also. Did those sleeping pills cause the suicides? Because a means exists, does that "cause" people to access that means? You must believe that people just can't resist killing others if guns are around. All the evidence indicates the opposite.

Your position is actually a little bit different than you are perhaps willing to admit. Your position is actually that since some people are driven to violence and therefore cannot be trusted with firearms, and since we can't predict who those people might be, we should take firearms away from everyone.

It is a pretty thought. But it is utterly impossible to implement.

Why not get rid of the heroin problem by making heroin illegal? If heroin is illegal, there won't be any more of it. Right?

Simple observation will tell you that making heroin illegal only ensures that law-abiding people will not have heroin. Criminals on the other hand will have all they want. The same is the case for guns, except that guns are a lot easier to make in your basement. This is not really a matter for debate. Again, violence goes up, not down, when gun rights are restricted, and that is because criminals can have greater confidence that those they attack cannot defend themselves.

With respect to the actual causes of violence -- as long as people are chasing red herrings like gun control, the actual causes will remain unaddressed. You seem to have attention on the problem of violence, but I bet you have no idea how many prescription medications do in fact cause violence. How many of the soldiers who went home and committed suicide were being given prescription medications that are known to generate suicidal thoughts? The person who commits suicide has enough of an intention to do so to put a gun to his/her head and pull the trigger. Why are you so confident that if a gun weren't present they wouldn't do the same thing through some other means?

Violence is a real problem. Those who cause the problem prefer to talk about guns rather than the real causes. Don't help them to muddy up the water by echoing their misdirection.

[Lewis-M Soucy]

What you refer to as natives, we call in french "amérindiens", or "indiens d'amérique du nord"... To differenciate from "Indians from India" indians...

You're right buddy, I was kinda playing with words, and like someone once said on this forum, maybe I should've put more smiley's on my post, but all the same, it's a problem when it comes down to geo-politics... If I may...

I agree it's fair to call yourselves americans, nobody discusses that, I just think that it would also be fair to bring some new modern term like "afro-american", "native american", italo american"...

Could be "american american"...

Never thought I'd have so much fun just buying a camera... :clown2:

PS: Where's Eston? Gone hunting? err... Angels?

(sorry I can't help it, I'm just a sarcastic cunt...)

[Lewis-M Soucy]

karapetkov, you really started a mess! :)

If someone gets killed in that thread, you're responsible!

[Lewis-M Soucy]

I think it's time I quote Truffaut...

FERRAND

Tell him I speak English, but I don't understand it.

from "La Nuit Américaine" ("Day for Night" - 1973)

[jaadgy akanni]

Was it you who met Columbus on the shore?

:clown2:

Yeah, but I was out of luck 'cause I didn't have any guns or diseases to keep him at bay.

[Lewis-M Soucy]

And I tried to throw snowballs at him but he was too far...

[wshultz]

Wow. When I read that this great actor had died I thought to myself that now we're going to hear from some (insert weird name-types here) from (insert some foreign country here) who will attack this man's character and intelligence because one of the things he accomplished was representation of an organization promoting american freedoms?

Muroshi, do you ever get tired of people judging your country because you'll take money from any evil regime or person and keep it secret just so you can make a buck?

[Lewis-M Soucy]

I HAD A VISION!

Muroshi, the answer is in your avatar...

Guns are like a swiss knife that does just one thing...

Kill.

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Sorry, guns do 2 things!

It can also signals the start of a race...

[Yannick Hagman]

Muroshi -- There are plenty of suicides that are committed with sleeping pills also. Did those sleeping pills cause the suicides? Because a means exists, does that "cause" people to access that means? You must believe that people just can't resist killing others if guns are around. All the evidence indicates the opposite.

Just because there are doesn't mean that the subject is using them instead (it's about 99% versus something around 60%) and if someone uses them there is a lot lower chance that he suceeds in killing himself with sleeping pills. arms are the only almost certain way.

several university studies here revealed recently that availability is a major factor. they now have forbidden taking amunition home and we will see surprisingly results next year or so. it's a proven that in case of a snap-out availability is key. this is in fact very locigal. killing your family with a rifle is way "easier" than with a knife or a hammer after all and snap-outs are not well planned actions.


Your position is actually a little bit different than you are perhaps willing to admit. Your position is actually that since some people are driven to violence and therefore cannot be trusted with firearms, and since we can't predict who those people might be, we should take firearms away from everyone.

of course there's a unnecessary risk. it's not about violence, this snap-out subjects aren't usually very violent guys untill their final action and their motive isn't related to violence after all. they are guys who can't handle stress. and how violent is a father who was just to stupid to store his properly and letting his boys play around with it? i admit that this are seldom sportsmen.



Why not get rid of the heroin problem by making heroin illegal? If heroin is illegal, there won't be any more of it. Right?

It's not the same matter but I believe it is illegal in the US. It's not really the same issue because there is a timeframe for prevention till some drug-addict dies on heroin.



Simple observation will tell you that making heroin illegal only ensures that law-abiding people will not have heroin. Criminals on the other hand will have all they want. The same is the case for guns, except that guns are a lot easier to make in your basement. This is not really a matter for debate. Again, violence goes up, not down, when gun rights are restricted, and that is because criminals can have greater confidence that those they attack cannot defend themselves.

Yeah, criminals will earn bigger money by selling arms (which are not really easy to manufacture), but people don't feel urged to get them like drugs if I look around here.. If that would be the case we would have way more here in Europe where you need an approval and aren't allowed to wear 'em. The opposite is true, we have way lower homocide rates in western Europe countries, where arms are scarce or registered goods.



Violence is a real problem. Those who cause the problem prefer to talk about guns rather than the real causes. Don't help them to muddy up the water by echoing their misdirection.

That's true. But well, arms allow them to proceed their violence in a more dangerous way for everyone else.

[Yannick Hagman]

who will attack this man's character and intelligence because one of the things he accomplished was representation of an organization promoting american freedoms?

Promote freedom with arms? Now that's antagonism.



Muroshi, do you ever get tired of people judging your country because you'll take money from any evil regime or person and keep it secret just so you can make a buck?

You mean like the USA did. Not to say the current presidents family. ;)

No, unfortunately for me I don't work as a banker. But better ask this question to some guys at Merril Lnych to stay at present.

[Yannick Hagman]

Guns are like a swiss knife that does just one thing...Kill

You don't know about MacGyver. :o)

[Anthony Gratl]

When I read that this great actor had died I thought to myself that now we're going to hear from some (insert weird name-types here) from (insert some foreign country here) who will attack this man's character and intelligence because one of the things he accomplished was representation of an organization promoting american freedoms?


More americans are incarcerated per capita then anywhere else on the planet, including China, North Korea, and Saudi Arabia. What does that say to you about freedom in America?
And if the NRA is about defending american freedom, and it's to protect yourself against your government (which I can accept as a rationale), then how much worse does your federal government and political structure need to be in order for y'all to get on with it? (i mean c'mon, you get to choose between TWO parties, and there's no end in sight for corporate media domination, nor for actual public EDUCATION) At least, that's how it looks from here in non-america.

Thoughts from a "weird name guy" in a "foreign country" (a little xenophobic are we?)

[wshultz]

More americans are incarcerated per capita then anywhere else on the planet, including China, North Korea, and Saudi Arabia. What does that say to you about freedom in America?
And if the NRA is about defending american freedom, and it's to protect yourself against your government (which I can accept as a rationale), then how much worse does your federal government and political structure need to be in order for y'all to get on with it? (i mean c'mon, you get to choose between TWO parties, and there's no end in sight for corporate media domination, nor for actual public EDUCATION) At least, that's how it looks from here in non-america.

Thoughts from a "weird name guy" in a "foreign country" (a little xenophobic are we?)

That's funny. A little USAphobic are we?

[Eddie]

Muroshi... Charlton Heston was the man...and there is nothing you can do about it

Touch of evil - intro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nn1VO1HIPk)

And as far as I know, america is still a democracy, which means their gun policy is decided by the elected majority, not by propagandistic documentaries.
Why does so many europeans jump up and start preaching, taking it for granted that they know better than the majority of the people actually living in the country?
Availability is not neccesarily the main problem, because then you would have to prove that guns are more available to blacks and hispanics since they account for 8 out of 10 convicted murderers.
Problems in my oppionion are the many illegal immigrants, and the historical disadvantages of black people which together with the hugh-scale drugmarkets makes a violent cocktail of organised crime. However I have no idea what to do about it from a moral or political standpoint. But I know that making a whole documentary about NOT mentioning it and get ubelievably uptight, when the issue is raised by Heston, seems in my oppinion immoral and dishonest... but hey... I am a dane, how would I know. I have never even seen a gun.

[Emanuel A.]

Mods please change the thread to "Everyone bash the Frakking Americans..."

We all have problems guys, I am not happy with the "State of the United of The United States" and I was born and raised here... but I have also lived in many other countries and appreciate them for the good, for the unique and the interesting people.

I like most everyone here, but I find it very disrespectful to have these arguments at the feet of someone's death. A horrible death where one truly loses one's mind.

I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

The truly absurd angle is that this man, whether you liked his politics or not... he contributed more to the art and craft of Cinema more than the collective of anyone here... (you get what I mean)

Why is this necessary?dudeman is fully right. I second the motion. No matter what we're thinking about this or that subject. Just subjects, right? His work as picture maker is what does count now. His inheritance. What will prevail tomorrow.

[Anthony Gratl]

That's funny. A little USAphobic are we?

Not so much. Hitched, drove, bussed, and took trains through the good old usa. Met lots of kind and generous people. But your politics and laws and punishments are scary bad. Very limited and framed discussion in mainstream america. The O'Reilly Factor is the number one watched political show. Very myopic. Makes me a little concerned I suppose. You have very dangerous people in positions of power, from police to the pentagon and cia. Reaping death across the country and across the planet. The evidence is all over the place, and chronicled by many concerned americans. And the political leaders who want to make real change get shot. And don't get me started on the beer.

Having opened my trap as usual, I agree with Dudeman that the thread is way off topic and verging into poor taste. I've contributed to the wandering, also probably as usual. In this case though, I really didn't and don't wish to speak poorly or disrespect the departed, so rather take this reminder to make my own contributions to filmmaking and change, and bless the ground for every day of life it grants me.
Peace and goodwill to all.

[fightordie]

Muroshi... Charlton Heston was the man...and there is nothing you can do about it

Touch of evil - intro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nn1VO1HIPk)

Problems in my oppionion are the many illegal immigrants, and the historical disadvantages of black people which together with the hugh-scale drugmarkets makes a violent cocktail of organised crime.

You'd do well to read Immigrant crime as an exaggerated fear: the evidence here:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/toc.html#fear

Speaking as an American: Misinformation for votes. These kind of statements, political in origin, for political gain are despicable. Whats even more despicable is a public that buys into it.

Fear is American tradition and the basis for most of our problems. Politicians know this and use it to get elected or push their agendas. There are no boogeymen except the ones in our heads.

And for those Heston fans read this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/film-and-tv/features/charlton-heston-as-you-wont-remember-him-805398.html

But after 50 he lost it. Maybe the combo of Alzheimer's and Reagan, the creator of modern day divisive politics, made him into someone who says things like 'the mixing of the races' were the reasons for violence in America. Sad when you see what he did earlier in his life.

[Poi Boy]

Hes was a good but not a great actor. RIP
Aloha
-A

[mdo]

Just because there are doesn't mean that the subject is using them instead (it's about 99% versus something around 60%) and if someone uses them there is a lot lower chance that he suceeds in killing himself with sleeping pills. arms are the only almost certain way.

The question is cause and effect. You say guns cause suicide. I ask whether you also say that sleeping pills cause suicide. You go off on some other tangent. Answer the question directly: Am I correct that you say guns cause suicide, and if so, do you also say that sleeping pills cause suicide? Simple question. The reason why I pursue this is because this is the fundamental point that underlies the entire argument.


several university studies here revealed recently that availability is a major factor. they now have forbidden taking amunition home and we will see surprisingly results next year or so. it's a proven that in case of a snap-out availability is key. this is in fact very locigal. killing your family with a rifle is way "easier" than with a knife or a hammer after all and snap-outs are not well planned actions.

Do you wonder at all what it is that has caused the person to want to murder his family and himself?

You see, Americans love freedom -- and when freedom has been surrendered in the past it has always been as a wrong solution to some other problem. Taking guns away from people is the wrong solution to the problem of violence. If the cause of violence is not addressed -- and according to what you say, you don't appear to be interested in the causes of violence or to be taking action to find and address those causes -- then the only way to keep people from acting out on those unresolved violent tendencies will be to completely enslave them. Trying to solve a problem without knowing the cause of the problem always ends in disaster.

Then there is also the issue of out-of-control governments. Most persons who advocate gun control have total faith in their government. Something like another national dictatorial tyrant could never arise, they argue, therefore there is no reason for the populace to maintain its ability to defend itself. Americans tend to disagree with that. Here in the US we're probably pretty close to immune to most threats of that nature. So probably next time the curtain drops on international freedom, we're going to have to bail everyone out again. You should be happy that we will be sufficiently free to do so.


It's not the same matter but I believe it is illegal in the US. It's not really the same issue because there is a timeframe for prevention till some drug-addict dies on heroin.

Again, you miss the point. The sole significance of this point is that making something illegal does not prevent people from getting it. Making guns illegal will ensure that only criminals have guns. Any suggestion that criminals won't have guns is wishful thinking that has no basis in history.


Yeah, criminals will earn bigger money by selling arms (which are not really easy to manufacture), but people don't feel urged to get them like drugs if I look around here.. If that would be the case we would have way more here in Europe where you need an approval and aren't allowed to wear 'em. The opposite is true, we have way lower homocide rates in western Europe countries, where arms are scarce or registered goods.

It appears that the extent of your argument is that Europe has a lower violence rate and Europe has fewer guns, therefore guns cause violence. However, there is a significant amount of violence that does not use guns. Addressing guns is not going to solve the problem of violence, it is only going to leave honest men and women defenseless against it. Also, once violence is addressed and resolved, guns will no longer be an issue.

By the way, a weapon that will shoot one or two bullets is easy to manufacture. It doesn't have to be fancy or even particularly accurate.


That's true. But well, arms allow them to proceed their violence in a more dangerous way for everyone else.

True. Wouldn't you want to be able to defend yourself against that?

I think we both would like to see violence resolved so we can live in a calm, peaceful environment. We differ on our understanding of the causes and solutions.

[Yannick Hagman]

And as far as I know, america is still a democracy, which means their gun policy is decided by the elected majority, not by propagandistic documentaries.

It's a democracy. But it's also a democracy where you choose one of two(!) parties more or less by propagandistic commercials every four years and that's about it. It's not a direct democracy where you vote about issues after all. It's decided by the elected minority currently in charge.


Availability is not neccesarily the main problem, because then you would have to prove that guns are more available to blacks and hispanics since they account for 8 out of 10 convicted murderers.

It rather shows that whites can walk away with good lawyers. ;)


Problems in my oppionion are the many illegal immigrants.

Funny, my perception of illegal immigrants is more that of doing working-poor jobs.

[Priyesh P.]

It`s mainly a human issue. Not typically american, I believe that with the proper "tools" any country on the world can be turned into something like the u.s., that is: alleged freedom, fear, greed etc.
I see it like this: as long as certain things were advertised as indispensable, people will buy them (regardless of the nation they live in), and let`s face it: the american spirit (or tradition) is an out-and-out materialistic and fears based one. Just listen what`s told here: defend against the government (haha, I`d like to see what happens when some gun-owner out of this thread directs his weapon to a cop/soldier whatever...), protect his family (yeah, nobody seems to conclude, that when everyone has a gun, the criminals are much more merciless, cautious and deceitful - reality affirms it...)

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

karapetkov, you really started a mess! :)

If someone gets killed in that thread, you're responsible!

OMG,

People, keep it peaceful :).

Actually, I'm against guns... which kinda contradicts with something (http://www.vimeo.com/674683)I did recently... but student shorts and reality are two very different things. :)

What I admire in Heston the most is his beliefs about freedom of speech and the democratic spirit, in general.

These are really important things.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I think it's time I quote Truffaut...

FERRAND

Tell him I speak English, but I don't understand it.

from "La Nuit Américaine" ("Day for Night" - 1973)

Truffaut was a great, great film auteur.

Patricia Franchini: What is your greatest ambition in life?
Parvulesco: To become immortal... and then die.

From À Bout De Souffle (http://imdb.com/title/tt0053472/). (Where he's co-writer.)

[Eddie]

You'd do well to read Immigrant crime as an exaggerated fear: the evidence here:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/toc.html#fear

Fear is American tradition and the basis for most of our problems. Politicians know this and use it to get elected or push their agendas. There are no boogeymen except the ones in our heads.


well "fightordie" I wasn´t adressing immigration as such, but ILLEGAL immigration... you know the kind where you can´t get a job legally, and often don´t speak the language. This combination makes an incentive towards profitable ILLEGAL activity, like burglary, pushing drugs or weapons, trafficking, smuggling and robbing , which in their nature leads to confrontation with the victims of the different kinds of theft, and the natives already controlling these markets, not to mention the crimes done by the increased number of drug-addicts.
The outcome of all these confrontations leads more often to murder, than is the case with normal jobs. And that is what differentiates the US from Canada. Canada has more guns per capita than the US, but they don´t have a billion-dollar drugmarket, with different gangs fighting illegal immigrants, in order to make millions of people into raging addicts, once again contributing to the staggering crime and murder rates. Moore doesn´t mention this, because it messes up the distributed characters of villiains, heroes, and victims in his home-cooked fairy-tale. Heston does mention it, and receives the price as the greatest asshole in the world, responsible for 10.000 killings each year, including child-murderers off course.

The PC document you are refering to is obviously misleading, and seems to be about fighting discrimation by using ridiculous statistical material. Now I am all about fighting discrimation, but please, if you really mean it, do it properly.

with regard to "fear", I must say, I have a hard time following michael moores argument. "if there were no big corporations, and no alerting media in the US... then the it would be paradise on earth"... frankly, I don´t think so. Hating big corporations, ridiculous television shows and stoppping wall-mart from selling cartridges is fine, but I would be surprised if it made a crucial impact on the murder rate.


all the best eddie

[fightordie]

well "fightordie" I wasn´t adressing immigration as such, but ILLEGAL immigration... you know the kind where you can´t get a job legally, and often don´t speak the language. This combination makes an incentive towards profitable ILLEGAL activity, like burglary, pushing drugs or weapons, trafficking, smuggling and robbing , which in their nature leads to confrontation with the victims of the different kinds of theft, and the natives already controlling these markets, not to mention the crimes done by the increased number of drug-addicts.
The outcome of all these confrontations leads more often to murder, than is the case with normal jobs. And that is what differentiates the US from Canada. Canada has more guns per capita than the US, but they don´t have a billion-dollar drugmarket, with different gangs fighting illegal immigrants, in order to make millions of people into raging addicts, once again contributing to the staggering crime and murder rates. Moore doesn´t mention this, because it messes up the distributed characters of villiains, heroes, and victims in his home-cooked fairy-tale. Heston does mention it, and receives the price as the greatest asshole in the world, responsible for 10.000 killings each year, including child-murderers off course.

The PC document you are refering to is obviously misleading, and seems to be about fighting discrimation by using ridiculous statistical material. Now I am all about fighting discrimation, but please, if you really mean it, do it properly.

with regard to "fear", I must say, I have a hard time following michael moores argument. "if there were no big corporations, and no alerting media in the US... then the it would be paradise on earth"... frankly, I don´t think so. Hating big corporations, ridiculous television shows and stoppping wall-mart from selling cartridges is fine, but I would be surprised if it made a crucial impact on the murder rate.


all the best eddie

The report is dealing with both legal and illegal. from the first line of the introduction:
"In recent years it has become difficult to avoid perceiving immigrants, legal or not, as overwhelming this country with serious crime"

The point is that there is no statistic to be found that illegal immigrants are causing a crime wave. The only ones spouting that they are are xenophobic politicians and the American citizens that listen to them.

By the way do you know illegal immigrants pay taxes for services they can never use yet the American government keeps the money. Especially for social security. Money for you.

"In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes."

"In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?pagewanted=all

Some people want to grab the easiest target and blame them for the ills of the country.

[number6]

I think I see a pattern here. The anti-gun side grew up watching Barney, while the 2nd Amendment defenders grew up watching Yosemite Sam. Where's Chazmo when you need him?:gun: :biggrin:

addendum: no need to comment... just flash his avatar:)

[Anthony Gratl]

well "fightordie" I wasn´t adressing immigration as such, but ILLEGAL immigration... you know the kind where you can´t get a job legally, and often don´t speak the language. This combination makes an incentive towards profitable ILLEGAL activity, like burglary, pushing drugs or weapons, trafficking, smuggling and robbing , which in their nature leads to confrontation with the victims of the different kinds of theft, and the natives already controlling these markets, not to mention the crimes done by the increased number of drug-addicts.

dude, you've watched scarface once too often....it's the legal immigrants who are doing that shit....illegal immigrants mostly just want a job to help their families back home.


The outcome of all these confrontations leads more often to murder, than is the case with normal jobs.

That's like saying that race car drivers crash more often than commuters. Of course, I think "Falling Down" hit the nail on the head as to how many people in america are feeling. I'd be feeling that way too in L.A.:wacko:


And that is what differentiates the US from Canada. Canada has more guns per capita than the US, but they don´t have a billion-dollar drugmarket, with different gangs fighting illegal immigrants, in order to make millions of people into raging addicts, once again contributing to the staggering crime and murder rates.

Huh? You're right we don't have a billion dollar drugmarket, it's more like 10 billion, mostly run by, in no particular order: the various mafias, the asian, white, black, carib, hispanic, sri lankan, and biker gangs. We deport people on a daily basis who weren't born here, yet legally emigrated here and then committed crimes when they were older. Doesn't matter if they moved here when they were one. They go back to their country of origin. Kinda harsh culturally, but that's a different story.
By the way, it's your drug policy that makes things worse. Sending addicts to prison to learn advanced crime skills is not the way to deal with addiction. It's this crazy thing called "treatment", something your government routinely ignores medical data from around the world on, in order to enforce the Reagan inspired war on drugs. A disaster. An unmitigated, expensive, culturally suiciding, violent, and repressive disaster. And your government likes it that way. Keeps y'all distracted.



The PC document you are refering to is obviously misleading, and seems to be about fighting discrimation by using ridiculous statistical material. Now I am all about fighting discrimation, but please, if you really mean it, do it properly.

If you're about fighting discrimination, I would suggest you start by ceasing to make vast sweeping generalizations of complex and deeply rooted cultural issues, issues that are constantly sensationalized and overblown in the media to enforce those kinds of stereotypes and generalizations that you are making.


with regard to "fear", I must say, I have a hard time following michael moores argument. "if there were no big corporations, and no alerting media in the US... then the it would be paradise on earth"... frankly, I don´t think so. Hating big corporations, ridiculous television shows and stoppping wall-mart from selling cartridges is fine, but I would be surprised if it made a crucial impact on the murder rate.


Although we're jumping all over the map, it's fine by me. Everything is connected in this universe.
Killing is most often the end result of fear, poverty, and discontent. I would argue that big corporations are allowed to control how most of society's mind thinks in this modern culture of ours. It's why companies spend a trillion dollars a year on advertising. It works, and we're too "busy" to constantly filter through the bullshit.

Here's an experiment for you Eddie: it'll cost you nothing.
Turn off your television and your radio for one month and see how you feel.

[fightordie]

Hey Evolve come to America. We need more people like you to help us get our shit together. Unfortunately I know your answer.

[Mark B.]

It`s mainly a human issue. Not typically american, I believe that with the proper "tools" any country on the world can be turned into something like the u.s., that is: alleged freedom, fear, greed etc.

Americans aren't as greedy as you might imagine. Look at the disparity between rich and poor in the U.S. and you'll see it's primarily just a small percentage that has the greed to have taken most of the wealth. The rest aren't very greedy, though survival in America always requires some amount of thriftiness. In terms of fear and misunderstanding of freedoms, it's a media problem created by people in power, but hopefully as the Internet grows the controlling media sources will weaken. BTW, one of the "controlling tools" used by governments to remove freedoms is the introduction of gun control.


I see it like this: as long as certain things were advertised as indispensable, people will buy them (regardless of the nation they live in), and let`s face it: the american spirit (or tradition) is an out-and-out materialistic and fears based one.

The American spirit is one of entertainment and creativity. We like to learn, teach, build, invent, analyze, dream... some of us even like to have a good time. If we appear materialistic its because our activities require material possessions, we don't just buy possessions simply for the sake of buying possessions (obviously, some exceptions will apply). Also, many of our purchases are an attempt to navigate the lack of public services, the services our government fails to provide. For instance, most Americans own cars because we are provided completely inadequate public transportation.


Just listen what`s told here: defend against the government (haha, I`d like to see what happens when some gun-owner out of this thread directs his weapon to a cop/soldier whatever...), protect his family (yeah, nobody seems to conclude, that when everyone has a gun, the criminals are much more merciless, cautious and deceitful - reality affirms it...)

Americans try to be patient with governmental change, and the gun-owning Americans are mostly very moral (military and gangs aside). The act of taking up arms against the government would mean having to kill people (and politicians), and your average American isn't going to do that unless the situation gets VERY bad. If an uprising ever does happen, the privately owned guns will come into use. In the meantime, having the general public armed with guns gives us leverage so that we aren't treated horribly by the government. They don't act it, but governments know there's a limit to how much abuse they can foist onto an armed populace.

As for protecting the family, criminals can be fairly violent regardless of whether guns are involved or not. In general though, your typical criminal will avoid activities that pit them against someone who owns a gun, due to the increased risk of death. They might develop sneakier methods to commit crimes, but it will be to avoid brazen confrontation at gun-point, so ultimately fewer people will be injured when everyone has guns.

If you take away all guns (impossible, but let's pretend it could happen), the attackers will use machetes, axes, baseball bats, knives, crossbows, spears, flame-throwers, homemade explosives, just about anything that will overcome an unarmed opponent. If all weapons in existence are removed, they will use muscles and street fighting skills to overcome weaker inexperienced people (or they will get their thug friends to team up against one person). There is no way for people to defend themselves successfully unless equally powered weapons are available to everyone.

And to respond to the original topic of this thread...

I think Heston was a great actor, and a great advocate for freedom. I hope he is peacefully plinking in heaven right now.

[Andrew Madu]

....and a great advocate for freedom.

True freedom can only be acheived by self enlightenment. There are a few people/organisations which make a vast amount of money from selling and spreading fear.

[number6]

Apologies to all for briefly getting back on topic, but I've noticed that the obituaries seldom mention the Heston movie "Mountain Men", which he starred in with Brian Keith.

Along with Redford's "Jeremiah Johnson", that has been among my all time personal favorites and two of the most memorable love stories ever produced IMO. When Napster first appeared on the scene, I searched and searched for the soundtrack to both of those movies and never found them.

Another of his movies that will become prophetic, I fear, was Soylent Green. That was the most frightening movie I think I have ever seen.

[Yannick Hagman]

The act of taking up arms against the government would mean having to kill people (and politicians), and your average American isn't going to do that unless the situation gets VERY bad. If an uprising ever does happen, the privately owned guns will come into use. In the meantime, having the general public armed with guns gives us leverage so that we aren't treated horribly by the government. They don't act it, but governments know there's a limit to how much abuse they can foist onto an armed populace.

This is a very funny explination. Never thought that governmental mistrust is so widespread in the US! I thought it's a democracy. ;)


As for protecting the family, criminals can be fairly violent regardless of whether guns are involved or not. In general though, your typical criminal will avoid activities that pit them against someone who owns a gun, due to the increased risk of death. They might develop sneakier methods to commit crimes, but it will be to avoid brazen confrontation at gun-point, so ultimately fewer people will be injured when everyone has guns.

As I said before, statistics prove the opposite. If you look around here in western Europe. Guns use to attract very specific folks, not everyone of them should be allowed to wear them. ;)


If you take away all guns (impossible, but let's pretend it could happen), the attackers will use machetes, axes, baseball bats, knives, crossbows, spears, flame-throwers, homemade explosives, just about anything that will overcome an unarmed opponent. If all weapons in existence are removed, they will use muscles and street fighting skills to overcome weaker inexperienced people (or they will get their thug friends to team up against one person). There is no way for people to defend themselves successfully unless equally powered weapons are available to everyone.

LOL. :) So it's a self-renewing cycle so to speak. :) This was really funny to read. :) Truly a climate of fear. I guess it will end if everyone recognizes that there isn't so much to fear around us.

[Yannick Hagman]

you've watched scarface once too often....it's the legal immigrants who are doing that shit....illegal immigrants mostly just want a job to help their families back home.

same here. especially things like cleaning public toilets and other low pay staff nobody wants to do. these folks are way cleaner than most lawyers around here.. and of course they have absolutely no interest in crimes because it they would have to leave the country.

[fightordie]

Tommy Lee - You're the best.

http://www.02138mag.com/magazine/article/2471-3.html

[Roberto B]

:) :bleh: my fav post ever on this thread.. :)

Apologies to all for briefly getting back on topic..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWa3ouFWwJs

[Andrew Benz]

:) :bleh: my fav post ever on this thread.. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWa3ouFWwJs

Lights, Camels... Action!!! :)

[Emanuel A.]

(...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWa3ouFWwJsLights, Camels... Action!!! :)And here's the band's story:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/kevin.hopper1/Stump.html

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

This thread is all over the place.

I recently re-watched Ben-Hur and...

Yes.

:)

[Lewis-M Soucy]

There seems to be a lot of people with brains and strong opinions on this forum, that's a relief. Hopefully, with the help of that wonderful tool we are all here for, some will use it to express their views on the world too...

As for bashing the Americans, I think it's a good opportunity for everyone to build arguments and expand views and comprehension of others.

Think about the buddhist, don't get all cranked up, think wise, think calm. Adversity is more than often what takes you higher.

And as far as I'm concerned, Americans have pissed off enough of people on the planet in the last 40 years, let alone the last 15, it's just common sense to me you guys take the embarrasment for a minute here...

No big deal, you just can't win all the time...

It's going to take 50 years before the Arab community get out of the intellectual, political and social ghetto that your lobbying over Irak has put them into. Nobody likes them anymore. What do you make of that? Would that be any different if we didn't like you for 50 years coming?

You have bad press at the moment, what can you do? You have bad press. Let time do it's job.

But a lot of you are doing a pretty good one here too. That's encouraging. I start to have feelings for you again...

Hang in there! You live in a beautiful country, one of imagination, freedom and grandeur! Only it's lead by morons... Only you guys can do something about it... We can't do anything but bitch about it... Which is what we're doing here... We're bitching!

Get the message?

:)

PS: Sorry but I didn't have anything to say about Charlton Eston...

[Matt Gottshalk]

Would that be any different if we didn't like you for 50 years coming?


I'll keep that in mind to those from our country who died for yours.

http://photos13.flickr.com/19339255_158d831c70.jpg

[Lewis-M Soucy]

I know and I would never let anyone forget that, but if you read my post right, you'll notice I mention the recent years, not "forever"...

Y'know, I have a lot of American friends that comes here and say "thanks to Bush, we can't travel anymore... Everywhere we go, we get shit from people..." And they're really ashamed of their country, trust me!...

See, that's what I mean, the US passport used to be gold, you could cross the oceans with a feeling of pride and recognition... Now that's all stained...

I'm not criticizing you or anyone on a presonnal level, and as far as I'm concerned, it's only 51% of the Americans that I have a problem with...

And by the way, I'm Canadian... Wanna see our cemetery?

I knew this would happen. I knew I'd get that WWII line in my face... I clung to that post a very long time before clicking 'send'... But I thought what the hell, I also have something to say, and I'm not a xenophobic racist cunt, so let's just deal with our emotions and views on things and people...

With such a great country and beautiful past, what the fuck is going on? From hero to noho... Some people are taking you in the wrong direction I think...

To be honest, I'm super ashamed of Sarkozy at the moment and I take responsibility for it, (although as an immigrant, I can't vote) but everyday I fight against the issues I disagree with from his over-policed government and decisions, as I think that's part of my duty as a citizen. He's killing the education, arts and culture, which for centuries made France what it is today, to focus on silly "order" he wants to bring back... Like it's ever gone? That's why I moved to France! 'Cause you can say shit if you want! And be respected for it! It's one of the few countries in the world where as an artist you are not regarded as a looser or a bum... People respect you for it! Wow!

Education is the ultimate weapon for the future. It plants the seeds of what men will become. That's where all the money should go. If people were more educated, there would be less violence, thus less needs for guns... Splattered all over a wall is not the place for brains.

I like this hijacked thread because it opened an interesting and hot discussion that's only maintained to stay clean by the fact that we all share a common interest... The Red Camera!

Could it be that this camera also has the potential to avoid bloodsheds?! Can Red save lives?!

:)

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I'll keep that in mind to those from our country who died for yours.

http://photos13.flickr.com/19339255_158d831c70.jpg

Some of them died for your country too.

I think it was somewhere in the late 18-th century.

It was over some tea issue, dunno what it was exactly.

:shifty:

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Anyway, to cool things down, I welcome everyone on this thread to the Big Red Party in Cannes so we can share a moment together in the flesh! (and continue to discuss nazism and pedophilia on the beach over a beer of course)...

I buy a drink to the first person that comes to me and says the secret word "Charlton Eston"!

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

H

:)

[number6]

Anyway, to cool things down, I welcome everyone on this thread to the Big Red Party in Cannes so we can share a moment together in the flesh! (and continue to discuss nazism and pedophilia on the beach over a beer of course)...

I buy a drink to the first person that comes to me and says the secret word "Charlton Eston"!

Lewis, I am really embarrassed for my countrymen not jumping to challenge you on your previous posts... you must just understand that it is more important to you to say these things than it is for us to respond. Quite frankly, we just do not give a big rattatooey what people think of us. We are o.k. with who we are, and I hope you will not be offended that we are unimpressed by others' opinions of us. Sorry.

[fightordie]

I'll keep that in mind to those from our country who died for yours.

http://photos13.flickr.com/19339255_158d831c70.jpg

Speaking as an American. Using this photo in this discussion is an attempt to change the direction of whats being said here. Soldiers, and I know many very well, are not the decision makers, they do what they are told.

The focus has been, and I agree with our foreign friends, the decision makers in this country who currently and in the past have done more harm to soldiers, the constitution and our standing in the world.

I said it before I read tommy lee say it: If there were a draft in the U.S., man would things be different.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Speaking as an American. Using this photo in this discussion is an attempt to change the direction of whats being said here. Soldiers, and I know many very well, are not the decision makers, they do what they are told.

The focus has been, and I agree with our foreign friends, the decision makers in this country who currently and in the past have done more harm to soldiers, the constitution and our standing in the world.

I said it before I read tommy lee say it: If there were a draft in the U.S., man would things be different.


We just canceled the draft here.

Believe me, combat readiness and political adequacy don't have anything in common.

For example, Bulgaria is notorious for having won all of its battles, but also for having lost all of its wars [in the XX-th century].

All due to shortsighted and irresponsible politicians.

The draft might improve combat readiness [a little], but it won't save you from bad politicians. No matter what country we're talking about.

[fightordie]

We just canceled the draft here.

Believe me, combat readiness and political adequacy don't have anything in common.

For example, Bulgaria is notorious for having won all of its battles, but also for having lost all of its wars [in the XX-th century].

All due to shortsighted and irresponsible politicians.

The draft might improve combat readiness [a little], but it won't save you from bad politicians. No matter what country we're talking about.


My point has absolutely nothing to do with combat readiness. The majority of people in America could care less about the war and that fact may make it last longer than it should. A draft would have made people think twice about letting it happen in the first place.

My point is let more Americans carry the burden of this war because right now they've tuned out because it doesn't really affect them. Read up on American history during the late 60's when there was a draft and people went into the streets and protested their dissatisfaction. A draft makes people wake up and the costs become real personal, when their sons and daughters are liable to be put in a meat grinder. Right now all we have here is silence and people dying everyday. Both Iraqi civilians and American Military when Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with what happened in NYC. A draft will make politicians think twice about putting people into harms way.

[Clint Johnson]

"I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called." –a really smart American, Robert Anson Heinlein

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

My point has absolutely nothing to do with combat readiness. The majority of people in America could care less about the war and that fact may make it last longer than it should. A draft would have made people think twice about letting it happen in the first place.

My point is let more Americans carry the burden of this war because right now they've tuned out because it doesn't really affect them. Read up on American history during the late 60's when there was a draft and people went into the streets and protested their dissatisfaction. A draft makes people wake up and the costs become real personal, when their sons and daughters are liable to be put in a meat grinder. Right now all we have here is silence and people dying everyday. Both Iraqi civilians and American Military when Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with what happened in NYC. A draft will make politicians think twice about putting people into harms way.


I got it now. You have a point.

Political power is based solely on what people are ready to tolerate or not.

There's a saying [not sure of its origin] that every nation deserves its rulers.

If the Iraqi were willing to tolerate Saddam for as long as they did, they probably deserved it.

If my people are willing to tolerate our rulers, we probably deserve them.

.

Politics and politicians are simply an instrument and people should constantly make sure that this instrument works [I]for their interest and not against it. There should be a law, according which, if an aggressive war is to be launched, the sons of politicians should be the first to be sent to the front - let's see what happens then!

I've always liked this thought by John Locke that if you take the pressure off politicians they will instantly and inevitably start working against you. Human nature.

Of course, theorizing is easy. Reality is another story.

But we should never stop trying to get out of the cave.

[Michael Thornton]

That all seems very engaged to me..

And I would ask if that's a very bright right if I look at murder numbers in your country. We don't have a lot of murders here and guess what: more immigrants.


Money, Guns, and Knifes are not evil. It's people like you that start WAR over nothing that are the real evil.

Keep in mind that was the USA guns and blood that free your weak a$$ in WWII.

Any way this is NOT the thread for this subject.

He was a great actor.

Tek

P. S. Start a new thread if you want to spread further lies.

[Anthony Gratl]

Money, Guns, and Knifes are not evil. It's people like you that start WAR over nothing that are the real evil.

Keep in mind that was the USA guns and blood that free your weak a$$ in WWII.

Any way this is NOT the thread for this subject.

He was a great actor.

Tek

P. S. Start a new thread if you want to spread further lies.

Wow. Your post is hilarious. Starting wars over nothing? You should look at the actions of your last oh I dunno, twelve presidents to see who's got the lock on that title.
Have you actually read any history books on world war 2? Ever wonder why the U.S. stayed neutral until 1942? Know anything about the history of the Union Banking Corporation of New York? Or Thysen? Or Standard Oil? Or IBM? If you knew the history of the policies of the United States of America as it relates to ww2 you wouldn't be writing nonsense about saving weak asses. Nor it seems, do you know anything about the history of american action in world war 2, especially when it comes to landing on the european beaches to invade, not mop up after the heavy lifting was complete. Pacific operations are a different story, but Europe, you're picking the wrong fight Tek.

p.s. if you've actually read the thread, this is where it's taken us. It's called go with the flow at this point. Occasionally a reference to Heston shows up to keep up appearances. Thanks for your contribution to that effort.

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Thanks Evolve!

"When the finger points at the sky, the idiot looks at the finger"...

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Money, Guns, and Knifes are not evil. It's people like you that start WAR over nothing that are the real evil.

Keep in mind that was the USA guns and blood that free your weak a$$ in WWII.

Any way this is NOT the thread for this subject.

He was a great actor.

Tek

P. S. Start a new thread if you want to spread further lies.


Sorry, but I have to express my opinion on that.

Regardless of their political system, the Soviet Union and its peoples were the ones that paid the highest price in WW2.

And their contribution to the victory over Nazi Germany is the biggest, commies or not.

25 million people [official figures, unofficially I've heard something like 40 or even 50 million].

That is:

25 000 000 casualties.

And Stalingrad.

The US gave 250 000 and were comfortably protected by two oceans.

I'm sorry, but those are the facts.

The glorified D-Day in Normandy is actually a B-event in WW2 history.

It was all decided at the gates of Moscow and Stalingrad.

Show some respect to those who fought the toughest fight.

Again:

25 000 000

...

Weak a$$. WTF ?!

It's easy to watch the Nazi onslaught behind the big Ocean sea.

Try walking in our shoes.

And the way that the Nazis themselves rose, or should I say - were elevated to power is also very interesting, but I won't dig there... the sh*t is too deep.

[Yannick Hagman]

Money, Guns, and Knifes are not evil. It's people like you that start WAR over nothing that are the real evil.

Claimers like you are. Ever remember: Saddam develops weapons of mass destruction. Someone who lies like this would be removed from any politcal function by public here that's for sure.


Keep in mind that was the USA guns and blood that free your weak a$$ in WWII.

Yeah, Like Poland, France and other countries which boardered Germany. ;o)

The role of Switzerland during WW2 is actually worked up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_during_the_World_Wars
http://history-switzerland.geschichte-schweiz.ch/switzerland-second-world-war-ii.html

However, interesting is also the fact that the USA did only allow 1% jewish refugees of it's population. Where Switzerland granted asylum to 8% jews and 8% soldiers, which is a very big number for a surrounded country. Stuart Eizenstat, ex-undersecretary of state critisizes in his book "Imperfect Justice" the United States, for granting asyl to less refugees than small Switzerland, which was boardered by Germany (north), Italy (south), Austria (east) and France (west). France was occupied and also controled by Nazis during this time as you know.



P. S. Start a new thread if you want to spread further lies.

Read some homocide statistics before you claim and call me a liar. ;o)

[Mark B.]

The US gave 250 000 and were comfortably protected by two oceans.
...
It's easy to watch the Nazi onslaught behind the big Ocean sea.


You're right, it's easy to watch an onslaught from across a big ocean. It's easy to sit and watch and not get involved. Germany wasn't exactly a direct threat to the Americas, so for the U.S. to send millions of troops across an ocean was somewhat impressive. Did Russia lose more people than the U.S. in that war? Sure, but then Russia was Germany's next door neighbor and so of course they're going to get hit harder.

The U.S. army had nearly a million dead and half-a-million injured as a result of that war. Not exactly a small number, definitely not small enough for anyone here to be dishing out crap about the U.S. not playing a significant role in the war.

So if any of you want to bash the U.S., please keep your commentary set in the modern times where it belongs.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

You're right, it's easy to watch an onslaught from across a big ocean. It's easy to sit and watch and not get involved. Germany wasn't exactly a direct threat to the Americas, so for the U.S. to send millions of troops across an ocean was somewhat impressive. Did Russia lose more people than the U.S. in that war? Sure, but then Russia was Germany's next door neighbor and so of course they're going to get hit harder.

The U.S. army had nearly a million dead and half-a-million injured as a result of that war. Not exactly a small number, definitely not small enough for anyone here to be dishing out crap about the U.S. not playing a significant role in the war.

So if any of you want to bash the U.S., please keep your commentary set in the modern times where it belongs.


No bashing, just keeping things accurate. This was an answer to the "liberating weak a$$es" post.

The US played a significant role in WWII, but not a decisive role.

On D-Day a Million US-British troops landed in Normandy, and more millions landed on the next days. At the same time the total count of Nazis in France was about 300-500 000. What does that say?... They were all in Russia.

Just around the Stalingrad battle we're talking about 3-5 million troops involved, for each side that is.

Yes, the UK and US greatly helped the USSR with supplies, Tanks and more.

No, the USSR wouldn't have survived without their allies` help.

No, the UK-USA wouldn't have been able to handle Nazi Germany on their own [if Russia had been conquered].

Absurdly enough, we should probably be "grateful" to the Japanese for attacking Pearl Harbor early [and foolishly], cause otherwise the US would probably have stayed uninvolved for quite some time -> Russia would have been destroyed and we would all be screaming "Sieg Heil" now.

We're grateful, though, for the decisive role that the US played in winning the Cold War and ridding us of communism.

Thanks guys. :)

[Samuel Doyle]

Muroshi, do you ever get tired of people judging your country because you'll take money from any evil regime or person and keep it secret just so you can make a buck?[/QUOTE]

Brilliant!

[Yannick Hagman]

SJD

My problem is that the US did exactly the same and isn't even aware of it. ;o)

[jpp]

So the same gun owners here who claim they need guns to defend themselves against government oppression also take mortal offense when someone here, Muroshi, actually ventures to criticize American domestic or foreign policy. So you hate government, but you love everything government does. Odd.

Meanwhile, there's no power the current president doesn't claim for himself, including the right to ignore laws he doesn't like, bomb any country he doesn't like, and subject you, your mother and your child to "enhanced interrogation techniques" for as long as he pleases, without charges or access to the courts, and then "disappear" the body without telling anyone.

Has all this gotten you into the street with your guns? Not exactly.

So the question is, what WOULD the American government have to do to get you really mad?

But of course we know the answer to that. It would have to try to take your gun away. That, or maybe universal health care. Then the streets would run with rivers of blood.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Actually, I think Heston would have been happy with this thread, cause his views made us discuss important issues.

I think he'd have liked that.

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Charlton Heston is the Steven Seagal of the 50's...

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Seagal hasn't played Moses yet.

Neither Michelangelo. :)

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Only Steven Seagal never was against abortion...

(I don't think this issue was discussed in this thread yet... I knew something was missing...)

[Yannick Hagman]

Steven Seagal isn't against abortion? This surprises me. He usually plays rednecks. :o)

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Only Steven Seagal never was against abortion...

I like the incomprehension in this thread! :)

It's tuff for some... Before internet, we were bitching, but we couldn't do it directly and personnaly to the concerned people... Some might not even realise people were bitching about them before internet... What we don't know... Imagine all the discussions we would have never had!?

Worse! Imagine doing this by fax!!!

[Lewis-M Soucy]

NOW THAT'S NOT FAIR MUROSHI??? YOU EDITED YOUR POST!!! NOW MINE LOOKS IRRELEVANT!!!

Great! Now some will think I'm off topic!

[Yannick Hagman]

LOL :o)

[Eddie]

... illegal immigrants mostly just want a job to help their families back home.



same here. especially things like cleaning public toilets and other low pay staff nobody wants to do. these folks are way cleaner than most lawyers around here.. and of course they have absolutely no interest in crimes because it they would have to leave the country.

well, why don´t you ask the native americans wether or not the seventeenth century illegal immigration caused a rise in crime and murderrates?

but I am sure there were also indians around back then, who like muroshi was telling everybody that it didn´t mean anything, and that the weather was a mucher bigger issue.

[Yannick Hagman]

well, why don´t you ask the native americans wether or not the seventeenth century illegal immigration caused a rise in crime and murderrates?

Do we compare apples with pears now?

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Seagal never aborts mission. He takes it to the end!

[Yannick Hagman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/norfolk/content/images/2007/03/02/steven_seagal_450_01_450x300.jpg

[Lewis-M Soucy]

What a fat blob he's become... From Aïkido to Aïkissyu! :)

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Yeah, he's 100 % aikisyu now. :)

[Yannick Hagman]

I almost hear him singing.

Here's another b-movie star:
http://estb.msn.com/i/85/4B98F8E19CEE8A74F4E8E31A680BD.jpg

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Now here's the quintessential aikisyu dude.

[Yannick Hagman]

Okay, back to Charlton's questionable standpoints, now that he is pushing up the dasies. :o)


Answer the question directly: Am I correct that you say guns cause suicide, and if so, do you also say that sleeping pills cause suicide? Simple question. The reason why I pursue this is because this is the fundamental point that underlies the entire argument.

They both do. The difference is weapons primary use is to fire a projectile. The use of sleeping pills is medical. And you do need a prescription for them.

We see: Speaking of rifles it isn't abuse. It's intended purpose.


You see, Americans love freedom -- and when freedom has been surrendered in the past it has always been as a wrong solution to some other problem.

Having a gun at home seems more like a restraint to me than freedom.


Taking guns away from people is the wrong solution to the problem of violence. If the cause of violence is not addressed -- and according to what you say, you don't appear to be interested in the causes of violence or to be taking action to find and address those causes -- then the only way to keep people from acting out on those unresolved violent tendencies will be to completely enslave them. Trying to solve a problem without knowing the cause of the problem always ends in disaster.

Weapons are not the solution to this cause, but a big part of the problem. The pure availability of them creates much more danger than would exist without. Their purpose is to multiple force in the end. And they do.


Then there is also the issue of out-of-control governments. Most persons who advocate gun control have total faith in their government. Something like another national dictatorial tyrant could never arise, they argue, therefore there is no reason for the populace to maintain its ability to defend itself. Americans tend to disagree with that. Here in the US we're probably pretty close to immune to most threats of that nature.

It looks converse if we look at past events. The only defense from it would be political dispute which involves the general public itself and as long as people rather watch and trust populist fox news than reading some books and question what the governement decides these rifles are pretty worthless.


Again, you miss the point. The sole significance of this point is that making something illegal does not prevent people from getting it. Making guns illegal will ensure that only criminals have guns. Any suggestion that criminals won't have guns is wishful thinking that has no basis in history.

Didn't say that they don't. But does pointing another trigger at him enhance your surviving rate? Nope, now he has a very good reason to kill you. But like I said the seperation in good people and criminals, good and bad, white and black is very outdated and actually part of the NRA propaganda. It's more like: Oh damn, my wife has cheated me, but I got a rifle at home, lets kill this bastard. It's wiser not having a gun at home under circumstances like this. Everyone is a murderer somewhere.


It appears that the extent of your argument is that Europe has a lower violence rate and Europe has fewer guns, therefore guns cause violence.

I didn't say that. But they are tend to make a disaster out of comperatively few.


Also, once violence is addressed and resolved, guns will no longer be an issue.

Violence is human. We are animals. There is nothing much to solve around that, so we must prevent.


it is only going to leave honest men and women defenseless against it.


That's true. But well, arms allow them to proceed their violence in a more dangerous way for everyone else.
True. Wouldn't you want to be able to defend yourself against that?

Fire and fire till everything burns? In reality, this would be mostly dangerous, stupid and not very good for one's health.

[fightordie]

So the same gun owners here who claim they need guns to defend themselves against government oppression also take mortal offense when someone here, Muroshi, actually ventures to criticize American domestic or foreign policy. So you hate government, but you love everything government does. Odd.

Meanwhile, there's no power the current president doesn't claim for himself, including the right to ignore laws he doesn't like, bomb any country he doesn't like, and subject you, your mother and your child to "enhanced interrogation techniques" for as long as he pleases, without charges or access to the courts, and then "disappear" the body without telling anyone.

Has all this gotten you into the street with your guns? Not exactly.

So the question is, what WOULD the American government have to do to get you really mad?

But of course we know the answer to that. It would have to try to take your gun away. That, or maybe universal health care. Then the streets would run with rivers of blood.

Perfect. So true.

[Coco B]

We're grateful, though, for the decisive role that the US played in winning the Cold War and ridding us of communism.

Thanks guys. :)

What a lot of crap!

Thanking the US for that?!

Think!!

[Erik Bien]

And in other news, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still valiantly holding on in his fight to remain dead.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Unlike this thread.

*bada bing crash*!

[JosephArthur]

Sorry to hear of that when i did hear it.

[David M]

The RED! Doesn't anybody think about the RED!

There are nuts in this world.
They come in all shapes and sizes, as do their irrational beliefs.
But there is no nut quite like a gun nut.

I've heard every petty grievance, every perceived social inequality (real and imagined), every urban myth about alleged outrageous "reverse discrimination), lurid descriptions of every possible unconventional (but private) bedroom practice, even the tragic loss of Betamax in favor of VHS, in fact just about every totally irrelevant and certainly non-gun related scenario, dragged into various G.N.'s monologues on the imminent disaster facing mankind if their pyrotechnic Viagra were to prised from their dead fingers.

As far as I am concerned, the only thing that should disqualify you from owning a gun is actually WANTING to own one. The sooner we find out what part of human DNA is responsible for this obvious evolutionary oversight and devise a prenatal test for it the better.

[Guidofilippi]

I think it´s good to remind (north) Americans from time to time that 96% of the human beings live outside the US... and that there are other ways to think too...
Just a comment.
Guido, from (south) America.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

What a lot of crap!

Thanking the US for that?!

Think!!

... and Gorbatchev too. :sifone:

[Cristina S]

Aren't you forgetting Karol Woytila (John Paul II) too?

[Van Din]

Karol Wojty?a.
________
Arizona medical marijuana dispensary (http://arizona.dispensaries.org/)

[Emanuel A.]

A few years ago, Mikhail Gorbachev said during a conference in Lisbon [ LINK (http://www.gulbenkian.pt/index.php?langId=2) ] that after a meeting with John Paul II, he had left the encounter convinced that everything should change. I heard with my own hears. As well, several hundreds of people present there.

EDIT -- Moreover, I was trying to avoid to post it but I will, 'cause it actually was what I could also listen there from Gorbachev himself. He mentioned Fatima. It is quite odd that a former President of the most powerful communist country in the world had referred it. It happened though.

[Tom Lowe]

RIP to a true legend of the silver screen.

[Emanuel A.]

Take a look on this:

http://beatroot.blogspot.com/2008/04/gorbachev-signed-jp-ii-contract-killing.html

History and politics are weird territories indeed.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

He mentioned Fatima.

In what relation?


Aren't you forgetting Karol Woytila (John Paul II) too?

Yes.

Have no fear.

[Vince K]

Are you serious??

A thread about the death of an amazing actor has gotten political?

Strange.

[Coco B]

Are you serious??

A thread about the death of an amazing actor has gotten political?

Strange.

I'd say the thread celebrates the life of an amazing actor.

His talent. But also his vision and opinion about life.

[Zack Birlew]

Dudes, is there any reason why you dug through the boards to dig this up? This thread is from a year ago!

[Coco B]

Do you mind terribly?

You can easily ignore it. :)

[Coco B]

As far as I am concerned, the only thing that should disqualify you from owning a gun is actually WANTING to own one. The sooner we find out what part of human DNA is responsible for this obvious evolutionary oversight and devise a prenatal test for it the better.

:thumbsup:

The only thing is, it's not in the human DNA. (though I like the expression)

It's in the beliefs humans have about life.

[Sergio Perez]

Seems like Heston really did a great career move on being the President of the NRA. I believe that, was he merely an actor, this memorial thread would've been "dead" many pages ago...

Probably the same will happen, hopefully many decades from now, to the now Governor of California :) ...

[David M]

:thumbsup:

The only thing is, it's not in the human DNA. (though I like the expression)

.
You know this how?

[Coco B]

As far as I am concerned, the only thing that should disqualify you from owning a gun is actually WANTING to own one. The sooner we find out what part of human DNA is responsible for this obvious evolutionary oversight and devise a prenatal test for it the better.

:thumbsup:

Well, even if there are genes in human DNA, carrying the "wanting to own a gun" trait, but we have the beliefs of Gandi, the genetic influence won't be such important a factor.

[Andrew Kimery]

As far as I am concerned, the only thing that should disqualify you from owning a gun is actually WANTING to own one. The sooner we find out what part of human DNA is responsible for this obvious evolutionary oversight and devise a prenatal test for it the better.
I'd rather find the piece of DNA that makes one person want to do violence to another, but to each their own. :tongue:


-Andrew

[Gavin Greenwalt]

:thumbsup:

Well, even if there are genes in human DNA, carrying the "wanting to own a gun" trait, but we have the beliefs of Gandi, the genetic influence won't be such important a factor.

Except that most gun violence is done yourself.