Genlock /Sync, Dip Switch Setting Clockit

[christian99]

For a couple of hours I am trying to genlock two REDs with a Ambient Clockit. I don't need TC to be synced.
The genlock is working with the RED and the Clockit set on 29.97 fps. But as I am located in germany I would like to shoot in 25 fps, there is not genlock setting on the lockit which is working.
I read here in the forum, there have been some guys using a Clockit - could you shoot on 25fps? Which settings did you use?

[Joerg]

I’m having the same issue, but can’t get the Genlock to work at any frame rate. Though I’d prefer 23.98, I’d right now be happy to make it work at 29.97. My settings right now are 4K, 2:1, Redcode38. The Genlock units are Ambient ACL 202CT. No luck at all. Any help is appreciated.

[Joerg]

OK it’s working. I had to connect both cameras to a single Ambient unit using a BNC, T connection. Obviously that hardwires the two cameras, but since they are on a 3D rig it doesn’t matter. All frame rates are working. I hope this solution helps you too.
Best:
Joerg

[Brian F Kobylarz]

While I have not yet taken delivery of my body to personally test the RED's sync and TC functions, allow me to offer up the following info:

As with other HD cameras, the RED is looking for tri-level sync at the genlock connector. Tri-level sync is made up of a three-level sync pulse (zero volts Blank, -0.3 V pulse, +0.3 V pulse) followed by the image information.

Each camera or device should have its own lockit box!
While splitting the video output of a lockit box with a BNC T may seem to work, it is a procedure that is fraught with risk. Some of the signal strength is lost when you split the signal, then add in the loss that each connector point in the path introduces.
Now, factor in battery drain.
At some point, the signal strength will fall below the threshold that the camera is looking for. Even if it worked at the start of the shoot, at what point did which camera not detect what it needed to stay locked? When your starting point is a signal that has a reduced strength, that failure point will happen sooner.
Another note about adding a "T" - an intermittent connection can cause a hiccup in the signal that makes a frame unusable. The lower the number of connection points, the better.

The lockit boxes are designed to provide both tri-level sync and time code. A warning based on a hard lesson learned: I do know that if you feed multiple cameras time code from lockit boxes without attaching the tri-level sync, the cameras will drift away from each other. This is because you now have two different crystals - each clocking differently - one in the camera, one in the lockit box. When the difference reaches a full frame, the system will reclock and you will lose the ability to edit the footage. Ouch.
While I have never tried feeding multiple cameras sync without code from a lockit, I would suspect the potential exists for a similar problem.

If the time code being generated internally by RED continues to track from its own crystal when external sync is applied, the TC and sync would drift away from each other. If the RED time code generator automatically recognizes and locks to the sync source, then this point is moot. RED tech needs to answer this question.

At this point, the TC connector on the RED camera accepts TC in, but I believe the TC output is not yet active.
So each lockit box needs to be jam synced externally - not to the camera. In critical shoots with other cameras, I've been using Ambient's ACC501 controller to jam sync all the lockit boxes with good success.

Side note: the Sound Devices recorders (such as the 744T) use the same time code electronics as Ambient clockit hardware. Great match if you are building a system.

Looking forward to testing this on my own RED in a few weeks!!!

[Zakaree Sandberg]

good luck!
I just got totally EFFED on a shoot..
We were syncing 4 cameras with lockit boxes.. at first we could not genlock period.. then we found if we set up the boxes.. powered down.. and then powered up it would finally Lock (the lock would be there instead of the lock inside of a big red circle and dash through it)
So we thought we were locked up.
However we now come to find out that indeed we were NOT genlocked!

We got boned big time..


ps we jam synced externally with a master clock

[nugget]

We have an Ambient Clock-it and are having a hard time sending external TC to the red at all... Trying to Jam Sync the camera, the smart slate (denecke ts-3), and the Fostex PD-6... The camera won't take the TC (23.976). Any ideas?

Thanks...

[Stuart English]

Sounds like a good situation to dig into.. What Builds are you guys running?

You can P.M me or we can discuss here. I'm not seeing what you are describing, but there are some boundary conditions (such as Open Gate enabled) that can affect the working of Genlock.

I also run Ambient ACL 202CT as my source for tri-level sync and timecode.

[nugget]

We're on build 15... I'm not sure the version number but I can get that if it's helpful.
Thanks...

[chuck colburn]

OK it’s working. I had to connect both cameras to a single Ambient unit using a BNC, T connection. Obviously that hardwires the two cameras, but since they are on a 3D rig it doesn’t matter. All frame rates are working. I hope this solution helps you too.
Best:
Joerg


I was on some 3D shoots (65mm) and was wondering what rig your using.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Hey Stuart,
all four of my cameras were on the latest build

[albert rudnicki]

We have an Ambient Clock-it and are having a hard time sending external TC to the red at all... Trying to Jam Sync the camera, the smart slate (denecke ts-3), and the Fostex PD-6... The camera won't take the TC (23.976). Any ideas?

Thanks...

Seams that we have the same issues, Red will not take the TC from a denecke.
I am on build 15 (firmware) running at 4K 2:1 23.98, Denecke is also at 23.98

Thanks

[Stuart English]

Seams that we have the same issues, Red will not take the TC from a denecke. I am on build 15 (firmware) running at 4K 2:1 23.98, Denecke is also at 23.98


Then we have a mystery. We have both Dencke and Ambinet products and both Jam Sync and Genlock fine at 23.98 and 25.000 - so what is different?

[Oliver Schietinger]

Our Denecke SBT jam syncd the Red at 23.98 but NOT at 29.97. We got substantial drift after a few minutes.

Any luck with 29.97 on your end?

[Mike Paul]

In my experience, there's generally three main reasons (other than a total equipment failure) why a device won't accept a TC Jam.

1) Bad or improperly wired jam cable
2) Framerate incompatibility
3) TC output source voltage is too low

[Karl Roeder]

We are currently having success with this setup using:
Sound Devices 744T @ 23.98
Two Audio Clockit tri-level sync boxes
Red build 15.2.2.5 - Project at Redcode 28 / 4k 2:1 @ 23.98

The 744T generates the master TC.
We sync both Ambient boxes to this, (must turn on Ambient boxes after they are wired for sync to take) wait for happy lights.
One Ambient box then stays with the 744T, the other is wired to the camera using the multi-pin TC in, and video/word to camera genlock. Important!
Ensure jamsync is enabled.

We routinely call the numbers aloud to check for bad cables (after lunch, changing locations...). There appears to be a half second delay in displaying the TC on the RED LCD, but we attribute that to the common delay the LCD exhibits with other functions. In post production, everything sycs just fine.

- Karl Roeder #0911 Ottawa- Canada

[Anders Holck]

I have this problem as well with the ambience box
Camera is set to 25 fps, TC jam works (although the camera only jams when recording, not while in pause. Very confusing)
Tri level sync doesn't work. Tried both 1080p25 and 1080i50 settings on the ambient box. The camera does seem to detect the trilevel sync as the error message changes when I disconnect the box.

[Steve Tammi]

good luck!
I just got totally EFFED on a shoot..
We were syncing 4 cameras with lockit boxes.. at first we could not genlock period.. then we found if we set up the boxes.. powered down.. and then powered up it would finally Lock (the lock would be there instead of the lock inside of a big red circle and dash through it)
So we thought we were locked up.
However we now come to find out that indeed we were NOT genlocked!

We got boned big time..


ps we jam synced externally with a master clock

Details on the 4 camera shoot...

Cameras: 17, 19, 357, 1015
Build: 15.2.2.5 on each camera
Project: 4K, 16:9, 29.97, Redcode 28
Shutter: 1/60
Mode: Syncro (Tried other modes but made no difference)
Genlock: Checked
Timecode: Jamsync Checked
1 x Ambient ACC501 controller for setting Lockit boxes
4 x Ambient ACL 202CT Lockit boxes


Slate set to A, B, C, D, Force Reel, Red-Drive formatted after project settings, no Varispeed, no audio, fresh batteries in all Ambient devices before power up. Lemo for timecode, Video / Word BNC to Genlock on Red Camera via ET breakout box.

1) Fire up Ambient ACC501 controller
2) Jamsync all 4 Lockit boxes to ACC501 one at a time
3) Attached lemo and BNC to Red Camera
4) Powered up Red camera
5) Lock icon showed successful Genlock
6) Roll some footage to achieve Timecode Jamsync
7) Chain icon showed successful Jamsync

Several times during recording 4-8 minute takes one of the cameras would throw up a "Genlock Failed" Error and stop recording causing us to start the entire sequence over again.

Testing the footage in Red Cine on site and then later in post showed the timecode was not in sync and each camera had different timecode even though the Lockit boxes were in sync. With the Ambient ACC501 controller you can reconnect to the Lockit boxes and verify the timecode match or mismatch.

If you need more details please let me know.

Best,

Steve

[Andrew M.]

I had success to jamsinc and genloc two cameras.

I was using Ambient ClockIt ACL 202CT

Camera setup - B15 24p 2:1 4K

Ambient setup:

ON OFF OFF ON OFF OFF OFF OFF
RED SW RIGHT RIGHT

It mean:
SW1 SW2 - ON OFF = 24fps
SW3 OFF = no drop frame
SW4 ON = SMPTE 274
SW5 OFF = progressive scan
SW6 OFF = no double rate
SW7 OFF = no external TC reinsertion

Red switches:
Upper RIGHT = Trilevel
Upper RIGHT = Trilevel/Worldclock

Worldclock (Video World) BNC output connected to genlock on the camera.
Red light blinks every second.

On the camera little "chain sign" on the top of the LCD screen is on after pressing record for the first time. Small "lock" sign (on the left of the chain sign) is on after 5 seconds or so from connecting the Video World BNC cable to the camera genlock.

Camera will jamsinc only after and each time the record is pressed, that it makes sense since we want to have camera to jamsinc at the beginning of every take.

If I am doing something wrong please let me know since I didn't test it extensively. Just total of 8 minutes, two 4 minutes CFs with multiple clips.

[Stuart English]

I had success to jamsinc and genloc two cameras.

I was using Ambient ClockIt ACL 202CT

Camera setup - B15 24p 2:1 4K

Ambient setup:

ON OFF OFF ON OFF OFF OFF OFF
RED SW RIGHT RIGHT

It mean:
SW1 SW2 - ON OFF = 24fps
SW3 OFF = no drop frame
SW4 ON = SMPTE 274
SW5 OFF = progressive scan
SW6 OFF = no double rate
SW7 OFF = no external TC reinsertion

Red switches:
Upper RIGHT = Trilevel
Upper RIGHT = Trilevel/Worldclock

Worldclock (Video World) BNC output connected to genlock on the camera.
Red light blinks every second.

On the camera little "chain sign" on the top of the LCD screen is on after pressing record for the first time. Small "lock" sign (on the left of the chain sign) is on after 5 seconds or so from connecting the Video World BNC cable to the camera genlock.

Camera will jamsinc only after and each time the record is pressed, that it makes sense since we want to have camera to jamsinc at the beginning of every take.

If I am doing something wrong please let me know since I didn't test it extensively. Just total of 8 minutes, two 4 minutes CFs with multiple clips.

Yup, that is exactly what you should be doing !

[Andrew M.]

TC jam works (although the camera only jams when recording, not while in pause. Very confusing).


Thank you Stuart!

Anders, I agree that lack of confirmation that camera is seeing the jamsinc right away after you connect it to the camera port, is bit confusing for the first time users.

However I hope that camera does jamsinc each and every time you press the record button.

I thik it does that since otherwise why the chain indicator is poping up only after you start recording.

I think what is happening, camera is checking for presence of the jamsinc only and every time you start recording.

If signal is there then it jamsinc to it and shows the icon.

Monitoring for presence of jamsinc every 10 seconds or so would be nice.

Once detected chain sign should go yellow.
Once it is freshly jamsinced should go green.
After 10 minutes or so of no jamsinc refresh (by pressing the record button) the chain sign should go yellow again.

[cinepost35]

The monitoring of Jamsync presence would be nice. The color idea sounds like a possible solution.

[Andrew M.]

More shooting yesterday and all looks stable. In post I checked the sync of frames and all is sinced up to the single frame on all shots. We had to sync almost pixel to pixel and important thing for such jobs is to go to the shutter menu and set the phase to 0 deg.
Also the World clock output can drive up to 4 inputs. We did drive two, this way we were making sure that phase is identical on both cameras.
It may happen that when doing jamsinc for the first time after you power on both cameras when both cameras are already in genloc the jamsinc will sinc one camera one frame less or more than the other one.

Another words there will be one frame difference on the TC display reading for the same frame content (picture) between these two cameras.
It mean that you jamsinc reading came just at the split of the frame and you flipped to the second frame for one of the cameras.
Once this will happen it will stay like this for the whole day on all clips till you power off the cameras.

[markblade]

In my experience, there's generally three main reasons (other than a total equipment failure) why a device won't accept a TC Jam.

1) Bad or improperly wired jam cable
2) Framerate incompatibility
3) TC output source voltage is too low

So can you feed 29.97 into the camera and still shoot 23.98? Or is that the framerate incompatibility you refer to above. I am shooting a band with Red and recording on a D88 8 track recorder which will only do 29.97/30fps. I thought I would rent 2 Clockit boxes and use the TC from the Audio Recorder to send to the camera.

Any ideas?

Mark

[Steve Tammi]

Are you saying the camera doesn't genlock at 29.97 16:9 4K?


Yup, that is exactly what you should be doing !