PDA

View Full Version : Sci Fi short on CF Dragon



Luke Neumann
12-27-2013, 07:09 PM
Big thanks for Nathan Garofalos for renting out his Dragon to us. Shooting on Nikkor Ai-s primes with a 1.5x anamorphic adapter. Will try to post an R3D in the next couple of days! For now I have posted a snapshot. Feel free to post test grades. I, for one, would love to see what talented folks can do with the image.


https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1496558_583853071685465_1830252764_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1492528_583859861684786_1266290075_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1492559_584985268238912_1014383959_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1540400_584985051572267_1794203793_o.jpg


Download R3D (http://www.mediafire.com/download/2wntfpn2c622yy9/A014_C021_1227U7.0000526F.R3D)

Download R3D (http://www.mediafire.com/download/lg74nqcwr85tuwu/A014_C028_1227YQ.0000580F.R3D)

Download R3D (http://www.mediafire.com/download/zqnts6u4gbr2q5u/A014_C013_1227XW.0000407F.R3D)

Ken Wilson
12-27-2013, 07:49 PM
That adapter looks nice, we use the Panasonic adapter mostly with the Tokina 11-16mm and looks fantastic except in 3D you need to be extremely precise in the setup. We use Nikon, Canon and Zeiss lenses also, wish we could have a really nice comparison with the Leica's S-C to see the price/quality ratio.

Timur Civan
12-27-2013, 08:00 PM
That adapter looks nice, we use the Panasonic adapter mostly with the Tokina 11-16mm and looks fantastic except in 3D you need to be extremely precise in the setup. We use Nikon, Canon and Zeiss lenses also, wish we could have a really nice comparison with the Leica's S-C to see the price/quality ratio.

Oooooooooo...... Good idea.....

Luke Neumann
12-27-2013, 08:03 PM
That adapter looks nice, we use the Panasonic adapter mostly with the Tokina 11-16mm and looks fantastic except in 3D you need to be extremely precise in the setup. We use Nikon, Canon and Zeiss lenses also, wish we could have a really nice comparison with the Leica's S-C to see the price/quality ratio.

Oh wow. I wonder how much that set up would vignette on the Dragon in 6K? I have to go to a 50mm lens (or 35 and do some cropping) with this adapter.

Adam Johnson
12-27-2013, 08:47 PM
Looking good Luke!

Can't ever go wrong with Old Nikon glass on a Digital Cinema camera :)

Luke Neumann
12-27-2013, 08:48 PM
Looking good Luke!

Can't ever go wrong with Old Nikon glass on a Digital Cinema camera :)

Thanks Adam! Totally agree, I love the image they get when paired with an anamorphic adapter as well.

Kemalettin Sert
12-27-2013, 08:56 PM
wtf is wrong with this footage?
http://i.imgur.com/Lc0EMvt.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4pG4C8C.jpg
12800 ISO.Exported as tiff and i crushed the blacks on PS CC.looks better than my 5D mk3.What im doing wrong?

Luke Neumann
12-27-2013, 08:58 PM
wtf is wrong with this footage?

12800 ISO.Exported as tiff and i crushed the blacks on PS CC.looks better than my 5D mk3.What im doing wrong?

Huh, maybe an update to Redcine-X? ISO shouldn't be that high and WB looks like it needs to be fixed. Weird!

Kemalettin Sert
12-27-2013, 09:00 PM
you dont get it :D i tweaked to 12800 ISO and expected see damn noise! looks clean as hell
This footage is answer to people asking Alexa vs Dragon test :)

Ken Wilson
12-27-2013, 09:02 PM
Oh wow. I wonder how much that set up would vignette on the Dragon in 6K? I have to go to a 50mm lens (or 35 and do some cropping) with this adapter.

It vignettes but in a small monitor I can't see clear the whole picture. I wish I had access to a movie theater setup to sneak there when is not in service and see how good the footage can look at the big screen, then I'll know the REAL pic. I live in Boca Raton area, Florida and have no such connections yet.

A 4k Sony 3D projector is 25k about now, that might be an option to go in the future.

An inventive cinematographer or DP (any cinematographer should be by definition I think) can get around the vignetting easily.

Quintet with Paul Newman is one old movie / good example.

Luke Neumann
12-27-2013, 09:06 PM
you dont get it :D i tweaked to 12800 ISO and expected see damn noise! looks clean as hell
This footage is answer to people asking Alexa vs Dragon test :)

OK! I gotcha. Sorry, a bit slow today. Yes, the improvements are amazing.

Nathaniel Haban
12-27-2013, 09:13 PM
What anamorphic adapter did pair with the Nikkors? Shots look fantastic, BTW.

Luke Neumann
12-27-2013, 09:16 PM
What anamorphic adapter did pair with the Nikkors? Shots look fantastic, BTW.

Thank you sir. I rented an Iscorama 1.5x from Vid-Atlantic (http://www.vid-atlantic.com/). It's really nice! As far as adapters go it's my favorite one.

Derek Morrison
12-27-2013, 09:31 PM
Hey Luke, Looking good man. Heres two grades from me. Can't wait to see more.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7385/11597487015_669d9efceb_c.jpg

This is a great shot from Neumann Films posted on reduser.net. This is a 1.5x Anamorphic Shot from the brand new RED Epic Dragon. This is a great example to show off its dynamic range, keeping the fiery flame unclipped and keeping some amazing detail in the mid tones and shadows. This new sensor is amazing.


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3766/11597488735_0cd59f999a_c.jpg
Here is another image, reverse to the first one. This one I kept it dark because he is entering the cavern. I wish the flame was a bit bigger to light up his face, but I did not shoot this and wind is a definite factor. Even though there is so much detail in the RAW version I started with. It is not beneficial in telling a story by keeping all that detail in there. Giving it a darker feel adds a great mood to this scene which without knowing the story and seeing the elements within the shot and actions of the main actor, it made sense to keep it dark and menacing almost.

Luke Neumann
12-27-2013, 09:34 PM
Oh wow, beautiful work!

Nick Morrison
12-27-2013, 09:57 PM
Luke this is some of my favorite footage posted all year, and some of my favorite "peeks" at Dragon so far. Love how Dragon is pairing with older glass! Can't wait for you to post some more video!!!

Great job. Can't wait to see more.

Keep up the good work.

Luke Neumann
12-27-2013, 10:04 PM
Luke this is some of my favorite footage posted all year, and some of my favorite "peeks" at Dragon so far. Love how Dragon is pairing with older glass! Can't wait for you to post some more video!!!

Great job. Can't wait to see more.

Keep up the good work.

Wow, thanks Nick! Going to shoot some truly crazy stuff tomorrow and Sunday! Will post loads more ASAP.

Derek Morrison
12-27-2013, 10:12 PM
Will post loads more ASAP.

Yay! Fun Fun!

Nick Morrison
12-28-2013, 12:12 AM
Wow, thanks Nick! Going to shoot some truly crazy stuff tomorrow and Sunday! Will post loads more ASAP.

Sounds great. Will be standing by!

luigivaltulini
12-28-2013, 01:45 AM
wowo Luke,
Dragon looks fantastic and a lot of freedom on the images.

Wait another still :)

Karim_Nassar
12-28-2013, 02:59 AM
12800 ISO.Exported as tiff and i crushed the blacks on PS CC.looks better than my 5D mk3.What im doing wrong?

This amount of shadow information and noise level makes me curious about the best exposure strategy on the Dragon.

Would be nice to do this simple test on a sunny day:

- expose to the left / boost shadows in post
- expose for fullest histogram / recover shadows and highlights
- expose to the right / recover highlight information

And see which has the cleanest/widest dr image.
Wonder if the highlight protection and minimal noise in post shadow recovery from the expose to the left strategy would be beneficial

very nice images Luke

Rob Anderson
12-28-2013, 04:58 AM
This amount of shadow information and noise level makes me curious about the best exposure strategy on the Dragon.

Would be nice to do this simple test on a sunny day:

- expose to the left / boost shadows in post
- expose for fullest histogram / recover shadows and highlights
- expose to the right / recover highlight information

And see which has the cleanest/widest dr image.
Wonder if the highlight protection and minimal noise in post shadow recovery from the expose to the left strategy would be beneficial

very nice images Luke
Cleanest and best response for post is still the tried and true, 'keep it between the goal posts'. Once you do that, Dragon's sensor gives you all of the latitude you could want for driving your grade.

Jason Kraynek
12-28-2013, 08:15 AM
ohhhh a grading challenge huh. im in xx

Nick Morrison
12-28-2013, 09:52 AM
This amount of shadow information and noise level makes me curious about the best exposure strategy on the Dragon.

Would be nice to do this simple test on a sunny day:

- expose to the left / boost shadows in post
- expose for fullest histogram / recover shadows and highlights
- expose to the right / recover highlight information

And see which has the cleanest/widest dr image.
Wonder if the highlight protection and minimal noise in post shadow recovery from the expose to the left strategy would be beneficial

very nice images Luke

For whatever it's worth, Toia has been shooting at 250 iso for cleanest image possible. And as a way of using less ND. Dragon absorbs so much light. However he also says that 2000 iso is comparable to 800 on MX (which blows my mind).

From some of the Offhollywood tests, even higher isos in the 3000 and up look very usable too...which is pretty crazy.

But in terms of approach, I agree...there isn't a consensus yet. But it does appear that some of the MX strategies may not be as necessary anymore. To quote Toia again, he's just checking his histograms to make sure nothing clips...and that's about it (from what I can tell).

Curious myself how best to shoot Dragon...

Les Hillis
12-28-2013, 09:53 PM
Some basic adjustments in REDCINE-X.


Unadjusted -


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/41/r16r.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/15r16rj)


Adjusted -


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/844/03d1.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ng03d1j)


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/829/0nrs.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/n10nrsj)





Unadjusted -


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/31/4bh0.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/0v4bh0j)


Adjusted -


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/823/yhk5.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/mvyhk5j)


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/27/4ebw.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/0r4ebwj)


Thanks for the images Luke.

Karim_Nassar
12-29-2013, 12:38 AM
But in terms of approach, I agree...there isn't a consensus yet. But it does appear that some of the MX strategies may not be as necessary anymore. To quote Toia again, he's just checking his histograms to make sure nothing clips...and that's about it (from what I can tell).


it does make sense, as the dynamic range increases and shadow noises diminishes, the less you have to resort to exposure strategies to obtain the best image.
just get the fullest histogram without clipping like you said
thanks for the feedback

Mike P.
12-29-2013, 09:51 AM
How is the fitting adjusted to 1.3x in the .r3d embedded metadata? Is that a Dragon thing, or could that always be done?

Luke Neumann
12-29-2013, 10:34 AM
That's a Dragon thing. You can set it to either 1.3x or 2x. I think it's mostly for monitoring purposes. The stuff I shot came out at 6144x3160.

Patrick Tresch
12-29-2013, 11:02 AM
You can't juge noise in a flat (gray) image. You need deep darks to see the noise floor and to juge how the camera behave at 12000 Asa

Pat

Mike P.
12-29-2013, 12:17 PM
You can't juge noise in a flat (gray) image. You need deep darks to see the noise floor and to juge how the camera behave at 12000 Asa

Pat

This is 100% correct. Moreover, you can boost properly exposed ISO800 MX footage to 12800 and it still looks acceptable.

That said, Gunliek's candle test shows some pretty promising results. Still not the best I've seen, but with noise reduction and 6k, you can probably get quite a bit more (unfortunately it'd take forever to render).

Mark L. Pederson
12-29-2013, 12:49 PM
For whatever it's worth, Toia has been shooting at 250 iso for cleanest image possible. And as a way of using less ND. Dragon absorbs so much light. However he also says that 2000 iso is comparable to 800 on MX (which blows my mind).

From some of the Offhollywood tests, even higher isos in the 3000 and up look very usable too...which is pretty crazy.

But in terms of approach, I agree...there isn't a consensus yet. But it does appear that some of the MX strategies may not be as necessary anymore. To quote Toia again, he's just checking his histograms to make sure nothing clips...and that's about it (from what I can tell).

Curious myself how best to shoot Dragon...

Per my comments on exposing in the OFFHOLLYWOOD DRAGON R3D thread - I really feel like the histogram is too limited on the Dragon to use as a primary exposure tool. For example, on the MX you could often just "expose to right" - crank the iris open and then stop down until you did not show any clipping on the stop light indicators. Then ND if you want a more shallow depth of field.

But on Dragon .... if you open the iris and then stop down until the stop lights indicate that there is no clipping - you end up 5 stops over an incident reading taken at subject!

So ... being between the goal posts means you can adjust in post and you are "okay" - but now the goal posts are so much wider .... you might want to re-think your approach to get the very best from the Dragon in various situations.

Here's an R3D to show just that - 5 stops over incident reading rated at 800 - histogram as far to right as possible without clipping. So ... this shot is 100% recoverable - but obviously not optimal way to expose for 90% of most situations.
https://copy.com/S7WyZ3laYLmb

Daniel Reed
12-29-2013, 12:49 PM
No, that is as clean as heaven!
...you even cranked the color temp to max


you dont get it :D i tweaked to 12800 ISO and expected see damn noise! looks clean as hell
This footage is answer to people asking Alexa vs Dragon test :)

Daniel Reed
12-29-2013, 12:52 PM
Where's the "like" button?


.... if you open the iris and then stop down until the stop lights indicate that there is no clipping - you end up 5 stops over an incident reading taken at subject!

So ... being between the goal posts means you can adjust in post and you are "okay" - but now the goal posts are so much wider .... you might want to re-think your approach to get the very best from the Dragon in various situations.

Here's an R3D to show just that - 5 stops over incident reading rated at 800 - histogram as far to right as possible without clipping. So ... this shot is 100% recoverable - but obviously not optimal way to expose for 90% of most situations.
https://copy.com/S7WyZ3laYLmb

Mark L. Pederson
12-29-2013, 12:56 PM
Everyone who buys a Dragon should, in the event they don't already own one - buy one of these - http://www.sekonic.com/products/l-758cine/overview.aspx

luigivaltulini
12-29-2013, 01:03 PM
Everyone who buys a Dragon should, in the event they don't already own one - buy one of these - http://www.sekonic.com/products/l-758cine/overview.aspx

Mark,
you have tried to do a test with curiosity to the table SEKONIC?

same this: http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=8375868975844575706

Mark L. Pederson
12-29-2013, 01:18 PM
Mark,
you have tried to do a test with curiosity to the table SEKONIC?

same this: http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=8375868975844575706


I haven't made a Dragon profile for the 758 yet ... perhaps I need to get on that and post one :)

luigivaltulini
12-29-2013, 01:20 PM
I haven't made a Dragon profile for the 758 yet ... perhaps I need to get on that and post one :)

IT WOULD BE CUTE :)

Thanks Mark.

KETCH ROSSi
12-29-2013, 01:52 PM
Luke... Great Shots!!

Mark... I have stopped using the 758 Cine Digital Master since the R1 days, and never looked back on Epic MX, I still fill the same within a guard limit in respect to what you said, yet I'll have to give it a second tought and do some shooting with it again and see were my fillings will be after that.

Mark L. Pederson
12-29-2013, 02:05 PM
Mark... I have stopped using the 758 Cine Digital Master since the R1 days, and never looked back on Epic MX, I still fill the same within a guard limit in respect to what you said, yet I'll have to give it a second tought and do some shooting with it again and see were my fillings will be after that.

I'm not saying one MUST use a light meter - I'm just really want to drive home the point that using the histogram on the Dragon IMO is WAY, WAY too limiting as a primary exposure tool.

I've been begging for the ability to keep the LCD in RAW mode (and use False Color) while having the SDI sending out RC3/RG3 - but so far this is not a firmware option.

John Marchant
12-29-2013, 02:19 PM
I've got to agree, the histogram is kinda difficult with Dragon... weirdly because its possible to produce a workable image in most cases in such a variety of ways.

Do share your profile for the Sekonic if you can, I'd be interested to compare on our setup :)

Luke Neumann
12-30-2013, 10:02 AM
Adding a few more R3Ds today! Will also try to get a 4-5 second shot up as well.

Ergin Ozturk
12-30-2013, 10:28 AM
I haven't made a Dragon profile for the 758 yet ... perhaps I need to get on that and post one :)

http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=8375868975844575706

in Ryan Walters blog there is a nice Overexpose Test between Epic and Alexa. According to test there is 2.3 fstop difference between Alexa and Epic in highlights.
If Dragon has 1.5 fstop more highlighs then Epic then does it mean Alexa has still better (+1 stop) highlight?
i think i am missing something?

Martin Stevens
12-30-2013, 01:42 PM
http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=8375868975844575706

in Ryan Walters blog there is a nice Overexpose Test between Epic and Alexa. According to test there is 2.3 fstop difference between Alexa and Epic in highlights.
If Dragon has 1.5 fstop more highlighs then Epic then does it mean Alexa has still better (+1 stop) highlight?
i think i am missing something?

It's possible that you are not missing something.

Will Keir
12-30-2013, 05:29 PM
Love the snapshots. They bring together the location choice / art direction well.

Will Keir
12-30-2013, 05:31 PM
The grades look a bit heavy handed on my 30" Apple Cinema Display. Especially the blacks.
Hey Luke, Looking good man. Heres two grades from me. Can't wait to see more.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7385/11597487015_669d9efceb_c.jpg

This is a great shot from Neumann Films posted on reduser.net. This is a 1.5x Anamorphic Shot from the brand new RED Epic Dragon. This is a great example to show off its dynamic range, keeping the fiery flame unclipped and keeping some amazing detail in the mid tones and shadows. This new sensor is amazing.


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3766/11597488735_0cd59f999a_c.jpg
Here is another image, reverse to the first one. This one I kept it dark because he is entering the cavern. I wish the flame was a bit bigger to light up his face, but I did not shoot this and wind is a definite factor. Even though there is so much detail in the RAW version I started with. It is not beneficial in telling a story by keeping all that detail in there. Giving it a darker feel adds a great mood to this scene which without knowing the story and seeing the elements within the shot and actions of the main actor, it made sense to keep it dark and menacing almost.

Nick Morrison
12-30-2013, 06:44 PM
http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=8375868975844575706

in Ryan Walters blog there is a nice Overexpose Test between Epic and Alexa. According to test there is 2.3 fstop difference between Alexa and Epic in highlights.
If Dragon has 1.5 fstop more highlighs then Epic then does it mean Alexa has still better (+1 stop) highlight?
i think i am missing something?

I think we need extra tests to see. Because apparantly Dragon also improved TWO stops in the blacks (and it's already better than Alexa in blacks....remember exposure goes both ways).

People are seeing 16+ stops on Dragon, that is no joke. And highlights appear very, very difficult to clip. I'm looking forward to head to head comparisons.

Also...don't forget Dragon is a brand new sensor. Alexa is 2 years old. Generally, with sensors, newer is better. I'm expecting Dragon to be the new king of the block in 2014 and possibly 2015, and then of course someone else will step in with "the next best thing" and the process will repeat itself again.

What will be constant it appears...is RED's willingness to let us upgrade.

If the current camera is Dragon...I wonder what the next one will be called?

Ergin Ozturk
12-31-2013, 06:14 AM
I think we need extra tests to see. Because apparantly Dragon also improved TWO stops in the blacks (and it's already better than Alexa in blacks....remember exposure goes both ways).

People are seeing 16+ stops on Dragon, that is no joke. And highlights appear very, very difficult to clip. I'm looking forward to head to head comparisons.

Also...don't forget Dragon is a brand new sensor. Alexa is 2 years old. Generally, with sensors, newer is better. I'm expecting Dragon to be the new king of the block in 2014 and possibly 2015, and then of course someone else will step in with "the next best thing" and the process will repeat itself again.

What will be constant it appears...is RED's willingness to let us upgrade.

If the current camera is Dragon...I wonder what the next one will be called?

Thank you for the explanation . I hope some comparision test with Alexa can clarify strengths of both camera.