Nikon VS Zeiss

[PaulClements]

Just wondered whether anyone had any experience with Zeiss, most importantly perhaps being their 50mm and 85mm Planar 1.4 T. How would you compare them to their Nikon equivilents?

Cheers

Paul

[PaulClements]

If nothing else they look very pretty and have matching colour/color's to Red :)

Linky (http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/Contents-Frame/858dbbbbd2fb78a6c125711800592377)

And I thought this made an interesting side note on DPpreview:

"Like the ZEISS lenses for motion picture, ZF lenses feature unusually high mechanical quality, fixed focal length, very precise manual focussing, reliability, and exceptional durability. Special attention is paid to guarantee absolute color matching throughout the whole range of lenses resulting in state-of-the-art image quality."

[Ken Corben]

I have used Zeiss lenses to shoot MOW's and features as well as Canon and Cooke cine lenses.

I have used Nikon lenses to shoot production stills for deliverables.

Being old school, I've never substituted one for the other. Until now, they were considered completely separate entities.

I would guess it depends on acquisition mode and desired final output?

My guess is that if shooting 4K redcode raw and then projecting 2K on a theatrical screen one will see a difference in glass.

If shooting other modes for 1080 broadcast given additional compression (cable/satellite) and viewers HDTV sets perhaps not?

I hope to be proven wrong - but only testing will tell:nuke:

[Dominic Jones]

Sharkguy - you realise he's talking about the Zeiss SLR lenses, not their Cine glass, right??!

From what I've heard (I haven't used the ZF Zeiss's, which I presume are the lenses you're talking about - there are T* Planar lenses in a variety of different formats, including several 135 lenses, MF and Cine) the Zeiss lenses are a little better than their Nikkor counterparts, but not by enough to justify the price differential - although I guess a large amount of that comes down to your budget and therefore how fussy you can afford to be...

EDIT: Just re-read your post, and you abviously are talking about the ZF series, so the above definitely holds true!

[PaulClements]

I was mostly wondering about whether they breath alot.

[Dominic Jones]

Ah - no info on that, sorry mate!

Although I suspect that - being designed for SLR use - they will breath more than Zeiss Cine glass. Compared to the relevant Nikon's though, I have no idea...

[Ken Corben]

My bad - I missed the "ZF" on the second post.

[chuck colburn]

Besides the quality control that Zeiss demands from Cosina (for the versions made in Japan) and the superior mechanical construction, many of the Zeiss 24x36 format lens focus barrels turn in the same direction as their cine lenses. This would eliminate the need to modify your follow focus unit. I believe some off the Arri follow focus units are reversable thus solving that problem.

[Dominic Jones]

Ah, that's an interesting advantage, cheers Chuck! I wonder if the ZF lenses also rotate in that direction?

[chuck colburn]

Ah, that's an interesting advantage, cheers Chuck! I wonder if the ZF lenses also rotate in that direction?

Hi Dominic,

I think the ZF lenses rotate the opposite of cine lenses, as most still camera format lenses do. The Zeiss lenses I see most often that do rotate the other way are in Contax mount.
Here's a photo of one, albeit it an extreme example. This lens by the way is considered by some as the finest 200 ever made. Combine it with Zeiss Mutar lll 1.4x and 2x extenders and you get a 200mm f2, 280mm f2.8 and a 400mm f4 lens set. Some other focal lengths are, 18mm, 21mm, which along with the Zuiko 20 are the best in focal length, 25, 28, 35, 50 and a 85 in f1.4 and f1.2! There are other longer lenses also.
All the Contax mount slr lenses can be adapted to Canon mount.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Contax-Carl-Zeiss-APOSONNAR-APO-SONNAR-200mm-2-F2-Lens_W0QQitemZ180098226159QQcategoryZ3340QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem

Chuck

[Evin Grant]

The Zeiss ZF are no better optically than their Nikkor equivilents. There is some advantage to being able to say "Zeiss" on your equipment list. But they are no better for the money. I think most here will be very surprised how well Nikkors and still lenses in general perform, especially recent designed for digital lenses like the 17-35mm. Remember Corpse bride was shot at 8MP using all Nikkors, and finished in 2K I believe. Other than the ergonomics of cinema shooting (breathing, gears, focus draw) I fully suspect the still lenses to compete with current cine lenses and trounce older ones.

[PaulClements]

A bold and interesting statement Evin, I very much hope you are correct :)

[Sanjin Jukic]

I did Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/50 ZF video test here on Reduser.net forum months ago.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=287

[Sanjin Jukic]

The Zeiss ZF are no better optically than their Nikkor equivilents. There is some advantage to being able to say "Zeiss" on your equipment list. But they are no better for the money. I think most here will be very surprised how well Nikkors and still lenses in general, especially recent designed for digital lenses like the 17-35mm. Remember Corpse bride was shot at 8MP using all Nikkors, and finished in 2K I believe. Other than the ergonomics of cinema shooting (breathing, gears, focus draw) I fully suspect the still lenses to compete with current cine lenses and trounce older ones.

So much orthodoxy in a lens choice is not good at all. I would not say that Nikkors are better than Zeiss and vice versa. And every lens is different. I would suggest if somebody have more money to add some Zeiss still lenses on their list too, just to have another option and the future RED ONE tests will tell us what is a good lens option for every single shooting situation we want. I have collected still lenses from different brands and all are able to get in Nikon F mount. Have a look on the list:

+ Attractive set of Nikkor F, Leica VISO M, Schneider-Kreuznach M42 mount, Haselblad/Zeiss mount and Zeiss ZF 35mm Lenses:

++Primes:
** Nikkor-N A 24 mm f/1:2.8
** Nikkor AI-S 28 mm f/1:2.8
** Nikkor AI 35 mm f/1:1.4
** Zeiss Planar T* 50 mm ZF f/1:1.4
** Nikkor AF 50 mm f/1:1.8 D
** Leica Elmar 65 mm f/1:3.5 Leica-VISO to Nikon F adapter
** Hasselblad - Carl Zeiss Planar T* 80mm f/1:2.8 to Nikon F adapter
** Nikkor AF 85 mm f/1:1.8 D
** Leica Summicron 90 mm f/1:2.0 Leica-VISO to Nikon F adapter
** Nikkor AI-S 105 mm f/1:2.5
** Nikkor-Q A 135 mm f/1:2.8
** Schneider-Kreuznach Tele-Xenar 135 mm f/1:3.5 M42 to Nikon F adapter
** Zeiss Sonnar Olympia 180 mm f/1:2.8 Nikon F

++Zooms:
** Nikkor AF 17-35 mm f/1:2.8 D ED
** Nikkor AF 35-80 mm f/1:4.0-5.6 D
** Nikkor AF 70-210 mm f/1:4.0-5.6
** Soligor Nikon/F 100mm-300mm f/1:5.0

[PaulClements]

How much weight do people put on using the same make/model for different SLR glass? If one had a set of nikons with a couple of Zeiss in there would it mean a noticable difference between the visuals achieved?

[PaulClements]

I did Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/50 ZF video test here on Reduser.net forum months ago.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=287

And my apologies for not looking in more depth, I do actually remember seeing this a while ago, so thanks. Shame the video link isn't available any more :(

Any chance of mocking up a transition like those posted by Evin, Sanjin? If you would like to email me over 3 images I will happily make a flash or animated gif file for you. Also did you ever do any of the other Zeiss lenses?

Cheers

Paul

[Sanjin Jukic]

And my apologies for not looking in more depth, I do actually remember seeing this a while ago, so thanks. Shame the video link isn't available any more :(

Any chance of mocking up a transition like those posted by Evin, Sanjin? If you would like to email me over 3 images I will happily make a flash or animated gif file for you. Also did you ever do any of the other Zeiss lenses?

Cheers

Paul

Paul,

for all of you once more I will open my home ftp sever for download
Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/50 ZF video test

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/two_bears.jpg

Here it is the link

ftp://84.112.86.213/Library/FTPServer/FTPRoot/Movies/two_bears1_ZF50mm.mov

This lens test is done with Sony FX1E HDV camcorder + Redrock Micro M2 35mm lens adapter + Redrock Micro Follow Focus +
Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/50 mm ZF + + Vocas Matte Box.
The video compression codec is Photo-JPEG 75%.
The file size is 49.7 MB, duration 33.15 sec.
Keep in mind that using Redrock Micro M2 35mm lens adapter you already at start loosing a couple of f stops.
With the RED ONE will be much better.
Server is open for the next 48 hours.

Paul thanks for the offer about Flash or animated gif. I am web designer too and will leave video file as it is. For example Evin Grant is doing still photography and his tests need that kind of "animation". Logically mine not because it was already shot as moving images. So you would get a bit impression about the lens performance til RED ONE and the new tests come in a near future.

Mac OS X users for the best FTP download use Firefox 2.0.

Also tomorrow I will add two more lenses in my collection for use with the RED ONE:

Nikkor A 50mm f/1.4

and

Carl Zeiss Vario Sonnar 10-100mm T2 that is S16 zoom lens to get opportunity for 2K variable frame rates using REDCODE compression with max 60fps shooting. Also for slow motion effects of nature or human body shots in sports etc. Just to get more comfortable for documentary run&gun shooting style.

[PaulClements]

Thanks alot Sanjin, very kind of you, that's a pretty darn good connection for a home server. No chance of doing that here in the UK where I'm based, still can only get 256kb upload... ouch.

I only suggested the flash since it would be such a small file that it could be posted permanently, but you're entirely correct.

In your opinion do you prefer the Zeiss to the Nikkor. I prefer the look of the build quality of the zeiss but I've read that it suffers in cold temperatures with stiffening so perhaps looks are deceiving.

[Evin Grant]

I didn't say the Nikkor was better, just on par with the Zeiss ZF. I have'nt tested them yet but from the research I've seen there is no Increase in resolution (especially wide open) for the extra $.
I do think they will offer very nice imaging, although traditionally Zeiss lenses are cooler (Color not hipness). Now if I can only find way to make a Van Dutch brand lens line.
:poster_stupid:

[Stephen Williams]

The Zeiss ZF are no better optically than their Nikkor equivilents. There is some advantage to being able to say "Zeiss" on your equipment list. But they are no better for the money. I think most here will be very surprised how well Nikkors and still lenses in general perform, especially recent designed for digital lenses like the 17-35mm. Remember Corpse bride was shot at 8MP using all Nikkors, and finished in 2K I believe. Other than the ergonomics of cinema shooting (breathing, gears, focus draw) I fully suspect the still lenses to compete with current cine lenses and trounce older ones.

Evin,

Out of interest are the Zeiss lenses being compared on film or on a digital camera?

I saw a ZF on a lens projector, the resoloution was amazing, well in excess of what can be captured, less distortion & flair.

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks alot Sanjin, very kind of you, that's a pretty darn good connection for a home server. No chance of doing that here in the UK where I'm based, still can only get 256kb upload... ouch.

I only suggested the flash since it would be such a small file that it could be posted permanently, but you're entirely correct.

In your opinion do you prefer the Zeiss to the Nikkor. I prefer the look of the build quality of the zeiss but I've read that it suffers in cold temperatures with stiffening so perhaps looks are deceiving.


Home server - an old Power Mac PPC G3 upgraded with Sonnet card to G4 and also an old version of Mac OS X Server 10.3.9. Connection cable network.
Sometimes to live in Austria is pleasure.

"do you prefer the Zeiss to the Nikkor?" - I prefer to get both if it is possible.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I didn't say the Nikkor was better, just on par with the Zeiss ZF. I have'nt tested them yet but from the research I've seen there is no Increase in resolution (especially wide open) for the extra $.
I do think they will offer very nice imaging, although traditionally Zeiss lenses are cooler (Color not hipness). Now if I can only find way to make a Van Dutch brand lens line.
:poster_stupid:

Maybe Zeiss are cooler and Nikkors are warmer. The RED ONE will tell us the truth very soon. And it is all about still lenses. To compare with stories about cine lenses you could say Zeiss are sharper than Cookes. Now I could quote Michael Ballhaus, ASC what he said on The Departed interview (it is some kind of advertising but...):

"Q:There are always discussions about the inherent look of lenses.
How would you characterize the Master Primes?

Michael Ballhaus: There are colleagues of mine that prefer Cooke lenses because they think they are softer. I must say that if I want something soft I can easily do it with filters. I don't need the lens to be soft. I want a lens that can do it all. If I want an unfiltered, sharp and precise look, than Zeiss lenses are the best. And the Master Primes have even more resolution than other lenses, they are even sharper and have more resolution. If I want a softer look, I use a filter. There are a number of excellent filters available that I like to use, for instance the Classic filters from Schneider are outstanding. That is why I prefer lenses that give me all the options."

Link
http://www.arri.de/news/newsletter/articles/0906/ballhaus.html

And Michael Ballhaus shot on Kodak 5218 etc. We will shoot digital on RED 4K.

Also my like "Van Dutch brand" lens line will get today Nikkor A 50mm f1.4 and S16 lens Carl Zeiss Vario Sonnar 10-100 T2. Both used of course. And I am happy with my mix lens option. Now I think to add some Schneider Classic filters, some NDs and Magenta 3 for sure.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Reort from today march 12, 2007.

I did not get Nikkor A 50mm f/1.4 because it was not in a good condition.
I chanded my mind and took Leica Telyt 20cm f/1:4,5 Visoflex,

have a look below

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/leica--telyt-f20cm.jpg

also I have got Arriflex/Carl Zeiss Vario Sonnar T* 10-100mm f/2,8 that is S16 allround zoom for run&gun 2K REDCODE shooting with the RED ONE.

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/zeiss-10-100-s16.jpg

[Sanjin Jukic]

Arriflex "B" mount to PL adapter arrived today from the Visual Products Inc.(link) (http://visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail01.asp?productID=701&Cat=11) Now it is attached on the lens Arriflex/Carl Zeiss Vario Sonnar T* 10-100mm f/2,8. Have a look at the picture below. But no any chance to test it before the RED ONE ships sometimes early Fall 2007.

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/arriflex-10-100.jpg

[chuck colburn]

Hey Sanjin,

Nice looking machine work on that adapter. You can test your lens before you get your camera. Take it to a motion picture equipment rental house and they can pop it on their auto-collimator and thru the lens projector, which should tell you at least (more actually) as much as a film test would.

Chuck

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Chuck,

there is Arri Austria rental here in Vienna. I will try it for sure.

[Sanjin Jukic]

One more Zeiss zoom. Soon I will get for a good price one 35mm Zeiss cine zoom lens. More later. Stay tuned.