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Daniel Pearson
01-23-2014, 07:10 PM
Hi all Dragon users, I have a test request if anybody is in the mood? I'm a Scarlet owner considering my future upgrade paths. Sure I'd love frame rates, but do I entirely need them? Same goes for 6K.

What I'd like to ask is for an Epic Dragon 5 vs 6K test, so a 5K and a 6K tiff of the same subject with reasonably similar framing - preferably a landscape and a face, close up. To allow us Scarlet users to compare the 5K and 6K coming out of the Dragon, to see if we need the 6K.

I realise there is a FOV 'advantage' with 6K Dragon, but what I'm more interested in is the image 5K and 6K resolve, both as full res tiffs but then allowing us to downsample to 1080p/2K, so basically seeing if there is a noticeable difference in a human face shot 5K and 6K but with the same framing (ie: moving the camera forward a bit for the 6K shot).

Thanks in advance anybody who has the time.

Robert Ruffo New
01-24-2014, 06:57 AM
Scarlet doesn't do 5K video, does it? Scarlet Dragon not actually announced yet...

TD Wood
01-24-2014, 08:45 AM
Scarlet Dragon will, so I guess what Daniel is asking is to have some Epic Dragon 5K footage in order for Scarlet Dragon "upgraders" to get an idea of what the Scarlet-D will be like. I wouldn't mind either :)

In any case, I'm sure the Scarlet Dragon will pretty much stick to the specs already specified at red.com: http://www.red.com/store/products/scarlet-dragon-upgrade.

Michael Tiemann
01-24-2014, 11:32 AM
If Scarlet Dragon follows the template of Scarlet:EPIC, then it's going to be a 6K sensor forced to a 5K crop. In that case, the way to evaluate it would be to take a 5K crop out of the 6K image. That would be sufficient to do an "absolute" test--i.e., is the necessary quality there for the intended purpose (be it web distribution, theatrical release, 8K UHD, etc). If you want to do a "relative" test, i.e., how does the 5K crop from a Dragon compare with what Scarlet shoots in the same scene, you need to find somebody with lots of time on their hands...and both a Scarlet and a Dragon.

Laco Zamba
01-24-2014, 01:37 PM
Scarlet Dragon will be ultimate Epic-X killer.

Robert Ruffo New
01-24-2014, 03:52 PM
Scarlet Dragon will be ultimate Epic-X killer.

No, not really, Epic X has slow-mo, which si important in some types of work. It has lower compression, which is VERY important if you do heavy grading. It also has a wider field of view. If you grade well, you can make MX look like Dragon under many circumstances, but you can't really fake slomo (post optical flow slow-down has artifacts and all kinds of issues) you can't fake a wider field of view, and compression noise is a nasty beast to contend with.

Daniel Pearson
01-24-2014, 04:10 PM
Scarlet doesn't do 5K video, does it? Scarlet Dragon not actually announced yet...

As posted by TD Wood, the Scarlet Dragon has been announced: http://www.red.com/store/products/scarlet-dragon-upgrade

Daniel Pearson
01-24-2014, 04:13 PM
If Scarlet Dragon follows the template of Scarlet:EPIC, then it's going to be a 6K sensor forced to a 5K crop. In that case, the way to evaluate it would be to take a 5K crop out of the 6K image. That would be sufficient to do an "absolute" test--i.e., is the necessary quality there for the intended purpose (be it web distribution, theatrical release, 8K UHD, etc). If you want to do a "relative" test, i.e., how does the 5K crop from a Dragon compare with what Scarlet shoots in the same scene, you need to find somebody with lots of time on their hands...and both a Scarlet and a Dragon.

I realise a 5K crop out of the 6K image would show the 5K quality, but I'm more interested in a 5K shot and a 6K shot being framed the same, and then presented in 5K and 6K as well as allowing to downsample each image to 2K. I'm just curious to see if 6K of the sensor vs 5K makes a whole lot of difference when the framing is the same. I reaise this would be time consuming, but hey worth a shot :)

Tommaso Alvisi
01-24-2014, 04:13 PM
No, not really, Epic X has slow-mo, which si important in some types of work. It has lower compression, which is VERY important if you do heavy grading. It also has a wider field of view. If you grade well, you can make MX look like Dragon under many circumstances, but you can't really fake slomo (post optical flow slow-down has artifacts and all kinds of issues) you can't fake a wider field of view, and compression noise is a nasty beast to contend with.

Robert,
very good points indeed!!!
Thanks for sharing with us!

Daniel Pearson
01-24-2014, 04:17 PM
It has lower compression, which is VERY important if you do heavy grading... and compression noise is a nasty beast to contend with.

I guess we don't know the compression ratios that will be available on the Scarlet Dragon yet, but hasn't it been said that higher compression on the Epic Dragon is much more useable than high compression on MX Epic?

Can't argue with the slow mo thing, that is always going to be Scarlet's main weakness - but the proposes specs for the Scarlet Dragon are a lot better than the MX Dragon.


1-48 fps 5K FF at 5:1 compression
Max fps (2.4:1):
1-60 fps 5K
1-75 fps 4K
1-100 fps 3K
1-150 fps 2K

Laco Zamba
01-24-2014, 04:32 PM
Robert, compare it:

Scarlet Dragon:
DYNAMIC RANGE: 16.5+ stops
MAX IMAGE AREA: 5120 (h) x 2700 (v)
LENS COVERAGE: 25.6mm (h) x 13.5mm (v) x 28.9 mm (d)
1-75 fps 4K

Epic-X:
DYNAMIC RANGE: 13.5 stops, up to 18 stops with HDRx™
MAX IMAGE AREA: 5120 (h) x 2700 (v)
LENS COVERAGE: 27.7mm (h) x 14.6mm (v) x 31.4 mm (d)
1-150 fps 4K

Differences are minimal.
And:
1. Many Dragon users report excelent results with higher compression ratios about 13:1
2. With 16.5+ stops of DR is HDRx is obsolete
3. 75fps in 4K is fantastic jump from current Scarlet max 30fps