Trouble Renting?

[Jesse Johnson]

I'm going to be placing my order for a RED in a couple of months but before I do, there's something I have to ask. For those of you who already own this camera and are renting it out... how often do you rent it out a month? Have any of you had trouble? I know this camera is in high demand... but if I'm buying it mainly to rent it out... am I going to have any trouble making money with it?

I know that my success with it ultimately depends on how well I market my service, but I would like to hear from those who are already doing this. Thanks in advance for any advice/information.

[donatello b]

"but if I'm buying it mainly to rent it out... am I going to have any trouble making money with it?"

high demand depends on your area which will come down to a supply & demand equation .... today , i don't believe there is a high demand in SF , Portland OR, Seattle for Red .. EXCEPT for maybe the EVF .. i think there are about 10 Reds in SF area and 1 EVF that i know of AND that number will grow within next 30 days ...

are you currently "in the business " ?
do you have contacts in the business?
are you planning to do this locally ?
how many rental houses that have Reds or Red owners are in the area ?
what is the least amount of $$ you could make a year off the camera and not fill the $$ pinch ?
are you expecting it to pay for itself within X time?
are there other reds in your area in case you need a back up?

[Russell Fogle]

The rental markets seem to vary quite a bit by region. Some markets are very hot and competitive such as LA (probably too competitive), and then rental houses that I've spoken to down here in Miami get several inquires but very few takers. There are some private owners/renters renting in this area.

If your main game plan is to recoup a good chunk of your RED investment through rentals then I would seriously suggest investigating your local market such as rental houses & RED users groups and enquire if they are getting many rentals, inquires, etc... Get a solid feel for the demand in your area. As time goes on and the system and it's workflow become more main stream & accepted, the number of people looking to rent will obviously grow. But then again so will the amount of people who will be owning the system and looking to rent it out.

Who knows Jim could be presenting the magic bullet next week at NAB that will streamline the RED workflow and make using the system by far the most logical choice for a lot of different types of productions.

Good luck.

[Steve Sherrick]

Good breakdown Donatello. Those are very important questions to ask.

Another way to look at things is to ask could this camera add production value to the work you currently do, perhaps opening up more opportunities? Then as a side venture you rent the camera out to other productions to maximize the camera's revenue potential. In other words, the more ways you can put the camera to work, the better off you'll be in the long run. Just a thought.

[Russell Fogle]

Damn it Donatello... You beat me to much of the same conclusion by 6 minutes! Funny... Once I posted yours popped up before me.

Cheers!

[Mike Prevette]

DON'T BUY THIS CAMERA OR ANY CAMERA IF YOUR BUSINESS PLAN IS RENTING IT OUT! Unless you really want to be a rental house it's just bad business. It takes a hell of a lot more than a RED to do well in that market.

If your a DP that wants another hammer in his toolbox then great, but don't expect to be competing in the rental market.

[Jeff Deveraux]

I agree with Mike.
My take on the whole rental thing is not very favorable. If you wish to only recoup your $$$ and end up with essentially a free camera, I think you won't have much fun. Everything in life is headache in one way or another. It's only when you're doing what you really want to do when the headaches are negligible. I'm sure you've heard the adage, "Find a job doing what you love and you'll never work a day in your life". If you are attracted to the rental market, I'd start with accessories. Preferably the expensive ones that low budget RED owners won't have, like the RED EVF.
I don't know if this is true across the board, but I know of one rental house that bought a HVX200 and only rented it out twice. However, they rented P2 cards a lot. My guess is the market became so saturated no one needed to rent the camera, but P2 cards were at a premium and in short supply.

[Brian Reisdorf]

Buy high quality glass + Find other area Red owners who are already renting = Profit.

If you're planning on income from renting just the Red, remember their will very soon be 4000+ out there.

[RedDog444]

I agree. As powerful a camera as it is, it may not be suited for you unless you are a rental house. It all depends on your market.

I'm in L.A. and the market here sucks. There are guys here that are letting the camera go for less than the rate of an F900 even though it is much more powerful. And did I mention that they are throwing in a tech as well. There are too many newbies that have watered down the craft and are just doing anything to get the job. I keep reading posts here that eventually things will settle down and the real artists will begin to appear. So far, however, it's hard to bargain when you have a producer on the phone who tells you that so-and-so quoted him a cheaper price.

I'm just blowing steam here, guys. I just lost a job yesterday to a guy that came in at HALF my rate (and I had already lowered my rate). My rates, by the way, are typical for an operator and full HD outfit here in L.A.

Want to make money renting? Get some HVX200's.

[Clint Johnson]

There are already far more Reds running around than there is glass to put in front of them or EVFs to look into- and pretty much any production that is going with Red is going to have a list with a set of Zeiss or Cooke primes and an EVF on it - along with an ARRI mattebox and follow focus, an O'Connor 25/75 head... and that expensive list goes on.

The next question they ask will be if you have quick access to a backup Red body in case anything goes wrong with this one?

These are the basics that the production company will be looking for and if you don't have them or can't get your hands on them when needed and at a reasonable price then you are going to have a LOT of trouble getting the camera booked.

I'll second MrDorf on the lenses as being the money.

If you get yourself a set of Cooke S4/i or Zeiss Ultra Primes you'll have so many Red friends looking to rent them that you'll have to fight them off with a stick. For $85,000 you can get a nice set of six Ultra Primes within the month while just over the $100,000 mark can get you a similar range of Cooke S4/i lenses in two to four months. Of course if you get one of every focal length it is closer to $500,000 for the whole Cooke line up.

There is no way to tell how long it will take for the Red prime set to get to market and Red will have to make a lot of them before they can start to put a dent in the void that is building in the glass supply.

If you want to shoot something you get a Red, if you want to rent something then grab some glass.

[gdv]

Damn it Donatello... You beat me to much of the same conclusion by 6 minutes! Funny... Once I posted yours popped up before me.

Cheers!

Is this a competition?

[Jeff Coatney]

No, just a desire to avoid redundancy.

[John DeBoer]

The next question they ask will be if you have quick access to a backup Red body in case anything goes wrong with this one?


Questions that will be asked from production:

How many engineers on your staff?

How many Cameras?

How many drivers to run any gear out to us?

How many prep bays for our crews to work in?



I really think single RED owners who expect to rent their cameras out to high end productions beyond late summer when 4000+ cameras are out there are in for a big shock.

The camera body is the lowest cost in the equation.....glass is second last, a rental space is next, and the most expensive is the large staff (highly qualified staff) it requires to run a rental house.

[Obin Olson]

How can you make money when high volume rental houses are
renting a whole red setup incl. Glass for 650/ day 3 day week!!!!!

[Visceral_IvaN]

I'm going to be placing my order for a RED in a couple of months but before I do, there's something I have to ask. For those of you who already own this camera and are renting it out... how often do you rent it out a month? Have any of you had trouble? I know this camera is in high demand... but if I'm buying it mainly to rent it out... am I going to have any trouble making money with it?

I know that my success with it ultimately depends on how well I market my service, but I would like to hear from those who are already doing this. Thanks in advance for any advice/information.

I would suggest to use your red for something other than solely rentals... there are many ways to make money in this industry. Just network, get yourself out there, and do your best.

[CK Olsen]

IMHO... If I were wanting to rent, I'd invest in real glass too... There are already plenty of bodies out there to be had, but good glass is geting hard to find. And the cool thing about glass is it can go in and out of house quickly, as you don't need to worry so much about maintaining firmware upgrades, memory, or cables. Like Mama used to say, "Buy the RED, but make money from the glass. And stay away from them hookers on East Avenue."

[Jesse Johnson]

Thank you all so much for the information you provided! It was very well received and understood. A LOT of very good points made and questions asked.

I think all of you are right. If I get this camera it shouldn't be just for renting. If I'm going to buy this I need to use it to produce as much of my own content as possible.

Thanks again for all the help!

[Dave Weber]

If your a DP that wants another hammer in his toolbox then great

Um ..... Hammer .... Toolbox ..... Wouldn't he be a Grip then? :biggrin: :bleh:

[JohnLands]

We just wrapped a 25 million dollar feature on the red. here is a list of equipment we used on feature.

6 x Reds,
2 x EVF's
6 x Arri 19mm Base Plate Sliding Dove Tail & Full Cinema Support
6 x Hot-Swap Battery Supply for RED Cameras (non-stop shooting)
1 x Set of Arri Master Primes: 14, 18, 21, 35, 50, 75 & 100mm T1.3 (best lenses I have ever seen)
1 x Arri Ultra Prime 180mm T2.0
1 x Arri Prime 100mm T2.0
1 x Arri Prime 135mm T2.0
1 x Cooke 18-100 Mark II T3.0
1 x Cooke 25-250 Mark II T4.0
2 x Steadicams
1 x Super Techno Crane
2 x ArriHead 2 Geared Head
9 x Panasonic 8.4" HD LCD Monitors with Waveform
7 x Panasonic 17" HD LCD Monitors with Waveform
1 x Panasonic 26" HD LCD Monitor with waveform
5 x Preston Full Fiz Wireless Follow Focus Systems
1 x Viewfactor Prototype Remote VTR Start and Stop
6 x MB20 4 x5 Mattebox
2 x MB14 6x6 Mattebox
2 x LMB5 4x5 Clamp-on Mattebox
6 x FF5 Follow Focus
4 x Cine Tapes
6 x Ambient Clockit Boxes
1 x HyperDrive (This is the world's Fastest Memory Card Backup system)

The major cost was in the support that went with the camera not the camera its self, The reason we got the job is because of the support we offered with the camera. From the prep we setup workflow with apple and red to meet the directors needs. During production every day we answered questions of producers and bond companys, Each night we logged and transfered footage while trouble shooting problems we saw on set. Anyone can own a camera and rent it out and thats why so many people have a bad taste in there mouth for red. If you dont come with the support and the team to get them through prep to post then they should shoot 35mm. A director recently told me the devil you know is better then the devil you dont know. In the end if you buy a camera for rental be responsible with the technology and give the support it needs. Also dont plan on making any money on the RED camera body, you will make all your money on everything the ACs want to put on it and the post solutions you can offer. Min investment for a red package is 200 thousand if you want to support a studio feature film. Hope this helps.

John lands

[Clint Johnson]

How can you make money when high volume rental houses are
renting a whole red setup incl. Glass for 650/ day 3 day week!!!!!

Where abouts is that? There are probably a few people in Vancouver who would take that - just to put everything but the lenses back on the truck.

I could see a few of the big guys getting nervous and fighting a rear guard action, taking a loss to keep the Red out of the hands of a long time client with the hope that they stay in the fold.

That is a roughly the market price for a set of Ultra Primes and a good deal for a Cooke S4 set.

Now all bets are off next year when Red #4000 is out the door and Red is selling a set of primes at 15mm, 18mm, 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm and 135mm for less than $30,000.

Also, by then a lot of these low balling productions will have been burnt by the individual renter not being able to back up and support what they are renting. Good intentions aside, as JDB said above, the camera is the least expensive part of the equation and the producers will learn that saving a few hundred dollars a day on rentals can cost them... hell, it can cost the shoot if the horse throws a shoe at the worst possible moment. You really don't want to be the nail that lost the kingdom... once the insurance company unleashes the lawyers nobody wins but the lawyers.

Win lose or draw, the lawyers always win.

[Jonas Nyström]

DON'T BUY THIS CAMERA OR ANY CAMERA IF YOUR BUSINESS PLAN IS RENTING IT OUT! Unless you really want to be a rental house it's just bad business. It takes a hell of a lot more than a RED to do well in that market.

If your a DP that wants another hammer in his toolbox then great, but don't expect to be competing in the rental market.

Couldn't be better said, Mike! If you don't own a bunch HS Primes.

[John DeBoer]

Min investment for a red package is 200 thousand if you want to support a studio feature film. Hope this helps.


Just did the quick math on your package.......without the steadicam and technocrane, you are at 600,000+......

Plus paying all the staff etc....

Some people are in for a suprise....
BTW....I LOVE the master primes as well......

[Russ McDonald]

We just wrapped a 25 million dollar feature on the red. here is a list of equipment we used on feature.

6 x Reds,
2 x EVF's
6 x Arri 19mm Base Plate Sliding Dove Tail & Full Cinema Support
6 x Hot-Swap Battery Supply for RED Cameras (non-stop shooting)
1 x Set of Arri Master Primes: 14, 18, 21, 35, 50, 75 & 100mm T1.3 (best lenses I have ever seen)
1 x Arri Ultra Prime 180mm T2.0
1 x Arri Prime 100mm T2.0
1 x Arri Prime 135mm T2.0
1 x Cooke 18-100 Mark II T3.0
1 x Cooke 25-250 Mark II T4.0
2 x Steadicams
1 x Super Techno Crane
2 x ArriHead 2 Geared Head
9 x Panasonic 8.4" HD LCD Monitors with Waveform
7 x Panasonic 17" HD LCD Monitors with Waveform
1 x Panasonic 26" HD LCD Monitor with waveform
5 x Preston Full Fiz Wireless Follow Focus Systems
1 x Viewfactor Prototype Remote VTR Start and Stop
6 x MB20 4 x5 Mattebox
2 x MB14 6x6 Mattebox
2 x LMB5 4x5 Clamp-on Mattebox
6 x FF5 Follow Focus
4 x Cine Tapes
6 x Ambient Clockit Boxes
1 x HyperDrive (This is the world's Fastest Memory Card Backup system)

The major cost was in the support that went with the camera not the camera its self, The reason we got the job is because of the support we offered with the camera. From the prep we setup workflow with apple and red to meet the directors needs. During production every day we answered questions of producers and bond companys, Each night we logged and transfered footage while trouble shooting problems we saw on set. Anyone can own a camera and rent it out and thats why so many people have a bad taste in there mouth for red. If you dont come with the support and the team to get them through prep to post then they should shoot 35mm. A director recently told me the devil you know is better then the devil you dont know. In the end if you buy a camera for rental be responsible with the technology and give the support it needs. Also dont plan on making any money on the RED camera body, you will make all your money on everything the ACs want to put on it and the post solutions you can offer. Min investment for a red package is 200 thousand if you want to support a studio feature film. Hope this helps.

John lands

This is the point I was making when the whole rental discussion started months ago. Skyline you also need to think in terms of your Knowledge base, all you owners who have your Cameras (lucky Bastards) are the most knowledgeable techs & artists in this burgeoning market. That is your true value. You power now is your ability to make other peoples projects go from the page to the stage as it were.

Start looking for projects you are a Producers who have a camera package, and a post production solution. So take short money and ownership, invest in your community. It will pay dividends, especially when your outside of LA....

[Steve Sherrick]

...Start looking for projects you are a Producers who have a camera package, and a post production solution. So take short money and ownership, invest in your community. It will pay dividends, especially when your outside of LA....

That is one of the keys right there. Offer full solutions that give you an advantage. Having a RED doesn't make you a Rental house. But having a RED package, with good on-set management tools, and the ability to facilitate the footage through the post process, that starts to add value.

[falcon418]

Is this a competition?


How can you make money when high volume rental houses are
renting a whole red setup incl. Glass for 650/ day 3 day week!!!!!

WHERE can I find that rate?

[Russ McDonald]

That is one of the keys right there. Offer full solutions that give you an advantage. Having a RED doesn't make you a Rental house. But having a RED package, with good on-set management tools, and the ability to facilitate the footage through the post process, that starts to add value.

Steve is brilliant here recognizing my unquestioned insight when it comes to all things, in what I like to call the Business of Show.:)

Fallow the link, if you haven't seen this yet. LOOK AT IT NOW (http://red.cachefly.net/video/red-mythbust.m4v)

This is the key to your advantage, better, faster, and leaner... I am privy to lot of shit here in LA, the deluge of projects turning to 4k is soon approaching. TV is going to be insane.... All you lucky bastards who unlike me were very very smart, and have your gear are going to see a return. I'll be Hiring you, the problem is I opened my big mouth, now I can't screw ya.... My soul sucking black producer heart, foiled again by my tree hugging, commune loving Directors Heart. It always gets in the way....DAMN IT:whistling:

[Harry Clark]

Lots of great replies, fellas...
The rental business is a tough market, especially for the second- or third-tier players. DPs and ACs who own packages are value-added, so there can be a little fat in the rental budget and the producer can still see value. Big rental houses can move big volumes of gear, and can make a go of it on a slimmer margin. Small players or people who are not already established craftspeople may have a tougher go, especially as a glut of cameras appear.
Cheers,
Harry

[sparkhope]

If you want to shoot something you get a Red, if you want to rent something then grab some glass.

Agreed!

Already some folks are renting the cam out for around 2k/week. As the supply climbs that number will drop. Pure & simple.

If you want to be a rental house you're gonna need several REDs to provide a high sla to your customers in case of failure and such. At some point the camera will be a loss leader to move high end accessories and lenses where the rental markup tends to be nearly double that of the camera.

[Mark B.]

Eventually, Red owners will pay off their investment. After that, they won't be as desperate to rent out their camera. So the total number of cameras available for rent will diminish, demand will remain unchanged, and subsequently the rental income might pick up at that point, probably a year or two from now. :blink:

[dino g]

In the end, it is like any other business, it comes down to customer service and taking ownership. do right by your client and you should get repeat business, repeat business is what builds businesses. even if the director or the dp get a camera, they still need a back up body and someone on set to watch their back and cover their A$$.

i agree that demand has not even started. there are 84 weekly prime time 1 hours slots on the top 4 networks, not to mention cable and the other so called over the air networks. not to mention the rest of the world, and feature, music videos, shorts, industrials, student...RED's are shooting not even 1% of this stuff here in LA, when we get to 10% thats when the floodgates will open, but also by then keslow, birns, camtec, tch, otto, clairmont, panavision,....will all have 10 or 20 or 30 bodies..so it is going to be fun to watch and participate. if you have 18k sitting around, it is a better bet than the stock market, or bonds and for damn sure real estate right now. all those are loosing money...if you rent your body for 500 a week, it will be paid for in 36 weeks, which is a record for a camera.

[Noah Kadner]

Yep- if you are an owner-operator type and not an existing rental house it's going to be really hard to recoup your investment unless you plan on spending a *ton* of dough on a massively tricked out package, especially in a competitive market. Why would a producer spend say $1500 a day on a bare bones Red with the Red Zooms(which all told will still set you back up to $30K) when they can get a fully decked out Red with nice Cooke or ARRI Primes say for $600 more along with 24/7 support? And how about all of the infrastructure and overhead that go along with running a true rental service- prep, insurance, shipping, sales, etc.

Not to say you can't work with a local rental house to add your camera to their rental pool or try anything you like. But I think most folks looking at this camera as an entree into the rental world in the truly competitive markets(which increase each day as more REDs proliferate) will be in for a shock. Buy it to use it and enjoy but don't expect it to become an instant rental house.

Noah