Is Red Too Exclusive?

[Brent J. Craig]

Has anyone else found that Red is a little too "members only" for its own good?

You have probably heard that a fellow Reduser and I are about to embark on a trip around the world with two Reds. 35 shoot days in 7 countries - shooting for a group that usually shoots on IMAX. We have an end-to-end 4K workflow and plan to deliver for 4K projection. This is an opportunity to showcase Red as a viable alternative to 70mm production. It's well-funded, well-supported and has a great, experienced crew.


Our sound recordist called Red today to find out what cables and adaptors he will need to work with Red. They very helpfully told him what was needed, and then told him "but we will only sell to camera owners"!


I have come to terms with the fact that Red won't sell me a replacement CF module as a non-owner, but preventing a respected, established LA sound recordist from buying what he needs to hook into the camera?!? HOW does that help anyone?

It seems to me sometimes that perhaps Red doesn't really want to be accepted into mainstream high-end production. Maybe the allure of being the underdog is too great?

All I know is that now our DP, who (surprisingly enough) has other things to worry about, now has to call Red to see if perhaps he might be important enough to order a few cables so we can adapt Red's 'unique' audio connectors into something usable!

Sheesh!

[John V]

Totally Agree. The only thing I see is that there is a supply issue with many components. Some of the companies that make the parts have never been in a place where there is more demand than supply

[Jay A. Kelley]

I feel like I am only getting one part of the story here.

Jay

[Jarred Land]

audio cables are in a very limited supply right now, and its only fair to sell them to back ordered customers that have been waiting for a year. sorry if that wasn't conveyed .

[Jeremy Teman]

Who owns the cameras you'll be using? Get them to call Red

[Jay A. Kelley]

audio cables are in a very limited supply right now, and its only fair to sell them to back ordered customers that have been waiting for a year. sorry if that wasn't conveyed .

There's the part I was not hearing!

Jay

[Joel Kaye]

audio cables are in a very limited supply right now, and its only fair to sell them to back ordered customers that have been waiting for a year. sorry if that wasn't conveyed .

Plus other people are making them right? That particular piece (even with the resistors) isn't rocket science.

So... uh... you're not putting miniXlRs and miniBNC's on Scarlet are you?

[Brent J. Craig]

I'm not going to turn this into another connector debate, but we wouldn't be having this conversation about pretty much any other camera. 3 pin XLR's seem to be plentiful. BNC's, yup.

[Jason Ing]

audio cables are in a very limited supply right now, and its only fair to sell them to back ordered customers that have been waiting for a year. sorry if that wasn't conveyed .

i agree. red has never been "exclusionary". so, no, i disagree that it has a member's only attitude. red is doing exactly what every company should be doing... looking after it's primary customers and being fair.

do you really think that if they readily had the item in stock that they don't want to make a profit?

jim did not become a billionaire for NOT selling.

[Jason Ing]

if they're readily available, why call Red? and if they were readily available by a third party source, red would be the first to tell you. they always have.

[Leo Ticheli]

With items still in short supply, owners needs must come first. I'm quite certain Red will be happy to sell to all when the pipeline is filled.

It took my engineer no time at all to make up three audio cables with standard on one end and mini on the other, plus three short adapters.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo Ticheli
Director/Cinematographer

[Clint Johnson]

And you do know that those special cables are only needed if you are using phantom power from the Red right? I would have thought that your sound recordist would be running the audio through their mixer and using that to power the microphones.

When you are not using the Red phantom power then there is no problem using any off the shelf miniXLR to full sized XLR and you should be able to find those for $25 or less.

[Jannard]

If one person ever feels like we are becoming "exclusionary", we will stop what we are doing and make sure we aren't contributing to that perception. It is not in our DNA. The whole point of this camera was to include EVERYONE in the possibility of making great images.

Jim

[Paul Harrill]

On a practical note, you can buy adaptors here:

http://best-tronics.com/guitar-cable/microphone/mini-xlr.aspx

[zak forrest]

those cables broke on me, they seemed cheap. anyone else have similar experiences? anyone have another place to recommend getting more cables?

[Matthew Verkler]

Thank you for your response, Jim, and as always for your attitude.

I guess this is one of those "good" problems to have for Red. Demand currently way outstrips supply - those who have cameras now do deserve first crack at accessories as they become available. In this case, the camera supplier really needs to be responsible for providing those cables (and working with Red if they don't currently have them), and the sound guy should be approaching them on this issue. Like the sound guy, I like to be as prepared as possible, but for now, it's up to the equipment owner.

Another possible solution to this short-term accessory supply problem might be some kind of Craiglist for Red, where people can post their needs and also what they have to rent. Perhaps this exists already but I am not aware of it.

In any case, Red and Jim's attitude is clear, and they've already lifted the bar industry-wide for image quality. They've got a tough challenge providing us Red addicts our "fix". These are the early days of this revolution, a little like the Wild West; let's keep it in perspective.

[David Battistella]

CrewPix.

You are in Toronto? Cal TREW AUDIO. They can build whatever cable you need. Talk to Kieran. It's in your own backyard and you do not have to have it fedexed to from California.

David

[Dylan Reeve]

Suddenly made me wonder if I can buy RED CF cards as a non-owner (I haven't tried yet, but I will need to get a few for testing the SolidStore soon).

[Don King]

The whole point of this camera was to include EVERYONE in the possibility of making great images.

JimThanks. That's why I am here.

[Ken K]

Suddenly made me wonder if I can buy RED CF cards as a non-owner (I haven't tried yet, but I will need to get a few for testing the SolidStore soon).
If you can't, buy the Lexar UDMA cards. The 8GB ones are $170 from B&H and have an $80 rebate. They allow 3 per household, so you can get 3 cards for $90/each.

[Brook Willard]

If one person ever feels like we are becoming "exclusionary", we will stop what we are doing and make sure we aren't contributing to that perception. It is not in our DNA. The whole point of this camera was to include EVERYONE in the possibility of making great images.

Jim

Great! May I have a login and password for the support site now? I use the RED more than some camera owners! :) :wink::shiftyph34r:

[dino g]

more than MOST brook. make those clients happy so they tell two friends, and so on and so on.

[Shawn Booth]

Redconnector.com


Thank you for your response, Jim, and as always for your attitude.

I guess this is one of those "good" problems to have for Red. Demand currently way outstrips supply - those who have cameras now do deserve first crack at accessories as they become available. In this case, the camera supplier really needs to be responsible for providing those cables (and working with Red if they don't currently have them), and the sound guy should be approaching them on this issue. Like the sound guy, I like to be as prepared as possible, but for now, it's up to the equipment owner.

Another possible solution to this short-term accessory supply problem might be some kind of Craiglist for Red, where people can post their needs and also what they have to rent. Perhaps this exists already but I am not aware of it.

In any case, Red and Jim's attitude is clear, and they've already lifted the bar industry-wide for image quality. They've got a tough challenge providing us Red addicts our "fix". These are the early days of this revolution, a little like the Wild West; let's keep it in perspective.

[Jeff Coatney]

Great! May I have a login and password for the support site now? I use the RED more than some camera owners! :) :wink::shiftyph34r:

It won't help. Only one Owner per camera is allowed a login and passcode. If your partner gets hit by a bus, you gotta buy a new camera.:biggrin:

[Andrew M.]

CrewPix.

You are in Toronto? Cal TREW AUDIO. They can build whatever cable you need. Talk to Kieran. It's in your own backyard and you do not have to have it fedexed to from California.

David

Hey! i am from Virginia and Kieran TREW AUDIO from Toronto just made me cables for my camera.

CrewPix, looks like foreigners know better your city than the guy that was born there.

And again, you don’t need these RED xlr->XLR if you never turn the phantom power on.
Believe me, if you do nature and live interviews you do not want to work with 48V in line, now.
You will blow something sooner or later and no spare parts are sold by RED for the time being, so we have to take the whole RED body as a spare.
Your audio guy will take a mixer with him anyway so LINE LEVEL OUT from RED and no 48V.
Check everything before you go!!

[David Battistella]

And again, you don’t need these RED xlr->XLR if you never turn the phantom power on.
Believe me, if you do nature and live interviews you do not want to work with 48V in line, now.
You will blow something sooner or later and no spare parts are sold by RED for the time being, so we have to take the whole RED body as a spare.
Your audio guy will take a mixer with him anyway so LINE LEVEL OUT from RED and no 48V.
Check everything before you go!!

EVERYONE HEED THIS VERY GOOD ADVICE!

David

[Johnny Friday]

If you need audio cables:

I stopped by Coffee Sound in Los Angeles a few days ago and they are making for me and many others---custom connectors bundled EXACTLY how i want them and in the colors i want them. Had four connectors made from Red's connectors to XLR---and in my color scheme and bundled in pairs for $185. And the quality is second to none.

I think you can find many accessories out there if you do a bit of leg work and in the pro arena you'll find many folks able and willing to make anything you want.

While i like my (included) Red audio connector, I only received one and it was not the length i wanted so I just went out and bought exactly what i needed with a week turnaround---or next day for a $50 expedite fee. So you can get the cables you need and at your specs. from other outlets

[Matthew Verkler]

Redconnector.com

Thanks Kowboy.

[Brook Willard]

more than MOST brook. make those clients happy so they tell two friends, and so on and so on.

Happy customers, happy clients, happy camera techs... we all win.

[Brent J. Craig]

Thanks to everyone for the alternate sources for Red cables. I knew that the audio cables from Red contained some components to fix a camera problem, so I was unaware that they were available from anyone else but Red.

Rather than brushing off our sound recordist because he hasn't bought a camera, Red could have made an effort to direct him to these alternate sources, thus spreading goodwill and getting one small step closer to their system gaining a wider acceptance.

Red - it's great you want to look after your paying customers but you must understand that your choice of non-standard connectors for everything has created confusion and shortages. I hope you realize at some point that cameras are tools that are used by many more people than just the original purchasers.

We are really trying to integrate this very new thing into a century-old business. Resistance to change is strong and acceptance must be gained slowly. Working with everybody, even lowly sound recordists or camera assistants goes a long way towards this goal.

[Brent J. Craig]

The whole point of this camera was to include EVERYONE in the possibility of making great images.

We want to make great sound to go with the great images.

As image makers we hire other people to do that for us. As passionate as we are about what we see, these guys feel the same way about what they hear. The problem is they need to hook into our cameras to do their jobs. I hope we can get this figured out.

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

I am the DP on the shoot that is being discussed here.

I'll take this opportunity to first say thanks to RED for making it possible for us to entertain a "front to back 4K workflow". The initial camera suggestion for this shoot was an F900. Quite frankly I probably would not have entertained doing this shoot without something like the RED.

Also, I'll take this opportunity to thank Nate for getting me my order with good humour and excellent timing.

I got my camera yesterday and I am over the top in love!

I'd also like to take this opportunity to say thanks to all the users on this board. We can all count on each other to provide solutions to the problems we face with this new technology.

When CREWPIX and I were shooting today (on one of those ancient "film" cameras!) and he told me about the response our sound guy got, I sighed. Yes, I have a lot to figure out...last thing a DP wants to be doing is ordering sound cables! (Phantom what? :tongue:)

Thanks to all of your input, I'll tell our sound guy "Look, can you just check the reduser board...please! I am learning how to do a blackshading on the camera".

It is a bumpy ride, but well worth the bruises.

Thanks to all...

"I love you man!"

Dylan Macleod
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

[Brent J. Craig]

I've forwarded him the link. We'll get through this.