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Iskandar Abdullayev
02-26-2014, 11:34 AM
Dragon owners, how rentable is Dragon? Do clients line up to book it? I need to put at least 10 weeks a year in the business plan to justify its purchase vs Alexa.
Thank you!

Stephen Williams
02-26-2014, 11:57 AM
Dragon owners, how rentable is Dragon? Do clients line up to book it? I need to put at least 10 weeks a year in the business plan to justify its purchase vs Alexa.
Thank you!


All depends on your client base........By the time you get one it will be quite a common camera.

Justin O'Neill
02-26-2014, 12:01 PM
I would look at it more from the angle of how rentable the MX will be in a month or two. I tried leaving one of my RED One cameras on the original Mysterium sensor and it almost never rented out as soon as there were a bunch of MXs out there. As soon as Dragon becomes the norm the MX is going to be very difficult to rent out. You may get lucky and have a client or two who don't care but in general everyone is going to want Dragon.

Zeb B
02-26-2014, 12:08 PM
Dragon owners, how rentable is Dragon? Do clients line up to book it? I need to put at least 10 weeks a year in the business plan to justify its purchase vs Alexa.
Thank you!

Like anything - it's highly regional since it's based on supply and demand. Only your own personal research can answer your question.

Robert Ruffo New
02-26-2014, 12:15 PM
Dragon is a better camera when compared to Alexa C300 etc. than Epic MX was making that same choice between camera possibilities

Total number of Dragons likely to be about the same (maybe a few less) than current crop of Epic MX cameras, per market. Lots of people have given up on owning/operating their own cams at this stage, and those most likely to have gone out of business are those who were charging the lowest prices, so market will get a bit better. Also, those who charged bottom rates are unlikely to be able to afford Dragon upgrade.

So look at how much Epic MX rents now, and for how much, and add a better situation, because a Dragon is simply a better camera, and the other competing offerings have not really improved and then you get you answer.

Turns out "game changer" BM 4K camera has mediocre image quality (those who can't see this should get their eyesight checked) so that is not a competitor, really, and c300/c500 have their place but really it's between F55, Alexa and Dragon, and for now Dragon image quality is just plain better (whereas MX had less latitude, less precise color that needed more grading etc. than Alexa) Some people will still choose Alexa regardless, and sometimes f55 global shutter is very important, but at least now it's a good fight that Dragon will be able to win much more often.

Brian Merlen
02-26-2014, 02:54 PM
My MX is still doing okay now, not sure for how long though, but since I am upgrading it doesn't really matter anyway.. but the fact its going out still is kinda nice and the longer it takes the upgrade program the more I can milk it, so I really don't mind the wait at all actually

Noah Yuan-Vogel
02-27-2014, 05:12 AM
Turns out "game changer" BM 4K camera has mediocre image quality (those who can't see this should get their eyesight checked) so that is not a competitor, really, and c300/c500 have their place but really it's between F55, Alexa and Dragon, and for now Dragon image quality is just plain better (whereas MX had less latitude, less precise color that needed more grading etc. than Alexa) Some people will still choose Alexa regardless, and sometimes f55 global shutter is very important, but at least now it's a good fight that Dragon will be able to win much more often.

What in you opinion is wrong with the bmpc 4k? I was surprised to see DR and sensitivity seemed comparable with MX. You don't think its a strong scarlet alternative?

Joachim Hoge
02-27-2014, 08:00 AM
My MX is still doing okay now, not sure for how long though, but since I am upgrading it doesn't really matter anyway.. but the fact its going out still is kinda nice and the longer it takes the upgrade program the more I can milk it, so I really don't mind the wait at all actually

Have to agree with this

Wil Wong
02-27-2014, 08:33 AM
I predict a few years of interest still. If anything, the MX will start eating into the Scarlet's clientele (those renters that wanna play with the toys but have little budget).

I think Dragon will cost more to rent from the beginning and eventually lower to the current Epic prices (but probably still a few years from now).

Demand may lessen for high end renters that rather have Dragon over MX but the low end users will stay the same if not increase (as they move up from Scarlets and using DSLRs to MX). Just my opinion.

Gavin Greenwalt
02-27-2014, 09:20 AM
I have relied on word of mouth, and I don't even really have a big network of people I know but my Epic upgrade paid itself off in about 8 months, twice as fast as my lower priced Scarlet--just because I missed out on so many rentals. Like Justin said though, if you have an Epic you might as well assume you have to upgrade. You'll lose more rentals to Dragon than the cost of upgrading in very short order. I don't expect any more rentals than I currently get with MX, I just expect to not lose everyone who will move over to a Dragon option if available.

Also the sooner you upgrade the better. The Dragon upgrade isn't going to drop in price. The longer you don't have it, the less time it has to pay itself off unless you plan on waiting 2-3 years for the next available upgrade in 2016-2017+

Elsie N
02-27-2014, 11:10 AM
When making your decision, take into consideration that Dragon is not only a better camera, but is accompanied by image enhancing workflow such as A.D.D. in Redcine X Pro, and presumably in the SDK for employment in other NLEs.

Clayton Burkhart
02-27-2014, 11:56 AM
I am not so sure there will be the kind of overwhelming response to Dragon that some are hoping for.
The reality is that RED is known to most commercial clients based on hype.
The DP's know the difference and maybe a couple of art directors, but most clients are often happy that the side of the camera just says RED or ALEXA.
Truth is there is not that much visually to differentiate an Epic MX from a Dragon body.
And let's face it, in an image making world, most of the taste makers are not DP's, but rather AD's who are pretty superficial when it comes to our technique.
I think Scarlet might lose over time with this next generation of sensor, but not because of DR differences, more likely because of it's lack of high frame rates and having to crop to arrive at them. If there ever was a group of folks who need to upgrade to Dragon, it's those folks, not the Epic owners.

BigLu
02-27-2014, 12:23 PM
Hi Iskandar,

I comunicate with, work , spend time and hang out with DRAGON owners on a daily basis.
Theres something like 25 Dragons in my circle of friends.
People like Tonaci, Casey, Ivan, Justin, Evin, Fury, Phill, Collister, Vlad, just to name a few, I also have 2 myself.
That is not including rental houses like OffHollywood out of N.Y. whom I learn so much from Mark Pederson its astounding what he does and knows about these cameras.

The simple answer is VERY RENTABLE. If that answers your question Great..
If not here is how you can approach your Dragon purchase.

The common denominator is everyone is striving to understand and GRAPPLE the Beast.

It does have alot to do with your client base, how you reach your clients, what kind of not just gear support you offer but what kind of POST support do you offer and or atleast educate your clients.
Do you have Glass, do you have, accessories, do you have a useful hand held rig, heres a biggie. Do you have a REDROCKET X?
Everyone I know whom has a Dragon takes the time to really dive in and become as educated as possible on what the camera does, can do and the post solutions out there accompanied with it.

As the technology in these cameras is constantly improving.
RED GOES HARDCORE at this.
It is relentless that they just keep getting better and better every year every 1/2 year and sometimes even month to month.
and coming up with sometimes new features, or new software advancements, perhaps new support from 3rd party manufactures, sometimes new breakthrews in software, and other times flat out new improvements in hardware.

This is a constant learning exercise and re-educating your clients.
The proof is in the experience.
Get the camera in your hands, get it into your clients hands and it will do the rest.
If your up for all that then you can look forward to success with your Dragon.

I hope that helps
Best to ya.
Luis

Michael Hastings
02-27-2014, 01:10 PM
What in you opinion is wrong with the bmpc 4k? I was surprised to see DR and sensitivity seemed comparable with MX. You don't think its a strong scarlet alternative?




Rob has taken it upon himself to be the prime basher of the BMP4K on reduser even though other redusers seem to like it. I have just received two and so far I'm impressed with a lot of things about it besides just the cost. I haven't had enough time to evaluate rob's opinion that the lack of OLPF renders human faces virtually unwatchable, but I feel like he's exaggerating a bit. I think it is a very strong contender vs. scarlet.

In my mind if one is in a budget mode where scarlet made sense, that now the BMP4K is a much better overall value given the low cost of memory, power, rigging etc. because for the same overall budget you could put together a better overall system - i.e. with tripod, lights, computer, etc. To me the only user where a scarlet makes sense is if you already own an epic and need a matching second camera but wouldn't normally need two high speed cameras.

I believe that if RED wants to compete in the relatively low priced segment it has to do something to increase the bang for buck ratio of the scarlet or offer a new product with greater bang for buck. However, I think that for the most part they have surrendered the sub-5K market.

A lot of RED's structure is based on proprietary components i.e.: RED RAW only; RED SSDs only; RED modules only, etc. and while that has its advantages it makes it very hard to compete once the rest of the world almost catches up to what you are doing with off the shelf mass produced sensors, off the shelf mass produced processing components (BMD has been making digitizers, transcoders, SSD recorders, etc. in volume for years), off the shelf mass produced SSDs - even the 'approved' SSDs for the BMD cameras are only $159 for a 240 gig ($1.50 per gig) vs. $2500 for the 256 REDMAG (~$10 per gig). Of course you can move to the minimags and cut that to $4.75 per gig as long as you are willing to buy a new $1500 side module and abandon your old cards. (I'm still trying to figure how that fits into 'obsolescence obsolete'.) It seems to me the market that is willing to pay that much of a premium to get marginally better quality is going to continue to shrink.

As far as renting, the rental market is dramatically influenced by the cost of ownership and the number of appropriate cameras available in the marketplace. As far as I can tell the market is already saturated with Epics and combine that with the ability to buy 4K cameras for the price of a week's rental of an epic there will be further erosion of potential rentals. All of the things BigLu said are important and viable - to a small sector of the production community, and the people he mentioned are already working with that segment. However, the vast majority of clients that most owner/operators or small rental houses have do not have the time or budget (or often even the need) for all of those things.

If you have rental clients now and/or the type of business that is adding rental clients then you will be able to rent Dragon as well, but if you expect to have rentals fall in your lap just because you have a dragon camera (as happened in the early days of REDONE and Epic) I think those days are gone.

Robert Ruffo New
02-27-2014, 01:35 PM
What in you opinion is wrong with the bmpc 4k? I was surprised to see DR and sensitivity seemed comparable with MX. You don't think its a strong scarlet alternative?

Harsh highlight clipping, no OLPF means all skin defects on all talent look worse than real life (which compounded with clippy whites makes skin look both greasy and wrinkly - BAD), very low sensitivity, nowhere near dynamic range of MX - at least 2-3 stops less and clip to white is very hard, so maybe even worse than that), mediocre 4:2:2 codec means color grading is nowhere near as potentially powerful as with R3Ds, backfocus cannot be adjusted, sound is terrible, no histograms or other normal professional tools for exposure. No comparison to Scarlet unless you have serious eyesight issues and so do all your clients.

Robert Ruffo New
02-27-2014, 01:49 PM
Rob has taken it upon himself to be the prime basher of the BMP4K on reduser even though other redusers seem to like it. I have just received two and so far I'm impressed with a lot of things about it besides just the cost. I haven't had enough time to evaluate rob's opinion that the lack of OLPF renders human faces virtually unwatchable, but I feel like he's exaggerating a bit. I think it is a very strong contender vs. scarlet.

In my mind if one is in a budget mode where scarlet made sense, that now the BMP4K is a much better overall value given the low cost of memory, power, rigging etc. because for the same overall budget you could put together a better overall system - i.e. with tripod, lights, computer, etc. To me the only user where a scarlet makes sense is if you already own an epic and need a matching second camera but wouldn't normally need two high speed cameras.

I believe that if RED wants to compete in the relatively low priced segment it has to do something to increase the bang for buck ratio of the scarlet or offer a new product with greater bang for buck. However, I think that for the most part they have surrendered the sub-5K market.

A lot of RED's structure is based on proprietary components i.e.: RED RAW only; RED SSDs only; RED modules only, etc. and while that has its advantages it makes it very hard to compete once the rest of the world almost catches up to what you are doing with off the shelf mass produced sensors, off the shelf mass produced processing components (BMD has been making digitizers, transcoders, SSD recorders, etc. in volume for years), off the shelf mass produced SSDs - even the 'approved' SSDs for the BMD cameras are only $159 for a 240 gig ($1.50 per gig) vs. $2500 for the 256 REDMAG (~$10 per gig). Of course you can move to the minimags and cut that to $4.75 per gig as long as you are willing to buy a new $1500 side module and abandon your old cards. (I'm still trying to figure how that fits into 'obsolescence obsolete'.) It seems to me the market that is willing to pay that much of a premium to get marginally better quality is going to continue to shrink.

As far as renting, the rental market is dramatically influenced by the cost of ownership and the number of appropriate cameras available in the marketplace. As far as I can tell the market is already saturated with Epics and combine that with the ability to buy 4K cameras for the price of a week's rental of an epic there will be further erosion of potential rentals. All of the things BigLu said are important and viable - to a small sector of the production community, and the people he mentioned are already working with that segment. However, the vast majority of clients that most owner/operators or small rental houses have do not have the time or budget (or often even the need) for all of those things.

If you have rental clients now and/or the type of business that is adding rental clients then you will be able to rent Dragon as well, but if you expect to have rentals fall in your lap just because you have a dragon camera (as happened in the early days of REDONE and Epic) I think those days are gone.

Every time some cheap new camera comes out some clients wonder why they should continue to pay for things like Epic and Alexa when they can get something for $5 a day from some desperate BM owner that has "the same specs". I am merely pointing out at $40 000 (or so) for an Epic Dragon and $3K for BM - these are both reasonable price points as BM cameras have many serious deficiencies, and the extra you pay for Dragon is worth it to get away from these serious problems, and get a lot of other benefits along the way. BM cameras are not bad value for what they charge, and great student cams - but when you allow yourself to see the image flaws, you realize that $3K is a very good, but not actually a crazy-good price.

I'm not out to bash anyone - I'm out to help clarify differences so that all of you can more easily describe them to clients. "My BM is as good as your Red" is just misinformation - and there is a ton of that on the Internet. "My f55/Alexa/F35 is as good as your Red" is a more reasonable claim, endlessly debatable, but not ludicrous like the BM one.

I personally would not wish to have a career doing shot after shot with artifacts and deficiencies , aiming squarely for a 100% low-end market, so I have no interest in owning BM camera gear. if I were still a student I would be drooling over one (probably the 2K older model more so, because the 4K looks way worse in every test I have done and seen). I would be grateful to BM for access to such a great camera that I could save up for from beer money. When I was at University, we shot a lot of stuff on SD DV.

Here in Montreal endless bad experiences and nasty surprises in post with every low-end cam out there, from DSLRs to BM, have taught smart producers that putting your entire production at risk by trying to save $750 on camera rentals is plain old stupid "penny wise, pound foolish" behavior. Even the less smart ones are starting to get the memo, and even on low-ish budgets like $10 000 music videos.

I never said it would be easy to rent a Dragon, only that it will be somewhat easier than it was to rent Epic MX, for the reasons I mentioned. I also agree with what Lu says - he gets it.

I don't live in a communist society (and I'm glad). If you have more money in your production budget, you get to use better tools, and they really are better in meaningful ways, no matter what those in a situation to only be able to afford lesser tools tell themselves (I've been in that situation, I know from experience how the psychology works). I don't see what the problem is with that. It would be a problem if higher priced cameras were more expensive for no reason.

Michael Hastings
02-27-2014, 01:55 PM
Harsh highlight clipping, no OLPF means all skin defects on all talent look worse than real life (which compounded with clippy whites makes skin look both greasy and wrinkly - BAD), very low sensitivity, nowhere near dynamic range of MX - at least 2-3 stops less and clip to white is very hard, so maybe even worse than that), mediocre 4:2:2 codec means color grading is nowhere near as potentially powerful as with R3Ds, backfocus cannot be adjusted, sound is terrible, no histograms or other normal professional tools for exposure. No comparison to Scarlet unless you have serious eyesight issues and so do all your clients.


Rob you know raw is coming - and it is nice to have the option of shooting ProRes and DNXHD - something RED doesn't seem to be willing to give us.

I agree back focus adjustability is somewhat of an issue, but probably not so much for most users that eye focus, like me, Steve Gibby and thousands of other users whether they use Red cameras or others. Sound is somewhat of an issue, but I find the mini plug sound inputs on Epic extremely unprofessional as well. And I will say for a few productions with the BMCC 2.5K the built in scratch mic (something epic lacks) made it easy to sync the double system sound.

There is certainly room for improvement in several areas, including sound - but if IIRC my Redone didn't even record sound when it was delivered - took several firmware updates to get there even though I paid over $20K for it.

And the original Redone didn't have adjustable back focus either - they recalled them and made an adjustable mount (which created other problems) presumably because of the complaints that the camera sensor distances were so inconsistent. Maybe Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad, Arriflex, and possibly BMD are better able to provide consistent back focus since none of them have back focus adjustment either.

AS far as histograms and other exposure tools, are you even aware that the 2.5K and 4K come not only with a full version of resolve but a Ultrascope as well which turns your laptop into up to six scopes, waveform, vector, RGB parade, histogram, audio scope and level meters for phase and levels, as well as a regular video monitor?

Can you show some demonstration of how with decent looking talent and decent lighting that the skin is so bad rather than just stating that as fact?

Mike Garrick
02-27-2014, 02:15 PM
There are already so many Epics out there, one has to assume that they will all go Dragon. SO, how much a day more for Dragon, $500 more, $200 more , $50 bucks or the same price as those Epics are renting for right now ?

IMO The days of renting gear & profiting are drawing to a close ( unless you're a big player ).

So its simple dont base your math on rentals, base it on the old adage, use it or loose it.

Robert Ruffo New
02-27-2014, 03:13 PM
Rob you know raw is coming - and it is nice to have the option of shooting ProRes and DNXHD - something RED doesn't seem to be willing to give us.

I agree back focus adjustability is somewhat of an issue, but probably not so much for most users that eye focus, like me, Steve Gibby and thousands of other users whether they use Red cameras or others. Sound is somewhat of an issue, but I find the mini plug sound inputs on Epic extremely unprofessional as well. And I will say for a few productions with the BMCC 2.5K the built in scratch mic (something epic lacks) made it easy to sync the double system sound.

There is certainly room for improvement in several areas, including sound - but if IIRC my Redone didn't even record sound when it was delivered - took several firmware updates to get there even though I paid over $20K for it.

And the original Redone didn't have adjustable back focus either - they recalled them and made an adjustable mount (which created other problems) presumably because of the complaints that the camera sensor distances were so inconsistent. Maybe Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad, Arriflex, and possibly BMD are better able to provide consistent back focus since none of them have back focus adjustment either.

AS far as histograms and other exposure tools, are you even aware that the 2.5K and 4K come not only with a full version of resolve but a Ultrascope as well which turns your laptop into up to six scopes, waveform, vector, RGB parade, histogram, audio scope and level meters for phase and levels, as well as a regular video monitor?

Can you show some demonstration of how with decent looking talent and decent lighting that the skin is so bad rather than just stating that as fact?

Backfocus is an issue because your focus fall-off does not behave properly and breathing becomes more pronounced- it has nothing to do with focussing by eye or not (well, to me it's not the important thing) - and 4K RAW, uncompressed, will create ludicrous file sizes.

You can't monitor the histogram of RAW using an external scope by definition - its in the video output chain so tells you little about RAW recording. Plus I don't cherish having to tether my cam every time I want to check scopes - that would be really, really annoying on Steadiacm or while doing scenic b-rolls with a tiny crew. It would generally waste a lot of set time for no good reason.

If you want an example of why I don;t think the new BM 4K is all that useable look here. https://vimeo.com/86892302


That poor girl looks way worse under BM cam than Epic (and Scarlet would also look great) same girl, same light ,same everything. What a difference a camera makes. The clouds also hard-clip - but clippy clouds I can live with, making talent look bad I cannot.

No OLPF + harsh clip = wrinkly, greasy looking skin - which you can see form the Epic shots is a distortion of reality - she's a very pretty girl. I would never accept to shoot humans with this camera. Anyone who thinks it doesn't matter which camera you use needs to see an eye doctor pronto.

Robert Ruffo New
02-27-2014, 04:03 PM
There are already so many Epics out there, one has to assume that they will all go Dragon. SO, how much a day more for Dragon, $500 more, $200 more , $50 bucks or the same price as those Epics are renting for right now ?

IMO The days of renting gear & profiting are drawing to a close ( unless you're a big player ).

So its simple dont base your math on rentals, base it on the old adage, use it or loose it.

I aim to break even vs renting for our own projects. On Epic, not quite yet, as so many times Alexa is requested/demanded. But Dragon seems to be is changing that somewhat from what I can intuit so far. External demand for Epic MX in Montreal is almost non-existent. Many Epic owners I have spoken to are throwing in the towel, and lost so much money on their Epics they can't afford Dragon anyway - so there will be less competition, at least in Montreal.

To the question if I spend 10K now will I get 10K more rentals over 1.5 years the answer is much, much more likely than not yes, because otherwise our Epic will never rent again after Dragon becomes more common, as even our own clients will probably not let us use it anymore as an A cam.

Björn Benckert
02-27-2014, 04:12 PM
There are already so many Epics out there, one has to assume that they will all go Dragon. SO, how much a day more for Dragon, $500 more, $200 more , $50 bucks or the same price as those Epics are renting for right now ?

IMO The days of renting gear & profiting are drawing to a close ( unless you're a big player ).

So its simple dont base your math on rentals, base it on the old adage, use it or loose it.

Actually we do not charge more for Dragon. As I see it we have a 3 years old camera that got a 9000USD upgrade. A good upgrade that is but the cost is covered with less than 9 days rent...

Iskandar Abdullayev
02-27-2014, 06:25 PM
Thank you all for great answers, they were very helpful :)

shashbugu
02-27-2014, 07:38 PM
I can truly and absolutely assure you that the DEMAND for the Red Dragon, today today is higher than the DEMAND for an Arri Alexa. Real talk. I know first hand... Now that is Demand!!!!! As far as supply goes its a whole different story. I have called around to realize that most Dragon owners are not real business men and quote prices that make producers say well "maybe next time". Unless you own a carbon dragon you should really rent you should really rent your Dragon at the same price as an MX. Always remember the cost of 6k post is exponential and is always factored into a production. I'm talking real world experience. This has been the downfall of the F55. There is no real DEMAND for C500, but once you do the entire production math it makes absolute sense to use a C500. This by all means does not adhere to Hollywood productions, major indies and high end commercials where clearly the Arri Alexa Workflow has become the conventional line item norm for Enterainment Partners accounting and bonding, much like Avid offline/ online.

In another world ie dvxuser world, the C300, c100, are the most rented cameras out there. Lower end filmmakers have not read the MeMo on dynamic range, resolution, and color fidelity.

So if you want to have a successful camera rental business.... Rent your Dragon for MX prices and get your clients hooked on luscious images.

Robert Ruffo New
02-27-2014, 07:57 PM
I can truly and absolutely assure you that the DEMAND for the Red Dragon, today today is higher than the DEMAND for an Arri Alexa. Real talk. I know first hand... Now that is Demand!!!!! As far as supply goes its a whole different story. I have called around to realize that most Dragon owners are not real business men and quote prices that make producers say well "maybe next time". Unless you own a carbon dragon you should really rent you should really rent your Dragon at the same price as an MX. Always remember the cost of 6k post is exponential and is always factored into a production. I'm talking real world experience. This has been the downfall of the F55. There is no real DEMAND for C500, but once you do the entire production math it makes absolute sense to use a C500. This by all means does not adhere to Hollywood productions, major indies and high end commercials where clearly the Arri Alexa Workflow has become the conventional line item norm for Enterainment Partners accounting and bonding, much like Avid offline/ online.

In another world ie dvxuser world, the C300, c100, are the most rented cameras out there. Lower end filmmakers have not read the MeMo on dynamic range, resolution, and color fidelity.

So if you want to have a successful camera rental business.... Rent your Dragon for MX prices and get your clients hooked on luscious images.

You make good points but as computers get faster this will quickly become a non-issue, and to a great degree already is. 6K post no big problem on all but the very oldest desktops.

Nick Morrison
02-27-2014, 08:43 PM
You make good points but as computers get faster this will quickly become a non-issue, and to a great degree already is. 6K post no big problem on all but the very oldest desktops.

I agree. Jarred pretty much said as much, and inferred this was one of the reasons they were dropping the proxy module. The cost of entry to manage and grade 6k footage has dropped dramatically over past couple of years.

shashbugu
02-27-2014, 09:55 PM
You make good points but as computers get faster this will quickly become a non-issue, and to a great degree already is. 6K post no big problem on all but the very oldest desktops.

I agree the new mac pros, dells, box and HPs will dramatically change the post landscape for Raw workflows

Justin McAleece
02-27-2014, 10:28 PM
Backfocus is an issue because your focus fall-off does not behave properly and breathing becomes more pronounced- it has nothing to do with focussing by eye or not (well, to me it's not the important thing) - and 4K RAW, uncompressed, will create ludicrous file sizes.

You can't monitor the histogram of RAW using an external scope by definition - its in the video output chain so tells you little about RAW recording. Plus I don't cherish having to tether my cam every time I want to check scopes - that would be really, really annoying on Steadiacm or while doing scenic b-rolls with a tiny crew. It would generally waste a lot of set time for no good reason.

If you want an example of why I don;t think the new BM 4K is all that useable look here. https://vimeo.com/86892302


That poor girl looks way worse under BM cam than Epic (and Scarlet would also look great) same girl, same light ,same everything. What a difference a camera makes. The clouds also hard-clip - but clippy clouds I can live with, making talent look bad I cannot.

No OLPF + harsh clip = wrinkly, greasy looking skin - which you can see form the Epic shots is a distortion of reality - she's a very pretty girl. I would never accept to shoot humans with this camera. Anyone who thinks it doesn't matter which camera you use needs to see an eye doctor pronto.


@ 34 secs. Ouch!

Mike Garrick
02-27-2014, 11:47 PM
I'm not sure why BMCC is being shown here I thought this was about Dragon. BMCC is in no way comparable to dragon.

However if I was a young gun I would be all over this camera, it kills HDLSR and has a vaguely usable UI ( sort of ). The faults being pointed out highlights some of the cameras weaknesses, but so what its a 3k camera. Tried doing whip pans on a 30K Epic recently, it also has issues. Every camera has flaws, stop the tedious HDLSR fanboy rant of my camera is better than yours or worse still my big multi-national logo is better than yours.

Move on ......Bjorn & Rob I agree with both comments nothing extra in the rental rate but possibly more work for early adopters.

Doug Beatty
02-28-2014, 12:03 AM
That poor girl looks way worse under BM cam than Epic (and Scarlet would also look great) same girl, same light ,same everything.

Some people like apples and some prefer oranges, but to be fair, you have to at the very least admit that different lenses and filters were used on each camera in this test.

I see folks on the fourm jumping all over the 'Canon is better in low light than Red' argument. They counter that there is no noise reduction done in camera and a little post NR gets Red footage in the same ballpark. Nothing is stopping you from keying in some softening for skin on the BMCC if it's too sharp for your liking.

Off topic and FWIW- if I wanted a 4K global shutter camera I'd get the BMCC and add a matte box with a full set of ND and soft f/x filters and I'd still have a little money left over in my pocket than if I were to buy a motion mount. I think BMD has a great camera here, and it's going to be very popular.

Elsie N
02-28-2014, 07:58 AM
My thinking is, someday IMAX is going to be very widespread. I believe Dragon will translate to those screens. Think ahead... think big.

Björn Benckert
02-28-2014, 09:41 AM
Ours runs hot I just missed a 60 day rental just because I had a few stray days confirmed with other clients.. bummer. Not much to do about it, called me wanted the camera the following day to get on a plane to go to some remote island for a diving expedition. They ended up with a scarlet instead. Such shit makes me go smurfing around the top section of the red store... looking at the carbon.... but my wife would kill me :)

Michael Hastings
02-28-2014, 10:19 AM
I'm not sure why BMCC is being shown here I thought this was about Dragon. BMCC is in no way comparable to dragon.

However if I was a young gun I would be all over this camera, it kills HDLSR and has a vaguely usable UI ( sort of ). The faults being pointed out highlights some of the cameras weaknesses, but so what its a 3k camera. Tried doing whip pans on a 30K Epic recently, it also has issues. Every camera has flaws, stop the tedious HDLSR fanboy rant of my camera is better than yours or worse still my big multi-national logo is better than yours.

Move on ......Bjorn & Rob I agree with both comments nothing extra in the rental rate but possibly more work for early adopters.


For the record, no one is claiming the BMCC is in any way comparable to Dragon, BMPC4K was brought up in the discussion so made comments. I think the real point is that Epic Rental market is fairly well saturated - the businesses with current and ongoing client growth will rent it as they have rented Epic MX in the past, but individual owner ops will have a hard time - as they do now.

But the original poster asked because he needs 10 weeks of rental in the business plan to justify, but if he is just now ordering he is by definition NOT going to be an early adopter so it doesn't seem likely that he will be able to get his 10 weeks unless he already has significant rental clients that want it because by the time he gets his dragon there will be hundreds or thousands of Dragons flooding the market.

Iskandar Abdullayev
02-28-2014, 11:25 AM
Would Dragons flood the market though? It seems that Dragon sensor production yield might be more limited than EPIC's. Unless current scarcity of Dragons is not artificially created until color science is ironed out or due to upgrades bottleneck, or both, but it's a different story...

Wil Wong
02-28-2014, 11:43 AM
I think Dragons will flood the market eventually. Hard to even know how many will buy a Dragon or Epic and then when Alexa comes out with a 4K version make them wanna sell and buy that (cause it's the latest trend or it's what they were buying time waiting for). I think the longer the gap, the more Dragons will be bought and then suddenly flood the market being sold. It might even drown the market and cause a bad surplus situation.

Iskandar Abdullayev
02-28-2014, 11:58 AM
Alexa 4K will cost an arm and a leg and a kidney :)

Peter Lyons Collister, ASC
02-28-2014, 12:18 PM
Very prescient Elsie...

And anyone who is not considering upgrading to Dragon should plan to do it... It is not only a game changer, I believe no one will rent an Epic MX in a year's time....

Also when did everyone become rental houses? I only make money on my Dragons when I am shooting a TVC or feature....

You will all make your investment back, but really is rental of one or two cameras a living?

I don't mean to burst any bubbles but rental houses exist for a reason. 24 hour service with total 100% redundancy.

Robert Ruffo New
02-28-2014, 12:56 PM
Very prescient Elsie...

And anyone who is not considering upgrading to Dragon should plan to do it... It is not only a game changer, I believe no one will rent an Epic MX in a year's time....

Also when did everyone become rental houses? I only make money on my Dragons when I am shooting a TVC or feature....

You will all make your investment back, but really is rental of one or two cameras a living?

I don't mean to burst any bubbles but rental houses exist for a reason. 24 hour service with total 100% redundancy.

Rentals to others do help the bottom line - not to pay all the bills, but they help cash flow in the right direction. We are a bit less per day than a big rental house, and for things like music videos people do like renting from us. Camera has never gone down on set, but we are very careful about all aspects of maintenance, so huge redundancies are not necessary, plus we have other owner-ops on speed-dial for the remote possibility that ever happened. ACtually our cams are newer, and many people say more reliable/in better shape. Rental house cams can sometimes be very shopworn indeed.

As a director/DP I have so many days of prep, and not that many on-set, so just on our own shoots, its' not always obvious to make the money back, especially when agencies ask for Alexas "because it's better" (I'm not saying I agree, I'm saying… You know how agencies are. :-) But $9500 I would imagine will not be too much of a problem.

Robert Ruffo New
02-28-2014, 04:33 PM
For the record, no one is claiming the BMCC is in any way comparable to Dragon, BMPC4K was brought up in the discussion so made comments. I think the real point is that Epic Rental market is fairly well saturated - the businesses with current and ongoing client growth will rent it as they have rented Epic MX in the past, but individual owner ops will have a hard time - as they do now.

But the original poster asked because he needs 10 weeks of rental in the business plan to justify, but if he is just now ordering he is by definition NOT going to be an early adopter so it doesn't seem likely that he will be able to get his 10 weeks unless he already has significant rental clients that want it because by the time he gets his dragon there will be hundreds or thousands of Dragons flooding the market.

Actually many people do make that claim (have a look at DVXuser… Talk to some agency creatives, or music label video dept people...) I just want to clarify differences, and that is to everyone's benefit. I think that video does a very good of illustrating some of the differences.

Gavin Greenwalt
02-28-2014, 04:44 PM
You will all make your investment back, but really is rental of one or two cameras a living?

Not a living but I think of my Epic as a "co-op". It's nice to have your own camera package for shooting personal projects and if you can rent it out a few days per month it gives you a camera for "free". Clients get a package that is production proven and constantly improving based on shoot experiences. Win-Win in my books.

Brian Merlen
02-28-2014, 07:26 PM
i think someone should loan me their dragon and i could show you how rentable it is :p even my epic does fairly well still...yes im sure it will taper off, but im hoping my dragon will ship before that happens...

Mark Toia
02-28-2014, 07:31 PM
I'm too scared to hire all my Epics out... Someone might scratch them :))))) Lense's are like the jewels... Good ones are so hard to find, someone may drop them.

Im just paranoid buggar. Rather just make money renting them to myself on my own jobs. They have all paid them selves off many times over.

But own operators can do that. It's just all cream after that point.

Nick Morrison
02-28-2014, 08:07 PM
I'm kind of in Toia's boat. I don't ever rent out my gear. My lenses also are like Jewels. I fret way too much over them to ever rent them out. And my Scarlet same way. Can't wait to upgrade to Dragon (Epic first!). For me, Dragon will just make my work look BETTER. And make my clients even happier. They already love what we shoot on Scarlet. Epic should be one step better (hello slow mo!). And Dragon...I hope becomes a game changer, a watershed investment. I see the upgrade as an investment in myself first, and in investment in a camera second.

I'm determined to become a full time director, and believe Dragon could end up playing an important role in that.

Brian Merlen
02-28-2014, 08:11 PM
I can understand and respect that, I just happen to work mostly as a techie/nerd and not an op so for me its kinda rentals or nothing... I'm gonna save up for a new cam I can just play with and not rent out though is my plan...its only 30k (and up for more ram) and it shoots 720p!!!

John Marchant
03-01-2014, 01:56 AM
I love my gear, but I have a thing for any technology that is well used and well maintained in equal measure. Like a car thats been round the clock a few times but runs like new because its always maintained just right.

Its made to be used, and that's why I have no problem renting stuff out. Keeping it looking and working great is part of the fun. Maybe I'm odd...

Noah Yuan-Vogel
03-01-2014, 09:15 AM
You can't monitor the histogram of RAW using an external scope by definition - its in the video output chain so tells you little about RAW recording. Plus I don't cherish having to tether my cam every time I want to check scopes - that would be really, really annoying on Steadiacm or while doing scenic b-rolls with a tiny crew. It would generally waste a lot of set time for no good reason.

If you want an example of why I don;t think the new BM 4K is all that useable look here. https://vimeo.com/86892302


That poor girl looks way worse under BM cam than Epic (and Scarlet would also look great) same girl, same light ,same everything. What a difference a camera makes. The clouds also hard-clip - but clippy clouds I can live with, making talent look bad I cannot.

No OLPF + harsh clip = wrinkly, greasy looking skin - which you can see form the Epic shots is a distortion of reality - she's a very pretty girl. I would never accept to shoot humans with this camera. Anyone who thinks it doesn't matter which camera you use needs to see an eye doctor pronto.

You're basing your comparison entirely on one video that was specifically stated by its creator to not be an image quality comparison test and only a workflow test? In that video the Epic was shot at ISO800, but for all we know the BMPC was shot at ISO200 which could explain the lack of highlight range (although they actually don't appear to be that different, the difference in the ungraded looks seems to be more about lifted shadows).

Why would you have to tether your cam to check scopes? It's just like a RED, if you want wfm/vscope you connect the SDI to a monitor or device that supports such scopes. As for not having an OLPF, are you sure it does not have one? The BMPC seems to have very little aliasing compared to the other blackmagic cameras, several tests I have seen with the camera seem to have trouble bringing out any aliasing.

Wrinkly greasy skin? Seems like you might mostly be reacting to very unmatched shots with poorly matched lighting and hard sun reflectors at very different distances and very different subject distances. Is that all you have to show that the BMPC is unusable before you have used it? You don't think could might be useful to some as a $3K alternative or b-camera to a $20-30k Epic? Or even quite resonable for people who cant afford the camera that is 10x as expensive? Or do you really think people who would consider it unequivocally "need their eyes checked"?

Noah Yuan-Vogel
03-01-2014, 09:20 AM
@ 34 secs. Ouch!

Oh you mean the part where they sidelight the model on one side with hard sun and the other side with a close hard reflector and then never show a matching Epic shot? :P

shashbugu
03-01-2014, 10:26 AM
Rentals to others do help the bottom line - not to pay all the bills, but they help cash flow in the right direction. We are a bit less per day than a big rental house, and for things like music videos people do like renting from us. Camera has never gone down on set, but we are very careful about all aspects of maintenance, so huge redundancies are not necessary, plus we have other owner-ops on speed-dial for the remote possibility that ever happened. ACtually our cams are newer, and many people say more reliable/in better shape. Rental house cams can sometimes be very shopworn indeed.


As a director/DP I have so many days of prep, and not that many on-set, so just on our own shoots, its' not always obvious to make the money back, especially when agencies ask for Alexas "because it's better" (I'm not saying I agree, I'm saying… You know how agencies are. :-) But $9500 I would imagine will not be too much of a problem.

I agree with Rob here. Rental house cams are usually overworked, that's why rental houses have no problem renting you three cams for the price of one, in the event there is a breakdown you'll have a backup without calling them. For international rentals cameras usually come with an AC for a tiny fee or free. What's the difference between that and an owner operator. There are a few owner operators on here that started their business really small with one Red One. They have gone on two supply cameras for blockbuster features. Without naming names.

Tom Greenberg
03-01-2014, 03:51 PM
Not a living but I think of my Epic as a "co-op". It's nice to have your own camera package for shooting personal projects and if you can rent it out a few days per month it gives you a camera for "free". Clients get a package that is production proven and constantly improving based on shoot experiences. Win-Win in my books.
I am with Gavin on this…that is exactly how I approach my camera ownership. I actively rent it out when I'm not able to use it (although I am fairly picky about who I rent to), use the rental revenue to improve and add to the camera package, and then I have the package sitting there and "paid for" when I'm ready to shoot my own projects.

Robert Ruffo New
03-01-2014, 10:06 PM
I'm too scared to hire all my Epics out... Someone might scratch them :))))) Lense's are like the jewels... Good ones are so hard to find, someone may drop them.

Im just paranoid buggar. Rather just make money renting them to myself on my own jobs. They have all paid them selves off many times over.

But own operators can do that. It's just all cream after that point.

We always send out someone from our staff for anything more delicate than a dolly. They are a great and well liked Montreal P.A. so no one complains. They make sure nothing crazy happens. Otherwise I would never rent. I don't put much energy into promoting rentals either. If I could afford it, I would follow your rules about never renting . :-)

Robert Ruffo New
03-01-2014, 10:09 PM
I agree with Rob here. Rental house cams are usually overworked, that's why rental houses have no problem renting you three cams for the price of one, in the event there is a breakdown you'll have a backup without calling them. For international rentals cameras usually come with an AC for a tiny fee or free. What's the difference between that and an owner operator. There are a few owner operators on here that started their business really small with one Red One. They have gone on two supply cameras for blockbuster features. Without naming names.

3 cameras for thw price of one? No not in this part of the world. Sounds like a sweet deal!

Robert Ruffo New
03-01-2014, 10:17 PM
You're basing your comparison entirely on one video that was specifically stated by its creator to not be an image quality comparison test and only a workflow test? In that video the Epic was shot at ISO800, but for all we know the BMPC was shot at ISO200 which could explain the lack of highlight range (although they actually don't appear to be that different, the difference in the ungraded looks seems to be more about lifted shadows).

Why would you have to tether your cam to check scopes? It's just like a RED, if you want wfm/vscope you connect the SDI to a monitor or device that supports such scopes. As for not having an OLPF, are you sure it does not have one? The BMPC seems to have very little aliasing compared to the other blackmagic cameras, several tests I have seen with the camera seem to have trouble bringing out any aliasing.

Wrinkly greasy skin? Seems like you might mostly be reacting to very unmatched shots with poorly matched lighting and hard sun reflectors at very different distances and very different subject distances. Is that all you have to show that the BMPC is unusable before you have used it? You don't think could might be useful to some as a $3K alternative or b-camera to a $20-30k Epic? Or even quite resonable for people who cant afford the camera that is 10x as expensive? Or do you really think people who would consider it unequivocally "need their eyes checked"?

I have tested both cams, side by side. Epic always looks very significantly better, at 1080p, even "for the web", even when all is very carefully controlled, and both cameras are actually side-by-sdie and simultaneous. BTW - the same bad lighting does not look as bad as Epic - both were just as bad in terms of set-up. The only difference is the camera. So it doesn't matter how good or bad the light is really, you're seeing one camera pull through much better in this video, and the other fail. I can tell harsh clipping when I see it. It has nothing to do with workflow, and if you over-expose MX Reds it does not look like that, the curve is much gentler. Alexa is even better, Dragon best. This is a key aspect of image quality.

Besides, look for yourself on Vimeo, 100% of footy from BMC 4K is clippy and oversharpened, and as a result 100% of people look kinda greasy and wrinkly (that can't be true of them in real life).

A Red One Mx and/or a Scarlet is a much, much better B camera and you can rent them very, very inexpensively in most markets - probably same price per day as this cam because it is "new". What would I do with shots where my talent looks older than they are and greasy? I would not want those shots in my edit. A B camera has to be useful or it's a waste of set time.

Mike P.
03-01-2014, 10:41 PM
The hard clip in that video could easily be recovered via "recovery" slider...

It doesn't look "over"-sharpened; it looks sharp. A simple blur or vintage glass or filters would all work to alleviate that.

Truth is, if you can't make CinemaDNG footage look good (the way you want), than it's a problem with you, not the camera. I'd also rgue it takes just as much elbow grease to maximize RED footage (just in different areas).

shashbugu
03-02-2014, 04:15 AM
3 cameras for thw price of one? No not in this part of the world. Sounds like a sweet deal!

Lol, it insane. That's how panavision and co stay in business.

Robert Ruffo New
03-02-2014, 03:22 PM
The hard clip in that video could easily be recovered via "recovery" slider...

It doesn't look "over"-sharpened; it looks sharp. A simple blur or vintage glass or filters would all work to alleviate that.

Truth is, if you can't make CinemaDNG footage look good (the way you want), than it's a problem with you, not the camera. I'd also rgue it takes just as much elbow grease to maximize RED footage (just in different areas).

All of what you say is not true. Digital highlight recovery and actual highlight information are not the same, softer glass and diffusion does not really solve the issue. And besides, even if these mythical tricks did work, I want sharp AND cleanly free of over-sharpening artifacts - not only one or the other as a sad choice that defeats the purpose of recording all that 4K data.

This camera has limitations that no amount of talent can overcome - it will compromise every frame you shoot, no matter what, as it basically runs all your actors through an "ugly filter" that cannot be removed nor fully defeated.

I'm sure you'd like to think that you can get an awesome digital cinema tool for $3K - and that dream is very important to you.

Unfortunately, you can't, you can only get one with all kinds of problems of limitations, adequate for student work and learning, and/or shooting material that has no humans in it and very limited dynamic range. I;m not surprised they cut the price. $3K is a fair price, $4K would be a bit high at this stage, looking at all the footage from the cam I have see (I mean, 100% of all Vimeo posts done with the new BM 4K show the exact same problems).

There is no free lunch on offer - and again, why should there be? You pay more (or actually pay less, by simply renting something else, for now) you get better. That's fair. That's fine.

Or you can pretend that the way your actors look is not important, that it's all about the story anyway - in that case might I suggest a career in writing or radio, not the visual art of cinematography.

If I were you, I would rent for now, save up a bit more, and get a Scarlet or used Red One MX. if you are a student learning framing and so on, then this is a great tool I wish I had when I was at University.

Björn Benckert
03-02-2014, 06:53 PM
I actually like the BM 4k cam and think it holds up very well. But just as any camera you need to work around it's limitations and it for sure has more of those than the dragon, epic and even scarlet. And if I was to buy a camera for my private use I would very much consider it over any other camera in that price range. But as I got a dragon buying it simply does not make sense.

Robert Ruffo New
03-02-2014, 07:26 PM
I actually like the BM 4k cam and think it holds up very well. But just as any camera you need to work around it's limitations and it for sure has more of those than the dragon, epic and even scarlet. And if I was to buy a camera for my private use I would very much consider it over any other camera in that price range. But as I got a dragon buying it simply does not make sense.

What you are saying is that you "like it" but would never shoot with it yourself:glare:

Agree that for $3K, it's a good deal, but 2K older BM seems to look a lot better (not to say it's super-great, but it has better dynamic range, and so the aliasing shows less). New Panasonic GH4 looks much smoother and is even cheaper and has clean outs for external recorder. It doesn't look half-bad.

Thing is maybe sometimes it's better to just rent, if you can't afford to buy a camera that is not going to stab you in the back on every second shot.

Björn Benckert
03-02-2014, 07:44 PM
I bern told there is sone firmware updates coming for the 4k BM cam so I think we can expect it to look far better than the 2k camera in a not to distant future. I just played with it and I would rather have it than a 5d or so and if i had one I would probably use it all the time. Im a fan of havin many cameras running st the same time. We used evereyrhing from 550d, gopros, scarlet etc next to the epic and the bm 4k camera is to me a very good camera thats all. But it does not mean i go and buy one, my friend has one and k will probably trade a dragon day for a BmC 4k week or such then I can use it for bts or just play with it when Im bored at set.

Elsie N
03-02-2014, 08:03 PM
They may have a small window to sell the 4k BM if the Go Pro 4k with higher frame rates is released soon... depending on price of course.

Milan S.
03-02-2014, 09:21 PM
I would look at it more from the angle of how rentable the MX will be in a month or two. I tried leaving one of my RED One cameras on the original Mysterium sensor and it almost never rented out as soon as there were a bunch of MXs out there. As soon as Dragon becomes the norm the MX is going to be very difficult to rent out. You may get lucky and have a client or two who don't care but in general everyone is going to want Dragon.

This.

Obsolesence, more obsolete than ever.

Robert Ruffo New
03-03-2014, 03:22 PM
I bern told there is sone firmware updates coming for the 4k BM cam so I think we can expect it to look far better than the 2k camera in a not to distant future. I just played with it and I would rather have it than a 5d or so and if i had one I would probably use it all the time. Im a fan of havin many cameras running st the same time. We used evereyrhing from 550d, gopros, scarlet etc next to the epic and the bm 4k camera is to me a very good camera thats all. But it does not mean i go and buy one, my friend has one and k will probably trade a dragon day for a BmC 4k week or such then I can use it for bts or just play with it when Im bored at set.

Well, I'm not fan of wasting crew time setting up B-Cams that look significantly worse than the A-cam, and whose footage will bring down the overall visual level of my edit. I don't get bored on set as I am the director-DP and rarely have time even to eat lunch. Go Pro for extreme action shots is another matter - I see the point - but in narrative it would be super-distracting.

I stand behind old BM cameras are actually a little better than new 4K. Maybe you think greasy wrinkly skin is "good" . To each their own.

Did you actually watch that video link? Have you ever shot side-by-side?

Robert Ruffo New
03-03-2014, 03:23 PM
They may have a small window to sell the 4k BM if the Go Pro 4k with higher frame rates is released soon... depending on price of course.

A gopro has a fixed wide-angle lens - not at all the same purpose.

Elsie N
03-03-2014, 04:00 PM
A gopro has a fixed wide-angle lens - not at all the same purpose.

Agreed, but I was thinking market rather than purpose. '-)

Gunleik Groven
03-03-2014, 04:05 PM
Short answer to the OPs question:

Increasingly...

Robert Ruffo New
03-04-2014, 05:47 PM
Short answer to the OPs question:

Increasingly...

That's good news Gunleik. Your market I sense is similar to mine in terms of how your clients think and your level of work - so fingers crossed we'll have the same news here.

Image quality is actually better than Alexa - not just better in some ways but worse in others as was case with Epic MX. SO… You get into "Do you want the best camera possible or not" territory. Many of my clients just want the best, regardless of price (within reason). A clear best is much easier to sell to them.

Glad to hear they are "getting" it though.

Saumene Mehrdady
03-07-2014, 12:54 PM
I'd rent a dragon so long as it's the same rate as an MX. Which seems to be the case at the rental house i frequent

Robert Ruffo New
03-07-2014, 04:22 PM
I'd rent a dragon so long as it's the same rate as an MX. Which seems to be the case at the rental house i frequent

Here (Toronto) they are 30% higher or so. In Montreal there are none to be found yet.

Jeremy Torrie
03-07-2014, 04:26 PM
Zero demand here on the prairies -at least for MB. It's an Alexa market and unfortunately there's been some negative association with Red.

I'd very much like to change that of course since we have two bodies about to get their upgrade. Haven't had an Epic rental aside from our own projects...

Wil Wong
03-07-2014, 07:43 PM
That's a shame Jeremy. I know in Toronto we get a lot of folks that are making Music Videos with Red (and even more using DSLR and hoping to use Red if/when they can afford it). Indie films shoot in DSLR or Red. Only features lean towards Alexa (if not Epic).

I agree with Robert that Dragon here would rent higher then Epic and why not. It is a premium product. It should...at least for the first year while it is a hot and hard to get commodity. Won't last but for now...

Once the market get's flooded or if a swift new technology makes it obsolete worthless to rent, then the game changes. Dragon won't be obsolete any time soon but it's just a matter of when will technology or abundance of Dragons affect the local market.

A GoPro or iPhone or DSLR will eventually offer affordable 4k at decent quality meaning that those low end renters will avoid renting (any camera). Nothing lasts forever. Alexa will get a 4k sooner or later too (maybe at NAB). Till then, Dragon will slowly start eating at Arri's market. Dragon will be a premium till more are out in the local scene. Then perhaps it will be the same price as MX while MX moves towards Scarlet pricing.

Sure it's different around the world, but here in Toronto Canada, that's how I see it.

Jeremy Torrie
03-07-2014, 08:18 PM
The few rentals that do happen are usually based on me helping out some of the camera guys moving their way up and want to have a good tool to play with. Of course if given the option (and budget) they still prefer Alexa...I just don't get it. We all know the great strides Red has made and a commitment to making the camera overall better -from the sensor to colour science and all the rest. I love Red for many reasons. They're smart and they're committed. And the tech just keeps getting better. Hopefully Dragon now will begin to change many people's minds.

Robert Ruffo New
03-07-2014, 09:47 PM
That's a shame Jeremy. I know in Toronto we get a lot of folks that are making Music Videos with Red (and even more using DSLR and hoping to use Red if/when they can afford it). Indie films shoot in DSLR or Red. Only features lean towards Alexa (if not Epic).

I agree with Robert that Dragon here would rent higher then Epic and why not. It is a premium product. It should...at least for the first year while it is a hot and hard to get commodity. Won't last but for now...

Once the market get's flooded or if a swift new technology makes it obsolete worthless to rent, then the game changes. Dragon won't be obsolete any time soon but it's just a matter of when will technology or abundance of Dragons affect the local market.

A GoPro or iPhone or DSLR will eventually offer affordable 4k at decent quality meaning that those low end renters will avoid renting (any camera). Nothing lasts forever. Alexa will get a 4k sooner or later too (maybe at NAB). Till then, Dragon will slowly start eating at Arri's market. Dragon will be a premium till more are out in the local scene. Then perhaps it will be the same price as MX while MX moves towards Scarlet pricing.

Sure it's different around the world, but here in Toronto Canada, that's how I see it.

4K is almost irrelevant, but image quality is not. if someone is stupid enough to shoot with an Iphone through its little plastic lens because the spec says 4K then I;m sure they would be a real pain as a rental client. Besides, even in an imaginary world where resolution were all that mattered (not this world) spec and reality are very different. Most DSLRS for example are barely 650p even though they claim to record to a 1080p codec.

Robert Ruffo New
03-07-2014, 09:52 PM
Zero demand here on the prairies -at least for MB. It's an Alexa market and unfortunately there's been some negative association with Red.

I'd very much like to change that of course since we have two bodies about to get their upgrade. Haven't had an Epic rental aside from our own projects...

Canada is very, very conservative and small markets are also very conservative. Put the two together and you see that kind of sticking only to traditional known brands i.e. Sony or Arri for cameras, and very old fashioned lighting techniques even. I feel for you (Montreal is a bit different, as is Toronto - as they are bigger markets so a little more adventurous.)

Jeremy Torrie
03-08-2014, 06:32 AM
I feel for you (Montreal is a bit different, as is Toronto - as they are bigger markets so a little more adventurous.)

They sure are. I love traveling to both cities. The prairies are absolutely Conservative, which is a shame.

And I know what you're saying about Sony...our first camera was a DNW-A90WS with a divi beta head. Great camera but we couldn't get any work outside of our own unless we had a Sony. Our post system was D-Vision which I absolutely loved and could edit twice as fast as Avid...but get post work on something that DIDN'T say Avid? So then we drop $120,000 on a Media Composer system with proprietary drives...took awhile to get that paid off but eventually did.

Then we went to a Sony 700A...one of the first to do HD. Took forever for people to adopt.

Bottom line was all of this led me to Red with their products and philosophy. I wait for the new chapter!