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Jake Wilganowski
03-02-2014, 11:46 AM
Here's a list of things that I've read recently that have peaked my interest. Please add others...

- Matthews wireless follow focus system
- Tilta wireless follow focus system
- Bright Tangerine mattebox updates, including a tilting module for a updated Strummer
-Ppanasonic GH4 and Varicam, possibly new AF100?
- 2 new Canon Cinema EOS cameras, and a new cinema DSLR
- Kinefinity 6k cam
- Sony said big surprises regarding their current cine cam line
- BeSteadyFour, Movi, and Defy stabilizers
- whatever Red has up their sleeve
- new plasma lighting

WHAT ELSE?!?!

Zeb B
03-02-2014, 11:59 AM
1000 Chinese manufacturers of Movi like products
ditto on jibs / sliders with power heads

(wink wink)

Mark L. Pederson
03-02-2014, 12:01 PM
I hear GoPro is going to launch their 4K motion camera, Sony is going to announce a "significant" price drop on their lineup and ARRI has a new camera without a viable workflow or lens options :)

Terry VerHaar
03-02-2014, 12:08 PM
At the risk of sounding like an overbearing English teacher - not "peaked" but "piqued." (People do this a lot so I thought I'd try and contribute a correction.)

:smiley:

Ken Willinger
03-02-2014, 04:17 PM
Interested in checking out the Panasonic 4K VariCam 35. A little late to the game, but was a big Ikegami user back in the 80', 90's broadcast era, and a bunch of those engineers ended up at Panny... thus their rise in the broadcast world. Will be interesting to see what this offering is and how the workflow will pan out... and the cost.

Mike P.
03-02-2014, 06:49 PM
I heard Black Magic has a FF35, 6k, 16stop camera coming. $5k. Won't be here until 2015 even though they'll say end of summer.

Just kidding.

I'm expecting a lot of cheap 4k and a lot of cheap raw. I would like to see Canon dip into raw officially on their DSLRs... though I think they'll stick with h264 (or successor) just at wannabe 4k (instead of wannabe 1080p.... Magic Lantern will have a field day with it though.)

jake blackstone
03-02-2014, 07:01 PM
ARRI will show off 4K camera with COMPRESSED RAW recording onboard. The next day they are sued by Red, just like Sony for F65 camera, because Red owns compressed RAW patent…

Tarek salman
03-02-2014, 08:09 PM
I think Red maybe will announce 8k camera with over 20 stop DR.

SeanBrown
03-03-2014, 10:46 AM
Where is the REDuser party?

Jacques Mersereau
03-03-2014, 11:18 AM
Rumor - AVID combines Symphony with Protools - at long last (but is it too late?).

Sulekh Suman
03-03-2014, 11:37 AM
ARRI will show off 4K camera with COMPRESSED RAW recording onboard. The next day they are sued by Red, just like Sony for F65 camera, because Red owns compressed RAW patent…

Isn't Black magic offering compressed 4K Raw(Cinema DNG) via a future firmware update? It is currently shipping with 4K Pro Res 422(HQ).

Chad Bonanno
03-03-2014, 11:44 AM
True Lens Company releasing a series of Nikon Rehoused lenses is what I am mostly excited for !

jake blackstone
03-03-2014, 02:00 PM
Isn't Black magic offering compressed 4K Raw(Cinema DNG) via a future firmware update? It is currently shipping with 4K Pro Res 422(HQ).

4K Raw(Cinema DNG) is uncompressed

Sulekh Suman
03-03-2014, 02:45 PM
Jake,

This is from their website.

Balckmagic Cinema Camera 4K Tech Specs
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicproductioncamera4k


Compressed Recording FormatsVisually lossless compressed CinemaDNG RAW with film dynamic range at 3840 x 2160. Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) at 3840 x 2160 and 1920 x 1080 with either film or video dynamic range.

It seems to me that there are several different ways of arriving at compressed RAW(other than what Red has patented). NAB 2014 will bear this out further.

Patrick Tresch
03-03-2014, 02:59 PM
...because Red owns compressed RAW patent…

I also find this problematic for our industry. I would love Red lift this for our sake. I know Red is R3D, and wavelet compressed raw is what made 4k+ revolution possible. It's a clear advantage for Red, too bad they won't le it go. R3D franchise? ;-)

Pat

Sulekh Suman
03-03-2014, 03:08 PM
While I am personally excited about upgrading my Epic to Dragon, the glut on the supply side of 4K+ cameras will continue to depress the rentals market till the real demand for 4K content ramps up.

Just heard about a 6K camera for $3K.
http://news.doddleme.com/equipment/kinefinity-announces-6k-kinemax-camera/
http://news.doddleme.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/KineMAX.png

Elsie N
03-03-2014, 03:09 PM
I also find this problematic for our industry. I would love Red lift this for our sake. I know Red is R3D, and wavelet compressed raw is what made 4k+ revolution possible. It's a clear advantage for Red, too bad they won't le it go. R3D franchise? ;-)

Pat
Pat, shouldn't we be asking the industry giants to make their patents open sourced rather than asking the smaller companies to help out the big guys? That's kind of like asking a common taxpayer to bail out the big banks who mis-manage.

Plus, as a RED customer I think it is in MY best interest that RED hold on to their patents and grow as a company to help keep MY costs down when purchasing RED products.

Patrick Tresch
03-03-2014, 03:18 PM
I don't know what to say. Red is not quite a small shop. I m happy with what Red has done for my work as a DOP. Giving me a great tool (from the One to Dragon) reaching top quality in a indie price and R3D was what made the ride possible. Don't shoot me yet... but this tech shouldn't kept for one company. I'm playing a bit the red guy here but the patent of wavelet compression of raw is also what keeps the other from running.

Pat

Terry VerHaar
03-03-2014, 03:23 PM
ARRI will show off 4K camera with COMPRESSED RAW recording onboard. The next day they are sued by Red, just like Sony for F65 camera, because Red owns compressed RAW patent…


Doesn't it depend on the type of compression and the type of raw? Hard to imagine they "own" the whole gamut of "compressed raw." But stranger things have happened, I guess. :huh:

Patrick Tresch
03-03-2014, 03:31 PM
I don't know the exact patent content bu I think it's wavelet compression of Raw...

How is Cineform Raw compared to R3D?

Pat

jake blackstone
03-03-2014, 03:33 PM
Doesn't it depend on the type of compression and the type of raw? Hard to imagine they "own" the whole gamut of "compressed raw." But stranger things have happened, I guess. :huh:

I'm not a patent attorney. May be someone, who had read the actual patent can enlighten us. All I know, that Red vs Sony lawsuit is coming up. Actually, I don't even know that. All I know, that it had been filed.

jake blackstone
03-03-2014, 03:38 PM
Jake,

This is from their website.

Balckmagic Cinema Camera 4K Tech Specs
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicproductioncamera4k



It seems to me that there are several different ways of arriving at compressed RAW(other than what Red has patented). NAB 2014 will bear this out further.

BMD calls it "visually lossless compressed CinemaDNG RAW". It's mostly semantics and not the same as compressed. For example LOG-like encoded image can be interpreted as compressed and visually lossless. That is one of the reasons why Kodak invented Cineon and why ARRI uses Log-C with Prores.

Matt Ryan
03-03-2014, 03:54 PM
What if Arri announces a 4K camera with compressed RAW licensed from RED.... Now that would be interesting. Imagine a 4K Alexa with R3D's...

Sulekh Suman
03-03-2014, 04:20 PM
Great. So BMD is using semantics to it's own disadvantage by calling uncompressed RAW(Visually Lossless Compressed DNG RAW). Doesn't make sense to me but I will take your word for it. I don't see how Log implementation(Cineon or Log C) on Compressed Pro Res has anything to do with Compressed Raw(wavelet or through some other algorithm) which will be lossy no matter what BMD has to say about it.

There is substantial ambivalence around Redcode itself. It doesn't specify at what compression does the RED RAW become 12bit.

I am sure there is a valid reason why they don't call 2.5K Cinema Camera Raw: Visually Lossless Compressed.

Mike P.
03-03-2014, 04:30 PM
I hope they have a fully working model of the KineMax at NAB... There's something about renders that makes me think "years" not "months" away...

ALSO, starting with 5.1.34, there's been an EUA or License or something on the cameras... Jarred said "more about it at NAB", but I've got no idea what it could be.

Matt Ryan
03-03-2014, 04:35 PM
I hope they have a fully working model of the KineMax at NAB... There's something about renders that makes me think "years" not "months" away...

ALSO, starting with 5.1.34, there's been an EUA or License or something on the cameras... Jarred said "more about it at NAB", but I've got no idea what it could be.

ipad/iphone control of the camera. Create looks, adjust settings, adjust curves, etc from an ipad.

Mike P.
03-03-2014, 04:39 PM
I'd want that... But how/why would that require a software license on the camera? (or are you just guessing based on it being a software thing?)

OH MAN, just thought of another hopeful -- REDmote Pro... Am I right, or what?

Matt Ryan
03-03-2014, 04:50 PM
I'd want that... But how/why would that require a software license on the camera? (or are you just guessing based on it being a software thing?)

OH MAN, just thought of another hopeful -- REDmote Pro... Am I right, or what?

That's been hinted at for a while.

The license agreement is most likely preventing others from hacking the system and creating their own app. That would make sense to me.

Erich Roland
03-03-2014, 04:55 PM
True Lens Company releasing a series of Nikon Rehoused lenses is what I am mostly excited for !

We bought the 80-200 TLS, they did an awesome job. Best rehouse Ive ever seen.

Tough to tell the diff between this lens and the Ziess 70-200 at twice the price.

Adam Johnson
03-04-2014, 01:58 AM
KineMax is not going to cost $3k...that's the initial deposit. Probably close to $20k I bet.

ERIC PECK
03-04-2014, 02:04 AM
I'm not a patent attorney. May be someone, who had read the actual patent can enlighten us. All I know, that Red vs Sony lawsuit is coming up. Actually, I don't even know that. All I know, that it had been filed.


In February of 2013, Red filed for an injunction against Sony, claiming that several of its new CineAlta products, particularly the 4K-capable F65, infringed on patents the company held. They requested that Sony not only be forced to stop selling the cameras, but that they also be destroyed as well.[34] Sony filed a countersuit against Red in April of 2013, alleging that Red's entire product line infringed on Sony patents. In July 2013, both parties filed jointly for dismissal, and as of July 20, 2013, the case is closed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company#Lawsuits

jake blackstone
03-04-2014, 12:50 PM
Great. I don't see how Log implementation(Cineon or Log C) on Compressed Pro Res has anything to do with Compressed Raw(wavelet or through some other algorithm) which will be lossy no matter what BMD has to say about it.



If I remember correctly, at the time of very limited available disc data rates and space considerations, Kodak implemented Cineon as means of lossless compression in order to express 12 bit of color depth in a 10 bit container, therefore losslessy compressing the image.
The same goes for ARRI Prores- 12 bit of Log-C Prores loosely equivalent to 14 bit of video encoded image. It's not quite the 16 bit of RAW recording, but it's close enough.

Matt Ryan
03-04-2014, 12:52 PM
Sony is announcing a FF 4K dslr type camera to compete with the 1DC. It apparently will have quality equal to the F55. We shall see.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/4k-ff-camera-with-fz-mount-and-a-mount-adapter/

Adam Johnson
03-04-2014, 10:16 PM
That would be badass.



Sony is announcing a FF 4K dslr type camera to compete with the 1DC. It apparently will have quality equal to the F55. We shall see.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/4k-ff-camera-with-fz-mount-and-a-mount-adapter/

Peter Moretti
03-05-2014, 03:04 PM
In February of 2013, Red filed for an injunction against Sony, claiming that several of its new CineAlta products, particularly the 4K-capable F65, infringed on patents the company held. They requested that Sony not only be forced to stop selling the cameras, but that they also be destroyed as well.[34] Sony filed a countersuit against Red in April of 2013, alleging that Red's entire product line infringed on Sony patents. In July 2013, both parties filed jointly for dismissal, and as of July 20, 2013, the case is closed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company#Lawsuits

Wow, that was a waste of everyone's time and Red's reputation. Suing Sony and requesting that all cameras out in the field be destroyed left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

Elsie N
03-05-2014, 03:20 PM
Wow, that was a waste of everyone's time and Red's reputation. Suing Sony and requesting that all cameras out in the field be destroyed left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

On the other hand, RED was immediately perceived as an avante garde company that Giant old gaurd companies like Sony have to stoop to copy from in order to try and stay on par.

I don't think Jannard worries about any taste left in the mouths of people with no taste. He has a Dragon to his credit.

Plus I think the suit, although dropped, sent a warning to any others who might be tempted to copy RED intellectual property. RED will defend its patents.

Dunkan Wolf
03-06-2014, 04:10 PM
On the other hand, RED was immediately perceived as an avante garde company that Giant old gaurd companies like Sony have to stoop to copy from in order to try and stay on par.

I don't think Jannard worries about any taste left in the mouths of people with no taste. He has a Dragon to his credit.

Plus I think the suit, although dropped, sent a warning to any others who might be tempted to copy RED intellectual property. RED will defend its patents.

Reds patent is right up there with 'rounded corners'. No wonder they didnt go through with their lawsuit. its ridiculous.

Antony Newman
03-06-2014, 04:38 PM
If you don't fight for every patent violation - you could forfeit your future chance of enforcing it.

There may have therefore have been an unintentional reciprocal utility in their respective actions.

AJ

Elsie N
03-06-2014, 04:45 PM
If you don't fight for every patent violation - you could forfeit your future chance of enforcing it.

There may have therefore have been an unintentional reciprocal utility in their respective actions.

AJ

Excellent point. Both companies' true target may be Chinese knock offs.

Zack Birlew
03-07-2014, 10:35 AM
Although not a rumor, I'm hoping to see more action on the 4K production monitor front. TVLogic and a couple of other companies had some solutions last year in the 30"-55" range but they weren't exactly 100% color correction monitors per se, so hopefully there will be some new surprises that will be able to replace my 21" 1080p JVC.

Peter Moretti
03-07-2014, 03:46 PM
On the other hand, RED was immediately perceived as an avante garde company that Giant old gaurd companies like Sony have to stoop to copy from in order to try and stay on par.

I don't think Jannard worries about any taste left in the mouths of people with no taste. He has a Dragon to his credit.

Plus I think the suit, although dropped, sent a warning to any others who might be tempted to copy RED intellectual property. RED will defend its patents.

Elsie, I respectfully disagree. Suing Sony over compressed 4K RAW is one thing. It seemed odd, overzealous, and I don't want Red to own >1080 RAW compression. But okay, chalk it up to "Jim being Jim" or whatever. (Kind of like "Manny being Manny" to use a US baseball analogy... you take the quirks b/c the player is SO BRILLIANT).

But asking for all the F65/55/5's to be destroyed is something entirely different. A lot of people in this industry have grown up using Sony gear, so the idea that Red thinks it can ask for it be destroyed really pissed a lot of people off. A lot of rental houses and production co's have serious $$ invested in that equipment.

To use another baseball analogy, this was like when Alex Rodriguez decided to sue the Players' Association. That went too far, and eventually both sides dropped their suits.

Finally, common sense told us that if Sony dug deeply enough they'd find Sony patents that Red was infringing upon, so the whole ordeal made Red seem a bit unhinged. Just telling what I heard in the conversation at the time.

I personally think that Jim catches way too much crap, but suing Sony was a bad move, IMHO.

And anyway, all of this ancient history in camera years, LOL!

Cagle Johnson
03-07-2014, 04:08 PM
so.....how about them rumors....
lol
I'm excited to see what Sony will be pricing their new stuff at. I wish I could afford a RED, but atm it's hopes and dreams. The FS-700 (mainly for frame rates) has had my interest piqued but I don't want to pick one up knowing NAB is around the corner with a high possibility of price drops and new equipment being released.

Mike Garrick
03-07-2014, 04:19 PM
Isn't BMC releasing a "full frame" varient of their cameras this year ?

Elsie N
03-07-2014, 04:51 PM
Elsie, I respectfully disagree. Suing Sony over compressed 4K RAW is one thing. It seemed odd, overzealous, and I don't want Red to own >1080 RAW compression. But okay, chalk it up to "Jim being Jim" or whatever. (Kind of like "Manny being Manny" to use a US baseball analogy... you take the quirks b/c the player is SO BRILLIANT).

But asking for all the F65/55/5's to be destroyed is something entirely different. A lot of people in this industry have grown up using Sony gear, so the idea that Red thinks it can ask for it be destroyed really pissed a lot of people off. A lot of rental houses and production co's have serious $$ invested in that equipment.

To use another baseball analogy, this was like when Alex Rodriguez decided to sue the Players' Association. That went too far, and eventually both sides dropped their suits.

Finally, common sense told us that if Sony dug deeply enough they'd find Sony patents that Red was infringing upon, so the whole ordeal made Red seem a bit unhinged. Just telling what I head in the conversation at the time.

I personally think that Jim catches way too much crap, but suing Sony was a bad move, IMHO.

And anyway, all of this ancient history in camera years, LOL!

Peter, I think you may be looking at the language of the lawsuit from the viewpoint of someone who grew up using Sony gear. That is, from your personal perspective.

In this case, I am looking at the lawsuit from the perspective of a Master Adman. Take for instance your own focus on the point of asking Sony to destroy all those cameras. It created a lot of buzz but I don't think anyone ever really thought that was going to happen.

And as for the compressed 4k RAW part of the suit, Sony has been trying to insinuate they are the first 4k company. The industry has now been reminded that RED has been the leader in 4k and is the real driving force behind moving to 4k.

As for your baseball analogies (like)... Manny being Manny is certainly appropriate because I read just today that Manny doesn't see himself as retired, and wants to return to Major League Baseball. But please! do not analagate (new word?) between Alex Rodriquez and Jim Jannard. That just offends ones sensibilities.

As you are someone who has been immersed in the culture of RED for some time now, I think you are close but not quite to the point of giving yourself over to the RED side.

Sony is sunny but RED can see in the dark (side'-)

Brian Merlen
03-07-2014, 07:11 PM
wasn't the Dalsa the real first 4k camera lol? regardless i think the sony marketing is hogwash. its like doublespeak over there, they might as well say they invented the camera, in all its various aspect ratios and encoding mediums...

Cagle Johnson
03-07-2014, 07:14 PM
Isn't there a "RED vs xxxx" thread already?

Marc Wielage
03-07-2014, 07:44 PM
ARRI will show off 4K camera with COMPRESSED RAW recording onboard. The next day they are sued by Red, just like Sony for F65 camera, because Red owns compressed RAW patent…
If they make it a separate box (like Codex), and it records a variant of Raw, I'm not sure if Red can sue. Even in Sony's case, my understanding is that all the lawsuits were settled. And in Red's favor, I wouldn't say that the F65 became a big success.

This site claims that 20 new 4K cameras will be introduced at NAB, but I think it's just a guess:

http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/976-20-new-4k-cameras-to-arrive-before-nab-2014

The problem is, if you have a $600 smartphone that "technically" shoots 4K, is it really 4K? At what point is a signal stepped on so hard with compression, it's not really 4K in terms of picture quality?

I'm curious how many serious (say, over-$20K) 4K cameras will be introduced. Note that Arri has been quiet except for the Amira, and Panavision has been dead quiet. It'd be interesting if Sony came out with an "inbetween" camera that wasn't quite as deluxe as the F55, but more elaborate than the F5 -- call it an "F45."


If I remember correctly, at the time of very limited available disc data rates and space considerations, Kodak implemented Cineon as means of lossless compression in order to express 12 bit of color depth in a 10 bit container, therefore losslessy compressing the image.
The same goes for ARRI Prores- 12 bit of Log-C Prores loosely equivalent to 14 bit of video encoded image. It's not quite the 16 bit of RAW recording, but it's close enough.
I think the fact that Red used JPEG2000 was enough to get them a patent, plus it was a combined system that incorporated camera, compression, Raw, metadata, and modified lossy JPEG2000 recording. The moment you use an external box -- particularly one made by somebody else -- I think there's no infringement.

BTW: note that Glenn Kennel, who was the chief Kodak scientist that headed up the Cineon team, is now president & CEO of Arri USA. Interesting, eh? Glenn's a very, very bright guy. His 2006 book on Color and Mastering for Digital Cinema was one of the first books about D.I.'s and D-Cinema, and he clearly has a good handle on the theory as well as the practical application of this stuff.

It'd be very interesting to see the settlement papers between Sony and Red. Sony has a ton of patents they haven't even used yet, so they're clearly a very R&D-oriented company -- despite their difficult financial situation.

Jack Cooper
03-07-2014, 10:59 PM
Elsie, I respectfully disagree. Suing Sony over compressed 4K RAW is one thing. It seemed odd, overzealous, and I don't want Red to own >1080 RAW compression. But okay, chalk it up to "Jim being Jim" or whatever. (Kind of like "Manny being Manny" to use a US baseball analogy... you take the quirks b/c the player is SO BRILLIANT).

But asking for all the F65/55/5's to be destroyed is something entirely different. A lot of people in this industry have grown up using Sony gear, so the idea that Red thinks it can ask for it be destroyed really pissed a lot of people off. A lot of rental houses and production co's have serious $$ invested in that equipment.

To use another baseball analogy, this was like when Alex Rodriguez decided to sue the Players' Association. That went too far, and eventually both sides dropped their suits.

Finally, common sense told us that if Sony dug deeply enough they'd find Sony patents that Red was infringing upon, so the whole ordeal made Red seem a bit unhinged. Just telling what I heard in the conversation at the time.

I personally think that Jim catches way too much crap, but suing Sony was a bad move, IMHO.

And anyway, all of this ancient history in camera years, LOL!

The suit was quietly dismissed by both parties this past summer...

http://ipinsiders.com/profiles/blogs/sony-red-end-patent-dispute#.Uxqv_4XNg_c

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company#Lawsuits

Peter Moretti
03-07-2014, 11:16 PM
Hence my A-Rod analogy that Elsie didn't like. :nono:

Adam Johnson
03-08-2014, 02:31 AM
Yup I agree, just figured I'd share a fun geeky tidbit I received ;)

Marc Wielage
03-09-2014, 12:37 AM
Not saying it isn't happening but Panavision announced this back in 2012 and never came to fruition. They announced the prototype would be available in 6 months. 2 years later and no prototype that I know of.
And Panavision is not exhibiting at NAB as far as I can see:

http://nab14.mapyourshow.com/5_0/exhibitor_results.cfm?type=term&term=panavision&searchin=exh

Mike 'Fireman' Ross
03-09-2014, 01:41 AM
If you don't fight for every patent violation - you could forfeit your future chance of enforcing it.

AJ

That's definitely true of trademarks. Sue or lose it.

I'm reasonably certain it's not true of patents. Reason I believe this is my background in computing. IBM own a vast number of computer-related patents. A good few years ago, they made a policy decision to 'play nice' with the open source world; the Linux guys etc. - they wanted to encourage them. They announced that, as a matter of policy, they would never seek to enforce any of their patents against open-source software. They obviously couldn't do that if it meant they couldn't still enforce them against anyone else.

As for the business of destroying cameras, that's well out of order. When this story was first discussed here, I asked if RDC would give an undertaking they would only go after Sony, and not pursue camera owners or operators, patent troll style, for alleged infringement. There was no response...

Mike

Meryem Ersoz
03-09-2014, 09:37 AM
It only took about 17 posts before this thread went off the rails completely....

what I would like to see is a 4K tablet. Panasonic had a very nice Windows based working prototype for one last year. unfortunately, the speculative retail price was $5-$7K. let's see if they show up with any new advancements in this product for 2014.

But I bet the first company to introduce one of these sells quite a ton of them.

Mark L. Pederson
03-09-2014, 09:55 AM
Not sure if it will be announced at NAB...haven't heard that it will or anything. But I have heard from one of the best authorities in the business who has won Academy Awards and is helping Pany with the design, etc. that the Panavision 70mm Digital Cinema Camera is going to simply blow every camera out of the water and will set the standard as top theatrical acquisition.

Well .... every year I hear that Panavision's new camera (was originally 3 new cameras) is going to "blow every camera out of the water". IMO PV should focus 100% on making lenses. Leave the sensor & camera tech to RED & ARRI.

I have, on very good authority, that there is a working 65mm ARRI camera with a 6K sensor. Uncompressed 6K to external recorder from Codex. I'm sure it will cost a bit more than AMIRA :)

While I'm excited to see a larger sensor from RED - gotta say - Dragon sensor is off the charts amazing - and there are MANY lens options for creating 6K content on Dragon with standard PL mount for "large venue - massive screen digital projection".

Cagle Johnson
03-09-2014, 03:02 PM
It only took about 17 posts before this thread went off the rails completely....

what I would like to see is a 4K tablet. Panasonic had a very nice Windows based working prototype for one last year. unfortunately, the speculative retail price was $5-$7K. let's see if they show up with any new advancements in this product for 2014.

But I bet the first company to introduce one of these sells quite a ton of them.

I know right? lol


I wanna go so bad! Never been and I'd love to see all the new gear getting debuted and talked about. Maybe even catch a good deal if possible. :)

Brian Merlen
03-09-2014, 03:41 PM
wow, that sounds awesome!


Well .... every year I hear that Panavision's new camera (was originally 3 new cameras) is going to "blow every camera out of the water". IMO PV should focus 100% on making lenses. Leave the sensor & camera tech to RED & ARRI.

I have, on very good authority, that there is a working 65mm ARRI camera with a 6K sensor. Uncompressed 6K to external recorder from Codex. I'm sure it will cost a bit more than AMIRA :)

While I'm excited to see a larger sensor from RED - gotta say - Dragon sensor is off the charts amazing - and there are MANY lens options for creating 6K content on Dragon with standard PL mount for "large venue - massive screen digital projection".

jake blackstone
03-09-2014, 05:26 PM
It only took about 17 posts before this thread went off the rails completely....

what I would like to see is a 4K tablet. Panasonic had a very nice Windows based working prototype for one last year. unfortunately, the speculative retail price was $5-$7K. let's see if they show up with any new advancements in this product for 2014.

But I bet the first company to introduce one of these sells quite a ton of them.

Obviously, I was first who had mentioned the possibility of the lawsuit. On the face of it, it seems, that my post was a bit flippant and frankly, in a way it was. What got immediately lost in the conversation is the reason I brought this subject up in the first place. So, I'd like to explain my original post. Being, that this is Reduser, it seems, that high resolution of the camera is the most important consideration. I wanted to give a bit of a wider perspective rather than concentrate on just an acquisition of a high resolution image. I believe, right now, just about every camera and sensor manufacturer has technologies with resolution of 4k and up ready to go. So, at this point, there are three existing ways of handling those images- uncompressed RAW (ARRIRAW, Cinema DNG, DPX, etc), compressed debayered (Prores, AVC, H264 etc) and compressed RAW (R3D, SONY SR). For obvious reasons the first two have certain issues, which can't be easily addressed. It seems, compressed RAW is the only way to properly handle recorded material while giving a fighting chance for post to be able to process it in a reasonable matter. And that is all I was trying to say. I think it is healthy to discuss all implications of different recording and processing technics without deteriorating it into the Red vs the world…

Mark L. Pederson
03-09-2014, 05:58 PM
It seems, compressed RAW is the only way to properly handle recorded material while giving a fighting chance for post to be able to process it in a reasonable matter. And that is all I was trying to say. I think it is healthy to discuss all implications of different recording and processing technics without deteriorating it into the Red vs the world…

I remember VERY clearly - when people laughed at compressed RAW. Funny how things change -

Tarek salman
03-09-2014, 06:16 PM
I just want to know how you come up this.are you really comparing red to blackmagic.

Elsie N
03-09-2014, 06:30 PM
...

I have, on very good authority, that there is a working 65mm ARRI camera with a 6K sensor. Uncompressed 6K to external recorder from Codex. I'm sure it will cost a bit more than AMIRA :)

...[/B]

Since this is a rumors and whispers thread, I'm gonna guess such a camera's cost would equal the cost of about 5 Dragons... so Dragon would still win the resolution contest by extrapolation, 30k to 6k. '-)

Jake Wilganowski
03-09-2014, 07:05 PM
Have you all heard about the little f55 dslr? I think this is really interesting. Also, we haven't really heard a peep from RED, what's going on? Something big? Do you think they would ever get in the panel display business?

Matt Ryan
03-09-2014, 08:21 PM
Have you all heard about the little f55 dslr? I think this is really interesting. Also, we haven't really heard a peep from RED, what's going on? Something big? Do you think they would ever get in the panel display business?

I mentioned it earlier in this thread.. I hope RED surprises us with some cool updates. Hope they don't get into panels since they still haven't delivered a projector.


Sony is announcing a FF 4K dslr type camera to compete with the 1DC. It apparently will have quality equal to the F55. We shall see.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/4k-ff-camera-with-fz-mount-and-a-mount-adapter/

Mike P.
03-09-2014, 09:22 PM
Full frame (or 65mm) is far more lucrative than more resolution... Just sayin'.

Vincent Thomas
03-10-2014, 01:54 PM
What's the latest new about Scarlet and the Dragon sensor Upgrade and Specs we could expect?

Haven't been following the latest news, would someone give me a quick brief to see what will happen and when, at what price?

Thanks

vince*

__________________________________________________ ______________
Vincent Thomas
Creative Art Director & VFX supervisor / Senior Lighter & DigiMatte Painter / Concept Designer
http://fr.linkedin.com/in/vincentthomas
http://www.stranger-than-paradise.book.fr/

Matt Ryan
03-10-2014, 01:56 PM
What's the latest new about Scarlet and the Dragon sensor Upgrade and Specs we could expect?

Haven't been following the latest news, would someone give me a quick brief to see what will happen and when, at what price?

Thanks

vince*

__________________________________________________ ______________
Vincent Thomas
Creative Art Director & VFX supervisor / Senior Lighter & DigiMatte Painter / Concept Designer
http://fr.linkedin.com/in/vincentthomas
http://www.stranger-than-paradise.book.fr/

No news yet. My guess is it won't even start to happen until next year. Epic Dragon has to catch up on upgrades and amass a large inventory before the Scarlet is even started.

Lawrence Bansbach
03-11-2014, 09:03 PM
Doesn't it depend on the type of compression and the type of raw? Hard to imagine they "own" the whole gamut of "compressed raw." But stranger things have happened, I guess. :huh:
There's also CineForm RAW, which is compressed. So, no, Red doesn't "own" compressed raw.

Carey Lee Coffey
03-13-2014, 07:20 AM
Wow, these years are flying by. It seems like I live my life from NAB to NAB.

Peter Moretti
03-13-2014, 11:01 PM
Sony will be adding Prores and DNxHD:

http://community.sony.com/t5/F5-F55/Announcing-ProRes-and-DNxHD-support-for-both-F5-and-F55/m-p/293988#U293988

Will Keir
03-15-2014, 01:28 AM
I'm waiting for that 4k Monitor good enough for color correction applications.

Elsie N
03-15-2014, 07:41 AM
Not sure if this is a real rumor or something I dreamed, but in my rumor/dream I saw a Laser Projector module for the Dragon that worked off camera playback. You could play unedited R3D footage or edit and reload as .RED footage onto a mini-mag for silver screen exhibition... accomplished simply by loading a "playback" firmware.

Patrick Tresch
03-15-2014, 09:38 AM
Not sure if this is a real rumor or something I dreamed, but in my rumor/dream I saw a Laser Projector module for the Dragon that worked off camera playback. You could play unedited R3D footage or edit and reload as .RED footage onto a mini-mag for silver screen exhibition... accomplished simply by loading a "playback" firmware.

You mean the Pleograph (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleograph)?

Pat

Elsie N
03-15-2014, 09:46 AM
You mean the Pleograph (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleograph)?

Pat

YES!!!! '-)

Elizabeth Lowrey
03-16-2014, 09:19 PM
Don't know whether this question will get a nibble in this thread, but I'll try here instead of starting a new one.

I'm very close to committing to going to NAB for the first time and am considering whether to rent a car. I won't be staying in one of the official NAB hotels that offers free shuttle service, and my hotel will be well beyond walking distance. But if it's going to be impractical to try to park within a quarter of a mile of the venue (the official NAB site says there is "extremely limited parking" at the convention center), I might just as well not rent a car and rely on cabs, buses, and airport shuttles. I searched "parking" on a Las Vegas google map and that brought up some icons (none really close), but it's difficult to know without having ever been to the conference whether the amount of available parking is just way below demand. I don't want to spend $25-$30 bucks a day on car rental (plus another $10 or more on parking) only to have to still walk 3/4ths of a mile each way to the venue. So any practical advise from NAB veterans would be much appreciated!

Dr. Sassi
03-16-2014, 09:48 PM
We always use the MonoRail,
http://www.lvmonorail.com

I'm not certain where you will stay, but it's an option to consider.


Don't know whether this question will get a nibble in this thread, but I'll try here instead of starting a new one.

I'm very close to committing to going to NAB for the first time and am considering whether to rent a car. I won't be staying in one of the official NAB hotels that offers free shuttle service, and my hotel will be well beyond walking distance. But if it's going to be impractical to try to park within a quarter of a mile of the venue (the official NAB site says there is "extremely limited parking" at the convention center), I might just as well not rent a car and rely on cabs, buses, and airport shuttles. I searched "parking" on a Las Vegas google map and that brought up some icons (none really close), but it's difficult to know without having ever been to the conference whether the amount of available parking is just way below demand. I don't want to spend $25-$30 bucks a day on car rental (plus another $10 or more on parking) only to have to still walk 3/4ths of a mile each way to the venue. So any practical advise from NAB veterans would be much appreciated!

rick youck
03-16-2014, 11:27 PM
Seems Sunday night's NAB official party at pure is sponsored by red.....

http://www.nabshow.com/2014/sessions/marquee-events/official-afterparties/

Elizabeth Lowrey
03-17-2014, 01:51 AM
Thanks, Dr. Sassi, for the monorail tip. Didn't realize that was an option. I don't think it will work for me based on where I'm staying, but it's nice to know in case I can use it for getting around to other locations, perhaps another hotel if I wind up meeting a fellow REDUser for some reason or other.

Regarding the NAB party, I saw that tonight myself and wondered if this is the closest thing this year's NAB will have to a REDUser party. I've never been previous years when RED hosted those events. So I'm wondering how many REDUsers will be going to this thing?

Tom Greenberg
03-17-2014, 08:43 AM
Don't know whether this question will get a nibble in this thread, but I'll try here instead of starting a new one.

I'm very close to committing to going to NAB for the first time and am considering whether to rent a car. I won't be staying in one of the official NAB hotels that offers free shuttle service, and my hotel will be well beyond walking distance. But if it's going to be impractical to try to park within a quarter of a mile of the venue (the official NAB site says there is "extremely limited parking" at the convention center), I might just as well not rent a car and rely on cabs, buses, and airport shuttles. I searched "parking" on a Las Vegas google map and that brought up some icons (none really close), but it's difficult to know without having ever been to the conference whether the amount of available parking is just way below demand. I don't want to spend $25-$30 bucks a day on car rental (plus another $10 or more on parking) only to have to still walk 3/4ths of a mile each way to the venue. So any practical advise from NAB veterans would be much appreciated!
I would not bother to rent a car, as you mentioned, there is nowhere to park near the Convention Center. The monorail is a great way to get around the Strip, shuttle buses run constantly, and cabs are plentiful and relatively affordable. Cabs have special access lanes into the Convention Center for pickup and drop off so they are very convenient if you don't mind spending the $$.

Hope that helps...
Tom

Zeb B
03-17-2014, 08:59 AM
(snip) So I'm wondering how many REDUsers will be going to this thing?

Free booze = they'll be there

Phil Bates
03-17-2014, 09:27 AM
Elizabeth,
Although we have exhibited for many years, and thus had special parking, there was always parking available across the street from the Convention Center if you arrive a half hour or so before the doors opened.

Phil

Elizabeth Lowrey
03-17-2014, 11:32 AM
Elizabeth,
Although we have exhibited for many years, and thus had special parking, there was always parking available across the street from the Convention Center if you arrive a half hour or so before the doors opened.

Phil

That's very doable. I wouldn't want to have to arrive 2-3 hours before, but 30 minutes I can swing.

Even though I'm mainly going for the exhibits (and one workshop on Monday), I decided to fly out on Saturday (and thus have all of Sunday in Vegas) because it was actually CHEAPER to do it that way (at least through Xpedia, where I normally book my travel). Even looking up airline fares on the actual airline websites, tickets simply seemed to be more expensive if they involve Sunday travel, so even with an extra hotel day, I'm saving about $70 bucks by arriving on Saturday evening.

But that means I'd REALLY like to have a car for Sunday, as I'm not entirely sure what I'll do -- maybe even drive to the Grand Canyon or one of the closer national parks. My only fear was I'd get the thing and then have nowhere to park for the convention itself. So this is making me feel a little bit better about renting.

Thanks to all for offering their perspectives.:-)

Zeke Burgess
03-17-2014, 12:10 PM
That's very doable. I wouldn't want to have to arrive 2-3 hours before, but 30 minutes I can swing.

Even though I'm mainly going for the exhibits (and one workshop on Monday), I decided to fly out on Saturday (and thus have all of Sunday in Vegas) because it was actually CHEAPER to do it that way (at least through Xpedia, where I normally book my travel). Even looking up airline fares on the actual airline websites, tickets simply seemed to be more expensive if they involve Sunday travel, so even with an extra hotel day, I'm saving about $70 bucks by arriving on Saturday evening.

But that means I'd REALLY like to have a car for Sunday, as I'm not entirely sure what I'll do -- maybe even drive to the Grand Canyon or one of the closer national parks. My only fear was I'd get the thing and then have nowhere to park for the convention itself. So this is making me feel a little bit better about renting.

Thanks to all for offering their perspectives.:-)

IIRC, parking at the convention hall is $10. You could also park for free at pretty much any hotel on the strip and take a shuttle to the convention hall. Also, make use of valet at the hotels, it'll just cost you a tip.

Steve Das
03-17-2014, 01:05 PM
Also, make use of valet at the hotels, it'll just cost you a tip.

Unless the valets put a dent in your car as they are often apt too...especially if you have a large or
unusual to drive vehicle.

Jake Wilganowski
03-19-2014, 08:59 AM
This is interesting:
http://cinescopophilia.com/transvideo-starlitehd-on-board-3g-sdi-field-monitor-is-the-size-of-a-smartphone/

Mike P.
03-19-2014, 10:12 AM
It's a H264 recorder too? I wonder how much it costs?

Mark L. Pederson
03-19-2014, 12:48 PM
This is interesting:
http://cinescopophilia.com/transvideo-starlitehd-on-board-3g-sdi-field-monitor-is-the-size-of-a-smartphone/
Want!

Mark L. Pederson
03-19-2014, 12:50 PM
Unconfirmed rumor - SoundDevices will debut new super small 4K ProRes recorder.

Domenic Barbero
03-19-2014, 12:55 PM
Unconfirmed rumor - SoundDevices will debut new super small 4K ProRes recorder.

Well this would be very very interesting. So would you need 6g-SDI to get that signal to it? is there a way to make that happen with current RED setup? probably not eh?

Jake Wilganowski
03-19-2014, 02:00 PM
Or 2 3G sdi, sounds like we need a new red module

Mikey Grigoryan
03-19-2014, 08:38 PM
8k. HAHAHA! this generation's super hunger and expectation of technology and its super fast moving paste is insane.

Zeb B
03-19-2014, 10:37 PM
List things of interest here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?114220-Must-See-at-NAB-2014!!&p=1340454&viewfull=1#post1340454

Dan Kanes
03-20-2014, 05:31 PM
Paralinx is giving away free NAB Exhibit hall passes, in case anyone forgot to register, and needs a free boost to push them over the edge to attending! I have a feeling this will be a NAB not to miss...

http://www.paralinx.net/blog/2014/2/20/free-pass-to-nab-2014-in-las-vegas-come-visit-paralinx-at-booths-c7439-oe1346

David Haves
03-21-2014, 10:34 AM
IIRC, parking at the convention hall is $10. You could also park for free at pretty much any hotel on the strip and take a shuttle to the convention hall. Also, make use of valet at the hotels, it'll just cost you a tip.

Correct.

Mikey Grigoryan
03-26-2014, 03:10 PM
"Hi Mikey,


Thank you for interest on Kine Cinemas.


Regarding to the preorder of KineMAX 6K model, you need to read the terms of pre-order at first. The USD 3999 is just deposit for first 100 unit, not the price of KineMAX. " -Kinefinity Sales Team
:banghead:

But wait..

"Hi Mikey,


For the full price, it will be announced during NAB. Simple guess is that price is around Scarlet.


Keep in Touch." -Kinefinity Sales Team
:yikes:

Humm.. A 6K camera for the price of a Scarlet..(Dragon or:nonod: scarlet) how interesting. I think I'll Waite on purchasing a scarlet till NAB see what transpires.

Shawn Nelson
03-27-2014, 01:33 AM
What about a 'catch up' NAB wherein every single company just ships what they announced the previous year? ;-) :nads:

Mikey Grigoryan
03-27-2014, 04:28 AM
Lol starting with red rock micro's wireless follow focus iOS system. It's been almost 3 NAB years

Michael Jarvis
03-27-2014, 07:00 AM
Lol starting with red rock micro's wireless follow focus iOS system. It's been almost 3 NAB years


Yea....they based years of development that is all contingent on a consumer product from another company that changes its design every few years. Not exactly the best idea. What happens when the iPhone 6 has a few mm discrepancy in its size? Well...time for all the customers who brought the unit, after waiting years, to require a new housing....or an adapter system that will last another 360 days. Just seems a bit finicky. Probably better off losing any type of iPhone mounting system and going straight with a wireless network. I control wireless DMX with my phone at all kinds of events, I can't imagine it be completely impossible to setup a network and just do everything straight from the UI on the iPhone. Not an organic method by any stretch of the word...but it would fulfill a purpose.

Marc Wielage
03-27-2014, 06:55 PM
What about a 'catch up' NAB wherein every single company just ships what they announced the previous year?
Funniest line I've read all week!

Zeb B
03-27-2014, 07:00 PM
What about a 'catch up' NAB wherein every single company just ships what they announced the previous year? ;-) :nads:

This is actually what is the current state of affairs. Some companies are lucky to ship their promises by the following year. For those buyers who say: "I'm going to see what's introduced at NAB to decide what to buy for a project in May" . . . hasn't been paying attention.

Bob Gundu
03-27-2014, 11:07 PM
I remember when Apple decided to stop attending trade shows as people expected it to coincide with product updates. People expected something at every Macworld, but now they decide on their own keynote to make announcements. Funny thing is, Red doesn't use the Booth at NAB to make any announcements either. They release info on Reduser late night during the show and many attendees actually at the show can easily miss out on news while those at home close to an internet connection found out things in real time.

Raphael Madeira
03-28-2014, 02:16 AM
I kind of get the feeling RED is gonna announce the sale of BT Scarlets, all the Scarlets traded for Epic upgrades gotta go somewhere after all.

Filip Orlandic
03-28-2014, 03:16 AM
I am afraid that RED is doomed... :(

I don't understand how RED makes profit with the current business.

Billy Jim
03-28-2014, 03:26 AM
GoPro is rumored to announce several new accessories this weekend:
a new blackout housing, gooseneck, red dive & magenta filters, battery pack and also a new 3D dual case for the Hero 3/3+ system.

according to http://photorumors.com/2014/03/28/new-gopro-accessories-rumored-to-be-announced-this-weekend/

Matt Gottshalk
03-28-2014, 07:38 AM
New 4k Varicam photos:

http://panasonicprovideo.tumblr.com/post/80965679215/varicam-modularity

https://31.media.tumblr.com/814bbc182facad6730ac65096d7981a9/tumblr_inline_n355rtA8Cx1qlgpo8.jpg

Billy Jim
03-28-2014, 06:35 PM
Canon C200 + C400 rumor

http://www.eoshd.com/content/12310/canon-4k-refresh-c200-c400-coming-nab

Dunkan Wolf
03-28-2014, 10:35 PM
I hope RED cleans up the mess that is Dragon and starts shipping the sensor in bigger numbers... otherwise they might indeed be 'doomed'

Nick Morrison
03-28-2014, 10:49 PM
I am afraid that RED is doomed... :(

I don't understand how RED makes profit with the current business.

I never worry about RED being "doomed" as they are owned by a billionaire who appears to have more on his mind than profit.


I hope RED cleans up the mess that is Dragon and starts shipping the sensor in bigger numbers... otherwise they might indeed be 'doomed'

I highly doubt it. Dragon is a remarkable achievement in a tiny package. As soon as upgrades are done, it will sell itself. There's nothing else like it in it's price point.


I kind of get the feeling RED is gonna announce the sale of BT Scarlets, all the Scarlets traded for Epic upgrades gotta go somewhere after all.

Been wondering about the BT Scarlets, too.

Matt Ryan
03-28-2014, 11:52 PM
Arri 6K 65mm camera...

http://nofilmschool.com/2014/03/arri-developing-6k-65mm-digital-cinema-camera-4k-nab/comment-page-1/

Hrvoje Simic
03-29-2014, 03:24 AM
This is interesting:
http://cinescopophilia.com/transvideo-starlitehd-on-board-3g-sdi-field-monitor-is-the-size-of-a-smartphone/

Finally someone made it. Hats off to transvideo.
Waited for this 7-8 years.

Mark L. Pederson
03-29-2014, 07:34 AM
Finally someone made it. Hats off to transvideo.
Waited for this 7-8 years.

Amen.

Why nobody has delivered a small on-board monitor that allows 3D LUT support + wireless CDL control/creation is beyond me. But ... if I had to place a bet who would pull it off I'd say Transvideo.

Brian Merlen
03-29-2014, 08:02 AM
I never worry about RED being "doomed" as they are owned by a billionaire who appears to have more on his mind than profit.



I highly doubt it. Dragon is a remarkable achievement in a tiny package. As soon as upgrades are done, it will sell itself. There's nothing else like it in it's price point.



Been wondering about the BT Scarlets, too.


i agree with your profit theory, red isn't in it for profit cuz their business model is nothing like the throw away camera bodies the other companies make. So I am not sure where they are at financially obviously but I have to say if they were in it for the money, they wouldn't bother with half the bs they do. Surely they lose a ton with trade in programs, with free firmware updates, by not repackaging the same sensors in 30 camera models, they act nothing like the competitors when it comes to business models.

I just hope that chinese 6k camera doesn't catch on. Truthfully I just bought an SD only Phantom cuz I am so sick of waiting for Dragon and keeping my Epic in a rental house I just wanted ANYTHING to play with... I hope Dragon does well, and I don't mind milking MX either

Raphael Madeira
03-29-2014, 08:03 AM
Been wondering about the BT Scarlets, too.

I know right?
But if that does become a reality, I'm betting they won't be eligible for any upgrade, it makes sense.

Mikael Lubtchansky
03-29-2014, 08:32 AM
pre-NAB foolcolor tease #1 (https://twitter.com/mikasky/status/449649932086292481)

Bob Gundu
03-29-2014, 08:54 AM
pre-NAB foolcolor tease #1 (https://twitter.com/mikasky/status/449649932086292481)

Right on! I like where this is going!

Mark L. Pederson
03-29-2014, 09:33 AM
pre-NAB foolcolor tease #1 (https://twitter.com/mikasky/status/449649932086292481)

He he he :)

Right on Mikael. This is will be a HUGE deal.

Mike P.
03-29-2014, 10:17 AM
I will say that KineRAW is doing quite a lot right in theory... Things like dual SSD slots for redundant or extended recording, being able to choose Cineform RAW or uncompressed, sensor crop and binning downscale modes (the 3k binning mode adding two more stops of DR), size and price, mounts, battery life being 3-3.5 hours on a 130wh battery!!!... All of that stuff is amazing (on paper).

...Of course, like any new camera, it's going to take a few brave souls to find out if it's anywhere close to being production ready... And lost-in-translation typos on their website do *not* breed confidence...

And I'm still hopeful to see an affordable ($5k-$10k) FF35/65mm raw option at NAB... whether it's Blackmagic or Sony or someone else. Likely "only" 4k, but really big pixels that are excellent in low-light would more than make up for the "lack" of resolution. I also would still love to see an Alexa4k, and not just a 6k-65mm from Arri (since that's going to be prohibitively expensive to own/operate)... I get the feeling Arri's claim is going to be a very conservative 18stops DR (measured 20+ stops) or something crazy.

I would love for RED to drop the price of the Scarlet-Dragon upgrade. They haven't really taken money for it yet, and $5k is a much easier pill to swallow, especially if the upgrades won't commence until AFTER summer2014 (which is where it seems to be heading). At this point, the only way I'd buy a BT Scarlet is if it was $3k AND still upgradable. Actually, I'd love the prices of REDmags to drop off a little too... Has RED stopped making regular mags?

Am I being overly optimistic? To be fair, it is a buyers market (has been for a couple of years now).

Mikey Grigoryan
03-30-2014, 02:05 AM
What's RED got under its sleeves for us this NAB2014? New camera that's reasonably priced, or just a boring ole firmware update. Oh man after Canon losing a lot of its customers for overpricing 1DC and C300,C500(compared to RED), I'm super excited to see the new EOS Cinema line camera that rumors are going around about.

Matt Ryan
03-30-2014, 02:14 AM
I'm curious most about the Panasonic s35 4k camera. 120fps, 14+ stops dynamic range, record dual formats like the f55, 120 minute record time at 24fps to p2 cards. If it's priced right it could take a huge share of the market.

Arris 65mm would be huge considering RED had been leading the larger format arena. This leaps Dragon big time sensor size wise. And let's be real, it's Arri so it will be widely used and loved.

Maybe RED will surprise us with a 9k FF sensor with Dragon like specs. I have my fingers crossed but a higher priced epic size 65mm camera would be INCREDIBLE. My guess is the Arri 65mm camera will be fairly large... Imagine a Dragon 65mm sensor capturing up to 100fps at full resolution. That would be exciting.

Jairus Burks
03-30-2014, 07:13 AM
Might Spark a Intrest in the Topic Related to Canon

http://thenewcamera.com/canon-3d-a1-coming-on-q4-of-2014/

Terry VerHaar
03-30-2014, 09:11 AM
pre-NAB foolcolor tease #1 (https://twitter.com/mikasky/status/449649932086292481)

Your stuff is simple but solid and insightful, Mikael! Looking forward to what you've got here!! :smiley:

Hrvoje Simic
03-30-2014, 09:11 AM
Amen.

Why nobody has delivered a small on-board monitor that allows 3D LUT support + wireless CDL control/creation is beyond me. But ... if I had to place a bet who would pull it off I'd say Transvideo.

Whoa...

Zeb B
03-30-2014, 09:25 AM
Been wondering about the BT Scarlets, too.

if I was RED I would donate them to film schools in India thus planting the seeds for future Dragon users. Over there they don't bitch about not having the latest tech - they make do with what they have

Mikael Lubtchansky
03-30-2014, 09:59 AM
Your stuff is simple but solid and insightful, Mikael! Looking forward to what you've got here!! :smiley:
Thanks Terry. This new one is a tiny bit more sophisticated than foolcat... But hopefully as solid and insightful :-)

Terry VerHaar
03-30-2014, 10:17 AM
Can't wait. I am not going to make it to NAB tis year but I'll be watching!!

D Anderson
03-30-2014, 10:21 AM
if I was RED I would donate them to film schools in India thus planting the seeds for future Dragon users. Over there they don't bitch about not having the latest tech - they make do with what they have How generous of you on REDs behalf. Luckily likely not to happen. RED could service patient customers: A BT Scarlet could make a great cheap back up camera in case you are hit with the not too uncommon failure of your main equipment.

Tom Greenberg
03-30-2014, 11:05 AM
if I was RED I would donate them to film schools in India thus planting the seeds for future Dragon users. Over there they don't bitch about not having the latest tech - they make do with what they have
Schools (even in the US) are always underfunded and doing whatever they can to stretch their equipment budgets, since this stuff is so expensive. A few years ago, RED sold the very first batch of BT R1MX's to film schools. They were not free by any means, but sold in nice packages that made it possible for smaller schools like mine to acquire them. It has been a real game-changer for our school and our students, and I would hope that something similar might happen with the BT Scarlets.

Jeff Kilgroe
03-30-2014, 12:14 PM
Maybe RED will surprise us with a 9k FF sensor with Dragon like specs. I have my fingers crossed but a higher priced epic size 65mm camera would be INCREDIBLE. My guess is the Arri 65mm camera will be fairly large... Imagine a Dragon 65mm sensor capturing up to 100fps at full resolution. That would be exciting.

If RED can deliver that EPIC-645 camera, which was announced long ago, it would still be ahead of ARRI's new 65mm camera in terms of sensor size. And only 12% smaller than full 15 perf 70mm IMAX. If RED launches that camera and a 4K+ laser projector, I'll have everything I've ever wanted. …for now, anyway. ;)

roryhinds
03-30-2014, 12:24 PM
hmmm lazer projector. I really hope Red produce what they said they would produce

Hrvoje Simic
03-30-2014, 03:49 PM
Machine out a new scaled up Epic style housing that accepts all current accessories and have adapters for Hasselblad and other medium format lenses. I'm in for the 1st one since I have my Daddy's old Hassy lenses and a set of PhaseOne primes . . . that have Leaf Shutters . . . hmmmm 1/1600sec Leaf Shutters . . . how would that help the dSmc effort?? Keep the 6K resolution but add ISO sensitivity for low noise at high shutter speeds by having bigass photosites. Add to that the variety of medium format Tilt Shift lenses and we're making new age art baby



:)

How about 6K-7K 4:3 FF for now. :)
With full flash support.

Paulo Emílio
03-30-2014, 04:52 PM
How about : amazing color science and 3d luts on camera, prores and raw at the same time. for now. ;)

Casey Green
03-31-2014, 03:08 AM
For me, I'm happy that RED has been quiet leading into NAB 2014. I would hope that this means they have moved past their initial phase of years past of announcing products early to generate excitement. They don't need that anymore. Instead, holding off to announce until products are within 3 months of announcement date.

If I were working at RED, I'd seriously consider reconfiguring the Meizler module into a new unibody camera, based on Dragon and Meizler.

They will still have their modular option, but for high end filmmakers, something with all the bells and whistles would be stiff competition for ARRI. The WMD is already available for EPIC/Scarlet/Dragon owners, and if they released a separate wireless module for Video/Audio/Timecode/Proxy, that would cover the bases.

Also, I'd like to see them resolve the confusing release of REDRAY / ODEMAX.

Projector? Cool, but not really their wheelhouse - It'd be great to have, but if they inspired/pressured other companies to react to a possible RED projector, then possibly mission accomplished there.

My $.02

Fredrik Callinggard
03-31-2014, 03:38 AM
Since when did this thread become another reduser conspiracy thread about RED's survival? They're doing fine. I'm shooting worldwide on one of my Epic's for a United Airlines commercial right now. Several blockbuster movies both in the cinema and shooting is added to the shooting on RED. Yes, I feel "betrayed" that my 3xx and my 4 other epic's still haven't been upgraded (probably because it's handled through Europe these days and the early adopter model isn't really the queue anymore), but saying they're gonna loose the game is... Never mind... Can we just get back to what's interesting. What is out there of interest to figure out what moves to be taken during 2014?

Nikhil Kamkolkar
03-31-2014, 08:49 AM
Agreed that there's no need for RED to take the spotlight every NAB. Getting DRAGON out there and entering a phase of consolidation and increasing robustness and ease-of-use is a great focus to have (even if its seemingly boring to the rest of world).

Bob Gundu
03-31-2014, 08:52 AM
In anycase, there seems to be a lot of chatter of NAB being an exciting one this year with a lot of surprises. Philip Bloom is hinting at saving your money now!

Jeff Kilgroe
03-31-2014, 09:21 AM
In anycase, there seems to be a lot of chatter of NAB being an exciting one this year with a lot of surprises. Philip Bloom is hinting at saving your money now!

One can never save enough money. I'm sure Philip has something new to rant and rave about this year, as he always does… Can't say I blame him, I always have a few favorites too.

Jake Wilganowski
03-31-2014, 10:04 AM
Yeah things are heating up. Remember way back when we were talking about the big boys "waking up", well, it's happening in a very big way, good for us consumers

Mike P.
03-31-2014, 01:05 PM
In retrospect, it's kind of crazy how much time the RED One was given to make headway. But yeah, the flood gates are definitely gaping wide open now, hence why I wouldn't be surprised if RED postponed Scarlet-Dragon for half a year, but then offered the upgrade for half-price or something (with the stand-alone price being ~$10k again).

Actually, I heard through the rumour mill - from my most credible sources, mind you -- that Jim Jannard will be at NAB personally handing out bitch slaps to any/everyone who wants one... FREE!

Nikhil Kamkolkar
03-31-2014, 02:50 PM
Actually, I heard through the rumour mill - from my most credible sources, mind you -- that Jim Jannard will be at NAB personally handing out bitch slaps to any/everyone who wants one... FREE!

Heh. This is one product I wouldn't mind if it got delayed. Like, forever. ;)

Matt Ryan
03-31-2014, 03:01 PM
You can view the new Strummer DNA and rest of the lineup at booth #C8539 at NAB (Central Hall). See you guys there!

Alex Kiritz
04-01-2014, 03:26 AM
I think Red will decrease new Dragon prices and justify it by releasing an amazing and somewhat expensive new module.

Adam Johnson
04-01-2014, 08:07 PM
True, but it's apparently already in use as we speak on a couple of films. Obviously won't be the shocking announcement for us, but for the rest of the world...yeah everyone will be talking about it at NAB and on the internets.


No official announcement on an Arri 6K yet. Give it a week and we'll know for sure.

Clayton Burkhart
04-02-2014, 01:19 AM
Arri will unquestionably continue holding the lion's share of the cinema market. A 6K camera from them would allow them to pull even farther away from the field in terms of their Hollywood image. Owner-operator is the battlefield for RED. I think the Sony Prores updates on their F5/55 will continue to challenge this though. Unquestionably, the king of the docu market is Canon. How they are going to bring some exciting fizz to their lineup remains a mystery though. Lastly., the Varicam is either going to eat into ALL of these markets or be a total flop.

Matt Ryan
04-02-2014, 01:40 AM
What if Arri's 6K 65mm also has a 4K s35 window mode instead of a completely separate 4K s35 model? That would be a big seller and keep business alive for the 2k Alexa.

Mikey Grigoryan
04-02-2014, 01:56 AM
Dude red makes a fortune and most of that fortune is off of their accessories! Super overpriced accessories!

Patrick Grossien
04-02-2014, 02:14 AM
True, but it's apparently already in use as we speak on a couple of films. Obviously won't be the shocking announcement for us, but for the rest of the world...yeah everyone will be talking about it at NAB and on the internets.

Oh so very true. I can see the headlines boasting about Arri's "achievement".

Mikey Grigoryan
04-02-2014, 02:15 AM
I'm curious most about the Panasonic s35 4k camera. 120fps, 14+ stops dynamic range, record dual formats like the f55, 120 minute record time at 24fps to p2 cards. If it's priced right it could take a huge share of the market.

Arris 65mm would be huge considering RED had been leading the larger format arena. This leaps Dragon big time sensor size wise. And let's be real, it's Arri so it will be widely used and loved.

Maybe RED will surprise us with a 9k FF sensor with Dragon like specs. I have my fingers crossed but a higher priced epic size 65mm camera would be INCREDIBLE. My guess is the Arri 65mm camera will be fairly large... Imagine a Dragon 65mm sensor capturing up to 100fps at full resolution. That would be exciting.

Yeah red prides itself on bringing first 6k camera. But as Ted said at NAB, "who do we have to beat but our selves" but there's a $300k 8k camera in Japan so if Red announces a 9k camera It'll push boundaries: But let's be realistic who on earth needs 9k? I've saved up $15,300 and I'm pretty excited for this NAB announcements. I almost bought an epic x with my student discount at $15,700(such a tempting price!) but then decided to hold off since NAB is around the corner.

Mikey Grigoryan
04-02-2014, 02:28 AM
Wow I had no idea that Ted Schilowitz is no longer with Red, since last freaking year man. Where the heck have I been? Oh right on some of that :chillpill: pill.

Mark L. Pederson
04-02-2014, 05:19 AM
What if Arri's 6K 65mm also has a 4K s35 window mode instead of a completely separate 4K s35 model? That would be a big seller and keep business alive for the 2k Alexa.

No it would not be a "big seller".

A 4K window on a 6K 65mm sensor would NOT be S35 - not even close. Just do the math.

So ... you have VERY, VERY few lens choices - and most of them are around T4.5 - and NONE that an owner/operator can afford.

If ARRI is smart - they won't even SELL the 65mm camera - they would do RENT ONLY it via ARRI Media Group.

I anticipate ARRI continuing to push ALEXA XT and keep saying that 2.8K scales fine to UHD, etc. - and pushing AMIRA - so .... Papa Bear, Momma Bear and Baby Bear.

But I know for a fact that MANY Amira orders are canceling and switching to F55 - which was off to a very slow start but now gaining momentum fast as networks are actually starting to mandate 4K/UHD deliverables. Especially now that SONY is offering a $1000 hardware upgrade for existing owners to do onboard ProRes+DNxHD and all new cameras off the line moving forward will have that.

M Most
04-02-2014, 08:26 AM
......as networks are actually starting to mandate 4K/UHD deliverables.

Neither Netflix, Amazon, nor Sony are "networks." I don't know of any "networks" (and I interpret that as being broadcast or cable networks) that are doing that at this point in time. I would agree that there are a few "entities" that are, but at this point it's very, very few, and considerably less than we were led to believe just a few months ago. That is the situation right now. Six to 12 months from now that could change. Or not. Time will tell......

Mark L. Pederson
04-02-2014, 08:35 AM
Neither Netflix, Amazon, nor Sony are "networks." I don't know of any "networks" (and I interpret that as being broadcast or cable networks) that are doing that at this point in time. I would agree that there are a few "entities" that are, but at this point it's very, very few, and considerably less than we were led to believe just a few months ago. That is the situation right now. Six to 12 months from now that could change. Or not. Time will tell......

Semantics. I will rephrase for you Mike - see below. And you can call Amazon and Netflix whatever you want - but they are BOTH currently funding series with budgets over $3M per episode - and all the shows greenlit with budgets over $3M an episode I'm aware of are mandated as 4K delivery. And while HBO/Cinemax has not yet mandated - they are finishing their first series to post & deliver in 4K right now :)

Anyway - here's my quote edited for your pleasure -

"But I know for a fact that MANY Amira orders are canceling and switching to F55 - which was off to a very slow start but now gaining momentum fast as some distribution platforms are actually starting to mandate 4K/UHD deliverables. Especially now that SONY is offering a $1000 hardware upgrade for existing owners to do onboard ProRes+DNxHD and all new cameras off the line moving forward will have that.

Mike P.
04-02-2014, 09:11 AM
Doesn't rehoused stills glass and pretty much all Zeiss primes cover ~65mm/FF35?

Mark L. Pederson
04-02-2014, 09:17 AM
Doesn't rehoused stills glass and pretty much all Zeiss primes cover ~65mm?

Nope. You might be thinking about 35mm Full Frame. 65MM is pretty massive. Maybe this can put it in perspective for you -

http://www.flixist.com/ul/212249-imax-35mm-the-dark-knight-rises-and-you/35mm-vs-IMAX-format-70mm-film-size-620x.jpg

Matt Gottshalk
04-02-2014, 09:22 AM
Canon Announces New CN7x17 KAS S 17-120mm Cine-Servo Zoom

http://blog.abelcine.com/2014/04/02/canon-announces-new-cn7x17-kas-s-17-120mm-cine-servo-zoom/#sthash.WWrVP2cA.dpuf


http://youtu.be/xYzdRJe_XxQ

http://blog.abelcine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/01_1000.jpg

Mike P.
04-02-2014, 09:25 AM
I was thinking FF35... But, yeah, 70mm IMAX is bigger than 65mm... 70mm is ~85mm diagonal...(FF35 is 36x24 so "only" ~45mm diagonal)... Medium format is ~65mm (~51x39) which is what I think they're going for... But yeah, still difficult to get glass at that size.

Jeffrey Loewe
04-02-2014, 10:58 AM
Canon Announces New CN7x17 KAS S 17-120mm Cine-Servo Zoom

http://blog.abelcine.com/2014/04/02/canon-announces-new-cn7x17-kas-s-17-120mm-cine-servo-zoom/#sthash.WWrVP2cA.dpuf


http://youtu.be/xYzdRJe_XxQ

http://blog.abelcine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/01_1000.jpg
Saving up!

Billy Jim
04-02-2014, 02:36 PM
$2K price drop on Canon 1Dc at B&H

http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/04/canon-eos-1d-c-price-reduced-by-2000-at-bh-photo/

Alvise Tedesco
04-02-2014, 02:55 PM
Canon Announces New CN7x17 KAS S 17-120mm Cine-Servo Zoom

http://blog.abelcine.com/2014/04/02/canon-announces-new-cn7x17-kas-s-17-120mm-cine-servo-zoom/#sthash.WWrVP2cA.dpuf


http://youtu.be/xYzdRJe_XxQ






http://blog.abelcine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/01_1000.jpg


Wow! Back to basics. If only they managed to keep T2.9 all the way..

Chad Bonanno
04-02-2014, 02:57 PM
Wow! Back to basics. If only they managed to keep T2.9 all the way..

I want to see a Canon 17-120 VS. Fujinon 19-90 comparison before I look at this thing...

Nick Fury
04-02-2014, 03:05 PM
I want to see a Canon 17-120 VS. Fujinon 19-90 comparison before I look at this thing...


With the Fuji glass updated version...

Thankl you very much

Fury

Mikey Grigoryan
04-02-2014, 06:14 PM
man.. a $2k drop for the 1DC is nice but in my opinion its still not worth 10k and that all has to do with the jellow effect on the camera. It just makes it not worth it even at the $10k price; I'd rather get a Scarlet. Since the 1DX and 1DC are so similar in specs and almost everything else, they should price the 1DX at $5k and the 1DC at $6k that would be much more reasonable.

Patrick Grossien
04-03-2014, 12:45 AM
Fujinon announced a 25-300 T3.5 ("word on the street" is for under $50K)
It seems as if it ramps at the longer end to something like T3.9
http://matthewduclos.wordpress.com/2014/04/02/fujinon-steps-up-with-12x-zoom-25-300mm/

Matt Ryan
04-03-2014, 03:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhygUPY_fS8&feature=youtu.be

Bob Gundu
04-04-2014, 08:00 AM
I'm thinking resurrecting the twitter hashtag #redusernab may be a good idea.

Freya
04-05-2014, 02:12 AM
What if Arri's 6K 65mm also has a 4K s35 window mode instead of a completely separate 4K s35 model? That would be a big seller and keep business alive for the 2k Alexa.

Matt, that is a really, really, really good point.

Freya

Matthias Hutter
04-05-2014, 06:19 AM
Sony A7s, 4230 x 2820 (~12MP) full frame sensor, announced Sunday
4k video direct pixel mapping, XAVC-S, clean HDMI (whatever that means)

http://www.eoshd.com/content/12469/full-frame-sony-a7s-1-1x-sensor-crop-4k-mode-xavc-s-codec
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-sony-a7s-records-4k-in-xavcs-codec-and-with-4k-clean-output/

Billy Jim
04-06-2014, 11:53 AM
recap of posting at CML:

http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?7828-NAB-2014-Predictions&p=117980&viewfull=1#post117980

Freya
04-06-2014, 12:40 PM
A 4K window on a 6K 65mm sensor would NOT be S35 - not even close. Just do the math.


I'm rubbish at Maths, and while it's fairly apparent that a 4K window is not going to be as small as S35mm I wondered if it would be small enough to work with full frame glass like those new Schnieder lenses! :)

I'm very underwhelmed by the idea of a huge sensor 6K Alexa to say the least.

Freya

Adam Johnson
04-06-2014, 03:48 PM
AJA 4K camera to be announced for $9K. Will give specs if I hear more

Kemalettin Sert
04-07-2014, 05:02 AM
where is the arri 65mm cam?

Petr Dvorak
04-07-2014, 11:37 AM
4K inflation

Elsie N
04-07-2014, 08:30 PM
Anyone been by the US Navy booth? I heard they announced their Mach 7 projectile Rail Gun today. Should obsolete ICBMs.

paulherrin
04-07-2014, 08:37 PM
worked well on the death star...

Elsie N
04-07-2014, 09:03 PM
worked well on the death star...

We should be careful what we imagine... someone may make it a reality. '-)