5K Epic

[Adam Levins]

Wow this camera was unexpected... very cool!

[S. Um]

And you can redeem your Red One body for $17,500 towards Epic! That's amazing! But how can Red stay in business if they give away such great deals?!

[Justin Kirchhoff]

damn all of you who can even get to the site....i just want to see what's up!

[Andrew Thomas]

I'm hoping RED will have some sort of discount program on the trade in RED ONES. I will take the red headed 4K step child off their hands :)

[Adam Levins]

Has anyone managed to download the NAB PDF from the red site?

I keep getting this message:

Couldn’t open the file. It may be corrupt or a file format that Preview doesn’t recognize.

[Justin Kirchhoff]

i can't even get to the page

[David Dennis]

Same error for me, Adam. Looks like it's downloading only a small fraction of the file before giving up - the first try I got about 700k and the second time 200k. The whole file's 700mb so that's not going to work :-(.

And I can't get to any of the other pages, either - could some kind soul share the details?

D

[David Dennis]

Ouch! Sorry, 7mb, not 700mb. So at least it should be theoretically possible to download ...

D

[Catpants]

Same, corrupt PDF

[Steven-Marc C.]

SPECIFICATIONS:

* FULL FRAME S35MM NEW MYSTERIUM X SENSOR
* 1-100 FPS
* UP TO 100 MB/SEC. REDCODE RAW AND RGB RECORDING TO REDFLASH
* FULL SIZE DUAL LINK HD-SDI, 2-XLR AUDIO INPUTS AND HDMI
* WI-FI CONTROL
* FIREWIRE 800 and USB2
* 6 POUND FULLY MACHINED ALUMINUM BODY WITH HYBRID STAINLESS PL MOUNT
* COMPATIBLE WITH MOST RED ONE ACCESSORIES
* FULLY UPGRADABLE SENSOR, BODY, BOARDS AND MOUNT.

SPECIFICATIONS, DELIVERY DATES AND DESIGN ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE... COUNT ON IT.

[Roxco]

Same issue at RED HQ...

Rosco



Has anyone managed to download the NAB PDF from the red site?

I keep getting this message:

Couldn’t open the file. It may be corrupt or a file format that Preview doesn’t recognize.

[Catpants]

Any one know the price?

[david farland]

Here we go again....I love this shit...
6 windows opens trying to update as much as possible.

The red.com pdf download is working...but sooo slow

[Justin Kirchhoff]

wtf is REDRAY???

[Chris Kenny]

And you can redeem your Red One body for $17,500 towards Epic! That's amazing! But how can Red stay in business if they give away such great deals?!

Well, we should wait and see what the price tag on this this is. This being Red, I'm sure it'll be quite aggressive, but I have a feeling that getting an Epic is not going to just be a matter of turning in your Red One body and sending an extra $1500....

[Andreas Fernbrant]

What happend to their slogan:
"Rendering obsolescence obsolete"

Seems to be forgotten right about now. About half or less then half of the people got their cameras. And they are doing a new better cam from scratch, that feels like a sequal to Red One..

Not what I wanted to see...

[Adam Levins]

With the red one being upgradeable I wonder why they needed the epic? (which is also upgradeable)

I wonder if the RED one line will continue along side the epic or if this is a replacement.

I guess I am wondering if we can still expect a sensor upgrade on the RED one at some point?

[Charles Perkins]

did anyone else see the part where you can exchange your red one for a $17,500 credit towards a red epic when it is released?

crazy.

[Gunleik Groven]

The good thing is 100 MB/S Redcode
The next good thing is 2009
The third good thing is dual link HD-SDI
The less good thing iss less ports, i guess...
The hilarious thing is upgradeability from RED ONE.
The secret is the price.
The coolest thing is Scarlet

RedRay. Screens. Playback. Hmm. Interesting. Need to see specs.

(Gunleik - really have to run for that shoot now...)

Congratulations RED Team, I guess Sony/DALSA et al didn't see Epic coming. I sure didn't!


Gunleik

[Clayton Farr]

"All RED ONE camera bodies are redeemable for a full $17,500 credit toward EPIC when EPIC is released."

Surreal. Jim and crew, you never cease to amaze at your commitment to both aggressive development and customer support.

Best,
Clayton

[Harmonica]

I'm scared.

[FractureD]

That was a nice bait and switch for the competition.

"Hey Sony et al, look over here at the "Scarlet""
<<BANG!>>
::bashes them on the head with Epic Proportions while they're not looking::

That's an awesome strategy! Go TEAM RED!

[Cüneyt Kaya]

4k Redray


SPECIFICATIONS:

* PLAYS 4K, 2K, 1080P, 720P AND SD FROM RED DISC AND RED EXPRESS
* ALSO PLAYS NATIVE RAW R3D FILES FROM COMPACT FLASH

SPECIFICATIONS, DELIVERY DATES AND DESIGN ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE... COUNT ON IT.

[Mikael Lubtchansky]

Hello

if you're on a Mac and having trouble downloading the NAB pdf (getting a corrupted download when safari fails after a few Kb...) try with this app :

http://www.igetter.net/

it's a cool shareware (with demo mode to try it out) and worked perfectly well here to download that pdf :sorcerer:

the pdf doesn't contain much more info than what is on the website about EPIC, SCARLET, RED-RAY and lenses, but has some nice rendered images of all products, including RED one which is (of course) still part of their product line.

PS : just paste the pdf URL into igetter (http://www.red.com/skin/img/nab_2008/nab2008.pdf)

[Justin Kirchhoff]

It'll be interesting to see how they replace the cameras.....I'm guessing EPIC is a 5.5k sensor, with the extra pixels doing the black balancing and such.

[S. Um]

Heard Epic priced at $40k.

[Bing Bailey]

I want to know what the new sensor can do. more DR ? also it would be a shame if EPIC was double the cost of RED ONE. we have to reserve judgement until we hear pricing. sounds like EPIC is RED TWO. now that they've gained all the knowledge from RED ONE they can apply it to getting a better sensor , shaving weight off the camera and fixing the bits we complain about. would be nice to see 15 stops of DR from epic , god this doesn't answer my questions it just raises a million more to drive me insane

[Bing Bailey]

40k , we're not in kansas anymore , thats dissapointing. with those numbers we're back in sony pricing land. even if it is a 5k camera. thats way out of my budget. if the new sensor doesn't have at least 15 stops of DR this won't fly, resolution isn't everything

[Adam Levins]

From Last page of the PDF (finally got it to work :-)

DIGITALLY OPTIMIZED PL MOUNT CINEMA LENSES. 18-85MM T2.9 ZOOM • 25MM T1.9 • 35MM T1.9 • 50MM T1.9 • 85MM T1.9 • 100MM T1.9 • 300MM T2.9 COMING IN THE SECOND WAVE... 15MM T2.8 • 18MM T1.9

[brandon herman]

40k , we're not in kansas anymore , thats dissapointing. with those numbers we're back in sony pricing land. even if it is a 5k camera. thats way out of my budget. if the new sensor doesn't have at least 15 stops of DR this won't fly, resolution isn't everything

sure, but...

1. we don't know if this means they'll discontinue the RED ONE at $17,500
2. the RED ONEs that get traded in may get refurbished and sold for $10,000
3. the Scarlet is affordable, and 3k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ScottPictures]

SCARLET 100 MB/SEC REDCODE
EPIC 100 MB/SEC REDCODE
RED ONE 36 MB/SEC REDCODE*

Has the Red One been nerfed?
Why is Red One only 36?
Can it be upgrased to 100 MB/SEC?

*from RED PDF

[jeff.a]

$30,000 for Epic says:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Red-Digital-Cinema-Unleashes-the-Scarlet-34906.htm

[Teague Kennedy]

wonder if we will be able to upgrade our red ones to the new mysterium x?

[Ryan Erwin]

If you're having trouble downloading the PDF, please use this address:

http://red.cachefly.net/nab/nab2008.pdf

Best-

Ryan @ RED

[Fredrik Callinggard]

He's clever Mr Jannard. Hats off for him!!! I will buy it, trade my RED One for it and thereby essentially pay $30K for a RED Camera body HAHAHAHA

Clever, annoying and GREAT at the same time HAHAHAHA.

Regards,

Fredrik Callinggard

[David Wyatt]

40k , we're not in kansas anymore , thats dissapointing. with those numbers we're back in sony pricing land. even if it is a 5k camera. thats way out of my budget. if the new sensor doesn't have at least 15 stops of DR this won't fly, resolution isn't everything

What other 5K cameras are out there for $40,000? Hmmm...maybe none? That $40,000 figure sounds a bit rounded off to me so is probably unlikely - I'd guess at twice what the Red One is. If you're on a budget the Scarlet is a great option.

[David Nardini]

The statement '... FULLY UPGRADABLE SENSOR, BODY, BOARDS AND MOUNT ...' is present in the 5K EPIC narrative; fine, ok, good ... as expected.

For some reason NOT present for the 4K RED ONE narrative ... used to be no ?!

Does this mean that the upgrade path is essentially EPIC only :blush: ?
I guess it will depend on costs ...

[Bing Bailey]

I want 35mm DOF , Scarlet is lovely. course it will have the new sensor and all that brings. it really is an amazing piece of kit. and about 20 times less for what most other 2/3 sensors cost. indies will love it they could buy two for the same price as a hvx200. I'm sure the lens will be top notch too. course we're all going to want epic 5k, although at this point 4k is enough, its the latitude/DR I want to see increase to at least 15 stops. I like the fact they've shaved 3lbs off the camera with Epic. 100fps at 5k is pretty killer too. I think its quite possible EPIC will be the final nail in films coffin. not that I hate film. I love it. its got a beauty all its own. its just too damn expensive for most of us mortals

[Bing Bailey]

rendering our original pricing model and mantra obsolete, sorry couldn't resist

[Frazier Nivens]

Same error for me, Adam. Looks like it's downloading only a small fraction of the file before giving up - the first try I got about 700k and the second time 200k. The whole file's 700mb so that's not going to work :-(.

And I can't get to any of the other pages, either - could some kind soul share the details?

D

I finally got the page up and it was a RED spider. Very funny.

Good luck site will be packed today. Hopefully the server won't crash and burn.

[Chosei Funahara]

Wow, So much traffic, I can’t even log in REDUSER’S NET.
It took 20 minutes to got here.
Anyway, 30K pricing isn’t bad, but I’ll use RED ONE till I needed 5K.
My post environments are FCP.
I’m not ready for infiniband and 100 terabit server is not ready.

[Adam Levins]

SCARLET SPECIFICATIONS:

* NEW 2/3" MYSTERIUM X SENSOR
* 1-120 FPS (180FPS BURST)
* UP TO 100 MB/SEC REDCODE RAW AND RGB RECORDING TO DUAL COMPACT FLASH
* 4.8" LCD
* 8X T2.8 RED ZOOM LENS
* FULL AUTO OR FULL MANUAL SHOOTING MODES
* HDMI and HD-SDI
* FIREWIRE 800 and USB2
* STILL MODE
* COMPATIBLE WITH MANY RED ONE ACCESSORIES
* WI-FI CONTROL

SPECIFICATIONS, DELIVERY DATES AND DESIGN ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE... COUNT ON IT.

I am curious about the LCD on this baby. Is it built in? There is a Pic on the site with what looks like the standard (external) LCD attached?

I am guessing it has the 4.8" built in and the picture is illustrating the RED accessories attached...

[kmikami]

course we're all going to want epic 5k, although at this point 4k is enough, its the latitude/DR I want to see increase to at least 15 stops.

Isn't an increase in resolution one path toward increased dynamic range? If you're targeting 2k delivery for example, then shooting 5k and scaling down should give you a great deal of noise reduction. Or to put it another way, 5k Epic footage scaled down to 4k should have lower noise than 4k directly from the Red One.

[Richard Lackey]

5K seems a bit overkill if you ask me. 4K serves well to come near the resolving power of most film emulsions and it's been enough of a battle for me to get a post pipeline running that will grade and finish uncompressed 2K real-time. Have to go for a Bright Systems SAN or similar for real-time 4K, and who knows for 5K. They must be thinking no-one will bother with a uncompressed DI anymore, because I'll bet my Red that affordable storage and bandwidth approaching 2GB/sec won't be around by 2009.

Is it wise to push the aquisition technology so far beyond the means to support it? Call me stuck in my ways, but I want a uncompressed DI, and I don't see how that is practical at 5K.

Still, to shoot at 5K, output 4K and DI at 4K could have some advantages. The lower compression also is a major plus.

When all is said and done, I'll be waiting in line to trade in my Red One and I think it's an amazing and unexpected move on Red's part. Poor old Sony and Panasonic are so far behind, it's really quite sad.

Think about it though, a camera with no depreciation!

That's very clever, I have to admit.

[Justin Kirchhoff]

I'm guessing we can get 100mb/s out of the RED One with the RED Flash drive. Build 16 or beyond, that is the question...

[Esperman]

What happend to their slogan:
"Rendering obsolescence obsolete"

Seems to be forgotten right about now. About half or less then half of the people got their cameras. And they are doing a new better cam from scratch, that feels like a sequal to Red One..

Not what I wanted to see...

I agree. Lets see a usable, solid workflow in place and finish Red 1 before moving onto 5K.:glare:

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Higher datarates will mean slower processing of files in post... (I think I am waiting long enough as it is...)

If the EPIC is 40k as suggested it is higher priced than what we have come to expect from RED - but then the fact that they will accept your current RED ONE as a trade in at 17500 value will help a lot - and that shows how much RED cares about it´s current costumer base!

I am not going to trade in my RED ONE for a 0,5 K resolution upgrade, but they must have something serious up their sleve - I am guessing significantly increased dynamic range.

Scarlet looks exciting, but the price is a major factor of how interesting it will be to me, anyone heard anything yet?

[Dominique Grenier]

Scarlet looks exciting, but the price is a major factor of how interesting it will be to me, anyone heard anything yet?

I'm sure I saw $3000 on http://provideocoalition.com/

However I can't find it, so it was either pulled because it was a mistake or insider infos not supposed to be published.

Either that, or I'm crazy...

[Damien Molineaux]

5K seems a bit overkill if you ask me. 4K serves well to come near the resolving power of most film emulsions and it's been enough of a battle for me to get a post pipeline running that will grade and finish uncompressed 2K real-time. Have to go for a Bright Systems SAN or similar for real-time 4K, and who knows for 5K. They must be thinking no-one will bother with a uncompressed DI anymore, because I'll bet my Red that affordable storage and bandwidth approaching 2GB/sec won't be around by 2009.

Is it wise to push the aquisition technology so far beyond the means to support it? Call me stuck in my ways, but I want a uncompressed DI, and I don't see how that is practical at 5K.

Still, to shoot at 5K, output 4K and DI at 4K could have some advantages. The lower compression also is a major plus.

When all is said and done, I'll be waiting in line to trade in my Red One and I think it's an amazing and unexpected move on Red's part. Poor old Sony and Panasonic are so far behind, it's really quite sad.

Think about it though, a camera with no depreciation!

That's very clever, I have to admit.

It seems you're confused between a 4k RGB image, obtained by scanning 35mm film for example, and a 4k bayer image. From Graeme Nattress, Red One 4k gives you an approximate measured resolution of 3.2K (less according to independant tests). So 5K, would give you a nice clean 4k image !!!

Cheers,
Damien

[Florian Stadler]

I thought Dynamic Range was mainly a question of "fill factor" i.e. how dense the individual pixels are crowded and how big of a percentage of the sensor surface is actively used. Since the new 5K sensor is a Super35 size sensor (same size as Mysterium) wouldn't that mean that each individual pixel is packed tighter and therefore theoretically reduce dynamic range?

Not sure (actually I highly doubt) that's the case with Epic but that's what the theoretical consensus is.

[Manuel Wenger]

Scarlet is under 3K !!!.... I mean the price ! This is great, and I´ll likely get 2 of them for 3D stuff or as B Cam and Making of,.......

Great news from Red, Epic is really a great surprise. Depending on the specs to come i would consider a trade in (of a camera i´m still waiting for ;))

Manuel

[Anders Holck]

Well, that sexy body alone is worth the price :-)

Excellent developments!

[Bing Bailey]

I think some mistakes may have been made with the RED ONE that made it impossible to do certain things. they certainly couldn't make the sensor go any higher than 30fps at 4k and the body being as long as it is meant longer and longer rods for larger lenses.

I think RED ONE is amazing , but I feel it was their training/beta cam. the one where they got to make all the mistakes and now they know what they have to do to do it better. don't forget the sensor and internals were designed over two years ago. thats a whole generation behind at least. combined with all the knowledge they have gained over the two years they've done an amazing job so far. I think this is probably going to upset a lot of people because it was said that RED One would be upgradeable. if EPIC's price really is $40k I could have two RED ONE's for that price and live with the small amount of limitations it has.

I think EPIC probably offers quality way over and above what is possible on the RED ONE i just wish we were able to do all the upgrades on that instead of essentially paying double and getting a trade in on your old body. yes its better and cheaper than any other camera on the market. but that probably won't make a lot of people happy who were barely stretching to make the price it was at presently. I sure as hell hope the warranty on a camera that price is way longer than 1 year

[Philip Powell]

It would be one thing for this to come out NEXT NAB, and we had had a full year to exploit the market, Red just started shipping in larger numbers the past two months. (Granted it's not likely to come out for a while, but still from an client perception standpoint we just took a hit there's no two ways around that.) Heck we just got our camera a few weeks back.

It's all gonna depend on pricepoint, if it winds up being 10kish with the trade-in, then OK, I'm willing to take the hit, but if it winds up being an additional 20K then I'm gonna feel like I made a poor choice and should have waited.

[Damien Molineaux]

Higher datarates will mean slower processing of files in post... (I think I am waiting long enough as it is...)

...

Normally, higher datarate means less compression therefore FASTER processing in post !

Cheers,
Damien

[number6]

Where do we recycle all the junk "brand" cameras we now own? RED is not good for the environment.

[Anders Holck]

I think they will continue to sell the Red One.
If it is under half price of the epic, it will still be a viable option.

Lots of spare parts....and maybe cheaper refurbished models...in 2009 that is.

[Stephen Williams]

agreed. 10k I could handle but this has really taken the wind out o the sales of red one.

Hi,

Sales of Red One have been rather slow recently, therefore it's hardly surprising that a new wonder product is launched. Remember Red is revolutionary.

Stephen

[Eric Edwards]

Ya, im a little disappointed with this. I was hoping that the Red One would be the camera we'd be using for years to come (with upgrades, etc). This isn't exactly the rendering obsolescence obsolete that I was thinking of... Whats going to happen next year at NAB, the Extreme 6K Red Camera?

I think this new camera would have been great if it was maybe 2-3 years from now...but I haven't even received my Red One yet, and now its already obsolete in terms of there being a better camera by Red...

[jaadgy akanni]

Instead of a bigger sensor, any talk about better, cleaner, brighter colors and more stops?

[Teague Kennedy]

Instead of a bigger sensor, any talk about better, cleaner, brighter colors and more stops?

yes, i'm holding my breath on build 16. I don't need 5k. just would like less grain / more DR/ and mabye 4k at faster speed. hope we don't have to fork in 10 - 20 K for that. -- oh and will my birger work on Epic :)

[Bing Bailey]

next NAB Red 3 Gigantor plus decepticon accessories 4k camera in disguise

[Nick Wolf]

Tribe!

Yes ... "A Historical moment of EPIC proportions" Did your jaw drop JJ when you read that phrase?

I guess its in the air and was just a matter of tuning in but if I can do it so can those who are tailing you.

Are we passagers in a jumbo-jet being tossed about because the madman at the helm has rerouted mid flight to engage in a dog fight that inadvertantly involves us all? ... In that case the only one who could manage to manuever at that speed and altitude would have to be the Red-Barron Himself!

I still trust in the defiant vitality of Reds Fearless Leader!!!

ONWARD...

It is easy to miss the connection, there is no Red #1 & #2 there is only - The One - OMNI: which consumes and reinvents itself .

What an audacious opportunity has presented itself, just Imagine - The ability to trade in our old bodies for a new one ...

I like it...Count me in.

DogDay

[Steven-Marc C.]

I think this is a very exciting development for Red. I wouldn't mind trading in my "old" Red one in 12-18 months for a brand new improved camera with a better sensor and better ergonomics. Of course it will all depend on how much more we will have to fork over. Has any official pricing info been announced yet? I've read 40 000 and 30 000 but nothing directly from Red. Hopefully it will be nothing as large as these two figures but something closer to 25 000.

[Warren Kommers]

It is exciting. Better DR and FPS are welcome. I would do 30k in 12 months. Really I should reserve all judgement until 16 specs are released and the price is announced. 25k would be great!

[Nils Ruinet]

Ya, im a little disappointed with this. I was hoping that the Red One would be the camera we'd be using for years to come (with upgrades, etc). This isn't exactly the rendering obsolescence obsolete that I was thinking of... Whats going to happen next year at NAB, the Extreme 6K Red Camera?

I think this new camera would have been great if it was maybe 2-3 years from now...but I haven't even received my Red One yet, and now its already obsolete in terms of there being a better camera by Red...

Same feeling here...
I mean, all this sounds great, but isn't it a bit early for a new camera ?
Most of us haven't even received our Red One yet...

My guess is :
- with Red One, they found a few issues that couldn't easily be fixed just with an update, so making a new camera was easier than upgrading every component
- they didn't make enough profit with the Red One but didn't want to change its price, so making a new more expensive camera made sense.

I like all the new specs of the 'Epic' (weight, wifi,...),
but what the heck are we supposed to do with 5K ?
4K already looks awesome on the big screen (saw it at the IBC), what will 5K add ?
This will only need more processing time and increased storage space/speed...

What about DR ? Noise ? Rolling shutter ? Heat ? Fan noise ?
Regarding price, I'd say 25K would be fair.
The difference between ther Red One and the Epic doesn't seem to be that big... Is it ?

Well, wait and see:)

[pablano]

I'm hearing 40K at NAB for the Epic and under 3K for the Scarlet.

Honestly I want to be excited about the Epic, but at the moment it just worries me. I feel like like all I went through to get the camera, get the right accessories, learn the work flow, may be for not.

I really want the Red Team to come out after NAB and say "Don't worry all you current Red One owners we got your back."

What I don't want them to say is "Well the Red One is kinda outdated now, you should really get the Epic, but don't worry you can trade in your Red One, spend another 20K and get this great new camera, which may or may not be replaced in a year."

Now I don't want to sound too bitter, if they needed to do a total redesign to the Red One to make it better so be it, but I can't help being worried.

[Adam Levins]

Same feeling here...
I mean, all this sounds great, but isn't it a bit early for a new camera ?
Most of us haven't even received our Red One yet...

With RED you have to look at the projected dates and add a couple of zeros. for those of us shooting everyday; the RED ONE is still the only option at the moment and I think for a long time to come.

I am thinking that red will be looking at the feedback from these forums and the specs on the cameras will change.

Other company's tend to wait till they have a final product before announcing it to the world. RED is looking to bring us all into the loop on development if we realize it or not. Personally i think in the long run it is a good strategy.

We have all seen posts where Jim has changed his mind due to popular demand.

One thing I am loving is the ambition and forward thinking shown by RED, I was hoping for a 4k projector but we shall see what the future holds.

[Sven Seynaeve]

For me EPIC is the greatest surprise Red would have come up with.
Redray also seems to have some nice future getting along with the red cams and 4k workflow. More details would be appreciated.

Now a bit explanation about future plans of the red one , while nab is going on or afterwards will be needed to assure us customers to do or have the right investments.

While the Red one is already very promissing, they must have been stuck on internal design , so it's maby not a bad idea to build a new one from scratch using the already great experience they have right now.

They amaze people even more and as far as I can see some people will definately scratch their hair right now...

Price shouldn't be to much of from the already known red pricelists, but maby a little differentiation from a regular dv scene would'nt be to bad at all.

Some people would get to scared this biz is going to be doomed like the music biz has become due to give away everything for almost nothing....

[HD Hildebrand]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but it states "This 5K camera has a full-frame S35mm Mysterium X sensor". There goes all those DX lenses people have been stockpiling and intending to use with their Birger mount.

[Steven-Marc C.]

I'm hearing 40K at NAB for the Epic and under 3K for the Scarlet.
Did you hear this from someone from Red at the booth?

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Up to 30k I think I wouldn't mine swapping.
I have to admit that for a moment I could feel my penis schrinking. My camera is only one week old and already something bigger is coming.
But when you sit back and think of it, it's not a bad thing at all.
I was just expecting something with 4k Displays or projectors, let's wait and see.
Emmanuel

[j72]

I don't think One is going anywhere. It looks more like Jim has it covered :D

[Sven Seynaeve]

THe Epic announcement doesn't necesary dictates you to go for this one. At least you will have the choice from now one. Most people have had good results from their first Red cam so you could go along with it.

The workflow is getting better and better and some companies have come with sollutions lately.
Me myself I will be using a combination of both in the future.


Any news on speedgrade use in combination with red????

No one has been reporting some news by now about the new RED Primes, as far as i could see from the pics they seem to be very nice built.

[Teague Kennedy]

I worry that 5k is a bit if a diversion to keep the red one owners from freaking out completely. "hey here is epic. it's the 4k cam you really want at twice the price."

[Sven Seynaeve]

I really much appreciate Red's open devellopment on this one. I recently bought my ex1 knowing i read somewhere on the internet this cam was also coming out with interchangable lensmount, but my sony dealer didn't know of anything he said.

At least we have options to choose as red could have waited till IBC to inform us on this subject. We're warned that this will happen anyway and we can take our own decisions what to do with it.

[Bing Bailey]

if the resolving power of bayer pattern sensors goes on to diminishing returns after 2.9k what use is 5k, unless the sensor isn't bayer. I don't care about 5k. 4k is good enough. in fact the systems we have can barely manage it and certainly can't process it all that fast. what I want is no skew , no rolling shutter artifacts, 15 stops of dynamic range min and the same great work flow. course paying over 2.5 times the price I never thought we'd have to do since we were all led to believe RED ONE was 100% upgradable. we knew we'd have to pay more for a new sensor but who thought they'd have to pay more than the price of the original camera to get a new sensor

[Emmanuel Cambier]

if the resolving power of bayer pattern sensors goes on to diminishing returns after 2.9k what use is 5k, unless the sensor isn't bayer. I don't care about 5k. 4k is good enough. in fact the systems we have can barely manage it and certainly can't process it all that fast. what I want is no skew , no rolling shutter artifacts, 15 stops of dynamic range min and the same great work flow. course paying over 2.5 times the price I never thought we'd have to do since we were all led to believe RED ONE was 100% upgradable. we knew we'd have to pay more for a new sensor but who thought they'd have to pay more than the price of the original camera to get a new sensor

I think it's a bit early to draw conclusions, don't you think?:calm:

Emmmanuel

[Steven-Marc C.]

Scott Gentry on ProVideo Coalition mentions a price of around $30 000. That would mean adding $12 500 for current owners. I guess we'll know more once Jim logs on to the board.

[Chosei Funahara]

Truthfully, I like Epic’s spec is better, and I like to trade mine.
Interchangeable or upgradeable censor is the key.

[Nils Ruinet]

Still... $12 500 sound like a lot of money for an upgrade...

But hey, as you said, let's wait to see the details.

And whatever happens, the Red One will still remain a fantastic camera.

[wshultz]

I hope it's not that big a price increase for Epic.

On one hand, it took the wind out of my sails, but when you think about it, it's a brilliant move to give full trade-in value. You sure don't want thousands of used Red Ones to suddenly hit the market at devalued rates. This way Red One will hold its value instead and if I decide to sell, I should get most of my original investment.

[antiquaeuropa]

I have been following Red since the DVXuser days when it was a scam. I have been and am still quite excited about what Red is doing for the world of movie making, but I feel that today is an awful day that shows Jannard is not so in touch with what makes Red special.

I think that he has gotten feature fever-- way too excited about development for its own sake without regard to what is desired by other people. First of all Scarlet is not something that is really needed. It is 2/3" and will not deliver filmic depth of field. The lens is only 2.8-- not impressive, 2.0 should have been considered a minimum. My HV20 has 1.9. How will things shot on Scarlet be delivered? At home? It will take some time before people even utilize 1080p. 3k. . . who cares about that much? Many people can hardly tell the difference between 720p and a 1080p. Moreover, numerous people don't see much benefit to HD v. SD. Of course, I am very picky about these things and am somewhat of a perfectionist, so naturally I have a 1080p projector, am an early HD adopter, want even better quality, but do today's announcements point us in the right direction? My chief complaint watching movies as far as the video quality today is the black level, and rather distant second is luminance uniformity. My new projector certainly does not even deliver a clear 1080p.

Evaluating Red One footage, the problem is certainly not resolution. Rarely does anyone even see 4k. S35 DOF scaled down to 2k in post will leave most everyone happy for a great deal of time. Cameron even said that 4k was overkill the other day and he is a techno nut (which may have something to do with some certain "qualities" of his work). Anyway, I personally think that 4k is about the ultimate necessary and of course to get 4k you will need native acquisition to be in excess of 4k. However, I doubt that Epic 5k will be the ultimate. I am sure that Arri will have 6k and given the past decades increase in semiconductors, before you know it 12k will be possible and then xxxk. But the question is: will anyone care? At some point even I won't.

Most people won't care past 1080p or perhaps lower. The Japanese firms will continue their "development" of useless features and incremental increases of video-looking product to squeeze the most out of people that they can. I had this vision that Red was not that kind of company. They came in and shot wildly over anyone's demands by coming out with a 4k camera! Rendering obsolescence obsolete! Giving you more resolution than you wanted. Giving you the depth of field that you craved and much more. In some much later future you might buy a new sensor to upgrade your camera (say in 2012), but Red One was going to put an end to the Japanese electronics' company madness of upgrade ad infinitum. No screwing you with the absurdly tiny 2/3" inch sensors that would not make an artistically appealing movie even if they were 1000 mega pixels and you had $20 mil to make it! No new models every year slowly trickling out a few new features that would not particularly make your features more artful. No line of products one competing against another, so that you had to design one in such a way that it did not eat of the market share of the other existing product! Well, today it is clear that I have been much too optimistic about this new camera company that I thought was going to finally end the madness of the monopoly of the Japanese companies or their other Asian upstart rivals. Red has the same bug of insanity that the Japanese have only they are the American version. Certainly more appealing but far from sensible.

So sing the praises of Scarlet, fanboys! Unless you have at least tens of millions for a huge amount of CG and some passable sci-fi story any feature that you shoot with it will look less like a movie than something shot on a 20-year old film camera. Since you only have a 2.8 aperture, I hope that you lighting budget is at least 100k. But hey you will be able to put it in your hip-hop baggy jean-pocket and impressive you doped up friends. Even better you will be able to take still photos as good as a $400 Powershot does today. You will get the pleasure of taking several times as much hard space for you higher bandwidth codec, so that you will spend your free time paused on certain frames with extreme subjects (probably quite ugly) puzzling out the difference between Raw 28, 36 and whatever else. (Yeah, that's what everyone has been complaining about on Reduser, there is just too much damn compression! Why such low data rates guys! Can't you give us something with some color space and without all of these absurd MPEG-like artifacts!)

Well, after you get over your disappointment about Scarlet you might then say. . . well, ok so Red needs to make some money from the Prosumer crowd. . . ok, suits me, I don't even mind or care. I am saving to buy the Red One and everything else that I need to make a artful real movie from it. Then you look at the Red Relay. I don't really understand how it fits in right now. Maybe it will be great and exactly what we need. I am sure that for 99% of us the highest quality distribution will be Blu-Ray for many years, so I don't see the where this device fits in for me, but I am will to withhold judgement for the time being.

Then we finally get to Epic. What a let-down! 5k? The last thing that I am interested in is resolution. I would not pay $1000 for more resolution until I own a set of Master Primes for $250k. Why not 6k? Why not a 36mm wide (or even wider) sensor and a new lens format or addressing any of a hundred other priorities. I would think that over 90% of sane people of Reduser would prefer delivery of the already promised dynamic range. The next step would be to equal film's DR. Give us a full set of primes. Give us a zoom with T2.0. Give us better low light performance. Give us a solution to combat tungsten lighting. Solve infrared contamination issues. Gives us a way to get great focus on the cheap. Wireless monitoring. The kind of integration promised over a year ago on FCP. Some way to affordably color grade 4k. Turn out the Nikon mount sooner, the promised lens, or even the camera itself. Deliver the promised builds in a timely fashion. On and on and on and. . . there is no shortage of needed work to bring about the Red revolution to movie making! But for God's sake, quite wasting your limited resources on crap that nobody asked for or even needs for NAB next year. It is totally beside the point.

Jannard suffers from a similar personality problem that I have even noticed in myself and I bet exists in many of the people on Reduser: destructive perfectionism. We don't need the last camera, we don't need the greatest camera of 2015, we don't even need to put Sony, Panavision, and Arri out of business. We just need your genius focused on the primary mission. We need the most stable, most efficient camera, the greatest accessories, and best customer support that you can deliver for the most interesting and promising product in motion picture history since color film, namely Red One! Re-double your efforts on Red One. Let's see the Red tripod, jib, stabilizer, gyro system, monitor, projector, post-production solutions, etc. before you waste even 4 hours of one day on these other things. Red One does not have to be everything to all people. If it is simply the greatest tool for those that do not have access to million to actualize their cinematic vision, it would ender you to millions of people for you whole life and probably would make you enough money to be satisfied with if you are the decent person that you appear to be.

Well, I am tired of ranting. I am still going to save my money as fast as I can to afford the Red One and needed accessories. I love Red and will only say good things about it outside of this board, but I am disappointed at the lack of focus and the indulgence that its leader showed today.

[Shawn Bannon]

The EPIC sounds awesome to me. It sounds like the right move, I think most people will stick with the REDONE for a while but I'm willing to eventually pay more for higher frame rates, smaller camera, increased dynamic range, lower noise, and quieter. With a full value trade in on the REDONE its a very nice offer.

all 5k means to me is a little breathing room in reframing for 4k, or maybe those extra pixels for people hooked on anamorphic.

Please RED make this sensor TUNGSTEN balanced!!!

[John Godden]

snip

My HV20 has 1.9.

snip


Relax big fella......................... that HV20 has a micky mouse toy-sized tiny sensor. The DOF with the Scarlet 2.8 will be lots shallower.

Get used to progress!

JohnG

[Anders Holck]

Well, if the target is genuine 4k delivery, and Greame's debayer delivers about 78% effective net resolution, 5k is pretty close to the sweet spot.

Well, hopefully they will leave that joystick behind and make a different controller...

[Anders Holck]

On the scarlet lens, the spec is T2.8, which is probably F2.6.
The HV20 plastic lens is speced at F1.8 at the wide end and F3 at the tele end.

I'd say that's pretty darn close...I'd bet the scarlet lens is way better using a more modest 8x zoom and 2/3" sensor insted of 10x and 1/2.7"

[danbrazda]

I have been following Red since the DVXuser days when it was a scam. I have been and am still quite excited about what Red is doing for the world of movie making, but I feel that today is an awful day that shows Jannard is not so in touch with what makes Red special.

I think that he has gotten feature fever-- way too excited about development for its own sake without regard to what is desired by other people. First of all Scarlet is not something that is really needed. It is 2/3" and will not deliver filmic depth of field. The lens is only 2.8-- not impressive, 2.0 should have been considered a minimum. My HV20 has 1.9. How will things shot on Scarlet be delivered? At home? It will take some time before people even utilize 1080p. 3k. . . who cares about that much? Many people can hardly tell the difference between 720p and a 1080p. Moreover, numerous people don't see much benefit to HD v. SD. Of course, I am very picky about these things and am somewhat of a perfectionist, so naturally I have a 1080p projector, am an early HD adopter, want even better quality, but do today's announcements point us in the right direction? My chief complaint watching movies as far as the video quality today is the black level, and rather distant second is luminance uniformity. My new projector certainly does not even deliver a clear 1080p.

Evaluating Red One footage, the problem is certainly not resolution. Rarely does anyone even see 4k. S35 DOF scaled down to 2k in post will leave most everyone happy for a great deal of time. Cameron even said that 4k was overkill the other day and he is a techno nut (which may have something to do with some certain "qualities" of his work). Anyway, I personally think that 4k is about the ultimate necessary and of course to get 4k you will need native acquisition to be in excess of 4k. However, I doubt that Epic 5k will be the ultimate. I am sure that Arri will have 6k and given the past decades increase in semiconductors, before you know it 12k will be possible and then xxxk. But the question is: will anyone care? At some point even I won't.

Most people won't care past 1080p or perhaps lower. The Japanese firms will continue their "development" of useless features and incremental increases of video-looking product to squeeze the most out of people that they can. I had this vision that Red was not that kind of company. They came in and shot wildly over anyone's demands by coming out with a 4k camera! Rendering obsolescence obsolete! Giving you more resolution than you wanted. Giving you the depth of field that you craved and much more. In some much later future you might buy a new sensor to upgrade your camera (say in 2012), but Red One was going to put an end to the Japanese electronics' company madness of upgrade ad infinitum. No screwing you with the absurdly tiny 2/3" inch sensors that would not make an artistically appealing movie even if they were 1000 mega pixels and you had $20 mil to make it! No new models every year slowly trickling out a few new features that would not particularly make your features more artful. No line of products one competing against another, so that you had to design one in such a way that it did not eat of the market share of the other existing product! Well, today it is clear that I have been much too optimistic about this new camera company that I thought was going to finally end the madness of the monopoly of the Japanese companies or their other Asian upstart rivals. Red has the same bug of insanity that the Japanese have only they are the American version. Certainly more appealing but far from sensible.

So sing the praises of Scarlet, fanboys! Unless you have at least tens of millions for a huge amount of CG and some passable sci-fi story any feature that you shoot with it will look less like a movie than something shot on a 20-year old film camera. Since you only have a 2.8 aperture, I hope that you lighting budget is at least 100k. But hey you will be able to put it in your hip-hop baggy jean-pocket and impressive you doped up friends. Even better you will be able to take still photos as good as a $400 Powershot does today. You will get the pleasure of taking several times as much hard space for you higher bandwidth codec, so that you will spend your free time paused on certain frames with extreme subjects (probably quite ugly) puzzling out the difference between Raw 28, 36 and whatever else. (Yeah, that's what everyone has been complaining about on Reduser, there is just too much damn compression! Why such low data rates guys! Can't you give us something with some color space and without all of these absurd MPEG-like artifacts!)

Well, after you get over your disappointment about Scarlet you might then say. . . well, ok so Red needs to make some money from the Prosumer crowd. . . ok, suits me, I don't even mind or care. I am saving to buy the Red One and everything else that I need to make a artful real movie from it. Then you look at the Red Relay. I don't really understand how it fits in right now. Maybe it will be great and exactly what we need. I am sure that for 99% of us the highest quality distribution will be Blu-Ray for many years, so I don't see the where this device fits in for me, but I am will to withhold judgement for the time being.

Then we finally get to Epic. What a let-down! 5k? The last thing that I am interested in is resolution. I would not pay $1000 for more resolution until I own a set of Master Primes for $250k. Why not 6k? Why not a 36mm wide (or even wider) sensor and a new lens format or addressing any of a hundred other priorities. I would think that over 90% of sane people of Reduser would prefer delivery of the already promised dynamic range. The next step would be to equal film's DR. Give us a full set of primes. Give us a zoom with T2.0. Give us better low light performance. Give us a solution to combat tungsten lighting. Solve infrared contamination issues. Gives us a way to get great focus on the cheap. Wireless monitoring. The kind of integration promised over a year ago on FCP. Some way to affordably color grade 4k. Turn out the Nikon mount sooner, the promised lens, or even the camera itself. Deliver the promised builds in a timely fashion. On and on and on and. . . there is no shortage of needed work to bring about the Red revolution to movie making! But for God's sake, quite wasting your limited resources on crap that nobody asked for or even needs for NAB next year. It is totally beside the point.

Jannard suffers from a similar personality problem that I have even noticed in myself and I bet exists in many of the people on Reduser: destructive perfectionism. We don't need the last camera, we don't need the greatest camera of 2015, we don't even need to put Sony, Panavision, and Arri out of business. We just need your genius focused on the primary mission. We need the most stable, most efficient camera, the greatest accessories, and best customer support that you can deliver for the most interesting and promising product in motion picture history since color film, namely Red One! Re-double your efforts on Red One. Let's see the Red tripod, jib, stabilizer, gyro system, monitor, projector, post-production solutions, etc. before you waste even 4 hours of one day on these other things. Red One does not have to be everything to all people. If it is simply the greatest tool for those that do not have access to million to actualize their cinematic vision, it would ender you to millions of people for you whole life and probably would make you enough money to be satisfied with if you are the decent person that you appear to be.

Well, I am tired of ranting. I am still going to save my money as fast as I can to afford the Red One and needed accessories. I love Red and will only say good things about it outside of this board, but I am disappointed at the lack of focus and the indulgence that its leader showed today.

WOW! You just saved me a lot of time with my potential rant. Thanks (no sarcasm here- serious). Agree with 95% of your post. Listen up RED.

[Ivan G]

It was a mad house in RED booth today. I got to see some primes and the 18-85 BEAST! That thing was huge. Didn't get a chance to play with anything. Did see clips from Guerilla and Argentine :) Believe it or not I found out about Epic on these forums and not the RED booth. Go figure...

[Laurent AZEMA]

Hi all
First post in reduser, so be kind...
I agree antiquaeuropa, I (and I think most of them reduser fellows) do not need the 5k Epic camera for at least the next decade. As a director I need some improvements which are not always justified by technologie. As an exemple I'am pretty shure that shallow dof is a problem for Sony's and Panavision's designers. I was really fed up by those cams (Sony's and Panavision's) just because of that.
Imagine we had to wait the 2000's to get progressive scanning, just because those cams were designed by ingeneers for ingeneers.
But if you look on a marketing ways Jim and his crew need to have a high end caméra. The question is not to put Arri and Sony out of business but not let those companies put Red out of business. That's why Jim needs Epic today to stay at the top: for credibility. So, Antiquaeuropa remenber you have the choice not to buy Epic, Redone is still here and I'm sure they will improve it as well.

[Johan Pabon]

I think it's a bit early to draw conclusions, don't you think?:calm:

Emmmanuel

I agree on that one. Personally I don't mind Red making the Epic as long as they will improve on build 16 and future builds when it comes to NR.
There is a lot of speculation on the forum. I don't want to offend anyone, but the place feels like a chickenhouse from time to time...

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Salut Zem

I send you a private message.

Emmanuel

[Drew Mylrea]

The only problem that I am seriously worried about with the Epic is for development of the Red One to be slowed, or for the camera not to be pushed to the max because the Red team says "ah, no need to do that, that's what we have the epic for." If the Red One was it, the team would have to squeeze that orange for all its worth; I just hope the Epic doesn't create excuses.

Now this is being said with full faith in the Red team, not having been let down yet. I think its important for us all to voice our concerns so they can be addressed (as they most always are).

[jaadgy akanni]

Hi all
First post in reduser, so be kind...
I agree antiquaeuropa, I (and I think most of them reduser fellows) do not need the 5k Epic camera for at least the next decade. As a director I need some improvements which are not always justified by technologie. As an exemple I'am pretty shure that shallow dof is a problem for Sony's and Panavision's designers. I was really fed up by those cams (Sony's and Panavision's) just because of that.
Imagine we had to wait the 2000's to get progressive scanning, just because those cams were designed by ingeneers for ingeneers.
But if you look on a marketing ways Jim and his crew need to have a high end caméra. The question is not to put Arri and Sony out of business but not let those companies put Red out of business. That's why Jim needs Epic today to stay at the top: for credibility. So, Antiquaeuropa remenber you have the choice not to buy Epic, Redone is still here and I'm sure they will improve it as well.

Zem, you make a good point. I hadn't thought of Epic as the RED team's preemptive strike. It makes sense.

[Eren Ozkural]

Funny, "EPIC" by Faith No More came up on iTunes as I was reading this thread...
"Youuuu want it all but you can't have it...
iiit's in your face, but you can't gra-ab it!"

I was worried to a degree that EPIC will stretch RED's overworked staff too thin to concentrate on RED ONE, but then I had a thought. If you employed people to build cameras, you wouldn't let them go after a single model. I don't think those engineering genius' could just wait around on the company payroll while firmware and customer service issues dominated everyones' attention.
Give them a holiday, when they come back get them to work on the Mysterium X which in turn becomes the basis of two cameras. One for a current market that is slightly below your current one, another as a preemptive strike against the old boys club's eventual retaliation to all this upstart nonsense!

The very fact that the mysterium x will be available in both 2/3 and S35 sizes makes me think that spinning a RED ONE compatible version shouldn't be a problem unless they went through a quantum leap in i/o technology aswell.

[Jason A. Evans]

Wow! They kept us on our seats for SCARLET and pulled a 5K out of the hat with it. The boys at RED are insane! Wish I could goto the NAB. I understand what antiquaeuropa is saying about Scarlet. Ive been a Adobe Premiere/Sony Vegas user, but I think im gonna completely switch to FCP. And Ive been wondering when RED is gonna come out with its own projetor?

[Eddie]

As grandpa used to say: Watch out son, sometimes the best is an enemy of the good...

Chill out boys, and be happy for your 17,500 refund! That shows devotion towards rendering obsolsence obsolete!

[Justin O'Neill]

Via REDmodz.

http://redmodz.com/images/img_2417.jpg

[SF Geek]

I sure hope Red didn't put the camera interface on the back of the new camera. That definitely wouldn't be epic.

[pablano]

Did you hear this from someone from Red at the booth?


I definitely heard the Scarlet was under 3K from Kelly when she was giving people the brochures, but now you have me doubting exactly who I heard the 40K number from. I thought she said it, but it was such a madhouse there, I might have misheard or heard it from someone else. I'll probably try to drop by there again and make sure.

As for the Epic, I agree with those who say we shouldn't jump to conclusions. And, really, it could be up to a year or more before people start taking deliveries on the Epics, so the fact that the promise was made to give Red One owners the full trade in value for their camera is pretty darn nice.

But it's still a little disconcerting. Will I really have to pay 20K to upgrade to the Epic even with a trade in? 10K would be pushing it, but more manageable for me personally and yet I would still much rather have upgrades available for the Red One.


Oh, one last thought on resolution. NHK a Japanese company is showing their Ultra High Definition Screen(s) at NAB (at the very back in the C hall for those attending). They basically slapped four 4k screens together creating a 7680x4320 pixel resolution TV.

7K anyone?

[Justin O'Neill]

Scarlet is definitely '3k under $3k'. Everyone coming out of the RED tent was told the same thing.

[Steven-Marc C.]

Thanks Pablano. 40K for Epic seems to have been confirmed by different sources as well. It makes sense with people saying it isn't a Red one replacement but a different camera.

[Nick Wolf]

Morning,

As a pessimist I think it will be apparent when we see who shows up at the scene first to solve all of our new problems...Offering a suite to serve each layer of the K-Ache 3k, 4k, 5k, that would be telling, who the bedfellows were who concocked a new set of problems that didnt exist just to have something to offer up as the ultimate solution, kind of like setting up a paddle shop by the side of shit creek, pretty Lukarative concept. I wonder who that could possibly be ???

on the other hand,

As an optimist we must remember these guys are not in it strictly for the cash they are passionate adventurers so excited about their journey that they insite the next range of challenges themselves, setting standards and benchmarks for others to follow or eat dust...Soon the sdk will be realeased and legions of worker ants around the globe will pounce upon the secret sauce.

IOW the shit will sort itself out on its own...These guys are not baby sitters or housewives they are pioneers and buckeneers chomping at the bit to get on to the next plateu to boldly go where no man has gone before...You know the words...AAAAHHH AHHHHH AHHHH AHHHH AHHHH AHAHHH.

Seriously while the stuff is getting sorted out on RED workflow wise DRwise, NRwise etc etc etc, they will be staking out new territory and pushing the envelope of new frontiers...Paveing the way I believe its called.

Also as 4k becomes common place dont you think all those lawyers who work for the conglomorants will be drafting new barriers to bar certain players from access? JJ is making sure that for once the house doesnt win it all, we will win because we will be ten steps ahead and beat them at their own game, lets keep our heads cool and remember how the game is played if indeed it is to be won.

Thinking outside the box means first taking a step back and being able to see outside the box all at once...kind of like what 5k does next to 4k.

DogDay.

[Anders Holck]

Just saw this still in another thread:
http://redrental.dk/linked/DSC03056.jpg

Yes, full size BNC's and new Dial controller, RIP Joystick...

I'd still prefer the controller on the operator side at the front. Or maybe both places like on a DSLR where you have the main dials on both the main body and the portrait grip.
It's awkward to have to reach onto the back when you are operating and want to change WB, or shutterspeed. (I have gotten a few crazy looks from people when I do it with the Red one. Left arm behind my head, dialing blindly)
Please make it a mission to make it more ergonomic for the operator to control. :-)

[cinemano]

Well i think.. if Red one is 17500 dollars.. hum... thats 4375 dollars per K therefore Epic would be 21875 in a perfect world. but something tells me it wont be that simple :)

[Brent J. Craig]

Yup. The display is on the wrong side again.

[cinemano]

If it really is 40k, then it would be hard for me to decide on Epic or an extra Red for 3D for same total price.. 5K is cool.. but 3D is the real future i think. I saw U23D .. was amazing,. everything looks so dated and flat after you come out of that theatre..

[Warren Kommers]

If it really is 40k, then it would be hard for me to decide on Epic or an extra Red for 3D for same total price.. 5K is cool.. but 3D is the real future i think. I saw U23D .. was amazing,. everything looks so dated and flat after you come out of that theatre..

Although that movie would have been much better with more resolution and less DOF.

[Steven-Marc C.]

It certainly is very nice to have all these options. I really like that leaner, lighter body. I'm sure I'll want one when it becomes available, regardless of the higher price tag.

[Brandon Fraley]

i feel similar disappointment about the new announcements, but i think those feelings are pretty irrational.

first off, if EPIC is $40k and we'll assume it has superior res, DN, NR, whatever else... then compare that to the F23 or the Dalsa. i mean shit! It's a steal! just because you or I can't pay for it out of our pocket doesnt mean this isn;t an amazing price point in line with their other products.

And as far as osbsolesence, everyone knew at some point there we would hit a wall in the hardware. Eventually there WOULD be a new camera. Red allowing you to trade in ur camera means ur out nothing!

Now I wont be upgrading because i was originally in the market for an HVX200 when I first heard about RED ONE, and RED ONE does everything i want and more. But if ur in the market for a $40k camera, GREAT! Buy a RED ONE and get a camera easily worth $40k, then trade it in for EPIC and get a camera easily worth $100k.

I'm with you that i wish our $17k little friend was the end all be all forever, but we all knew this wouldn't be the case.

for all of us who won't be even close to the market for EPIC... we should be thrilled with the camera RED has offered us. For all the big boys used to paying Sony prices... here's more for less!

as long as RED continues to support and improve each of it's products, everyone's happy! :)

[Colin C]

...
as long as RED continues to support and improve each of it's products, everyone's happy! :)

Except maybe Sony, Dalsa....:)

But I think you nailed it Brandon, there is only so far you can go before the hardware has to change. Epic in the RED colours is going to be niiiiiice piece of equipment. And having the FULL credit trade in is a real Kudos move in keeping faith with RED customers while introducing a new body. Has this been done by any other Camera company??? I can't think of a presidence.

Looking forward to the BIG Recon post that's gotta be just around the corner.

[Joe Aurili]

I want to know why Epic only has 2 XLR, unlike RED ONE with 4. Does that mean only 2 channels of audio on Epic? If so, why?

[Nick Wolf]

Sony, panasonic, arri, dalsa, The big boys: And then someone comes along who rocks the boat ... Sometimes the behind the scenes politics of how decisions actually get made and why never ever see the light of day...Sometimes they do...Sometimes these decisions are stricktly business and not personal at all and sometimes they are just that...personal...How does it suddenly go from 4k to 5k ? How? I think this clears up alot of speculation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuT12_bPla8

[laguun]

Hi,

Sales of Red One have been rather slow recently, therefore it's hardly surprising that a new wonder product is launched. Remember Red is revolutionary.

Stephen

a) Is that pure speculation of yours or do you have any fact backinh up that statement?

b) red has outsold the former market leader, arri, by far. i think it can be safely estimated that reds monthly S35mm camera output is higher than arris yearly output.

c) red is swamped in a backlog of orders. the cameras are sold out for months.

d) its several "wonder" products. i would however rather use "disruptive" to reflect waht they do to the the competition.

If you prefer to use Viper and use 2/3 & S16 DOF, thats perfectly fine. We use HDCAM besides RED as well. However, the scarlet, the epic, the redray and the primeset will all probably be bought here, and i think the scarlet will eat *a lot* of the 2/3 HD market of HDCAM 750/790/900/F23/VIPER. At that pricepoint, it will probably outsell Sony and Thomson.

[laguun]

for all of us who won't be even close to the market for EPIC... we should be thrilled with the camera RED has offered us. For all the big boys used to paying Sony prices... here's more for less!

as long as RED continues to support and improve each of it's products, everyone's happy! :)

We invested in HDCAM gear worth over 300.000. Earneing that back took several years. The red prices make the usual 2-4 year return on Invest much easier.

[cinemano]

hmm.. i think if u23d had less DOF the amazing shots of the public would have been blurry.. wouldnt work on a concert film.. 3d would only serve for foregrounds with less DOF, which would be a shame. It was spectacular to see all these people dancing in harmony all in focus in the background :)

[fyz]

Same, corrupt PDF
Hi,

You may try Advanced PDF Repair at http://www.datanumen.com/apdfr/ This tool is rather useful in salvaging corrupted PDF documents. Maybe you can have a try.

Alan

[Kinosaur]

No one seems to be speculating on whether Epic has rolling shutter or global, presumably everyone is assuming it has a rolling shutter. IMHO this is a huge issue for many potential buyers/users of this camera. global shutter would certainly justify the suggested price hike.

[Gunleik Groven]

It has been speculated a lot and also given some answers as to the rolling shutter....

[Kinosaur]

I've obviously been looking in all the wrong places! I've waded through loads of posts, and done searches. What is known ?

[PaulClements]

I'd still prefer the controller on the operator side at the front. Or maybe both places like on a DSLR where you have the main dials on both the main body and the portrait grip.
It's awkward to have to reach onto the back when you are operating and want to change WB, or shutterspeed. (I have gotten a few crazy looks from people when I do it with the Red one. Left arm behind my head, dialing blindly)
Please make it a mission to make it more ergonomic for the operator to control. :-)
Agreed Anders. I'd like to see red make the controls removable and mountable in various places on the camera and even be used off camera and control via the inbuilt WiFi. This would be very sweet.

Paul

[Andrew Madu]

I've not checked the site for all of just under a week, and I come back to see not one but two new Scarlets!

5K!?! What's happening!!! :blink:

Whilst my brains settle to a suitable level to comprehend sense again, can someone please tell me whether the Epic is aimed at being the successor to the RED One? Is there an approximate cost for the Epic?

Edit: After re-reading the pdf a few times over the light begins to shine again! Ah two new cameras. The Epic looks, ermm, very interesting to say the least...now changing RED#: Waiting to RED#: Epic

[sander kamp]

No one seems to be speculating on whether Epic has rolling shutter or global, presumably everyone is assuming it has a rolling shutter. IMHO this is a huge issue for many potential buyers/users of this camera. global shutter would certainly justify the suggested price hike.

There is some info here (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11764&page=10)

[Kinosaur]

Thanks Sander.

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

My interest in Epic will all depend on what the R1 sensor upgrade entails. Jim has already said the rolling shutter will be improved. Presumably, since the upgrade will be to the Mysterium X, it will also get the same boost in DR, a relative boost in max framerate (3K @120fps and 5K @100fps = 4K @110fps?), and maybe the same boost in max bitrate to 100MB/sec. So the only differences, according to the current Epic spec, are that it's got higher resolution, wi-fi control, and it's about 40% lighter.

I don't personally think another 1K of resolution is particularly worth $22.5K (although I suppose it will shut up the folks who whine about the debayering "loss", since then it WOULD be true 4K), especially when 4K is already overkill that few pipelines can handle yet.

Yeah, overall I'm going to wait to see what Epic brings to the plate, but at this point it still seems like R1 is the best value for the money.

[Karl H]

Not that Im a pixel counter, but I had hoped that the Red One would provide a way to get the full 4.5K information from the chip. I'm guessing with epic at 5K, Red would be unlikely to enable 4.5K out of the Red One as to keep their products targeted differently. 0.5K difference would be even less of a reason to upgrade.

4K is more than I'll ever need, but just sayin it seems less likely now that we'll see a 4.5K firmware update for the Red One which I thought was at least theoretically possible. Still, I'm more than happy to be suprised wrong on this one

[danbrazda]

After witnessing everything at NAB first hand and having a long flight to re-visit everything in my mind.... Let's just say, I am cautiously optimistic to be #3203 on the RedOne list. This still seems to be the camera that closest fits my criteria. Unless I hear more than I already have about the EPIC- count me out. Unless the Scarlett comes out with either the most kick ass fixed lens in existence or inter-changeable lenses- count me out. Time will tell.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE... just don't slow the progress of the RedOne's potential. Only thing lacking for me right now with RedOne is 120+ fps at 4K, Compact Flash Media to get more affordable and Apple to step up and seamlessly integrate all that RED has to offer in the 4K spectrum. Only one of these issues is really needed of the RED team. Looking forward to Build 16+ and Jim to get some really good dirt on Steve Jobs for blackmail purposes.

[Mark Pugh]

Apple to step up and seamlessly integrate all that RED has to offer in the 4K spectrum.

Batch transcoding software more Reliable than Redcine is all that really matters to me right now, not another camera.
Seems more important, easier to produce, but way way down the priorities list.

See this thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11936&highlight=shocking

[pablano]

Batch transcoding software more Reliable than Redcine is all that really matters to me right now, not another camera.
Seems more important, easier to produce, but way way down the priorities list.

See this thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11936&highlight=shocking

What about Log and Transfer?

Here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11972

and

Here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11945

[Mark B.]

I'd be extremely surprised if Epic cost $40k... $30k maybe... $25k probably.

The prices that people are hearing, I think are wrong. Even if somebody did hear "$40k" from a Red representative at NAB, they may have misheard the real value amongst the loud masses of people...

Fan: "How much for that Epic camera?"
Rep: "It'll sell for <crowd noise> thousand"
Fan: "Four thousand?... oh, of course you must mean 40 thousand! But, that's so high!"

The RedOne was targeted at serious video enthusiasts/professionals on moderate budgets, and Epic would stray very far from that market if priced at $40k. And as most have noted, Epic won't have so much of a performance advantage to justify such a large price increase. History suggests Red will price Epic to meet or exceed customer expectations... so I'd expect Epic to be priced much less than the $40k rumor that's floating around.

[Stuart English]

[QUOTE] I'd be extremely surprised if Epic cost $40k... $30k maybe... $25k probably. [QUOTE]

Epic = $40K is correct. And worth every $.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

[QUOTE] I'd be extremely surprised if Epic cost $40k... $30k maybe... $25k probably. [QUOTE]

Epic = $40K is correct. And worth every $.

That settles it, at last.

Well worth every penny.

Thanks for the info Stuart.

[Andrew Madu]

Epic = $40K is correct. And worth every $.

Lovely Jubbly :sorcerer:

[cinemano]

please epic be less than 40k.. many people who were attracted to red's price will lose reach of the epic i think. looks like the base production pack wont be compatible too..

[donatello b]

3 camera's .. 3 price points ... take your pick !!
for many the 22K difference will be worth every $ beween epic & red one ...
IMO if one thinks any of the 3 camera's are "over priced" please take a look at other manufacturer's prices ...

[pablano]

please epic be less than 40k.. many people who were attracted to red's price will lose reach of the epic i think. looks like the base production pack wont be compatible too..

That's the whole point. Epic is aimed at a different market.

I was one of the one's who was nervous that the Red One would take a back seat to the Epic when the Epic was announced. And I tried to be balanced with my posts, but I apologize if I contributed to the negativity on the forums after the announcement (there was, of course, plenty of positive reactions on the forums too). The Red Team really deserves a congratulations for the Epic along with everything else, amazing achievements all.

In any case, it's been said over and over that Red is still committed to developing and improving the Red One.

The Epic has better image resolution, but do you need it? Chances are if you absolutely do you're working in a bigger budget arena and can afford the Epic.

The Epic is lighter. But is the Red so heavy that it weighs you down to the ground?

The Epic has a firewire out (okay, I wish the Red One had this), full connectors, higher data rate, but come on, it's $40K of course it's going to have its advantages.

[Mike Prevette]

As long as they can fit a slightly better signal to noise ratio in there with all them tiny pixels I'll be happy. Resolution isn't everything by a long shot.

[Peter Majtan]

I'm hoping RED will have some sort of discount program on the trade in RED ONES. I will take the red headed 4K step child off their hands :)

Now that is a GREAT point!!! :w00t:
I would love "used" RED ONE for about $ 10K :innocent:

[Jason A. Evans]

I'd be extremely surprised if Epic cost $40k... $30k maybe... $25k probably.

The prices that people are hearing, I think are wrong. Even if somebody did hear "$40k" from a Red representative at NAB, they may have misheard the real value amongst the loud masses of people...

Fan: "How much for that Epic camera?"
Rep: "It'll sell for <crowd noise> thousand"
Fan: "Four thousand?... oh, of course you must mean 40 thousand! But, that's so high!"

The RedOne was targeted at serious video enthusiasts/professionals on moderate budgets, and Epic would stray very far from that market if priced at $40k. And as most have noted, Epic won't have so much of a performance advantage to justify such a large price increase. History suggests Red will price Epic to meet or exceed customer expectations... so I'd expect Epic to be priced much less than the $40k rumor that's floating around.

I'd have to agree, Im thinking 25-30K, but Jim always has some tricks up his sleeve.

[Peter McCully]

$40k will allow the elbow room to R&D the things to take Epic beyond Red One besides an extra 1k of resolution e.g., solving rolling shutter skew, getting a higher DR, low light performance etc.

[Gunleik Groven]

If I am seing the picture clearly (which I very well may not...) the higher datarate/lower compression alone will justify the added pricepoint (which I wouldn't be able to afford without the RED :) )

40k is a steal.

Settled.

[Jim Stewart]

3 camera's .. 3 price points ... take your pick !!
for many the 22K difference will be worth every $ beween epic & red one ...
IMO if one thinks any of the 3 camera's are "over priced" please take a look at other manufacturer's prices ...
That's not the point. The point was making obsolescence obsolete into the hands of many, the Red One. Now not anymore.

[Don King]

That's not the point. The point was making obsolescence obsolete into the hands of many, the Red One. Now not anymore.
Same opinion here.

[Jon Sagud]

That's not the point. The point was making obsolescence obsolete into the hands of many, the Red One. Now not anymore.

That was exactly the point. RED One will be the mainstay in the line, the best bang for the buck. 4K in a package that can shoot handheld or on sticks. EFP or feature. And for $17.5K. Always. It's not going anywhere. And if the opportunity to get all your money back after a year (shoot for free) towards an Epic strikes you as not supporting our customer, then your other option is to upgrade your RED One with Mysterium-X sensor technology. Where in this industry, or any other, is making obsolescence obsolete more clearly defined? Is Sony giving back full credit on F23s against F35s?

You have no idea how frustrating it is to be changing an industry and how a company treats customers and hear remarks like yours.

[Meryem Ersoz]

Let RED run and see what they can do on the "high end" ($40K is still a laugh on the high end...).

I'm sure that as soon as Build 16 is released, RED ONE will be all the camera anyone ever needs...it's already more camera than most of us need.

Any further innovations will have to be in delivery systems (RED RAY), because EPIC pretty much maxes out the need for more camera. As does RED ONE...

What seems to be lost in the debate is that none of the line-up of RED cameras are going to be that far apart in terms of images that they can produce. The existing delivery systems don't support the images that *any* of them produce, at least not on a very or affordable large scale--so really, there is no need to get our panties in a twist over who has the better camera...every single camera in the line-up is years ahead of what can be delivered, anyway.

How can EPIC make RED ONE obsolete when so few people can deliver what RED ONE can produce?

What should be obsolete is the discussion of who has the better camera...they all blow the existing standards out of the water.

[Steve Gibby]

That was exactly the point. RED One will be the mainstay in the line, the best bang for the buck. 4K in a package that can shoot handheld or on sticks. EFP or feature. And for $17.5K. Always. It's not going anywhere. And if the opportunity to get all your money back after a year (shoot for free) towards an Epic strikes you as not supporting our customer, then your other option is to upgrade your RED One with Mysterium-X sensor technology. Where in this industry, or any other, is making obsolescence obsolete more clearly defined? Is Sony giving back full credit on F23s against F35s?

You have no idea how frustrating it is to be changing an industry and how a company treats customers and hear remarks like yours.

I thoroughly agree with your points Jon...

The full price trade-in offer by RED for RED ONE into EPIC is fantastic. In a 30 year career in the motion media industry I don't remember such a dollar-for-dollar trade in program.

RED ONE will continue to be what it is: a potent and versatile 4k/3k/2k production tool, fully supported and upgradable camera system.

As one of the very earliest supporters/adopters of RED I am totally onboard with the concept of having our company kits include EPIC, RED ONE, and Scarlet. Our production group will order at least eight EPIC cameras, retain around four RED ONE cameras upgraded to Mysterium X (we own seven RED ONE cameras right now), and order at least ten Scarlet cameras.

We've had nothing but the best customer service from RED, and we've had RED ONE cameras since the very first ones shipped on 8/31/07. I know Jim Jannard and all members of RED Team very well. They are in reality poster children for under-promising and over-delivering. The tools they have delivered in the short length of time they have been in existence is nothing short of stunning.

Thanks for all the hard work RED Team! It is deeply appreciated by the vast majority of us who have been using your products.

[Caesar]

The mutual respect... even when we disagree, it's one of the most aspects that I appreciate in this forum. Epic has been difficult to swallow, though.

[Gunleik Groven]

What I cannot really understand is how EPIC in any conceivable way makes RED obsolete...

ONE is the same today as yesterday, and it will be upgraded.
There are good arguments that there are better cameras than RED ONE out there already - not at the same price, but still... (I haven'tseen/used one, but there are arguments for Dalsa, ARRI D21/D20, SI, F23/and most likely the F35) Do they make the ONE "obsolete"? Then how?

EPIC will most likely have its advantages over ONE. So will actually a Scarlet or a HV20 in given circumstances... So what?

EPIC is only good and in too many ways to list, even for the ONE owners who will not be upgrading. The most important sign with EPIC/Scarlet is that RED is planning to stay in and shake up this business for years to come.

[Simon Smith]

The Red obsolescence obsolete philosophy is not around the $17,500 anymore, but $40,000.

[Gunleik Groven]

yeah... no... sorta...


I post all my RED stuff @ 2k or 1080 (cept for keying) because there's simply nothing to view 4k in my neighbourhood. To call ONE obsolete, when I don't even have a good reason to use its full potential feels kinda... stupid, maybe?

ONE does not become obsolete because anything else is better. Heck, I could probably still make a good living from the PD-150. Is it obsolete when it makes my bread and butter?
Not to me it isn't...

With the added production value for ONE over 150 (just for arguments sake...) Is it obsolete because there's a 5k cam coming in a year or so?

Guess what? I'm pretty sure RED wil announce another Cam with even better specs than EPIC down the road. Maybe already @ next NAB, but for sure within the next 3 years. And I'd be surprised (like I was now...) if there's another trade in offer.

Untill we have 24 bit (or @ least 16 bit) uncompressed (or similar) cams that you can pick up and carry and record, there will be major technical developments to digital cameras. Count on it. The holy grail would be something like a 24 bit 8k RAW (but not too compressed) cam.
The next step will drop as many jaws as the last did.

then things will eventually flatten out, like they did with audio. Beyond 24bit/96 khz nothing has really happened to the formats, but the signal chain is improved. (yeah, I know you can record 32 bit float, but for arguments sake...) Today even cheapo soundcards comes with the same "technical" specs as the high end stuff. Guess what, they don't all sound the same...

But for now, in video, there is the breaking of these barriers which is some of the fun.

I have an old beast standing here in the studio, a Yamaha 03D I bought the moment it came out. Is it obsolete?
I can still make nice recordings and mixes with it, even though it's "only" 20 bits internal processing... It still makes me money, 10 years on.

Just a thought...

[Pawel Achtel]

The Red obsolescence obsolete philosophy is not around the $17,500 anymore, but $40,000.

I disagree.

Read again what Steve Gibby and Big Jon said.

Red One is still $17.5k and it is not obsolete in any way. It will be fully supported, developed and upgraded for long time.

What is even better, now there is another camera, targeting different market, which gives you a choice, but does not render Red One obsolete.

Likewise, Epic or Red One do not render Scarlet obsolete.

All three are complementary products and each is better focused on the intended market and purpose, which are impossible to serve well with a single camera.

[rod bradley]

I am astonished by those who quibble with Red's munificence which has been beyond the call. But there are, alas, always some who refuse to recognize gallantry, generosity, elegance and insist on slapping at gnats instead of reveling in the miracle of the landscape. May they one day enjoy beyond their picking of nits.

[Andrew M.]

Our production group will order at least eight EPIC cameras, retain around four RED ONE cameras upgraded to Mysterium X (we own seven RED ONE cameras right now), and order at least ten Scarlet cameras.

I am amazed with how fast RED is spreading around.
I walked today in to the rental house, in medium sized city, trying to get some extra gears for my RED.

Asked the guy if he have heard about RED and if he has some mounts for it.

Guy didn’t answer anything, let me in to the stockroom where I saw 10 REDs side by side geared in many different configurations. Second time this month I was speechless. (RED related)
“Yes we support RED here and we have 15 more on order!”

[Mr. Paul White]

The Red obsolescence obsolete philosophy is not around the $17,500 anymore, but $40,000.
Agreed.

[Jon Sagud]

I am astonished by those who quibble with Red's munificence which has been beyond the call. But there are, alas, always some who refuse to recognize gallantry, generosity, elegance and insist on slapping at gnats instead of reveling in the miracle of the landscape. May they one day enjoy beyond their picking of nits.

Fascinating, isn't it? A revolutionary company led by a man whose sole pleasure is in changing the face of high technology marketing and advance, offering multiple levels of technology beyond the competition's for a fraction of the price, establishing tools for independent film makers (RED One) as well as tools for rental houses and large production (Epic) and even offering the individual the perfect personal motion capture tool (need I even say it?) and there are those that find something to complain about. To change the world, with the benefit going to hundreds of thousands of creative people and ultimately to everyone, by virtue of the content produced, and yet there are those that want to criticize it and pick it apart.

I have had the distinct pleasure and honor of seeing the twinkle in Jim's eyes when he comes up with an amazing idea that benefits the customer, as though it was he that reaps the immediate reward. I wish you could all know how much it means to him to get it right. To get it right for the customer and have the customer be treated like no company has ever treated him before.

It is the most amazing part of this journey for me that much of what RED stands for is altruistic and selfless, spearheaded by a man who is not in it for the money, but for the shear joy of accomplishment in changing the rules. I guess it is true that you can't please all the people all of the time. No matter how hard you try, no matter your motivations. It's a crazy world.

[roryhinds]

I've always said Jim is from another planet.

If there is space on the ship Jim, can I come too :-)

[Häakon]

I post all my RED stuff @ 2k or 1080 (cept for keying) because there's simply nothing to view 4k in my neighbourhood. To call ONE obsolete, when I don't even have a good reason to use its full potential feels kinda... stupid, maybe?
I totally understand what you're saying, however I personally feel that the oversampling power of RED's 4K sensor is exactly what makes those 1080p pictures look so amazing. If I needed to be routinely finishing in 4K for whatever reason, I'd want to be using a 6 or 8K camera for acquisition. Obviously we're not there yet, but it's pretty clear at the rate this technology keeps improving that it's not too far off. Anyway, point is that in the way you are using your camera, I believe you are absolutely using its full potential... at least the way I see it.

[Meryem Ersoz]

Will Epic have dual hot swappable card slots like the SCARLET? I don't see them on the renders...just askin