Red Ray

[Ed Watkins]

Ahh.. a media player!
http://red.cachefly.net/nab/red_4k_red_ray_hero.png
Wonder what the RED Ray discs will look like?

* PLAYS 4K, 2K, 1080P, 720P AND SD FROM RED DISC AND RED EXPRESS
* ALSO PLAYS NATIVE RAW R3D FILES FROM COMPACT FLASH

SPECIFICATIONS, DELIVERY DATES AND DESIGN ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE... COUNT ON IT.

[IAN SUN]

Red??

[MikeHedge]

I wonder what the outs will be? can I set this up and feed it to the RED 4k projector? or the Sony 4k???

[Andreas Fernbrant]

Powerbutton and cardreader in the front please!!!

[Luke Boyce]

I have to admit, I'm more curious about this than anything else. I really want to know what this is exactly. Red Express!?!? C'mon guys! Don't get all "Lost" on us, giving us answers that only raise more questions.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Just as Blu Ray had won...

Bwhahahahah.

Red Ray.

I like this game.

:).

[Bruce Allen]

Just as Blu Ray had won...

Bwhahahahah.

Red Ray.

I like this game.

:).

My bet is it would use Blu Ray media.

I think Red has more important things to do than design their own laser or some kinda crazy holographic thing.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Júlio Taubkin]

It's probably a redcode based delivery codec to be recorded to blu-ray. What's the speed on those? 35MB/s? or they are counting on a 2x blu-ray player with 50-70 MB/s?

[Justin Kirchhoff]

maybe dual-laser reader?

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

My bet is it would use Blu Ray media.

I think Red has more important things to do than design their own laser or some kinda crazy holographic thing.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Well, I dunno.

Isn't this exactly - a new kind of media?

[david farland]

Yes...it's weird.

Noticed the 5K epic uses 2 x CF readers....
Guess the new cf standard coming out early next year and records at 100MB/sec.
Dave

[Joseph Hutson]

I saw this 3 days ago...pretty cool.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11517&highlight=Redray

[cjderosa]

Great - And yet i still don't have an EVF - NICE!

[Anders Holck]

I wonder what the outs will be?

Looks like 4xhdmi and 4x HD-SDI from the back render.

[Bing Bailey]

bluray is 56mbits max not megabytes, even with 4x drives thats 224mbit, wouldn't cover redcode 28 never mind 100MB

[Stuart English]

My bet is it would use Blu Ray media.

I think Red has more important things to do than design their own laser or some kinda crazy holographic thing

The 4K RED-RAY uses standard "red" laser DVD media. The delivery codec is so efficient we can provide more than 2 hours of 4K plus audio on one dual layer single sided DVD.

[Bryan Bishop]

The 4K RED-RAY uses standard "red" laser DVD media. The delivery codec is so efficient we can provide more than 2 hours of 4K plus audio on one dual layer single sided DVD.

Um.... wow.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

The 4K RED-RAY uses standard "red" laser DVD media. The delivery codec is so efficient we can provide more than 2 hours of 4K plus audio on one dual layer single sided DVD.

Amazing.:w00t:
Why not go the blue ray way and have higher bitrates?:unsure:
It may have been more futur proof

Emmanuel

[David Wyatt]

The 4K RED-RAY uses standard "red" laser DVD media. The delivery codec is so efficient we can provide more than 2 hours of 4K plus audio on one dual layer single sided DVD.

Clunk! Sorry, just picking my jaw up from the floor...:blink:

[Justin K Phillips]

HeloooOOOooo--today's the 14th, not the first!

0_0

[Mike Prevette]

Jaw = Droped

[Andrew Thomas]

The 4K RED-RAY uses standard "red" laser DVD media. The delivery codec is so efficient we can provide more than 2 hours of 4K plus audio on one dual layer single sided DVD.

Excuse me for being highly skeptical of this claim. Of all the things to come out of RED, this is probably the most unbelievable. Prove me wrong fellas :bleh:

[Nils Ruinet]

The 4K RED-RAY uses standard "red" laser DVD media. The delivery codec is so efficient we can provide more than 2 hours of 4K plus audio on one dual layer single sided DVD.
Wait...:w00t:
You mean like in (much much much) more efficient than H264 ?
Is that even possible ?

Wow. Sony's really gonna hate you.
You just killed BluRay !:ph34r:

[Justin K Phillips]

I'm really curious to see how this magical new codec will handle grain/random noise.

[Steven-Marc C.]

That means we can create media to be read in Redray with any currently available dual-layer DVD burner?

[Adrian T.]

That's about 50K per 4K frame!? Are you sure?

[Craig Harding]

So here are the things I'd want to know:

1. The blurb says:
"* PLAYS 4K, 2K, 1080P, 720P AND SD FROM RED DISC AND RED EXPRESS
* ALSO PLAYS NATIVE RAW R3D FILES FROM COMPACT FLASH"

Are those mutually exclusive? Or when the Red One supports 1080p RGB recording to Red Drive or CF, can the Red Ray play that back from the CF?

2. Can I plug in a Red Drive (powered from the Red Ray) and play back Redcode Raw or 1080p RGB directly?

3. Will it support the camera "look" files for R3D playback?

4. How much? :)

[Hrvoje Simic]

The 4K RED-RAY uses standard "red" laser DVD media. The delivery codec is so efficient we can provide more than 2 hours of 4K plus audio on one dual layer single sided DVD.

WTF!?!?:w00t:

This is major news.

Is this codec going to be available any time soon ?

[IAN SUN]

C'mon Stuart... This must be some kinda scam. :clown2:

[Joseph Hutson]

C'mon Stuart... This must be some kinda scam. :clown2:

Two years ago, ALL of Red was a scam.

[Craig Ryan]

Careful gentlemen..it is still April...lol. Although I do admire the potential irony and pun in "REDRAY" if they are using standard DVD laser technology.

Also, are we going to be able to get RE-re-remastered 4k versions of Star Wars on Redray??

[Brent J. Craig]

Excuse me for being highly skeptical of this claim. Of all the things to come out of RED, this is probably the most unbelievable. Prove me wrong fellas :bleh:

2 Hours of 4K fitting into 50 GB? That's only 5 times more compressed than Redcode 28. Redcode 5.6 anyone?

[Bing Bailey]

RED RAY is based on DVD9 blanks , not bluray, so its 9GB not 50GB. how they'll stuff 2hours of 4k footage onto a 9gb dvd I've no idea. it'll have to be the most sophisticated and amazing compression ever invented.

that information was posted by mike curtis after talking to TED

[Steven-Marc C.]

2 Hours of 4K fitting into 50 GB? That's only 5 times more compressed than Redcode 28. Redcode 5.6 anyone?
It's much worse/better than that! A single-sided dual layer DVD like Stuart mentionned is only 9 GB. So that would be 2 hours of 4K fitting into 9 GB. Redcode... 1 ? :help:

[Vincent Rice]

This unit MUST absolutely have an RS422 or 232 control port. PLEASE! There's a HUGE market awaiting for a cheap controllable HD+ media player.

[antiquaeuropa]

Check out this info: http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mcurtis/story/red_ray_2_hour_4k_playback_for_under_1000from_a_bu rnable_dvd/

Holy crap! I am quite upset about the Scarlet and the Epic announcements, but hot damn this RedRay is one awesome deal.

Too good to be true! :shifty:

On normal DVD's! :w00t:

[Craig Ryan]

lol man first it was the HD-DVD adopters, now everyone went out and went Blu Ray..when now we can just use these *picks up a spire of DVD-Rs* and get 4 *******K!!!!!!

[Luke Boyce]

So will this downrez then? If I compress my footage to the 4k Red Ray codec, but play that footage on a 1080p monitor, I'm assuming it will downrez right?

[Jaime Vallés]

The 4K RED-RAY uses standard "red" laser DVD media. The delivery codec is so efficient we can provide more than 2 hours of 4K plus audio on one dual layer single sided DVD.
It uses regular dual-layer DVDs?!?!?!?! How is this even possible? Stewart, are you on cocaine? Absolutely bonkers!

I want it now!!! :gun:

[David M]

The 4K RED-RAY uses standard "red" laser DVD media. The delivery codec is so efficient we can provide more than 2 hours of 4K plus audio on one dual layer single sided DVD.

So you can have 4K cinema projection of most movies from a single dual-layer DVD?

How much 2K time can you get?

[Bob Torrance]

Something to do with "Red express"? What's that?

bob

[Chris Kenny]

So... the thing has a FW800 port, and can decode REDCODE RAW to RGB at 4K in real-time. Seems like with the right software on the desktop and firmware on the device, you could stream REDCODE RAW to the device out of an editing app over FW400, and cut 4K in real-time with 4K monitoring, basically the same way you can stream DV out over FW400 through a deck to a monitor today.

Has Red given any thought to this? Even if it would be too hard to get this working with, say, Final Cut Pro, it would certainly solve the current issues with RedCine's lack of external monitoring options!

Incidentally, two hours of 4K in 9 GB doesn't seem that crazy for a distribution format. It's about 10 megabits/sec. H.264 can do perfectly watchable 2K at that data rate, and the H.264 spec was finished five years ago.

With the research that has probable happened over the last five years, and with the more complex algorithms that today's faster hardware (and particularly the sort of high-end DSP that could be in something like the Red Ray), 4K at that data rate seems fairly plausible. Especially since larger images are easier to compress in general, i.e. one doesn't expect a 4096x2304 image to take up four times as much space as a 2048x1152 image with anything but the most naive compression algorithm.

[Stuart English]

So you can have 4K cinema projection of most movies from a single dual-layer DVD?

Yes sir.

[Chris Kenny]

Now that I think of it, there's another interesting implication to the fact that the hardware to decode a REDCODE RAW signal at 4K costs less than $1000. Red could presumably take that decoder chip and stick it in a device that interfaced with the Red One (presumably through the side interface where the CF module gets installed) and spat out 1080p or even full 4K for on-set monitoring. And you'd actually be monitoring off the exact compressed signal the camera was recording, so you'd see exactly what you were getting, down to the compression artifacts... kind of like audio recorders that let you monitor from tape.

I wonder if this has been considered.

[Shawn Bannon]

is redray intended for theatrical presentation?

[Stuart English]

is redray intended for theatrical presentation?

Its intended for 4K presentation to a 4K or 2K display - the environment where you place it is your choice.

(And if it only sees an HDTV panel it can downconvert the 4k material to 1080p or 720p)

[IAN SUN]

Its intended for 4K presentation to a 4K or 2K display - the environment where you place it is your choice.

(And if it only sees an HDTV panel it can downconvert the 4k material to 1080p or 720p)

Stuart is this your baby?

This is like the arrival of spring in mid January. Completly unexpected.
You guys are amazing.

[FractureD]

Like I thought, Studios that make movies become the theaters that show them too.

Is this revolution attacking the ENTIRE movie industry chain?!
Very interesting prospects. :)

[Jeremy Neish]

I've been doing digital video compression since pretty much it first existed and I'm really struggling with the idea that what they are claiming is at all possible.

I grilled a Red employee for about 10 minute about how 2+ hours of 4K simply can't fit onto a DVD 9 at any decent quality using any existing or upcoming compression technology. He swore it worked and handed me his card and said I would owe him a beer next year after he proved me wrong. Time will tell.

It now needs an interactive/menu layer. May I suggest HDi spec from HD-DVD, it's way easier to use than BDJ and basically equal in capabilities.

[Craig Harding]

Okay, as more info comes out I have to say this is a big deal. Bravo Red!

[David Wyatt]

I vaguely remember reading recently about people putting Hi-Def footage onto regular DVDs and then the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (r.i.p.) crowd got a bit upset at their big outlay...

[Steven-Marc C.]

I vaguely remember reading recently about people putting Hi-Def footage onto regular DVDs and then the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (r.i.p.) crowd got a bit upset at their big outlay...

Well sure, you can do that today with any H264 codec or DivX, and there are many compatible DVD players with a Sigma Designs chip out there that will read these DivX HD files on regular DVDs. But here we're talking 4K, and hopefully a better codec.

I was following NME's HD-VMD development, which also seemed very interesting from a technological point of view. They also use red laser, but with new multi-layer discs. They were trying to go against Bluray and HD-DVD. But they don't have a burner available unfortunately. www.nmeinc.com

[Stuart English]

I was following NME's HD-VMD development, which seemed very interesting from a technological point of view. They also use red laser, but with multi-layer discs.

Or you use an existing (hence low cost) media and work out the math so that the information you need to represent fits onto that media.

We were told we could not do that (4K REDCODE RAW to CF cards) :matrix: that is the logic again with RED-RAY (4K to DVD-9)

[Gunleik Groven]

What misses in the RedRay equation is panels and projectors... Hm... :)

And the ability to "compress" RGB to "REDRAW" (because it isn't "RAW") after post.

Guess noone thought of that... :)

[Steven-Marc C.]

Stuart, you have all my attention! :)

This could become very interesting (understatement) for indie theatrical digital distribution, as more and more screens get equipped with 2K/4K projectors.

[Michael Brennan]

Red Ray is indeed a very important development.

Red Ray may do to distribution what Red One is doing to acquisition.
Scarlet may do to HDV/P2 what HDV did to Digibeta


Like many others who have suggested ideas involving both products some time back, I'm impressed that Red are listening.


But which end of 2009?




Mike Brennan

[Steven-Marc C.]

Or you use an existing (hence low cost) media and work out the math so that the information you need to represent fits onto that media.

We were told we could not do that (4K REDCODE RAW to CF cards) :matrix: that is the logic again with RED-RAY (4K to DVD-9)
Ok, just to play devil's advocate: By the time Red Ray actually ships (early 2009) Blu Ray burners and media will probably have become much more standard and affordable. 25 GB BD-R are already fairly cheap. Why not also use that higher capacity to your advantage in order to offer less compressed options? Licensing costs?

[Luke Boyce]

I posted this in another thread but wanted to pose the question here: Right now, to me, this is the biggest announcement at NAB. I just feel this is going to be huge. But my question is...What's the point in having something that can output 4k media if you don't have anything that can playback 4k? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you've got $50k to spend on a Sony projector, you're kind of shit-out-of-luck.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Ok, just to play devil's advocate: By the time Red Ray actually ships (early 2009) Blu Ray burners and media will probably have become much more standard and affordable. 25 GB BD-R are already fairly cheap. Why not also use that higher capacity to your advantage in order to offer less compressed options? Licensing costs?

Sony?

[Justin K Phillips]

4k projectors/TVs/monitors may not be commonplace yet, but in the meantime Red Ray can output 1080p and 720p. Then, when you finally do get a 4k display, you can rewatch everything for a whole new experience. I suspect, barring a surprise RED Display announcement, Red Ray will serve its first few years primarily as a downscaling (!) DVD player.

[WesVasher]

Is the compression method a variant of Redcode RAW? Basically RAW in reverse? That is, Red creates an encoding application that would take RGB or even source R3D files and transcode them to Redcode RAW with heavier compression? The Red Ray player has Redcode RAW in silicon for decoding at any bitrate.

[Steve White]

I'm guessing Red is using the following logic with Red Ray:

- At 10 Mbps using the most sophisticated DCT codec available (H.264), it is possible to produce acceptable 1920x1080p 4:2:0 8-bit video at 24 fps.

- Wavelets are 4x more efficient at creating lossless imagery than DCT

- Therefore, at 10 Mpbs, using the most sophisticated wavelet codec available, it should be possible to produce acceptable 4K 8-bit video at 24 fps.

- Depending on what colourspace they use (RAW, RBG, YCrCb) the chroma subsampling may be difficult to define.

I'm really not sure I buy into that math, but I'm curious to see how far wavelets can go. Personally, I'd have preferred if Red Ray used Blu Ray discs and exploited the higher bitrate available.

[WesVasher]

Also, we are kind of stuck with 8 bit displays today but what about tommorrow?

[Joseph Hutson]

I don't know about you, but I was NOT looking forward to paying a ton for Blu Ray Authoring and then have problems so the big studios wouldn't lose from it.

Thank God for Red, who has come along, and done there WHOLE revolution.

The next thing for us to get will be our friends at Apple...with FCS3, be complete with the new compression, along with 4K interactive menus to complement the content.

My hands are kinda shaking as I type. :-)

[Michael Schrengohst]

Yes sir.

Well I just *hit me britches.....

Hell this alone will push R3D and the RED to the....

I don't know where but it will be out there.

When I can I order one???

[Lexicon]

Or you use an existing (hence low cost) media and work out the math so that the information you need to represent fits onto that media.

We were told we could not do that (4K REDCODE RAW to CF cards) :matrix: that is the logic again with RED-RAY (4K to DVD-9)

Well you're sure as hell pissing off the Blu-Ray fanboys. On one of the home theater forums I'm on they are throwing rocks at me because they refuse to believe it's not possible because it didn't come from Sony and it isn't using their beloved Blu-Ray and AVC. Even the VC-1 team member from Microsoft is scratching his head about it. They all want to know EXACTLY what Red Ray is, what purpose it serves in relation to the camera, and how the hell you can compress as much 4K footage as you claim you can without having it look like crap.

[Gunleik Groven]

Sony?

LOL

G

[Siva Kollipara]

We really don't know what exactly has happened between Sony and Jim.
Sony Pissed off at Jim once.
Jim ensuring that Sony gets it back every year :)

[Gunleik Groven]

We really don't know what exactly has happened between Sony and Jim.
Sony Pissed off at Jim once.
Jim ensuring that Sony gets it back every year :)

Actually it was a bit more than once, from my recollection. The known biggies are:

1. refusing RED to show 4k on their projector @ IBC
2. Maybe having a hand in the closing out of the RED for the last James Bond
3. Running direct marketing campaigns towards known RED users, (this is business, but still funny, as far from all RED ONE buyers would consider an F23 anyway)
4. Advising that SONY distributed movies should NOT be shot with RED
5. General badmouthing on all fora and in all business/camera meetings I've been to.
Sorta.

And then there's all we really don't know... :)

G

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Actually it was a bit more than once, from my recollection. The known biggies are:

1. refusing RED to show 4k on their projector @ IBC
2. Maybe having a hand in the closing out of the RED for the last James Bond
3. Running direct marketing campaigns towards known RED users, (this is business, but still funny, as far from all RED ONE buyers would consider an F23 anyway)
4. Advising that SONY distributed movies should NOT be shot with RED
5. General badmouthing on all fora and in all business/camera meetings I've been to.
Sorta.

And then there's all we really don't know... :)

G

source for drama baby

[laguun]

This unit MUST absolutely have an RS422 or 232 control port. PLEASE! There's a HUGE market awaiting for a cheap controllable HD+ media player.

yes, i fully agree. there is thread covering this topic:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=198076&posted=1#post198076

[Steven Caesare]

Well you're sure as hell pissing off the Blu-Ray fanboys. On one of the home theater forums I'm on they are throwing rocks at me because they refuse to believe it's not possible because it didn't come from Sony and it isn't using their beloved Blu-Ray and AVC. Even the VC-1 team member from Microsoft is scratching his head about it. They all want to know EXACTLY what Red Ray is, what purpose it serves in relation to the camera, and how the hell you can compress as much 4K footage as you claim you can without having it look like crap.

Howdy Lex... they _DO_ seem to be in a bit of a snit over there, don't they?

-Steve

[Steve Freebairn]

I've been doing digital video compression since pretty much it first existed and I'm really struggling with the idea that what they are claiming is at all possible.

I grilled a Red employee for about 10 minute about how 2+ hours of 4K simply can't fit onto a DVD 9 at any decent quality using any existing or upcoming compression technology. He swore it worked and handed me his card and said I would owe him a beer next year after he proved me wrong. Time will tell.

It now needs an interactive/menu layer. May I suggest HDi spec from HD-DVD, it's way easier to use than BDJ and basically equal in capabilities.

If anyone would know, it would be Jeremy, his place does some serious programming on DVD/Blu-ray/HD-DVD.

I'm also having a hard time imagining DVD 9s holding 4k at 2 hours. If Blu-rays were used for 4k 2 hour movies and dvd 9s were used for 1080p 2 hour movies, I'd believe it in a heart beat, but I hope to be proved wrong on this.

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

What about movies longer than 2 hours? What about special features?

It would be awesome (and hilarious) for this to supercede Blu-Ray, but I'm going to have to place myself in the "skeptical" camp until we see more.

[Stuart English]

If anyone would know, it would be Jeremy, his place does some serious programming on DVD/Blu-ray/HD-DVD.

I'm also having a hard time imagining DVD 9s holding 4k at 2 hours. If Blu-rays were used for 4k 2 hour movies and dvd 9s were used for 1080p 2 hour movies, I'd believe it in a heart beat, but I hope to be proved wrong on this.

We fully respect expertise in current technologies, and also respect healthy skepticism about the compression claims we make for RED-RAY.

However current realities can change - as RED-ONE has demonstrated. And we are motivated by that challenge.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

We fully respect expertise in current technologies, and also respect healthy skepticism about the compression claims we make for RED-RAY.

However current realities can change - as RED-ONE has demonstrated. And we are motivated by that challenge.

I'm a believer:red_bandana:

Emmanuel

[Stephen Gentle]

What about movies longer than 2 hours? What about special features?

It would be awesome (and hilarious) for this to supercede Blu-Ray, but I'm going to have to place myself in the "skeptical" camp until we see more.

When the burners get cheap enough, I think that Blu-Ray media would be pretty good for REDRAY. If you can fit 2 hours on a DVD9, then you should be able to fit nine or ten hours on a dual layer BD-Rom.

I doubt the format would superceed Blu-ray movies though - there's still many consumers who don't even have an HD television... Although it would be great for future proofing, since it's supposed to be able to downscale to 1080p. So when you get a bigger, higher res TV, instead of replacing all your movies and your media player, you could just plug in more of the HDMI outputs.

[Joseph Hutson]

When the burners get cheap enough, I think that Blu-Ray media would be pretty good for REDRAY. If you can fit 2 hours on a DVD9, then you should be able to fit nine or ten hours on a dual layer BD-Rom.


Stuart, you just need to make the compression not work on Blu-Ray. :-)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

We fully respect expertise in current technologies, and also respect healthy skepticism about the compression claims we make for RED-RAY.

However current realities can change - as RED-ONE has demonstrated. And we are motivated by that challenge.

I'm a believer... Compression algorithms can take many different forms and wavelets and even fractal compression is the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_compression

I dabbled with fractal compression and encryption in the mid to late '90s. WikiPedia doesn't have the whole picture correct there. It's possible to create lossless fractal algorithms as well, compute times are often intensive to produce quality fractal representations though. So for delivery on RED RAY, we may be looking at some long render times (really long). But I'm also making a blind assumption here. I'm just pointing out that, given my own experiences, I see one possible avenue that RED may take.

[Craig Ryan]

I think the whole point of using standard DVD-9 is to simply revolutionize the industry. If they were to use BluRay, not only would they be using Sony technology, but there wouldn't be any significant reason for studios, much less the average Joe to be interested in it. I mean 1080p is just catching on, I'm pretty sure even less people give a rats ass about 4k. So to REALLY make REDray appealing, they go for a way CHEAPER media but with much HIGHER quality (4k vs 1080p) in order to get attention. Of course, they could exploit the technology of BluRay to their advantage from a technical standpoint, but then that would totally destroy the whole allure of it being revolutionary. Thats just the way I see it.

[Luke Boyce]

I don't doubt that Red will figure out a brilliant compression scheme to make this a reality and they're already testing different techniques in Europe regarding burning to red laser media.

The thing I want to know though is some of the smaller stuff. What about dvd menus? Has it been discussed whether or not this is just some regular chip drive that plays a compression format, sort of like Divx players. You'll just burn the compressed file onto a disc and the Red Ray begins playing it? Or are we talking actually attempting to create a new type of optical market. Where you'll be able to create menus, chapters, etc?

[Lexicon]

I think we'll know the answer in time.

[Jeff Coatney]

I regret I was unable to speak with Stuart English this NAB. However, I did speak with Graeme at some length about the RED RAY. As far as compression is concerned, Graeme alluded to "Something special" being at the heart of the system. He was also very understated about it, which led me to believe that it has already been worked out and the challenge now is hardware integration (my opinion). It says a lot that RED RAY held the coveted spot in the last case in the booth. I have no doubts about the system, Jim is not going to extend himself like that without being able to back it up.

[CK Olsen]

I'm a believer... Compression algorithms can take many different forms and wavelets and even fractal compression is the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_compression

So for delivery on RED RAY, we may be looking at some long render times (really long). But I'm also making a blind assumption here. I'm just pointing out that, given my own experiences, I see one possible avenue that RED may take.

Regarding the "render times" (meaning compression encoding time) the word in the booth on Wednesday was that a Red Ray encode for a full feature is highly intensive, and would at the minimum likely be an overnight process, perhaps even two, for that initial data compress...

Of course, for those of you used to working with intensive VBR encoding, when you compare average SD/HD VBR times against RED's much larger pixel count, this reallly isn't that bigh of a surprise....

[Stacey Spears]

The current VC-1 and AVC encoders for offline (Blu-ray) are under 10x for encode time. They use distributed models. The more machines, the faster the encode.

The best time we have seen for VC-1, on $250k+ HP HW was 1.8x realtime. This was faster than the Sony realtime MPEG2 encoder, which is realtime per pass. They all use two pass systems for the initial encode.

4-5x is more common for VC-1. 8x is probably more common for AVC.

[Jeff Coatney]

Much like a film projector is similar to a film camera, I have the sense that much of RED RAY's architecture could be based on the RED ONE's circuitry. Since they've already worked out high-speed writing of 4K data to CF from the imager using the RED RAW codec, why not simply (or not so simply) reverse the dataflow? RED RAW carries a great deal of information natively like metadata and high fps. But during playback of a finished, color-corrected film, much of the original RAW information could be discarded since having the editable flexibilty of RAW is no longer necessary, thus lowering the amount of data per frame to compress. Then instead of going from imager to debayer to disk or CF, you go from CF or DVD to distributed processing to output. The player also wouldn't need more than 24 or 30fps, so even though higher frame rates are possible with RED RAW, they would not be used during a playback function because playback is fixed at a standardized frame rate, saving more potential bandwidth.

[Estill]

I wonder how the public will take this piece of information when word gets out....I think positive...We do like choices you know...

[Dave Cooper]

I can see one way of squeezing down a 4K movie to fit onto a DVD-R but I would imagine you'd need an extremely powerful decoding chip.

This is one item I'm really looking forward to besides Scarlett.

[Hologram]

for all of you concerned about render time check this thread and the link in it http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11916

they talk about realtime blu ray encoding and render time for video compression 10-20x faster than before. Nvidia claim that they ll work this year about improving everything concerning video processing/encoding

[Dj Joofa]

I can see one way of squeezing down a 4K movie to fit onto a DVD-R but I would imagine you'd need an extremely powerful decoding chip.


Actually not, as long as Red does it properly. The way current compression is done in encoders and decoders, the complexity of encoders is much more (as it has to find the optimal parameters for compression) but the decoder is reduced complexity (since given the "optimal" set of parameters, it just does some fixed operations). And Red Ray does not even have to deal with issues that plague current decoders such as packet loss (typically on the internet), packet delay, packet re-ordering etc. Therefore, its decompression should be very fast by a decoder.

Such design is not by accident, but by careful planning so that off-line encoding may be cumbersome, but decoding can be made as real-time as possible.

[oedipus]

The timing seems impeccable: Apple still seem not to have jumped onboard with BluRay and Microsoft could come onboard with a lot less face-saving than having to wholeheartedly adopt Sony's format.
Where future-proofing might be applied is in thinking how multiple players could talk to each other so that longer times could be achieved or stereoscopic playback realised. Could you even increase the bit depth by use of multiple projectors locked to each other? Or maybe the optical drive becomes increasingly a legacy feature and the CF slot (which already is capable of holding in excess of a standard DL DVD and may surpass DL BD in time) becomes the removable media slot.
Still, 2 hours of 4k on a DL DVD. Should I start rendering now so that my movie's ready for when Red Ray launches?

[Júlio Taubkin]

It doesn't seem that hard to me. I mean, hard, yes, but not impossible. I can download sometimes 1K quicktimes here at 20MB for 30s, that although not free from artifacts look great (boat trip is a nice example). Basically, 400MB (0,4GB) for 100 minutes. Make it 16x the ammount of information, and that's 6,4 GB using nothing more than H264. Making something smarter that looks better and weights the same should be possible, even if it's not an easy task.

I was talking to a friend seeing that clip, how can a 20MB file on my computer look so incredible. And how late was video playback technology compared to digital deliveries...

[Ivan D. Young]

Remember, Blu-Ray is not just a strict video or audio format. The benefit of Blu-ray on a larger scale is the volume of data storage, 25 or 50 gb. For those out there that need uncompressed storage Blu-Ray is much needed compared to DVD and 9 gb. Many places and people don't really use proper storage and back up technologies ,i.e. home users. Blu-ray in that light is a Godsend for storage. Sony just wrapped everything else into the format as well, they are after all a very vertically integrated company. Red laser technology (actual red lasers, not RedRay) is very mature at this point and with compression and quality hard wired chips in the player, this seems very possible.

Also don't forget, many of the media companies obviously don't want end users to have these advanced compression technologies and so they spoon feed us small increments at a time. The Red company really upset the industry by giving us camera capabilites that would of taken the other guys another ten years to incrementally spoon feed us. Looks they are poised to do that again with player technology.

looking forward to more info about RedRay.

[Ivan D. Young]

One more thing, If Sony can take one part of their technology and populate thier whole product line, why can't Red. I think it is only logical to make a player based on the same compression that they use to capture, they did spend years working on this, maximize and leverage your hard work.:weight_lift:

[theatereleven]

They just need to get with it because I already started my blu-ray movie collection! =)

Was so relieved that the new Beta vs. VHS war was finally over...now it looks like we've just begun. So is this going to in fact turn blu-ray into the "laser disc" of this era????

[Ben Holmes]

Umm. Just wanted to go on record on this first post in the forum as saying that RED RAY will be the most important product RED has ever announced. More than the cameras. Really. Just wanted it on record for bragging rights.

That's all. Move along.

[Jaime Vallés]

They just need to get with it because I already started my blu-ray movie collection! =)

Was so relieved that the new Beta vs. VHS war was finally over...now it looks like we've just begun. So is this going to in fact turn blu-ray into the "laser disc" of this era????
Well, I think Blu-ray will be with us for a while, since all the studios are now releasing their movies on that format. I'm assuming RED hasn't made any arrangements with the studios to sell movies in Red-ray. Right? RIGHT??? :shiftyph34r:

[Joseph Hutson]

I am ready for the studios to quit choosing what format...it needs to be the people's choice.

I know I am not the only one who feels that way, but MAN! C'mon

[MichaelP]

A Red Ray player for under $1K with HDMI and more consumer type output would fit the consumer market to compete with Blu Ray. But as mentioned, it is more than just a format - there is interactivity, Internet connectivity, DRM, etc, before studios use it as a content delivery mechanism. With the data rates mentioned, a download delivery method is certainly not out of the question.

DRM would also be needed for digital cinema applications, again not impossible, but all of this is more than the essence format.

I think for starters this is a great post production tool for dailies review, sequence review, pre-screenings, and with VTR slave type capabilities would be used on all mix stages as the picture reference.

All of it is possible, some require more or less work.


Michael

[theatereleven]

I am ready for the studios to quit choosing what format...it needs to be the people's choice.

I know I am not the only one who feels that way, but MAN! C'mon

I hear you, but honestly don't trust "the people" to do anything!!!

Just want a format to keep THE MOVIE COLLECTION!!!!!!!!!!! =)

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

A 4K copy of Ben-Hur for me, please? Thanks.

And... 1 RED RAY player + RED 4K Projector setup? Thanks again.

Oh, and another 4K copy of Dances With Wolves too. Please?

Thanks. Thank you so much. You're most kind.

(leaves with a mysterious smile on his face and a bag full of new toys :) )

[10s]

Red Ray sounds like the BIG APP that will change many many things. Blu ray was fun while it lasted ....maybe it could continue as a great archive format but REDRAY could be the Cinema (home & public theatre) delivery system. Is this the MONEY maker for RED?... it sure looks like it. I wonder if the codec alone would be viable for VOD transmission?

Go Jannard & team!

[CK Olsen]

This may have already have been said, but since the disc itself would not be proprietary, it'd be pretty cool to have options for burning 25-50 GB of 4K Redcode to a Bluray disc, in addition to the present plan for 9 GB on a DL-DVD...
Think about it... if Redray looks that good on a 9GB disk, just imagine how it would look with 3-6 times the data rate.

[androbot2084]

As far as Sony being the undisputed leader in compression technology Sony is still advocating analog compression schemes like interlace scanning and they call this obsolete technology full high definition. I like to call it for what it really is which is a scrambled picture. Unfortunately the Olympics may be broadcasted in MPEG-2 1080i and not enough bandwidth will be allocated for a decent picture. Sony's attitude of course will be that bad things happen to people that dare to complain when the picture blocks up.

Of course Sony's Blu-Ray movies are in progressive scan because not even the almighty Sony can convince the movie industry to embrace interlace scanning. But Red-Ray will allow 4k movie broadcasting or 2k sports broadcasting without taking up too much bandwidth.

[Dj Joofa]

Unfortunately the Olympics may be broadcasted in MPEG-2 1080i and not enough bandwidth will be allocated for a decent picture.

Being broadcast in MPEG-2 does not necessarily mean MPEG-2 compression. MPEG-2 transport scheme can carry many different types of compressions (it is just a wrapper, say like a Quicktime/AVI file wrapper), and can and does carry compression other than MPEG-2.

MPEG-2 transport layer is different than MPEG-2 compression.

[Stuart English]

Being broadcast in MPEG-2 does not necessarily mean MPEG-2 compression. MPEG-2 transport scheme can carry many different types of compressions (it is just a wrapper, say like a Quicktime/AVI file wrapper), and can and does carry compression other than MPEG-2.

MPEG-2 transport layer is different than MPEG-2 compression.

True, but at least in the US, the Olympics will be broadcast in 1080i using MPEG-2 compression (with too few bits to do a decent job)

[Dj Joofa]

True, but at least in the US, the Olympics will be broadcast in 1080i using MPEG-2 compression (with too few bits to do a decent job)

Sad to hear that. May be due to the widespread availability of MPEG-2 decoders out there.

[Eryc Tramonn]

So you can have 4K cinema projection of most movies from a single dual-layer DVD?

How much 2K time can you get?

Wouldn't it equate to something like 4x as much material?

[number6]

Sorry mods... I will self-censor henceforth.:blush: