RED triples income! More customers, more sales.

[Greg Voevodsky]

Even though, I do not care about SD. I have read other arguments and seen Red's competitors offer what many working pro's need. A transition from SD to HD. (I know with REDcine, RED can make standard definition).

However, from other working pros both in the USA and abroad, RED would triple their sales (I believe) if they provided solutions to improved standard definition now - such that the working man now, still delivering 80%+ of their content in SD can do both HD and SD in real time with RED.

Like Sony, Panasonic and others that creates a smart bridge to upgrade their customers, RED should reach out to what 80% of the market that still is and that is delivering SD. DVDs will be here for another 10 years... and so will SD around the world.

If RED, like their smart competition, can create a bridge to HD, RED should sell alot more units and be more viable - even though some of our egos may be hurt. (Remember Ferrari now has automatic paddle shifters and not a manly stick) and now they sell more. (I still like my stick over an automatic or paddle shifter) However, the market likes automatic and SD, so us enthusiast, need to suck it up and provide both... SD and HD to sell more.

RED will have more sales with SD included than without. REDs current market is not the high end Hollywood Studio renters of Panavision and ARRI (yet), but those working people who shoot with DVX cameras in SD and the rest of us (indi filmmakers) who can't wait to shoot HD or 4k with the big guys...

Please, just build a bridge for those working guys and RED will truly find a larger market and succeed.

[John Allardice]

Redcine will output to 480 or 576.. and I'm sure it'll drop a 3:2 pulldown in there as well.

J

[Stephen Williams]

However, from other working pros both in the USA and abroad, RED would triple their sales (I believe) if they provided solutions to improved standard definition now - such that the working man now, still delivering 80%+ of their content in SD can do both HD and SD in real time with RED.


Hi Greg,

I believe there is a big market for a Red lite, a surprise for NAB 2008!

Stephen

[Brook Willard]

I hope they add internal VHS support as well.

[Ace]

And 16 picture modes including sepia and mosaic.

[Alexander Nikishin]

I hope they add internal VHS support as well.

And a laser disc recording unit.

[Ace]

Betamax

http://kyoproject.com/sd.jpg

[Jay A. Kelley]

Joking is fine, but Greg is right.. In the end it's about money. We need every advantage we can get and while HD is the way of the future, we need to make the money back on the camera TODAY. By providing a turn-key SD clip to disk or flash, RED insures that both users, SD, HD, and HD cinema alike, all have a good reason to use the camera. Like it or not, SD production still far outweights HD of any kind.

It's not a small request, and it has been made by many people, including myself.

If team RED can't or won't provide this feature then that's fine, but a lot of people on here have decided to make one last passioned plea for it.

Jay

[Chris Gearhart]

And a Pixelvision mode!

[Andrew Benz]

You guys forget the all important "wedge in picture"!

All joking aside Greg, I think the REDCINE program may offer us help for those that need a solution.

[feb31films]

I love Pixelvision!!! Seriously, if you have the scratch to get the Red system (and I'm talking more than the $17,500 for the body) then you are ready & serious about shooting HD and beyond. At least you should be! However, just because you buy a Red One, does not mean you have to STOP using your DVX100 or HVX200 or whatever. If it's a lower paying SD job, whip out the old DVX and go to town. If you have a client that has shown interest in moving to HD, shoot their next project with Red One and show them what they've been missing! For many producer's, seeing is believing and most will pay the higher price for a a vastly superior product. Don't forget to adjust your rate card accordingly!

[Ace]

You guys forget the all important "wedge in picture"!

All joking aside Greg, I think the REDCINE program may offer us help for those that need a solution.

Heh heh, the good ole wedge in.. Reds very first obscure inside joke

[Jay A. Kelley]

I think by now most people know REDcine will offer 480p. I believe the concern is that those that shoot SD place a premium on speed and space. A turnkey Quicktime file or the like is what they are after
Jay

[Dominic Jones]

And a Pixelvision mode!
Man, I *love* Pixelvision!! Maybe the Red can have a built in C90 drive for this function?!!

Lol!

Seriously though, SD delivery is still a big part of the market, and saying that it can be done in RedCine is all good and well but a lot of the time the client wants to walk away with deliverables at the end of the day's shoot, not tomorrow, the day after, etc. Also, a lot of the time I'm going straight on to another job, and won't have the time to faff about with converting footage.

It is something that needs serious consideration, I think, for those of us who work professionally.

[Stuart English]

The point about delivering standard definition is well understood. But we just don't record directly in SD - just as neither does a film camera. Our path to SD is via the REDCINE application, and as long as the process is fast, and your client has their takeaway, they shouldn't care one jot frankly that you shot the footage in RAW or RGB HD.

We are very interested in this RAW for SD dialaog, so comments are welcome - for example what kind of deliverables do the clients want etc ....?

[Dominic Jones]

Thanks Stuart - I think perhaps a lot of the issue comes down to no-one having any idea what the demosaic/scale to SD time will be for a couple of hours of footage on a pretty standard laptop.

Once that information becomes available it'll be a much clearer discussion. I think many, myself included, are just a little worried about the render times for such an operation...

As far as deliverables go, I would think that DV25 and DV50 QT files would be fine for most jobs, with perhaps 8 and 10 bit uncompressed options for anything really heavy duty (or those on SD ego kicks!). That's my 0.02, anyway - I'm sure others will have other requirements to add.

[Steve Gibby]

IMO this is another thread that should be moved to the EFP/ENG for RED forum...

[Dominic Jones]

IMO this is another thread that should be moved to the EFP/ENG for RED forum...
Sounds fair to me....

[Paris Remillard]

Also, the company is called Red Digital Cinema. I truely don't mean that to sound negative or condescending or anything like that. It just seems to me that their goal from the outset was to make a film equivalent digital cinema camera and so the features are geared toward that goal. As opposed to most HD type cameras that came before, for which cinema was usually an unintended byproduct. It's great that they are listening to peoples wants as Stuart just mentioned, since the camera is certainly capable of much less than full-on 4k cinema, and so has a versatility that most other cameras or no other camera has had yet. I guess I try to think about it as a 35mm film camera that just happens to record data to disk, instead of a really good video camera. If it's a project that I would have wanted to shoot on film, I'll shoot on RED. If it's something that I'd have shot on video, I'll shoot on video. But that's just me. I'm not trying to invalidate anyone elses goals or uses for the camera in any way. Because it is potentially more versatile than either 35mm or HD and can do both with a little effort. Just trying to offer my opinions on why most features aren't geared toward the typical ENG/EFP video market.

[Rogelio Salinas]

Maybe further in the future after the success of the RED One , RED may work with or create an affilliate to produce high quality SD or consumer quality HD cameras for home use, but I know that their passion is with professional quality Ultra HD. Either way the future looks bright for RED.

[Steve Gibby]

Parisem,

I disagree. Red One was conceived and designed from the very outset as a digital cinema camera that was to be scalable and flexible enough to be easily re-lensed, and re-accessorized for effective use in a broad range of electronic field production (EFP) genres. The EFP capabilities were not an afterthought, but rather a conscious implementation on RED's part to make the camera usable across a broad range of cine-style and EFP style production genres. If you accurately track the interviews with RED team members, and the search function of the various RED forums for the past 16 months, you'll find that this subject has been discussed at length many times. If you choose to only do cine-style projects with RED One, that's your choice. If someone chooses to only do EFP style projects with RED One, that's their choice. The most fiscally productive use of RED One would be to use it to its maximum designed potential - in a broad range of cine-style and EFP style productions.

[IAN SUN]

Gibby, you're Da Man!

[Adam Jeal]

And a Pixelvision mode!

Don't knock pixelvision! It''s cool:biggrin:

[tj williams]

About Pixel vision etc. thats funny like "hey look you dropped your money down a manhole" funny maybe but limited?? If 80% of the folks in the world were watching pixel vision I'd frankly want to shoot in it! Bottom line "it's about the money" A bunch of the people on this board, ready to disparage SD were shooting some DV Indy last year. So now SD is beneath you??? This is a serious deal, SD very quickly delivered like right off the mag means money in my pocket and RED camera sales which will further aid the cameras general acceptance. I challenge thos who deride SD shooting to show us the money!
Publish your list of HD projects here.

There is a division here. Between people trying to move up to better work by buying a better camera, and others of us who have well established businesses which shoot across formats.

I've made my living at this for over 25 years. I do shoot a lot of SD. both US and European, (NTSC and PAL) Basically I'm a shooter for hire and I want all the days I can get every year. I use my real name here, anyone who wants can call me on the phone or IMDB me.

I am a camera (and other gear) Owner Operator. I get a day rate and if I own the right camera for the job I get the camera rental also.

Currently when I shoot PAL SD I pay a rental for the camera in my market a PAL broadcast camera package averages about $800 US per day. I would like to have some of that money. Some wouldn't accept the RED but some would and I would put the money in my pocket.

I own other SD cameras. I am not going to buy another Sony SD at this point so I'm looking for a camera which will continue to provide SD output instead of putting new heads, and increasing maintenance costs, in my current cameras. This is not trivial money with the Sony Broadcast camcorders.

Some of the HD days I shoot with our Sony HDcam are like the last day I shot last week. It was a commercial for a regional chain of Pizza Restaurants. They took the HD that evening and downconverted it through a Davinci to SD for broadcast. It is now running in this market. The reason my client chose to shoot HD for SD broadcast is that the output is oversampled by the HDcam and looks better than most SD footage it is in his view comparable to our previous shoot in 35mm film. (I don't actually agree with this so lets not go there) If I could shoot with the RED Camera and output oversampled RGB directly to SD. My client would get into editing earlier that evening and he would save the cost of the Davinci transfer. As I would set up the RED for the look we agreed on. This would allow me to sell the RED into a wide market for low ball spots here which currently will not absorb my and my crews rate, and HD level rental and THE DAVINCI ROOM.

I usually have a pretty good sense of humor so I hope those reading will excuse my inability to appreciate SDJokes when we are talking about money in my pocket. .

[Jay A. Kelley]

We are very interested in this RAW for SD dialaog, so comments are welcome - for example what kind of deliverables do the clients want etc ....?

Stuart, are you talking about recording a RAW SD format in camera? Can you be a little more clear here so I know what you are talking about?
Jay

[Andrew Benz]

I usually have a pretty good sense of humor so I hope those reading will excuse my inability to appreciate SDJokes when we are talking about money in my pocket. .
Hi Tj,

I thought it was fairly understood that we would have an option or two through REDcine, we will find out more at NAB. If there is something seriously lacking, the RED team will make it available through firmware or software upgrades in order of importance. Please understand that no one is making fun of SD requirements (well most :wink: ), Gibby has (as usual) pointed out some very good points for this addition to our current (read many) revenue streams. I am an owner operator myself with ten years under my belt, so I understand. We are getting a very flexible tool that we can all make serious money with, especially if you already have the built in business.

So with all the stress and insanity of the past few weeks, we do not need to turn on one another and just take a little time and laugh a little. This is the calm before the very big storm and we are all going to have to depend on one another for information.

Happy shooting Tj and I sincerely look forward to meeting you and swapping stories someday.

Cheers and smile my friend,

Andrew Benz

ps, As Acehole pointed out it is nice to have an obscure inside joke to laugh about --- as opposed to being the butt of hatred jokes -- it serves to blow off a little steam...

[Brook Willard]

Looks like this thread's got enough viewers to safely transmogrify it. :)

[Chris Gearhart]

Sorry! :innocent: My pixelvision comment was not meant to deride the value of any other post or concern--I just like saying that word! And frankly, I don't think we say it enough around here.

And now, I'll sing a song about pixelvision. . . .

[Jay A. Kelley]

Sorry! :innocent: My pixelvision comment was not meant to deride the value of any other post or concern--I just like saying that word! And frankly, I don't think we say it enough around here.

And now, I'll sing a song about pixelvision. . . .

We're listening...

:sick:

[Ken Willinger]

TJ, I'm in the same boat as you regarding SD. I was hoping that this camera could serve as a bridge. There is no other camera on the market now for professional use that will give you both HD (in all it's flavors) and SD that I know of (possibly the new Panny models, 2000, 3000 and 500?). And yes, SD is at this point the majority of by bread and butter. I'm getting more calls for HD but it is still far from being the most requested format...at least in my market.

[Chris Gearhart]

We're listening...

:sick:


Hello pixels my old friend,
I've come to film with you again.
Because my panasonic is beeping;
Left a red-x while I was sleeping.

And the vision, that was planted in my brain,
Still remains
Within the sound, of CrO2.

In restless dreams I filmed along;
Jim Jannard's got it bass-ack wrong.
Fish-erPrice true-ly set-me a-gape,
When they put my videe oh on-c'ss'tte tape.

Am I brill-ee-ant or a pah-thetic goo-oober?
Toysumer.

To record the sound,
of vision.

[Paris Remillard]

Gibby,
I'm sure you've tracked the camera better than I have so I'm sure you're right. I was just offering my opinion based on what I've seen and read, that's all. The specs ,the accessories, lens mount, the sensor size, digital negative, workflow, etc... are all from Cinema standards, not ENG standards, so it seemed/seems to me that Cinema was their primary goal. Also, I'm not an EFP/ENG guy so I'm not really that aware of that market and so I'm sure that I've just been viewing the camera from another perspective. I know that they intended for it to be scalable for all types of production and that there is a B4 mount option and all of that, but I didn't realize that that was one of their primary goals from the outset. I thought that it was just a nice little (or big for the EFP market) bonus. As I said before, though, I think it's great/amazing that it's that versatile that it can be used for both. Imagine trying to use a Panavision for ENG. Anyway, I just wanted to be clear, as I tried to do in my last post, that I was just offering an opinion, or possible suggestion, as to why certain EFP features are not standard while cinema standards are. But, I'm happy to be wrong.

[Chris Gearhart]

Wouldn't REDCINE take care of down conversion pretty well, though? Wavelet compression should be pretty clean at 1080, 720, or SD.

[Steven Parker]

Am I brill-ee-ant or a pah-thetic goo-oober?
Toysumer.

To record the sound,
of vision.

That is FANTASTIC. Lakeview, you know us too well....

Oh - and if I can deliver SD goods to client thru RedCine fast enough to make tham happy - I sure as heck will. DV25/50 QTs indeed seem just about right, especially on a cheap external drive the client can plug right into their editing setup...

SD is about 25% of my work so that's not why I'm getting a Red. But if it's possible RED should support it. Options are everything.

[tj williams]

After all Lakeview all of our visions are really pixel...
wonderful lyrics don't ever make only the sound of silence...

DAn and you are still talking about RED cine downconverts. the problem may be rendering time. No one yet knows, the time to render out a days shoot of eng maybe 2+ hours of material. Time constraints on SD producers are big time. If we can deliver right off the drive even send the drive home with them that night if they are local. With the SD right there to edit. we will def. get more jobs...This should still richen the image thru oversampling making stunning SD...such as it is...