People WAKE UP

[Many Moosh]

For those who are asking to put Nikon lenses on, thats just the stupidest thing I've heard, and if you don't know why it's stupid, then please don't waste your money on a camera, but instead, go to Amazon.com and pick up a book.

And for those who are asking for B mount or C mount lenses, stop asking for things you don't need. And trust me you don't need interchangeable lenses. The truth if your an indie filmmaker, you can't afford to rent or buy good pro glass.

Wake the F*7K up people, your asking the red team to add a feature, that your willing to shell out more money for, which you can't afford to take advantage of, only never to use it. Come on folks WAKE UP.

[Matt Setnes]

Your comment speaks towards a filmmaker, and I agree.

For a cinematographer, I disagree

[Mike Bozulich]

Wow. Are you trolling for trouble? Heh. With a post like that you're sure to get some angry responses. However, I essentially agree with what you're saying. And if people are as "serious" about this stuff as they saying they are... well get a Red! Or rent one! What too expensive? Right... so stop asking for features on the Scarlet that will raise the price.

[Many Moosh]

I disagree with your disagreement bluestar *LOL*

Seriously though, most professional cinematographers aren't gonna be working with the scarlet. Unless your a pro cinematographer working for an indie film, in which case, pro glass is still out of the questions cause it's just to expensive to have on a indie shoot.

[Tom Lowe]

fuckin noobs...

[John Wee]

fuckin noobs...

Tom, this is just the beginning, wait till these kiddies start getting their cams. Imagine the horror....

[Matt Setnes]

I think you're wrong. Professionals will be using this camera. It's aimed for a variety of professionals, not just the rich. Glass can be rented, borrowed, etc.

Take this into consideration. I buy the Red One, I buy the prime set. Scarlet comes up. I want to buy it because of its size and mobility. With the Scarlet, the rates will definitely be lower than the Red One, but now why as a cinematographer, should I limit my craft to a fixed lens when I have so many lenses(not the primes)?

I seriously only think this lens issue is for the camera men, not the filmmakers.

[Many Moosh]

Come one Tom, get real. From reading this form, there's idiots from both the Noobs and old timers camp. But I thought that guys with at least 1, 948 posts wouldn't be asking for feature like interchangeable lenses on a camera with this price point.

And by the way, if you read the forms, there's guys here with over 200 posts asking the red team to put Nikon Lenses on the scarlet. I guess having many posts doesn't make you the sharpest tool in the shed.

[Ameer Azari]

For those who are asking to put Nikon lenses on, thats just the stupidest thing I've heard, and if you don't know why it's stupid, then please don't waste your money on a camera, but instead, go to Amazon.com and pick up a book.

And for those who are asking for B mount or C mount lenses, stop asking for things you don't need. And trust me you don't need interchangeable lenses. The truth if your an indie filmmaker, you can't afford to rent or buy good pro glass.

Wake the F*7K up people, your asking the red team to add a feature, that your willing to shell out more money for, which you can't afford to take advantage of, only never to use it. Come on folks WAKE UP.

I'm sorry but who are you to decide what people can and can't afford, are YOU their budget Advisor?

If RED ship the scarlet with a detachable 8x lens like the CANON XL series then Indies can keep the lens on because "they can't afford other lenses" and people who can afford other lenses can change the lenses.

Also, if indies can't afford 35mm glass, then why were the REDROCK M2, the LETUS Extreme, and the Brevis invented? are they pro-only accessories?

I'm sorry but your post is very ignorant, we're all entitled to our requests and we know what we can afford, so please don't go around telling us what we can and cannot buy
:ranting2:

I would like to see an audio option on the Scarlet as well.

[Nik Manning]

I understand what he meant but I just don't think it came out properly. He is saying the masses tht will purchase the scarlet cam will be super indie film makers. If you want to be a big time DP then move up to the RED cam. Makes sense and I even think that is how RED is selling it. Now I can see schools like Full Sail buying 30 Scarlet cams for there film classes. I would love to have a HPX500 with a built in lens for 8k or something. RED you folks have done it again.

[Many Moosh]

Bluestar,

Your right, if you have the Red One camera already, there's no denying that interchangable lenses make sense. You can use your existing lenses with scarlet. But lets look at who this camera is targeted for, it's not targeted for the pro guys, thats what Epic and Red are for. This camera is for the DVX crowd. Now how many guys do you know from that group that have friends that they can borrow pro glass from, or can afford to buy or even rent pro glass. Very few.The Red Team are not idiots. They priced the scarlet ($3000.00) for a targeted crowd, and again that crowd can't get near pro glass

[Mike Bozulich]

See this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11786

Hey Tom, gonna call Jim a "f*cking noob" too?

[Nik Manning]

Yes this is for the DVX/HVX crowd. This will really eat into there market share.

[Matt Setnes]

Manning. I think the big question is whether Red is targeting the filmmaker or the DP.

[Many Moosh]

Hey Ameer Alley,

I never claimed to be anyones finical adviser.

Do some research and you'll quickly discover that pro glass is out of the reach of most indie film makers. If you sign up for an account with Pro IMDB, you'll find (in they're independent film section) that the budget for most indie films is the cost of a set of good pro glass. In other words, 80% of indie films can't afford pro glass. And since this camera is targeted towards the indie crowd, adding feature that is never gonna get used, but only raise the cost, is ridiculous.

[Ameer Azari]

perhaps they can give us a better lens

[Many Moosh]

Hey Ameer,

I second that. A better fixed lens will do more good for the indie crowd then a interchangeable lens anyday.

[Matt Setnes]

To everyone: I think the big question is whether Red is targeting the filmmaker or the DP.

You guys keep saying the target is the DVX crowd, etc. Truth is, it's been a day and no one knows who the target is. If it is aimed at the prosumer level, then they're on the right path and I'm sure panny and sony are shaking in their boots as they know Jim is now capable of anything. I would think removing the fixed lens and creating a whole new line of lenses for scarlet would offer a larger advantage in the market and more profit than the low 3,000 they're aiming for. Just sayin'

[Many Moosh]

Hey Bluestar,

True, its too early to know who the scarlet is target for. But from the facts we have so far, its a safe bet to say that scarlet is targeted towards the indie filmmaker. First the price point, secondly the fixed lens, thirdly the DP's already have Red and now Epic. Given these facts I would safely bet that scarlet is for the dvx indie crowd. And we already know that the dvx crowd could never afford pro glass. So asking for a feature like interchangeable lenses only gonna raise cost.

[brandon herman]

Hey Ameer,

I second that. A better fixed lens will do more good for the indie crowd then a interchangeable lens anyday.

Guys, better than what? It sounds like you're already criticizing the glass quality.:waaa:

it was announced 15 hours ago. there's a prototype in a glass box. :biggrin:

Does someone have inside info that the glass they are using is not awesome?

I'm certain that whatever they are using is of an amazing quality.

[Ameer Azari]

I'm an Indie Film maker not a DP, this is what I want:

A lens that let's me get good DOF

Rich colors

And Audio

Audio is the biggest thing that (I think) is missing from this camera for me.

the frame rates are great, 3K, marvelous, the ports look good, I can live with 2 CF cards.

JUST GIVE ME SOUND!!!!!!!!!!

[Many Moosh]

Hey bhtdmc,



Hey Ameer,

I second that. A better fixed lens will do more good for the indie crowd then a interchangeable lens anyday.

The above post got worded wrong on my part.

What I meant by a better fixed glass is if they wanna put a pro carl zeiss lens, instead of lets say a Leica, which I don't particualrly like, then that's fine by me, cause I can justify the cost. But but by making scarlet an interchangeable lens, I can't justify the extra cost it would add to the price, cause most indie film makers won't or can't afford to use pro glass.

[Luis Caffesse]

Audio is the biggest thing that (I think) is missing from this camera for me.
It's been said by those who spoke to people on the RED team that Scarlet will have audio capabilities.

[Luis Caffesse]

What I meant by a better fixed glass is if they wanna put a pro carl zeiss lens, instead of lets say a Leica, which I don't particualrly like, then that's fine by me

I think it's safe to assume it's going to have a fixed RED lens.
Little chance of seeing 'zeiss' stamped on the side of the Scarlet.

[Many Moosh]

If its a fixed Red lens, then I'll be a VERY happy man.

With the price this camera is being given for, it's a sweet deal.

Hope it stays in the same price range at the time of release.

[John Caballero]

My goodness, and this is the first day after the facts. Where did all these people come from. With requests and attitudes? Where were you yesterday, the day before? Get over it guys. Go and learn some filmmaking for the next year or take the time off. The Scarlet lens is going to be glued to the body, end of story. If it suits you fine, if it doesn’t take a hike and go and buy a camera to your liking or your needs. This camera is going to be under $3000.00 and extremely useful to the people that learn how to get beautiful images out of it, something that is not very easy for everybody, especially when they think they know it all and all of a sudden become “experts”. That is the problem with these forums. That because you see your name on the screen you are suddenly a STAR, and know it all.
This business is about creativity and the only way to demonstrate that creativity is thru your work not your mouth; you have to thank people like Jim Jannard who is trying to bring creative tools to you at an affordable price. If you are truly a genius in this business then you should have no problem on getting the dough to afford the Red One or maybe the Epic when it comes out. If you can’t do that just shut up and stop requesting what you can’t get out of Scarlet. Plenty of people are going to benefit from this camera, the more you whine and complain the most likely you are not one of the capable ones to do it.

[Many Moosh]

Couldn't have said it better John

[Ameer Azari]

I agree with John, what they have given us is amazing for under $3000, in fact, it's almost like a charity to indie film makers. You want 35mm - Letus

AND THEY HAVE AUDIO!!!! (apparently) YAY!!!!!!!!!!!

3K - awesome
1-120 fps - awesome
8x Zoom Lens - ehhhh, I'm cool with that
CF Cards - Awesome, but it would be nice to see some 16GB ones in the near future.

Hopefully there will be something similar to the RED RAIL for the Scarlet.

[Chris Kenny]

A lens that let's me get good DOF


Lenses don't get you shallow DoF. Large sensors do. Or, more pedantically, large sensors let you use longer focal lengths (which provide shallower DoF) without your field of view becoming too narrow.

I think there's definitely a market for a reasonably priced indie filmmaker's camera with a photo lens mount. But it requires a Super 35 sized sensor to be practical (the widest 35mm SLR lenses available aren't nearly wide enough for a 2/3" sensor sans adaptor) which is substantially larger than a 2/3" sensor. If my math is right, the Red One's sensor has about three times the surface area of the Scarlet's sensor, and anyone who knows anything about chip fabrication knows that costs climb very steeply as chip size goes up.

In other words, that indie filmmaker's camera with a photo lens mount? It's a Red One with a Nikon or Canon EF mount, which you can buy today (or soon, with EF). Would it be nice if there were a substantially cheaper and smaller camera body that did everything the Red One did? Sure. And there probably will be... if you're willing to wait a few years.

Scarlet is 2/3". That's already pretty nuts for $3K. It also has a 3K bayer sensor and records fairly lightly compressed raw data, which means it'll probably produce a better 1080p image than any sub-$10K camera. Maybe any sub-$20K camera (with the obvious exception of the Red One). That's freaking insane! Oh, and it records across a wider variety of frame rates than a $50K Varicam. For $3K! This thing is nuts!

The short max record time and relatively slow lens might make it impractical for e.g. event videographers, but every film student in the country who can scrape together 3K is going to buy one. (And incidentally, become familiar with Red workflow.... In other words, Scarlet is a sort of "gateway drug" for higher-end Red products. This is absolutely brilliant.)

[Many Moosh]

Hey Kenny,


And incidentally, become familiar with Red workflow.... In other words, Scarlet is a sort of "gateway drug" for higher-end Red products. This is absolutely brilliant.


I think this is an important point, especially for those who keep on complaining that scarlet didn't meet their expectations.

The thing that Scarlet is meant for is to get you ready for Red and for Epic.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I am guessing that this is Jim's way to get the attention of all in the prosumer market in his quest to make Red an industry household name.
Also to get those who buy it ready for high resolution work flow. If everyone and their mother get this Red 3k then most of them will understand how to do it and will own some of the accessories already. This is only a genius strategy for a newcomer with a new tool and lots of funding. And since this is nothing else but lots of competition all customers benefit.
Taking all of this into consideration, isn't the fixed lens is just a small handicap for the benefit of Red One?

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Every film student in the country who can scrape together 3K is going to buy one. (And incidentally, become familiar with Red workflow.... In other words, Scarlet is a sort of "gateway drug" for higher-end Red products. This is absolutely brilliant.)

You're right.
That's where I stand right now.

[proaudio4]

RED is brilliant.

Not only will they sell this camera to everyone who owns the RED ONE and EPIC as a "B" cam for tight shots and stunt shots, but they will get everyone else wanting to jump on the RED wagon, but can't afford it.

Sign me up. I'm buying.

[Odd Nydren]

Can I get a Red One? No. Will I then get a Scarlet? Hell yeah. :)

[WesVasher]

RED is brilliant.

Not only will they sell this camera to everyone who owns the RED ONE and EPIC as a "B" cam for tight shots and stunt shots, but they will get everyone else wanting to jump on the RED wagon, but can't afford it.

Sign me up. I'm buying.

Exactly, it's crazy to think that I could be owning a Red camera in a year with onboard recording and a lens... insane!

[Ameer Azari]

My final word on interchangeable lenses is:

I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

keep the current lens, and then make it removable. I'm new to the technical side of filming, so if that affects the people who like fixed lenses, please explain to me how

I'm not being sarcastic, I seriously would like someone to tell me

[Chris Kenny]

My final word on interchangeable lenses is:

I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

keep the current lens, and then make it removable. I'm new to the technical side of filming, so if that affects the people who like fixed lenses, please explain to me how

It would make the camera more expensive. Having interchangeable lenses might seem trivial from a mechanical standpoint, but because of the high level of precision involved, it's actually not.

And what lenses would you use with it anyway? B4 lenses are designed to cover this format, but they're all for three chip cameras... wouldn't work. It would have been somewhat interesting if Red had made the sensor Super 16 format and given the camera a PL mount... but cine glass is expensive, even in Super 16. Practically any lens you could buy would cost more than the camera.

[Ameer Azari]

It would make the camera more expensive. Having interchangeable lenses might seem trivial from a mechanical standpoint, but because of the high level of precision involved, it's actually not.

And what lenses would you use with it anyway? B4 lenses are designed to cover this format, but they're all for three chip cameras... wouldn't work. It would have been somewhat interesting if Red had made the sensor Super 16 format and given the camera a PL mount... but cine glass is expensive, even in Super 16. Practically any lens you could buy would cost more than the camera.

I get what you mean. I guess I'd be using SLR glass in which case and adapter would be used.

OK MY FINAL FINAL WORD

I am happy with what they have given us...GIVE IT TO ME NOW!! NOW DAMMIT!!

[danbrazda]

Can anyone explain why manufacturing a body-only camera that allows for interchangeable lenses would be more expensive than having to manufacture that same camera with a built-in lens? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious here but, please enlighten me.

What I was personally hoping for was a S35 sensor in a body that allowed maximum flexibility for lenses and other accessories. 3K price point isn't what it's all about when the competitor's cams are selling well at 7-10K. I'd pay 6K for the above mentioned cam in a heartbeat. Probably higher.

[Lawrence Bansbach]

It's been said by those who spoke to people on the RED team that Scarlet will have audio capabilities.Actually, Jim Jannard himself has said it (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=196971&postcount=25).

[Dylan Reeve]

The only realistic solution for interchangeable lenses would be for RED to make their own lenses and have their own mount system on the camera.

All other lenses are designed for too big a sensor (35mm etc) or are simply too cumbersome (B4 lenses). For Scarlet to be a good an usable camera in it's market the lens needs to communicate well with the camera, and there are no contenders for that functionality.

[Gary Stone]

i see a lot of people comparing what the scarlets DOF will be like to the HVX and other 1/3" cameras that are out there. have these people forgotten that it is a 2/3" sensor, which is approximate to 16mm film DOF.

if that's not the very definition of independent film, then what is?

if you want that look without an adapter, get a RED ONE. basically this thing is 3K RAW with the equivalent of 16mm depth of field. try that with an HVX...for 3 grand!!! not happening.

small moves...small moves...

[millrick]

fuckin noobs...

intelligent discourse...
that's what I love about this forum


"Hey, I found a toaster."

[millrick]

Tom, this is just the beginning, wait till these kiddies start getting their cams. Imagine the horror....

Yes, please do imagine the horror of someone creating an example of cinematic excellence with a camera that costs $3000. It will happen, and it will happen soon. Imagination is what counts, not how much your damn camera costs.

[John Caballero]

Everybody should get at a chance. The fact is, in this business like any other you get ahead or eliminated by the quality of your work or product. If anybody thinks they are going to make it big because a high quality camera is affordable to them, well, it is Ok to dream. In the end you make it if what you put out with that camera is remarkably good and you are able to bring it out to the public to see and you get money for it. A lot of people have HVX 200s, EX1s, HVX 500s and are not able to break thru, others have done great and profitable work with them.
This camera won’t be an automatic way to filmmaking stardom. There are way too many really bad scripts in people’s brains. But at least it will give you a chance to try.

[millrick]

This camera won’t be an automatic way to filmmaking stardom. There are way too many really bad scripts in people’s brains. But at least it will give you a chance to try.


Nicely said John!

[Steve Phillipps]

manymoosh, Please keep posts friendly and helpful. If you think someone's got something totally wrong then try and help them in the right direction rather than just calling them idiots. I thought that was what we were about here?
I agree with what you're saying in fact, but even that doesn't stop others having a different opinion!
Steve

[Stuart English]

What I was personally hoping for was a S35 sensor in a body that allowed maximum flexibility for lenses and other accessories. 3K price point isn't what it's all about when the competitor's cams are selling well at 7-10K. I'd pay 6K for the above mentioned cam in a heartbeat. Probably higher.

Maybe so, but that is not what we are building, so not point discussing it.

Scarlet is a super compact 2/3" 3K RAW camera - effectively a variable prime (i.e zoom) lensed F23 in your pocket for $3K.

If you would like us to consider building a $7K camera, O.K start a new thread on that subject.

[donatello b]

"What I was personally hoping for was a S35 sensor in a body that allowed maximum flexibility for lenses and other accessories. 3K price point isn't what it's all about when the competitor's cams are selling well at 7-10K. I'd pay 6K for the above mentioned cam in a heartbeat. Probably higher. "

i suggest you contact other manufacturer's and request the above camera ( don't forget to mention the price you're willing to pay) ..
you might start over at SI where they do have a 2/3" mini that does take lens .. i think base price is 15k + add $$ for a compter so you can record .. perhaps if they get enough request they will offer a S35 mini at $6k ??