Scarlet is Scarlet

[Steve Phillipps]

Lotta posts on the Scarlet and what it's not got. It seems to be me that if you want interchangeable lenses and various other stuff people are talking about then you need a Red One. What'd be the point in making the Scarlet an interchangeable lens camera when there's already the RED One? It's like saying that the Sony Z1 would be nice if it had a 2/3" sensor, interchangeable lenses and HDCam recording - that'd be a 750!
Steve

[Jun-Dai]

The point is that the RED One is a $17.5k camera. And it's big. There's very little crossover at that price point.

When people say they want interchangeable lenses on the Scarlet, what they are saying is that they want a small, affordable, portable camera that they can carry around in their pocket or a small shoulder back with a couple of lenses.

Scarlet, with the specs as they are, is an industry-changing product. It won't steal away the consumer base of the HV20 and its kin, but it can take away some of the higher-end users that are settling for the HV20 because they aren't happy with the ~$3k options. It will steal away the consumers of the $3k-10k cameras just fine.

What it could be, however, is the video-camera world's answer to the DSLR craze. If I could purchase a camera for around $3k, and collect 3-5 16/S16 lenses, and maybe even attach my Canon/Nikon lenses albeit with a severe crop factor---well, then you've just created an entirely new market. A market that serves film students, professionals, super-low-budget indie directors/cinematographers, and an army of hobbyists, in a way that no other product has before. It would be a video equivalent of a Bolex/Eclair/Arri 16mm or S16mm camera, but with the potential to reach all those people that bought Canon Rebels, 10/20/30/40D and even the 5D, not to mention the Nikon side of things. The whole cottage industry that has sprung up serving HV20 users that want to attach their SLR lenses is, I think, just the tip of a very large iceberg.

There are very few people on this forum (if any) that think the Scarlet is a bad product, or that it won't do well, or that it isn't on some level an industry changing product. It will serve an existing market with a product that blows everything else out of the water. There are, however, a lot of people that see the opportunity for a product that serves a new and hungry market that isn't currently being served (one that seems like it could potentially be an order of magnitude larger than the current $3k video camera market). The fact that RED is the only player in the video camera industry that has shown any interest in listening to its consumers is the reason there is so much intense discussion around this.

At the same time, there are a lot of people that want a small pocketable camera with a fixed lens, a solid build quality, and specs from god. An HV30 on steroids. Those people will be sad if RED changes this product into a video camera version of a S16 camera.

I'll be curious to see where this issue is in six months. It's certainly not going to go away, and if RED is unwilling or unable to serve the market of "small, affordable camera with interchangeable lens" (I'd put even money on "can't" and "won't"), they're going to have to get used to filtering out this request, because there are so many people that want such a camera so badly that they're going to keep pressing the issue.

[Akcelik]

+1 Jun-Dai

[John Caballero]

It is not what you want but what Red might want or are able to deliver. If the Scarlet doesn’t offer you what you want or need, for a lousy $3K, just walk away. Then work over time, mortgage your house or something and get a more expensive camera.
Sony just came out with the EX3, I believe it is, and yes it has interchangeable lenses and I guess is an upgrade from the Ex1 fixed lens camera. But the freaking thing is going to cost you $13K without lens!!!
Get off that cloud and come down to the real world and appreciate the specs as they are today. Maybe the lens deal will change, most likely not. If it is glued to the camera, be it. If it is not good enough just move on.

[Jun-Dai]

I've never understood this "if they don't have what you want, just don't buy it" response. This is a forum specifically dedicated to discussing this still-in-progress product. RED is a company that works with the community. People that are complaining about it (and I'm not even doing that) are providing valuable feedback. This idea that we should just take or leave what RED gives us without providing any feedback seems both ludicrous and completely against RED's approach to developing and marketing their cameras.

[Akcelik]

It is not what you want but what Red might want or are able to deliver. If the Scarlet doesn’t offer you what you want or need, for a lousy $3K, just walk away. Then work over time, mortgage your house or something and get a more expensive camera.
Sony just came out with the EX3, I believe it is, and yes it has interchangeable lenses and I guess is an upgrade from the Ex1 fixed lens camera. But the freaking thing is going to cost you $13K without lens!!!
Get off that cloud and come down to the real world and appreciate the specs as they are today. Maybe the lens deal will change, most likely not. If it is glued to the camera, be it. If it is not good enough just move on.

Check out the specs it does not state a "fixed" lens.

If specs are subject to change, why not improve on it? why would one incessantly position themselves against such expandability?

There are many who own a DSLR with a fixed lens. Do you know how? They just forget about it!

[Armand]

It is not what you want but what Red might want or are able to deliver. If the Scarlet doesn’t offer you what you want or need, for a lousy $3K, just walk away. Then work over time, mortgage your house or something and get a more expensive camera.
Sony just came out with the EX3, I believe it is, and yes it has interchangeable lenses and I guess is an upgrade from the Ex1 fixed lens camera. But the freaking thing is going to cost you $13K without lens!!!
Get off that cloud and come down to the real world and appreciate the specs as they are today. Maybe the lens deal will change, most likely not. If it is glued to the camera, be it. If it is not good enough just move on.
yeah
also, if you want to become president all you have to is run for first selectman of your town/city. or get on some board or committee like board of finance or education. then from there you should run as a district member in your state and get on the house of rep. then run as a senator and eventually run for president of the united states. and afterwards you should write a book or two describing your whole life and your accomplishments.
its real easy.

[John Caballero]

These are forums to discuss the cameras, exchange ideas, view other people’s work, etc. Not to gang up on Red and start requesting what they might not want to add or take away from a $3K camera. Go try doing that with Panasonic. Lots of people wanted interchangeable lenses on the HVX200, did they do that with the upgrade, I guess not. Jim said he would listen to feedback but that not many changes would be forthcoming.
The Scarlet seems to be a fabulous camera as it stands right now even though it doesn’t exist yet, but hopefully will in a year or less with some changes. As for the lens, now I am really confused with the 8X T2.8 RED ZOOM LENS line on the specs list. Maybe it is …… I really can’t tell now….. Geeezzz….

[Ameer Azari]

yeah
also, if you want to become president all you have to is run for first selectman of your town/city. or get on some board or committee like board of finance or education. then from there you should run as a district member in your state and get on the house of rep. then run as a senator and eventually run for president of the united states. and afterwards you should write a book or two describing your whole life and your accomplishments.
its real easy.

That's a really weird first post, you didn't even say hi...

[Jun-Dai]

Now we're definitely stirring the pot again, and I don't think that really helps things much.

There are a lot of reasons for Scarlet to have a fixed lens. There are a lot of reasons for it not to have a fixed lens. I happen to think that at $3k a camera with interchangeable lenses will serve a larger market (and we'll never really know until someone tries), but it's true that there are people whose interests will not be served by Scarlet having an interchangeable lens (especially if that makes it more expensive and/or heavier/larger). I am also missing Jannard's perspective on what it would take to give Scarlet an interchangeable lens, and you don't even have an equation until you have that information. Perhaps $3k is not feasible. Perhaps not even $5k is feasible. Perhaps they have other reasons not entirely related to cost (cannibalizing their other products, added size/weight, who knows?). But surely it is interesting information to know how badly we want them.

If I were to dream, I'd like to imagine that they will also start work on a RED One Lite (Pink?) that is basically a $3k-$5k video equivalent of an S16. That would kill all of this discussion about Scarlet having interchangeable lenses. But again, I'm sure there are several reasons for RED not to do this, and only Jannard has all the information to make the decision about whether RED should be doing this.

[John Caballero]

All of a sudden this forum became populated with people without a clue. So many came out of nowhere to become experts and philosofers of all things Scarlet. With or without fixed lens this camera will perform as good as you make it perform and that is the truth.
As for the process of becoming president, Armand, you are brilliant in your assessment, because, without any help I hope, you were able to figure it out. The only problem, it is like a lottery, 1 in 300 million chance of making it (in the USA) . I hope you are as good and serious a filmmaker as you are a politician.
It is always good to dream, as long as at some some point you wake up and face reality as it is now.

[Armand]

All of a sudden this forum became populated with people without a clue. So many came out of nowhere to become experts and philosofers of all things Scarlet. With or without fixed lens this camera will perform as good as you make it perform and that is the truth.
As for the process of becoming president, Armand, you are brilliant in your assessment, because, without any help I hope, you were able to figure it out. The only problem, it is like a lottery, 1 in 300 million chance of making it (in the USA) . I hope you are as good and serious a filmmaker as you are a politician.
It is always good to dream, as long as at some some point you wake up and face reality as it is now.

I'm glad you realized my little story there is not as easy as it seems...It's sarcasm. The point is, to the majority of the people in this country $3k is not "lousy" and to simply bump that up to 18k as though it were no big deal is ridiculous.

[John Caballero]

Let’s hope prices stay as low as possible. The economy is so bad now and who knows how it is going to be next year. If the $3000.00 for the camera stands a year from now, with a few items that don’t add up that much to the final price and you are able to start shooting beautiful images it will be a great opportunity for a lot of people.
The idea is for individuals in the lower end of affordability to get an equal chance at the dream. I am sure that’s what Red and Co. has in mind with Scarlet.

[Jun-Dai]

The more I think about it, the more I hope they don't change Scarlet to have an interchangeable lens. Instead, I hope they will decide that it's worth making a twin product that does have an S16 lens. Among other things, then we'll actually be able to see how much more they feel such a camera needs to be priced at, and how serious this level of interest is.

[Armand]

Let’s hope prices stay as low as possible. The economy is so bad now and who knows how it is going to be next year. If the $3000.00 for the camera stands a year from now, with a few items that don’t add up that much to the final price and you are able to start shooting beautiful images it will be a great opportunity for a lot of people.
The idea is for individuals in the lower end of affordability to get an equal chance at the dream. I am sure that’s what Red and Co. has in mind with Scarlet.

Agreed.

[Jeff Brue]

I'm glad you realized my little story there is not as easy as it seems...It's sarcasm. The point is, to the majority of the people in this country $3k is not "lousy" and to simply bump that up to 18k as though it were no big deal is ridiculous.

depends on your perspective. I think anyone who's in that game of worrying about a couple grand price point hasn't taken into account what it actually costs to make something watchable (other than home movies).

[Cüneyt Kaya]

The more I think about it, the more I hope they don't change Scarlet to have an interchangeable lens. Instead, I hope they will decide that it's worth making a twin product that does have an S16 lens. Among other things, then we'll actually be able to see how much more they feel such a camera needs to be priced at, and how serious this level of interest is.

me thinks f2.0 would be good...
thats it...
who wants more gets the one
who wants more gets the epic

[dieseljunkie]

Let’s hope prices stay as low as possible. The economy is so bad now and who knows how it is going to be next year. If the $3000.00 for the camera stands a year from now, with a few items that don’t add up that much to the final price and you are able to start shooting beautiful images it will be a great opportunity for a lot of people.
The idea is for individuals in the lower end of affordability to get an equal chance at the dream. I am sure that’s what Red and Co. has in mind with Scarlet.

Completely bollocks.

I can tell you what the problem is with your idealistic view. Everyone here seems to think that $3,000 will get you in business. WRONG. People with QuadCore Mac Pro's equipped with 10GB of RAM have problems editing RED ONE RAW footage. Also, you cannot compare this with HDV shot on a Canon HV-20. It takes much more effort to get great footage out of this camera. So you see where I am going? It will cost around $10,000 to get the scarlet in proper operation (camera + additional gear + a dozen compact flash cards + very fast computer + tons of storage space. People who have $3,000 to spend might realize this.

Here is an example for a workable Scarlet, using RED ONE accessories, which I think will be the same judging Jim's comments:

RED Scarlet: $3,000
Handles: $175 each, 3 in total (left, right and top)
Battery: $225 (half the price of the RED ONE battery)
8GB CF cards: $199 x 4 (100MB/SEC is a lot of data)

Total price of this package: $4,546

For editing the RAW footage:

Mac Pro 8-core with 5GB of RAM: $5,000

For archiving the footage:

5TB at least, more when you do dual back-ups.... around $800.

So it will set you off around $10,000.

Most people with decent computers have problems editing HDV, now RED comes with 100MB/sec RAW footage at 3k resolution.

My point? If you say $3,000, I agree, affordable for everyone, great way to start your filming career, nothing to complain here. But when you consider the total investment, people with small budgets will suffer making this camera work for them. And the people that can make this work, with higher budget, want interchangeable lenses which they don't get.

I think that is causing the split on these forums: 50% of people can make the switch from the HV-20/HV-30 or even DVX-100 or even Canon XH-A1 to a 3k RED Scarlet. But do they realize how much the real investment will be? The other 50% of people on this forum expected a 35mm sensor and interchangeable lenses and are a bit disappointed as well. I dare to say that not having interchangeable lenses is the biggest complaint issued here and a deal-breaker for many people. I think I will still buy the Scarlet but I really hope they also listens to the big group of users who do not have the money for a $17,000 RED ONE but want interchangeable lenses.

And I really cannot understand why people react so hostile to those people who ask for this feature. All other companies do not listen to their customers (although Sony seems to listen lately) and I hope RED will not become one of those companies as well.

This camera is work in progress and the pay-off even says "SPECIFICATIONS, DELIVERY DATES AND DESIGN ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE... COUNT ON IT". So don't blame/flame us for asking.

[Júlio Taubkin]

C'mon, it's incredibly cheap. It's cheaper than the DVX was. It's 3K. You can't argue with that...

[REDneck]

For editing the RAW footage:

Mac Pro 8-core with 5GB of RAM: $5,000


hold up.... you should be able to edit offline (some kind of resolution/data rate compression) and online your final movie to full res RAW..... no? i don't think you actually need a system capable of playing the full quality footage...

[WesVasher]

I'm making my own handles. :) And I won't need a 5,000 computer to edit. Pro Res was made for a reason.

[John Caballero]

The baby won’t be home ‘till a year from now and computer technology changes practically by the month so who knows by then where processing and archival capabilities, as well as cost, will be. Both on the Mac as well as on the PC world. Because believe me, you can do great video work on the PC side too. After all, the new Macs share the same Intel technology now.
My experience with Edius and MXF files, and its unbelievable rendering performance, tells me that this great NLE as well as Adobe Premiere (also shared by both platforms) will be able to handle Raw without a glitch on a well equipped PC.
If Scarlet is for the masses, as it undoubtedly is, I am sure the Red team will make sure that everybody will be able to edit the wonderful images it will capture. And as a matter of fact that is what they are working on now with the output from Red One, a workflow that makes sense and works for the camera owners in their own editing suites.