RED RAY - VTR style controls

[laguun]

Red Ray promises to be an excellent product, but my *main* question is: WIll it be controlled by RS422/232 to work as REDs VTR? That would solve *dozens* of problems at the same time.

[Stuart English]

Red Ray promises to be an excellent product, but my *main* question is: WIll it be controlled by RS422/232 to work as REDs VTR? That would solve *dozens* of problems at the same time.

No promises on that one, but its a great idea, and we'd certainly like to hear your thoughts on all the potential applications for this technology...

[Nils Ruinet]

What I would love to see is an extension card that you would stick into your PC or your Mac, and that would accelerate Redcode RAW decoding in RedCine or other applications.

Being able to transcode / downconvert R3D files to Quicktime / DPX /... in realtime (or at least near realtime, depending on drive speeds) is the missing link right now. I know Scratch Cine is supposed to do something like that, but for $30K.

I suppose there is a chip in the RED-Ray which is able to decode Redcode-RAW in realtime. Couldn't this chip be used to build such an extension card ? Kind of a "Redcode accelerator" ?

Nils.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Or just use our friend CUDA.

[Ed Blythe]

Wonder if there's an application for this piece of tech akin to how the P2 Store works... Suspect not at this point, but that was one of my first thoughts on seeing the render. Depending on the outputs, seems like a lot of the right technology is there to perform this sort of function.

Irrespective of which, this eclipses the camera announcements for me. Good stuff.

[Clayton Harper]

VTR is the perfect metaphor for Red Ray.

RS422 control would be huge. But, please, oh please let Red Ray record/burn discs that contain R3D files and their look files and then play them back.

Also, if we could dump CF cards to a Red Ray and have them burned onto a rewriteable media as a storage/backup solution, I will kiss a cop and punch my grandma. :biggrin:

[laguun]

No promises on that one, but its a great idea, and we'd certainly like to hear your thoughts on all the potential applications for this technology...

Ok, here is some feedback and input from different european customers.

I spoke with mid-size cinema chains and distributors (they are operating ~150 digital cinemas) and posthouses, who asked me before NAB to do a round up of the main news.

The cinema operators and the distributor like the idea *very* much.
They have the problem that a DCI master is pretty expensive, and they dont get enough content for their screens. The distributor, which has all his movies (~400 titles) digitally, has the problem that especially smaller and foreign movies do not justify the ~20.000 a DCI mastering usually costs.

So, the red ray was very interesting to them, to say the least.
But all of them asked at once: Whats the automation? If they are midsized (>=5 screens) they all want automated playback (not only for the main movie, but for their commercials), so playlist / tc / rs422 is very important to them. If there is sony VTR control, there are many many inexpensive apps who can control this, some even opensource iirc.
All of them were basically floored and flabbergasted by the pricepoint.

The posthouses even had *more* interest.
Their mayor concern, and i have to say, reservation, is that the HUGE mayority of all of them is basically in TC / VTR land. If they do 1080P/2K, HDCAM and HDCAM SR is pretty much the >90% workhorse here. For offline, its still mainly Digibeta. They all dont want to understand raw workflows yet, and many dont see the davantages but only the disadvantages (to slow, to incompatible, no hd-sdi in an hd-sdi infrastructure, no *direct* online on an avid/discreet, anotehr steps, yada yada, you know their points).

If redray works with a VTR control for them, it would be a *totally* well selling player for them. They would basically not use the raw advantages, but at once would integrate RED into their supported format lists.

Another example, there are *many* very very successful editors out there, who surpringsly work on vintage systems (lightworks, discreet edit, old pre-adrenaline avids to name a few). They have "their" systems, are working lightspeed fast with them and are often 50,60 years and have *no* interest in computers at all. Some of them had #1 in the boxoffice several times, and computer still are bizarre systems to them.

These people dont get REDs current workflow at all, as they only know offline and a VTR style. red ray with TC rs 422 control would be highly appealing to them as well, all of them which i got on the phone asked at once if redray is sony/panasonic protocol controlled.

Another area is the whole studio exchange thing: look at this (if you dont know it)
http://www.rosendahl-studiotechnik.com/bonsai.html
its selling very well in germany, and its more expensive than red ray. Its main uses are to carry discrete 5.1 audio from studio to studio, to exchanged video between systems without renting a digibeta etc. so far, no tapeless recording system was able to replace the whole standard VTRs - redray could *exactly* be that, if if would have tc / remote - a single HDCAM SR mastertape alone costs 150-200 here.


Then *venue* and *digital signage*. This is one of the fastest growing businesses of moving image production. one example: we are right now doing the preproduction for a ~8K ride in berlin at the new international airport. using 9 1080P displays, we feed them with an iridas venue system, which costs >50K. Such systems are used, just to name some, by disneyland, the museum of modern arts, several rides exactly around the corner in NAB / Vegas (The Star Trek Experience: BORG 4D is an Iridas 3D Venue System iirc) etc. All these systems have to be automated, controlled and synchronized, most of them work in existing control infrastructures which use RS422/232 with Sony Protocol. Current prices in this area: The Mantis quadchannel HD player, which is pretty much the usual device for such installations is ~10.000$ and only offers 36Mbit MPEG2, iridas venue can scale up to 10k uncompressed, but is >50.000.

So, control, TC and synchronization would extremly boost the benefits and uses of the red ray, i would dare to say, fundamentally.

p.s.
i assume red ray has an usb or firewire interfacer to attach harddrives?

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

This is one of those posts that you read in five years from now and say: "That´s when it started."

Jochen´s 0.02 Euro

[Peace Villow]

I can't agree more with you.
Well said laguun.

e-SATA/Firewire 800 & RS422 is a must for RED RAY.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

we'd certainly like to hear your thoughts on all the potential applications for this technology...

HOPE RED RAY COME WITH Handles something like REDTOP MOUNT HANDLES

OR SIDE Handles:innocent:

[laguun]

ok, some more feedback after speaking with more clients, partners and emplyees of ours.

-All- are for RS232/422, all think it would enhance *extremely* the use of red ray. This is pretty interesting - usually you get always very miced preferences and opinions from pro digital / neutral / pro film, editors / vfx / producers / directors, distribution / production / post. Not in this case, not a single voice against it.

[Keith Nealy]

Great Post, Laguun.

That's great news about the digital cinema houses and very good suggestions.
and, anything to smooth out the workflow will be welcome. If you could back up CF cards to it, or your harddrive that would really help.

Keith

[Chris Kenny]

No promises on that one, but its a great idea, and we'd certainly like to hear your thoughts on all the potential applications for this technology...

I posted some of this before, but just to get it all in once place:

1. Stream REDCODE RAW to the device out of RedCine or FCP over FW800, for real-time 4K monitoring of REDCODE RAW timelines, or real-time transcoding to HD to writing out to tape.

2. Hook the Red Ray up to a capture device for real-time transcoding to uncompressed HD though a Kona card or maybe ProRes through an IO HD. It would be really amazing if there were some software to coordinate this so that that transcoded video was broken up into properly named clips. This seems like it could be done even without RS-232, via a device control protocol that worked over FireWire.

3. Allow REDCODE RGB footage to played off of generic external hard drives. (Maybe this is already planned?) This would turn the device into a general purpose 4K media player, allowing hours of content to be played back uninterrupted (far more than can fit on a DVD 9).

4. Stick a gigabit ethernet port on the device. Then, in, for instance, theatrical environments, one media server could hold all the content, and stream it to any screen. In a post facility, any machine on the network could stream 4K directly to the player.

5. Have an option to power the thing off of a Red Brick, so it can be easily used in the field for reviewing footage.

6. In combination with 5, you could put an appropriate LEMO connector on the device so it could be directly attached to a Red LCD, providing a nearly pocket-sized mechanism for reviewing raw footage. Or maybe this could be a separate integrated device; basically that would look like a thicker version of the Pro LCD screen, with a CF card slot, a FW800 port, and some buttons to control playback.

[jbeale]

Using a DVD-9 seems very inexpensive and a great choice for most applications. I'm somewhat surprised to hear this suggested for theatrical screening though. If the DCI spec is anything to go by, strong copy-protection is supposed to be absolutely required for that application (?)

[laguun]

Using a DVD-9 seems very inexpensive and a great choice for most applications. I'm somewhat surprised to hear this suggested for theatrical screening though. If the DCI spec is anything to go by, strong copy-protection is supposed to be absolutely required for that application (?)

Yes, strong copy protection is a must for DCI. However, while berlinale many movies are shown from HDCAM (as the dci master isnt ready or the filmrecording is still rolling), smaller movies which start with 10-20 national copies often dont justify a dci master / filmout, internal premieres are always tricky to organise, any< festival where the director presents the movie himself... etc.

[Chris Kenny]

Using a DVD-9 seems very inexpensive and a great choice for most applications. I'm somewhat surprised to hear this suggested for theatrical screening though. If the DCI spec is anything to go by, strong copy-protection is supposed to be absolutely required for that application (?)

If Red is targeting this at mass-market theatrical distribution, they'd probably do need to add some copy protection features, yeah. There's no reason they can't implement whatever sort of encryption/watermarking they want just because they're using DVD 9, though. That all comes down the data format, not the media. Sure, people would be able to easily duplicate the discs, but if they didn't have the appropriate keys for playback, that wouldn't do them any good.

[Vincent Rice]

PLEASE seriously consider adding RS422 control guys. It could potentially make me a lot of money and then I would be able to buy more RED cameras; Mmkay?

[Vincent Rice]

If people are thinking theatrical distribution; forget it. Do you have any idea how paranoid those people are? Have you read the DCI spec. document? Advertising however is a whole different ball game. Those people actually want other people to see their content; as big and bright as possible.

The other shoe needs to drop however ~ 4K projectors...........

[Dylan Reeve]

A VTR-like device is very valuable in tape-free workflows as it allows easy and quick integration into existing tape-based workflows.

[Darren Orange]

Stuart,

I can't seem to find this info anywhere. So Red Ray has Quad HDMI and Quad HD-SDI. My questions is by Quad HD-SDI is that Quad Dual Link HD-SDI. Baiscly I would assume that it is outputing a 4K 4:4:4 at 10bit via Quad Dual Link HD-SDI and 4K 4:2:2 8bit via Quad HDMI. Is this right? Please correct me where I am wrong. Trying to understand the output.


Thanks!

[laguun]

If people are thinking theatrical distribution; forget it. Do you have any idea how paranoid those people are? Have you read the DCI spec. document? Advertising however is a whole different ball game. Those people actually want other people to see their content; as big and bright as possible.

I spoke with 2 german distributors today, both are pretty interested to have a less complicated and less expensive route to the 2K and 4K projectors in the cinemas. red ray will, for the reasons you mentioned, never be an replacement to dci, but an alternative in many scenarios.

Especially for smaller films (10-30 copies), cult & classics, premieres, -press presentations-, festivals etc DCI certainly isnt as fast and flexible as it is wanted to be. red ray would fill the niche excellent, maybe not for the mayors, but certainly for the average mid-budget german production.

Also, many masters are shown without copyprotection, i know that first hand, as we often rent out HDCAM vtrs or 2K discrecorders while Berlinale for exactly that purpose.

[Júlio Taubkin]

I spoke with 2 german distributors today, both are pretty interested to have a less complicated and less expensive route to the 2K and 4K projectors in the cinemas. red ray will, for the reasons you mentioned, never be an replacement to dci, but an alternative in many scenarios.

Especially for smaller films (10-30 copies), cult & classics, premieres, -press presentations-, festivals etc DCI certainly isnt as fast and flexible as it is wanted to be. red ray would fill the niche excellent, maybe not for the mayors, but certainly for the average mid-budget german production.

Also, many masters are shown without copyprotection, i know that first hand, as we often rent out HDCAM vtrs or 2K discrecorders while Berlinale for exactly that purpose.

Let's say I'm an independent producion company making a show for a TV channel. Or I'm making commercials. They want me to handle a tape. I want to keep my workflow in-house. I don't want to invest in tape drives that I know are going to be obsolete. I want my material to be delivered in HD in a good codec (much better than HDV) with a VTR that doesn't cost more than my camera. I don't want to have long rendering times, so I just output it to redray, Redcode wavelet based, 1080p. Less convertion time (hardware based?), better quality, almost for free.

Or, I want an HDCAM master. I get my hard drive to a post house, and they charge me their machine's downtime rendering out my material. Expensive for a 30' spot, absurd for a longer project. If I can get them a Redray cpy they only charge me VTR copy prices...

But both situations need the drives incorporated in their current VTR Workflows, and in order to do that, they need external deck control.

[Paul Leeming]

Stuart,

I can't seem to find this info anywhere. So Red Ray has Quad HDMI and Quad HD-SDI. My questions is by Quad HD-SDI is that Quad Dual Link HD-SDI. Baiscly I would assume that it is outputing a 4K 4:4:4 at 10bit via Quad Dual Link HD-SDI and 4K 4:2:2 8bit via Quad HDMI. Is this right? Please correct me where I am wrong. Trying to understand the output.


Thanks!
I too am very interested in exactly which interface technology will be used to drive potential 4K displays (and maybe 3840x2160 displays too I guess). I'm having some interesting discussions with a company here who want to develop a panel capable of outputting RED RAY 4K footage..... :ninja:

Red Team, if you want to contact me offlist for this you know where to find me! :)

Cheers,

Paul

[Mr. Paul White]

Price for this thing?

[Stuart English]

Price for this thing?

Its targeted to be under $1,000

[JohnF]

Its targeted to be under $1,000

Holy crap!

If you stick RS232/422 on this product along with HD-SDI and data outs you'll probably cement youselves as the dominant shooting format for the next ten years. (esp if you keep the size as is! Portable!!!)

I have to echo Laguun posts, they are a very good summary of what is wanted out there.

This product could easily facilitate the push for true digital cinema.

JohnF

[Johnny Johnson]

Will it be able to play 5k from epic?

Also, slightly off topic but will epic be able to have a burst mode for super high speeds for a short time like scarlett?

Will the red one be able to burst at somepoint for that matter?!

[oedipus]

The RS232/422 might make a sub $1000 pricepoint tough - is it feasible to adopt a modular approach and have it as an add-in board?

[Dylan Reeve]

RS422 hardware is no problem, it's available on many system boards, or as a very simple chip... It's really just a matter of programming to allow VTR-emulation with a standard RS422 control protocol (Sony's for example).

If the device is capable of cueing to a location, prerolling and playing then it should have no problem emulating a VTR - someone just has to write the code.

Hell I can used my Avid as a virtual VTR... That wheel has been invented, just needs to be refined. This is what I was crying out for with P2 (I believe it exists now).

[Cisaro]

If it does come about that FCP or Scratch can generate .R3D files it would cool if REDRAY could some how do it, considering how excellent the .R3D format is, has anyone given Gramae his award yet? If not why not!

[Stuart English]

RED-RAY is a playback device, so no record / dub or encode options in it....

Keep the ideas flowing, this is a good discussion thread.

[Bing Bailey]

it would be nice if redray could also be used to stream a live view from the camera for video village stuff. it'll already have an asic chip that can decode and play redcode. I'm not sure whether you'd need to use the 5ghz 802.11A or the 2.4ghz 802.11N standard. maybe ultra wide band. redray already has the connections to hook to a good monitor via hdmi or hd sdi. I know those wireless standards get about 70% of their stated bandwidth due to overhead. you're already setup to do proxies

if you have something like redray why not use it in as many functional ways as possible. it would sell like hot cakes for video village applications and then you can also use it for playback in theaters and in post.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

for screening:
maybe a reverse transcoding software tool to get a sequence after finishing the timeline....so a mixed timeline could be burned on the redray disc...
call it qt/dpxTOr3d or whatever...

this software will burn the DVD too...so you could be able to burn in different audio tracks...
and redray reads it like a regular player and you can choose the language/subtitles etc...

at the end you can duplicate the Master Redray dvd and send it all over to the redray stations...

[Peace Villow]

Its targeted to be under $1,000
Holy Moly!!!

Just give me RS-422 port, I'll buy 4 RED RAY.
Every FCP suite in my office will connect to RED RAY box :tongue:

[Peace Villow]

RED-RAY is a playback device, so no record / dub or encode options in it....

Keep the ideas flowing, this is a good discussion thread.
I believe we don't need record/dub capabilities, for what? "Mastering" RAW files? :wacko:

BTW, how about the audio support in RED RAY?

[laguun]

RED-RAY is a playback device, so no record / dub or encode options in it....

Keep the ideas flowing, this is a good discussion thread.

Having no record is not a real issue. As i understand it, customers can encode via the computer. So, mastering once or recording with one of the red models (ahhh, i like the sound of that) are the primary sources. It would be nice to have record. The RS422/232 control & TC however make a -real- difference for many customers and potential uses, be it as feeder (for a NLE), a server (for a venue or tradeshow), a player (for a VTR/DDR dub), a source for an internal premiere, a digital cinema alternative for classic/premiere-content etc

[Dylan Reeve]

I'd like to see a Gigabit ethernet port on the RED RAY and a very simple streaming protocol, so that I can send a file from my computer (or from the SolidStore) to the RED RAY and have decoded an played.

[Bang WOW Bang]

No promises on that one, but its a great idea, and we'd certainly like to hear your thoughts on all the potential applications for this technology...

Any Keys lock to protect the RED Content inside the RED RAY ?
It will be good to integrate into the D-Cinema projectors from 4K to anything.

Forget about the DCI 4K standard !!!
Forget about the Blue-ray as well " Only HD " for the past !!!

The D-Cinema market worldwide will benefit from this SUPER Value 4K playback products.

Can we play 4K outside D-Cinema ? YES in any place you want.


Cheers,

Stewart
HKG - CHINA

[number6]

RED-RAY is a playback device, so no record / dub or encode options in it....

Keep the ideas flowing, this is a good discussion thread.

If there's no record option, where do you get dual layered DVDs with 2 hrs of 4K footage?

[Stuart English]

If there's no record option, where do you get dual layered DVDs with 2 hrs of 4K footage?

A DVD player has no record function either, so the answer is - there will be a software based encoding application that complements the player.

[number6]

A DVD player has no record function either, so the answer is - there will be a software based encoding application that complements the player.

Apologies for pursuing this. What I'm asking is, where or how will the DVDs be recorded when using REDRAY for playback? My understanding was that it will be possible to playback a two hour movie in 4K, but I don't understand where or how the dual layered DVD gets recorded in the first place?

edit: never mind... I re-read your post and it is now clear. Sorry

[Yannick Sadler]

I really think RS-422 VTR emulation is a must. Cost is marginal considering that you already have a good CPU/ASIC for the video stuff. You only need a connector, a few resistor on the board and two free I/O pin on the ASIC. Software library for this already exists and are mature. That will take care of the theater market.

Ethernet is also a very interesting feature. It could provide remote control via web client but eventually through SNMP and then it could be used in more complex environments like museums or external multimedia show where you need to project large images from a distance over big surfaces (like old building). But more important, to be used as a media server where you could upload stuff through FTP on a HD (internal or Firewire).

In fact I see two very different type of use for this:

1. Basic mode where there is an "operator" beside the machine that put the disc than play/stop. Kind of an iPod on steroids.

2. Unattended mode where media are feed either manually or remotely and it's remotely controlled by an automated device.

If cost is a factor, I wouldn't have a problem with two models:
-Basic player (<1K$)
-Pro (some $ more): automation options, internal HD (of course the casing might need a little expansion)

I beg you not get suck up the DRM delirium. It's totally counter-productive for you type of market because:

1. It take a _lot_ of resources of the programming side,
2. Cost a lot if you license existing schemes.
3. It's a real pain for the user
4. And even if you target the thing as a very wide mass market product, I sincerely doubt that studios will ever release a movie for this machine. I hardly see Sony release their movies to a concurrent technology that has a gizzilion more pixel than their format.

Oops, I almost forgot: a remote! Another one to loose between the couch cushions. But then you need to add a remote locator that can point in the direction of the lost remote with a laser pointer when you loose it. :bleh:

[Peace Villow]

Just saw the RED RAY ports on the brochure, I didn't see any audio port.
Any idea guys???

[Dylan Reeve]

Just saw the RED RAY ports on the brochure, I didn't see any audio port.
Any idea guys???

HD-SDI/SDI and HDMI are both able to carry embedded audio.

[Peace Villow]

A little bit OT:
I really don't have any idea about the audio world.
So this is my question:

How is the 5.1 surround sound works with this embedded audio?
Is there a hardware that will convert this embedded audio to 5.1 surround sound?

[Paul Leeming]

A couple of notes and thoughts:

- For audio being embedded in HDMI/HD-SDI, a lot of people use amplifiers to re-route the audio part away from the monitor path. With quad ports, I'm pretty sure there's no current amplifier at the consumer level that can pull audio from one specific port in this quad-streaming case even if they HAVE four of the relevant ports that can be synced as one source. It might be wise to include at least one optical/coaxial sound output for that application.

- DRM - please don't use it, or at the very least make it optional. Not only will it suck up resources, be a pain in the you-know-what, etc, but it will be broken so quickly it will end up being a complete waste of time. I'd prefer an unencrypted format so it won't be obsoleted or made unplayable in the future when support is shelved.

- Definitely have a remote as well as RS422 functionality.

- Make the outer case stackable with locking options (I do see a threaded hole on the two sides, maybe this is already planned). In line with the remote option, allow for remote/unit syncing in the case of multiple units.

HTH!

Paul

[Peace Villow]

Instead of using HD-SDI, why not using 3G-SDI.
Its operate at 2.97 Gb/s, twice the clock HD-SDI and is designed to carry 2K DI images.

Blackmagic-design use this 3G-SDI in their workhub products.
It's only need 1 port to stream 2K images.

[ZeissUser]

The posthouses even had *more* interest.
Their mayor concern, and i have to say, reservation, is that the HUGE mayority of all of them is basically in TC / VTR land. If they do 1080P/2K, HDCAM and HDCAM SR is pretty much the >90% workhorse here. For offline, its still mainly Digibeta. They all dont want to understand raw workflows yet, and many dont see the davantages but only the disadvantages (to slow, to incompatible, no hd-sdi in an hd-sdi infrastructure, no *direct* online on an avid/discreet, anotehr steps, yada yada, you know their points).

If redray works with a VTR control for them, it would be a *totally* well selling player for them. They would basically not use the raw advantages, but at once would integrate RED into their supported format lists.

Another example, there are *many* very very successful editors out there, who surpringsly work on vintage systems (lightworks, discreet edit, old pre-adrenaline avids to name a few). They have "their" systems, are working lightspeed fast with them and are often 50,60 years and have *no* interest in computers at all. Some of them had #1 in the boxoffice several times, and computer still are bizarre systems to them.

These people dont get REDs current workflow at all, as they only know offline and a VTR style. red ray with TC rs 422 control would be highly appealing to them as well, all of them which i got on the phone asked at once if redray is sony/panasonic protocol controlled.


I agree completely!!! The established (and HIGHLY esteemed) post houses here are just not setup to handle P2/RED cards and always ask, "where does it end up" In other words, if we accept your nonlinear media cards, what do we master to? The answer is almost always DigiBeta for broadcast spots, so they ask why not just originate on a tape format? Freelance DP's do not generally have access to DigiBeta decks and like it or not, the professional post production industry for TV commercials is built around an SDI and LTC timecode workflow. Proprietary formats generally do not fly with this crowd, in the midwest USA. I am currently stuck shooting DVCProHD and HDV with 35mm adapters because of this and I know I am not alone. Everyone loves the RED image quality, but the workflow is not compatible with the way things are done. Your workflow is better for image quality, just not always practical in a world where universal compatibility is more important. Just speaking with one of the busiest camera rentals houses in the area, they said they don't know of anyone doing spots with the RED camera. If it were as simple as exporting from RED software to the Avid DNxHD codec to a hard drive, people would be doing it. But, as you may have heard, there is an issue with Quicktime's handling of the Gamma Tags that makes this process basically impossible. So, it all comes down to taking the SDI output from the Mac, going out to a DigiBeta deck, and then recapturing to the Avid Adrenaline. We all wish these projects could be edited in HD, of course, but not all post houses have HDcam decks.

A standalone player with HD-SDI and timecode would convert a lot of people in this area... Even at $5k or $10k, it would be a HOT item, I think..

[Ben A.]

Here is my 2 cents:

1. Add a gigabit ethernet port.. Lets Make this the next Gen Apple TV. Also a central computer could stream footage to it or remotely control when what footage plays for theater automation.

2. Add a 40 GB or bigger HD to it. This way you can load/store footage on it, and movie theaters could load all their ads on it for looped playback until movie time starts.

3. Have a Wifi remote instead of IR.

[Jörgen Persson]

A standalone player with HD-SDI and timecode would convert a lot of people in this area... Even at $5k or $10k, it would be a HOT item, I think..

A rackmounted device
Front: CF slot(s), Shelf/tray for RedRaid, FW800 connector, USB connector.
Touchpanel display with settings.

Back: HDMI, HD-SDI, SDI downconvert, VTR control, Gigabit ethernet.

Software:
Apply .looks via web interface. Superimpose metadata.
Point to a folder containing r3d on local network for output.

More or less a realtime hardware Redcine with VTR control.
Excellent for offline in traditional tape based workflows.

[laguun]

A rackmounted device
Front: CF slot(s), Shelf/tray for RedRaid, FW800 connector, USB connector.
Touchpanel display with settings.

Back: HDMI, HD-SDI, SDI downconvert, VTR control, Gigabit ethernet.

Software:
Apply .looks via web interface. Superimpose metadata.
Point to a folder containing r3d on local network for output.

More or less a realtime hardware Redcine with VTR control.
Excellent for offline in traditional tape based workflows.

guys, you are designing a new product :)
All good ideas, but i suppose red ray should be keept simple.
.looks file are a great idea, also the web interface and gigabit ether - sadly they all add *full* new layers of debugging, issues, necessary hardware & software, protocol support etc.

3G HD-SDI is also nice, but its not compatible with >98% of the 100.000s existing HD-SDI devices in studios, stations, venues, museums, posthouses etc.

maybe we should start another thread beside the RS422/232 control, EPIC red ray :)

[Peace Villow]

A rackmounted device
Front: CF slot(s), Shelf/tray for RedRaid, FW800 connector, USB connector.
Touchpanel display with settings.

Back: HDMI, HD-SDI, SDI downconvert, VTR control, Gigabit ethernet.

Software:
Apply .looks via web interface. Superimpose metadata.
Point to a folder containing r3d on local network for output.

More or less a realtime hardware Redcine with VTR control.
Excellent for offline in traditional tape based workflows.
Dude... this thing is wayyy beyond RED RAY :biggrin:

Another one from me is 3D LUT support.

[Jörgen Persson]

Dude... this thing is wayyy beyond RED RAY :biggrin:

Another one from me is 3D LUT support.

Hey. It's a wishlist. I aim for the stars. Maybe we get VTR control tops. But that is ok :biggrin:

[martinnoweck]

i don't know if this has been mentioned before, but it should also be possible to use red ray as multimedia feeder for museums, trade shows, etc. which provides 4 different 2k images at the same time - a 4k splitscreen!

so another reason, why rs422 / rs 232 could be quite useful ...

just my 2 cents - regards, martin

[JohnF]

As the rule goes "keep it simple":

1: Plays REDRAY
2. Plays R3D
3. Has RS232/422
4. HD-SDI (audio+TC embedded) + HDMI (?)
5. Data outs

6. Small, therefore portable and easy to install
7. Keep the price, keep the price!

JohnF

[Seán_T]

I just found this thread and I'd have to say that we would have a similar requirements.
Dual link HDSDI at max quality, VTR Control for our non native systems (Autodesk, Avid)
Potentially something along the lines of 2K HSDL (kind of old fashioned)
Embedded audio.
Keyboard, Mouse, Monitor output. Or remote java app login to manage configs.

And available before 2009 :biggrin:


As the rule goes "keep it simple":
1: Plays REDRAY
2. Plays R3D
3. Has RS232/422
4. HD-SDI (audio+TC embedded) + HDMI (?)
5. Data outs

6. Small, therefore portable and easy to install
7. Keep the price, keep the price!

JohnF

[Vincent Rice]

Oh by the way, did I mention that it needs RS232/422 control?

<ducks>

[Vincent Rice]

I'm not completely au fait with how quad HD-SDI/HDMI 4K is implemented (is it actually a standard yet?) eg: is it actually just four 1080 pictures? I ask because somebody above mentioned using the four outputs as separate synchronised 1080 signals. This would indeed be awesome for advertising/AV media purposes.

[MikeCurtis]

I recall talking to Stuart at the first NAB and suggesting deck control ports on the camera from the get-go.

Laguun etc. - while it would be cool to have a transcoding, burning, DRM-enabled, deck controllable device for studio work and theatrical presentation that allows for automation....that is a COMPLETELY different device than a sub-$1000 player that will play .R3D from DVD or CF or attached FW drive (be it Red Drive or generic drive).

Stuart - any idea on the file structure, navigation, controls? I realize it is early, but is the plan to have a menu structure possible, or is it just a list of files, pick one and go? Or maybe include a .txt file that tells the player which files to play in which order upon insertion, and then you can go to the Menu to play whatever else is attached?

Thoughts at this point, or too early to tell?

I'd love this thing to be able to support motion menus with rollovers etc, so that properly formatted, end client grade delivery stuff could be done.

-mike

[MikeCurtis]

...and yeah, the option to configure for:
-a single quad link 4K output
-a single dual link output
-two dual link outputs (just pass the signal through to the other pair of ports)
-1-4 identical HD outputs (again, just replicate the signal - drive 4 screens!)

...would be very cool.

But again, the point is to have a low price point for wide adoption. Is it to be a consumer device (lowest possible cost because widest possible deployment to amortize dev costs), a post/studio device (higher feature set, hence higher price), or a theatrical presentation device with automation, security and the like? (...which would entail more R&D, more development for a MUCH smaller user base, hence MUCH higher price point - seen DCI server prices????).

I say start with the low cost consumer device, then see if there is market to go from there.

The fact that they are developing a device that will play source .R3D files from CF or drives, AS WELL AS long form 4K from DVD-9 or FireWire drive (some kind of RGB Redcode with keyframes/long GOP? Or will they do like DVDs/Blu-ray/broadcast and go 4:2:0 Y'CbCr to further reduce bandwidth requirements?) is GREAT.

Take Awesomeness 1.0, then see if 2.0 is forthcoming. More features you try to cram in there, the longer it takes to develop and the more it costs. If Red Ray works as described at the stated price point and ships in a year I'll happilly buy one.

[laguun]

I recall talking to Stuart at the first NAB and suggesting deck control ports on the camera from the get-go.

Laguun etc. - while it would be cool to have a transcoding, burning, DRM-enabled, deck controllable device for studio work and theatrical presentation that allows for automation....that is a COMPLETELY different device than a sub-$1000 player that will play .R3D from DVD or CF or attached FW drive (be it Red Drive or generic drive).



I dont think so. We easily would have sold 3 last month alone. Some of our customers as venues, operas and museums buy in average ~20 channels / projections a year. You should not forget that there is a lot of cinema going on besides the "usual" fullfeature presentation in culture, arts, festivals and events, and they all -need- automation, which can easily be provided by RS232/422 control.