Scarlet vs. HVX

[REDneck]

many people keep bringing up the HV20 as a competitor to the Scarlet... well, that's not really a fair fight, is it? RAW vs HDV? tiny consumer cam vs pro gear?

the Scarlet strikes me more as a potential winner for the HVX crowd. assuming the Scarlet can shoot various frame sizes and data rates, that will make it similar to the HVX. it records to solid state media -- just like the HVX. it has variable frame rates -- ditto the HVX. neither accommodates interchangeable lenses. they are natural competitors.

the HVX contains everything needed to shoot other than P2 media for $5000. the Scarlet needs a few add-ons but costs $3000.

so the question is... how will the footage compare?

the Scarlet's 2/3" sensor is large, but the HVX has three 1/3" CCDs. 3k res is a lot of pixels for the size of the Scarlet's sensor, but the HVX can't even max out the detail on a 1080 frame so i don't expect it to win in that department.

the HVX has beautiful colour handling but fails to impress in low light. it certainly doesn't have as much latitude as the RED One, but that's the $18,000 model.

what kind of look does $3,000 get you? how will the Scarlet stack up against the HVX? that's what i'm wondering. anyone care to speculate?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

720p vs 3k RAW.....pretty easy for me.....hvx reached yesterday end of live

[Joshua Murray]

I'm assuming Scarlet will blow the HVX out of the water as far as image quality goes. I use a hv20 now, I'm going to get rid of it as soon as I get scarlet.

[REDneck]

this is the assumption, and if this is the case then why is anyone talking about the HV20? The HVX blows the HV20 out of the water and costs what a Scarlet costs.

if the Scarlet blows the HVX out of the water, now that's something to talk about. it's hard to believe there have been so many threads about interchangeable lenses...

[QManning]

The HVX has a lot going for it, however, that can't be overlooked simply because it shoots less definition.

* Ability to record to HD and to larger card formats
* Familiar form-factor
* Focus-Assist
* More powerful/faster lens
* Bevy of 35mm adapters already on the market
* Familiar workflow
* Ability to shoot miniDV format for non-HD necessary projects (weddings, visual storyboards, etc)
* Viewfinder :p

The camera also has issues. Resolution is one. 1/3 chip is another.

[Tom Lowe]

HVX is old technology circa late 2005/early 2006. That's an eternity in digital cinema technology. Better to compare Scarlet (which doesn't have a release date yet) with other upcoming offerings from Sony, Panavision, etc. Or compare it to the EX1 or EX3. No one knows how much Scarlet will cost once you add on accessories, etc.

It will probably blow away most them away, especially for the price.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

The HVX did its job perfectly, it will be remembered with affection.

The future is RED\Scarlet.

[Gunleik Groven]

You can buy mine and compare...

[QManning]

Gunleik - sell it to me for $2k and maybe I would ;) :p

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Gunleik - sell it to me for $2k and maybe I would ;) :p

spent 1k more and buy a scarlet :)

[kmikami]

The HVX blows the HV20 out of the water

Oh really? In features maybe but in image quality? The HVX may have an edge but it's hardly a blowout.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

with 3k i can downscale to 2k and make a filmoutput....what to i do with 720p ?

[Gunleik Groven]

spent 1k more and buy a scarlet :)

LOL

I'll buy a Scarlet, but it won't be here today.
And an HVX package with extra everything for 2k is still (for a year or so) a bit too low...

[mike luzansky]

I was at NAB yesterday and I sure cant wait for Scarlett, but the reality is thats at least a year away, so the HVX is here to stay in my book for the meantime.

[Davide B.]

The new HVX200a is supposed to have the same low light capabilities as the Sony EX1. Also, since it's a 3ccd camera it doesn't have the rolling shutter problems that a CMOS camera like Scarlet could. But yeah, resolution-wise scarlet will definitely be better.

[Tom Lowe]

Oh really? In features maybe but in image quality? The HVX may have an edge but it's hardly a blowout.

Definitely not a blowout. And in theory, I think you can get 1920x1080 with 4:2:2 color space and square pixels off the HV20's HDMI. I don't know if that has every been settled definitively, though.

I used to own the HVX and the HV20, and the images are not that far apart. Features, of course, go to the HVX. HVX is also better with motion, I think.

[QManning]

I was at NAB yesterday and I sure cant wait for Scarlett, but the reality is thats at least a year away, so the HVX is here to stay in my book for the meantime.

precisely

[REDneck]

Definitely not a blowout. And in theory, I think you can get 1920x1080 with 4:2:2 color space and square pixels off the HV20's HDMI. I don't know if that has every been settled definitively, though.

I used to own the HVX and the HV20, and the images are not that far apart. Features, of course, go to the HVX. HVX is also better with motion, I think.

oh... in my opinion it's a blowout. i worked in post on a show with Viper A cam, HVX B cam and HV20 C cam. some of the HVX was almost indistinguishable from the Viper, but the HV20's images always felt like a cold dose of ugly reality.

i'm interested in how yesterday's $5000 winner will compare to tomorrow's...

[Tom Lowe]

oh... in my opinion it's a blowout. i worked in post on a show with Viper A cam, HVX B cam and HV20 C cam. some of the HVX was almost indistinguishable from the Viper, but the HV20's images always felt like a cold dose of ugly reality.


hmmm.... interesting.

[John Caballero]

Panasonic is not standing still, you can bet on that. Look what they did April 14, 2008. They announced quite a few cameras with improved CCDs and other things. They are going to sell a ton of them THIS YEAR for people that need them and want them now.
And do you seriously think that the engineers at headquarters, or wherever the heck they are, are going to take a year off and wait to see what Scarlet is going to be and then say: Oh we better come out with something similar or better, we are so behind….. Please, wake up and understand technology, marketing, sales. Panasonic is part of the big boys of this business. They are working on tomorrow’s technology while they stuff their coffers with lots of money from their existing products of today.
I have an HVX and want a Scarlet but my eyes are wide open to the real world.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

would you buy today a hvx?
or would you rent and wait?

[REDneck]

the price will drop with the announcement of the HVX-200a.... good time to buy an HVX. use it a lot, then sell it when you're done (or want to buy a scarlet or whatever) and you won't lose money on the deal.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

the price will drop with the announcement of the HVX-200a.... good time to buy an HVX. use it a lot, then sell it when you're done (or want to buy a scarlet or whatever) and you won't lose money on the deal.

who will buy the hvx in 12 months...?

[Peter Majtan]

720p vs 3k RAW.....pretty easy for me.....hvx reached yesterday end of live

You may wanna "edit" Your "yesterday" to "EARLY 2009" (Subject to change :devil: )...
Yeah - and "live" for "life" - but that is just typo, no hard feelings... :innocent:

[Cüneyt Kaya]

You may wanna "edit" Your "yesterday" to "EARLY 2009" (Subject to change :devil: )...
Yeah - and "live" for "life" - but that is just typo, no hard feelings... :innocent:

why?
its only the message that counts...
i tell you all the indies who thought of buying a cam will wait...

but is early 2009 counted in red years?

[WesVasher]

I wouldn't characterize Scarlet as competing with the HV20 but I'd say that many users who are currently using HV20s are going to move up to Scarlet quickly. I know I will. I'm not interested in spending 6 grand on a camera for my personal projects but if I could get a Red camera for 3 grand then that is a pretty freaking easy purchase decision. :)

Just have to decide which new Mac I'm going to have to save up for.

[Peter Majtan]

I'm assuming Scarlet will blow the HVX out of the water as far as image quality goes. I use a hv20 now, I'm going to get rid of it as soon as I get scarlet.

Don't throw away Your HV20 just yet, unless You have a PBs :w00t: (PETA BYTES) of RAID-protected storage to keep all Your footage safe... DV tape has a shelf life of over 12 years and costs peanuts for its 13GB capacity...

[Luis Caffesse]

would you buy today a hvx?
or would you rent and wait?

If you need to shoot, then why rent and wait?

We're talking about cameras at such ridiculously low price points for the quality of image they produce. Between now and when Scarlet is released you're looking at minimum of a year. That is more than enough time to shoot with an HVX (or any other camera) and make the cost of the camera back many many many times over.

Just make sure you save some of that income for Scarlet.
:)

[Cüneyt Kaya]

If you need to shoot, then why rent and wait?

We're talking about cameras at such ridiculously low price points for the quality of image they produce. Between now and when Scarlet is released you're looking at minimum of a year. That is more than enough time to shoot with an HVX (or any other camera) and make the cost of the camera back many many many times over.

Just make sure you save some of that income for Scarlet.
:)

i am thinking more of the students/ultra indies.....the starving artist type

[Luis Caffesse]

i am thinking more of the students/ultra indies.....the starving artist type

My two cents:

If you can shoot now - then shoot.
Waiting for the 'next big thing' does nothing for you but waste time - time that could be spent shooting, editing, and getting better at your craft.

If you cannot generate income from your gear then personally I don't see much reason to buy unless you plan on shooting on a very regular basis. But that's just me.

If you can borrow - then borrow.
If you can rent better gear than you can buy and don't plan on shooting more than a few times a year, then rent.
If you can afford to buy and need to shoot often enough to justify a purchase - then buy the best you can afford at the time you need to shoot.
But the important thing is to keep working.

I don't see waiting as a good option.
Not when we're talking about waiting a year or more.

Basically - in my opinion - the decision as to whether you should rent or buy shouldn't be based on what is coming out in the future, it should be based on your present needs and financial situation.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

past,present,future...the truth is somewhere between

[jonahlee]

At this price level, I have a feeling that the demand for the Scarlet will far outweigh the supply for quite some time, because for this price anyone can afford it. I am wondering if people who purchased a RED One will get first priority?

[HD Bubaloo]

First there is misleading info that has not been corrected. The AG-HVX200, (now the AG-HVX200A, has new chips) is not HDV. Its DVCPRO HD, which is 100Mbs not 19-24mbs like HDV. It is not MPEG based compression which is why it looks better and does not have motion artifacts like HDV cameras.


Thats all.

It is however Pixel Shifted to make up the resolution.
The Scarlet (which is subject to change and doesn't exist yet) is slated at 3k using the Bayer process so in the end is 2K. Still much better than DVCPRO HD.

Just my 2 cents.

[Peter Majtan]

I wouldn't characterize Scarlet as competing with the HV20 but I'd say that many users who are currently using HV20s are going to move up to Scarlet quickly. I know I will. I'm not interested in spending 6 grand on a camera for my personal projects but if I could get a Red camera for 3 grand then that is a pretty freaking easy purchase decision. :)

Just have to decide which new Mac I'm going to have to save up for.

For 3K workflow? Mac Pro with two 30" displays (positioned vertically) and ATI card (Nvidia does not support vertical placement) - this will give You 3200x2560 pixel desktop...

[WesVasher]

I doubt I'd work at 3K other than FX shot plates. I think you'd want to shoot everything at 3K just to have the highest quality source footage but I can't see any reason to actually work at the size for my personal projects. If I could do that on a MacBook Pro I'd be all set. It'll be interesting.

[Uli Plank]

And in theory, I think you can get 1920x1080 with 4:2:2 color space and square pixels off the HV20's HDMI. I don't know if that has every been settled definitively, though.

Yes, it works, and I was able to pull some nice keys from footage captured live through Blackmagic's Intensity card.

I love my little HV20 and I'm gonna keep it next to our RED One. It's a great camcorder for guerilla shooting. Everybody will stare if you have a Scarlett, not even to mention a RED One …

Regards,

Uli

[Tom Lowe]

nomad, if you ever get a chance, could you please post some 1920x1080 HV20 HDMI footage in the Off Topic forum here?

[kmikami]

oh... in my opinion it's a blowout. i worked in post on a show with Viper A cam, HVX B cam and HV20 C cam. some of the HVX was almost indistinguishable from the Viper, but the HV20's images always felt like a cold dose of ugly reality.

Yes but another way to look at it is that you worked on a show that intercut footage from a $1000 cam, a $5000 cam, and the Viper (don't know the cost)! That says something.

[Chris Kenny]

Well, here's my take (http://www.indie4k.com/archives/86) on Scarlet vs. HVX200, anyway. Seems pretty clear cut to me, at least for indie filmmakers.

[REDneck]

nice breakdown, thanks.

i love the HVX, but i will most likely bow down to our new RED overlords when the Scarlet becomes available

[brandon thomas]

if i had to buy a camera today.. i'd seriously consider the new hpx170.. and then sell it when early 2009 rolls around....

[REDneck]

well considering it's due in fall 2008, that's not such a great idea....