Cinema Lens Servo?

[Matthew Rogers]

Okay, first I wanna state what a cinema lens is...either a S35, 35, or 16 mm lens. Now, onto my thoughts.

I know when I get a RED cam, I will want to shoot both Cinema style and ENG. Therefore, I am looking at getting a zoom lens like the RED Zoom. However, when I need to shoot ENG it seems stupid that I would need to get something like the 2/3" converter along with a servo zoom lens when I have a perfectly beautiful piece of glass sitting there already. When you look at an HD lens, it's fairly close to a cinema lens--except size... Is the reason that they don't have a servo for cinema lenses because each lens is a different size? That's really the only reason I can see for not making servos for zooms (well, besides the fact that cinema lenses haven't been used for ENG since the 70's.)

What do you all think? It seems like there might be a new market for S35 lenses with servos since the RED might start being used for news.

Matthew Rogers

[chuck colburn]

Is this a joke?

[Matthew Rogers]

Is this a joke?

Why would it be a joke? In ENG, there are plenty of times when you need a servo zoom because you don't have a dolly/stedicam/jib to get a certain shot. It just seems dumb to have to buy a 2/3" lens when you have a beautiful cinema zoom lens that just needs a servo to work as a ENG lens. I think you would find many people in this forum who would like that feature.

Maybe my first post is not clear. Let me know if that's the case.

Remember, the RED cam is all about pushing limits of cinema. Personally, using a cinema lens in a ENG setting doesn't seem that out of left field.

Matthew Rogers

[Brainstorm]

Why would it be a joke? In ENG, there are plenty of times when you need a servo zoom because you don't have a dolly/stedicam/jib to get a certain shot. It just seems dumb to have to buy a 2/3" lens when you have a beautiful cinema zoom lens that just needs a servo to work as a ENG lens. I think you would find many people in this forum who would like that feature.

Maybe my first post is not clear. Let me know if that's the case.

Remember, the RED cam is all about pushing limits of cinema. Personally, using a cinema lens in a ENG setting doesn't seem that out of left field.

Matthew Rogers


Hi Macville...

If anyone thinks you're being stupid, then I'm being stupid with you. I don't think there's anything at all funny (or wrong) with your question. Personally, I think RED will find a much bigger market if somebody can come up with a really workable solution that will allow 35mm servo-driven zoom lenses to be used. Unfortunately, such lenses don't yet exist... but there's now a really good reason that they should and it's called RED!

If you do find a solution, I'd be one of the first people who'd like to hear it. :sorcerer:

Cheers
Brainstorm

P.S. If a solution is possible, you'll probably only see it for 35mm not s35 though!

[Charles Papert]

There are in fact 35mm cine lenses that have built-in zoom motors, such as the Panavision Primo zooms. For the majority, an outboard zoom motors is mounted (traditionally a Heden, these days more often a Preston). However the controllers are always outboard, either mounted at the end of the pan handle (called a "rock and roll handle") similar to a broadcast setup, or used handheld by a camera assistant, or sometimes via a wireless lens controller.

Most 35mm zooms are too heavy to handhold, while Super16mm zooms are perfectly fine, often used for documentary work this way and some of which are actually based on 2/3" video lens optics (from Canon and Fujinon). Still, the zoom control is mounted outboard, as a front handgrip.

The main reason you wouldn't want to use the RED zoom for ENG type work is the shallow depth of field. It would be pointless to try to get run-and-gun shots with this setup, you'd be shooting soft stuff all the time. Also, realize that the zoom range on the RED zoom is less than a 5x, while most ENG shooters are using 14x-20x lenses. You'd be seriously restricted compared to the competition on the telephoto end. And you'd need to be riding the iris manually, all this while gamely trying to get SOMETHING in focus on the long end of the lens...bottom line, it would be a really cumbersome setup, both literally as you pointed out in terms of weight and size, but also operationally. Two very different applications and animals.

[Brainstorm]

Thank you Charles for posting an informative reply that wasn't condescending. I'm a producer/director not a DOP and I admit I'm going through a fast learning curve with all these lens issues... but at least I'm trying to find a way to make my films look better than "everyday HD".

Cheers
Brainstorm

[David Limpus]

Charles,

With the change in resolution do you see that ENG shoots will be wider and use a pan and scan process may happen to extract a Broadcast HD picture then downrez a 4k frame with a tighter shoot?

Thanks
David

[Martin Ludwig]

this is another example for big surprises - Macville - do you know that the
Red Zoom with 18 - 85 mm is around 7.2mm to 34 mm compared to a B4 mounted camera? so if you are thinking the Red Zoom is like a Fujinon 15x8
you are totally wrong. A long version could be an angenieux with 25-250 mm, that´s about 10 to 100mm - with this lens you could shoot eng style - but this lens is heavy! To shoot Eng you have to use an ENG lens....

[Matthew Rogers]

There are in fact 35mm cine lenses that have built-in zoom motors, such as the Panavision Primo zooms. For the majority, an outboard zoom motors is mounted (traditionally a Heden, these days more often a Preston). However the controllers are always outboard, either mounted at the end of the pan handle (called a "rock and roll handle") similar to a broadcast setup, or used handheld by a camera assistant, or sometimes via a wireless lens controller.

I was guessing that there was some kind of lens already, but hadn't been able to find it. I'm guessing that buy the time I would buy a Preston servo that it would have been cheaper to buy the converter and a 2/3" lens (plus the 2/3" lens might be more elegant.)


Most 35mm zooms are too heavy to handhold, while Super16mm zooms are perfectly fine, often used for documentary work this way and some of which are actually based on 2/3" video lens optics (from Canon and Fujinon). Still, the zoom control is mounted outboard, as a front handgrip.

The main reason you wouldn't want to use the RED zoom for ENG type work is the shallow depth of field. It would be pointless to try to get run-and-gun shots with this setup, you'd be shooting soft stuff all the time. Also, realize that the zoom range on the RED zoom is less than a 5x, while most ENG shooters are using 14x-20x lenses. You'd be seriously restricted compared to the competition on the telephoto end. And you'd need to be riding the iris manually, all this while gamely trying to get SOMETHING in focus on the long end of the lens...bottom line, it would be a really cumbersome setup, both literally as you pointed out in terms of weight and size, but also operationally. Two very different applications and animals.

I had been wondering about using S16 lenses since I knew they were lighter and that's what had been used for most news gathering pre 80's. The only times I am using the full zoom on my lenses are when I am trying to get a shallow depth of field, or when I am in the back of a room and am shooting a subject that would not move or stay in the same plane of focus. I never use more than 45mm for handheld because it becomes too shaky.

Another thought is, if you shoot 4k, or even 2k, and end up going to 1080P, in your NEL, you have latitude for zooming in and out. That will be great for me because I do allot of interviews and like using subtle pushes.

Knowing the filmmaking/ENG community I am sure that someone will come up with a great solution fairly quickly.

Matthew Rogers

[Charles Papert]

I've only had brushes with the news world over the years, and it was before the advent of a lot of this stuff, but it seems to me like the pace and workflow in that sector precludes the concept of "shoot high-res and reframe as needed"...the requisite rendering time seems out of the question on a normal basis...?

I would think that if you need to monetize your camera investment by shooting news but also want to make films, you are probably better off initially getting a video zoom lens and using that, and adding the cine lens down the road. This may sound like heresy ("what about 4K?!? what about the shallow depth of field?!?") but many films and television shows have and are being shot on Varicams and F900's with the eqivalent size sensor of the RED windowed to 1080, and it can look fantastic ("Battlestar Galactica" comes to mind). In other words, you can compete neck and neck with the next guy in the ENG world without the compromises I listed above and keep getting hired, then shoot your narrative films with the same setup and if you do a good job, no-one will question what resolution you used.

[tj williams]

Hi Charles, hope you are keepin Steadi...

a. I believe that the auto iris control will not activate from an HD lens installed on the RED? So manual iris will be part of the deal. ie no quick flip of the switch when moving into a new lighting circumstance, to get close to proper exposure then flip back to manual iris to tweak as you go...We will just have to manually roll iris when walking thru the door!

b. The picture visa vis S16 lenses and HD lenses is even worse for S16 than you paint, because you are not mentioning the doubler on broadcast lenses.

I've got a regular sports gig that involves shooting upper body of sports figures warming up across a field, and interviews in 8mm wide. There just are no S16 lenses that will do that.

For those unfamliar with the HD lens my 18/XCAnon starts at about 8.5 and zooms out 18X then by flipping the doubler lever I have almost another 18X of zoom left in the Tele. end. Thats about a 35X lens....

[Charles Papert]

Good notes TJ, can you tell I don't do much shooting on video zooms anymore??! Thanks for the clarifications. keeping Steadi indeed! you too...