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Jannard
04-15-2008, 10:08 PM
Sorry... dictatorship is winning big here.

We will listen very carefully, but this is not a "vote for options" program.

If you want that, start your own company.

Jim

Daniel Gourley
04-15-2008, 10:12 PM
No Problems here. This is a great indie camera!

Daniel Browning
04-15-2008, 10:12 PM
I, for one, welcome our Mysterium-wielding RED Overlords.

Ethan Cooper
04-15-2008, 10:12 PM
I think you have a right to be cranky.

**EDIT**
Hell, I'm not even a self-made billionaire business tycoon and I find it very annoying when bottom dwelling video production wannabe's (of which I am one) sit around and moan about a camera that without your company had no chance of existing at all for at least another 5 years much less at this price point.
If I were you, I'd tell us all to go f@#$ ourselves shut down the whole damn operation and go do something much less stressful like shoot wildlife for a living, on a Panasonic 3700... that only does 1080... at 30p... a whole 2 years after you told them where the industry was heading... don't think they got the memo.
________
Edge (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Edge)

Steven Blye
04-15-2008, 10:13 PM
I'm just glad you seem committed to not leaving me out. The price is more than I could have hoped for and I don't want it changing.

Andy Jackson
04-15-2008, 10:14 PM
I hate it when people give me an unprecedented product at unheard of prices... I'm definitely starting my own company! Seriously, Jim... with the Scarlet, you have an immense audience. It only goes to figure that with an increase in potential buyers, you'll have an increase in whiners. I know it is hard to ignore, and unfortunately the cry-babies are much easier to hear than the supporters, but you are changing the industry and you have already succeeded. I'm sure you already know all this, but I suppose you can never have too few encouraging words. Keep up the amazing work!

-Andy

John Godden
04-15-2008, 10:21 PM
Sorry... dictatorship is winning big here.

We will listen very carefully, but this is not a "vote for options" program.

If you want that, start your own company.

Jim

LOVE it!

"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude"

Keep shaking up the industry!
JohnG

Buck Forester
04-15-2008, 10:23 PM
I'm thinking you should cave to the complainers and reorganize under a 501(c) and become one of those thousand points of light, or something. I'm guessing some of these people also go to the Cracker Jacks forum and complain about the prize they got in their last box. Or maybe you should sell your company to Canon or Sony and they'd sell the same cameras for quadruple the price and we'd be back to the industry status quo. I'm just saying.

John Caballero
04-15-2008, 10:29 PM
Is it early 2009 already? Oh no, I was dreaming and just woke up.
Scarlet sounds good to me so far. Keep up the good work and start cranking them out asap.
You are the captain of your ship sir!

Martin Ludwig
04-15-2008, 10:30 PM
....
.... this is not a "vote for options" program.

If you want that, start your own company.

Jim

it couldn´t be said better! thanks for this clear words, maybe
jarred can open a new forum - www.mywishandneverwillhappenboard.com

Mr. Guiyotinne
04-16-2008, 12:05 AM
It´s either a $3000 pigeon sized Scarlet or a $13000 Sony with Interchangeable lenses but 1/2" chips and 4:2:0 and the size of a stuffed fish.

It´s either $3000 Scarlet or a $5000 Fixed lens, 1/3" chips, in a body of a Duck size. Plus P2...

It´s either $3000 Scarlet or a $8000 interchangeable lenses (¿Who?), 1/3" chips, HDV 4:2:0 and stucked into tape for three years because "it´s reliable". With the size of a deer butt doorbell.

If this is benevolent dictatorship, bring it on!

Fix
04-16-2008, 12:21 AM
Look at history, same thing happed with RED ONE at the beginning. A lot of whining from "I want it all for nothing" crowd. Be ashamed. Most of us get dreams come true by what the RED team is doing. And aim not the fan boy but the critical one. Give constructive criticism and I'm sure they listen.

Bang WOW Bang
04-16-2008, 12:28 AM
Sorry... dictatorship is winning big here.

We will listen very carefully, but this is not a "vote for options" program.

If you want that, start your own company.

Jim

I need RED Digital Cinema in CHINA and it's Greater China regions in the world ( 1.3 billion population of people are watching )

Believe in CHINA for the last 10 years in general development in the largest RED map under the RED flag with 5 stars ?

莊錦堂
Stewart Chong
Founder and CVO

" 滲 " 數碼娛樂 " WOW " Digitainment
a Division of WOW Holdings

Matt Gottshalk
04-16-2008, 12:40 AM
I, for one, welcome our Mysterium-wielding RED Overlords.

Hehehe, snort! +1

el_stupido
04-16-2008, 12:40 AM
I guess the man's gotta do what he thinks is best to have a product grid.

If the scarlett has interchangables it prob eats into the red one sales (remember that camera everyone?)... I think this camera is fantastic in spite of its name and fixed lens... The more I think about it the more I like it and Im sure there'll be a way to put 16mm primes on it or HD Primes on it by the time it comes out by Red or 3rd party... or maybe after it comes out.... we do all need to take a chill pill.

... And my gentle suggestion is (at the risk of ire) .... Maybe they should make the fixed or interchangeable an option and charge like an extra $3k for the interchangeable option... like that hardcore recording option you can have installed on the red if you need it. You know the one I'm talking about?

thanks for listening, thanks for these new cameras regardless.

El Stupido

Wendy Woods
04-16-2008, 12:46 AM
I was at NAB last year I could barely get close to the booth. I was at NAB this year I got close enough to grab a brochure. Maybe next year I will actually get onto the booth. Next year I will have the two cameras I ordered sight unseen. 3k 4k 5k these are cameras on steroids. Red has crushed the competition and is way out in front. Performance enhancing cameras that's it!!!
If you buy a Red you still have to step up to the plate and swing the bat.
IF YOU OWN A RED YOU GET TO USE A BIGGER BAT!!!!

diskojerk
04-16-2008, 12:58 AM
First they came for my film... And I said nothing...

Wendy Woods
04-16-2008, 01:57 AM
"I believe that the moment is near when by a procedure of active paranoiac thought, it will be possible to systematize confusion and contribute to the total discrediting of the world of reality." Salvador Dali

diskojerk, we can go on like this for months.

http://www.wisdomquotes.com

"We all know your never going to dance."
2poprob

WesVasher
04-16-2008, 05:21 AM
There's a misconception by some that Red is only putting a fixed lens on Scarlet to protect Red One sales. I don't believe this to be true at all. A fixed lens gets the price down to where many that could never afford an interchangeable lens Red can start shooting Red footage soon. That's a big deal. Red doesn't protect their product lines by crippling features, that's something other manufacturers do.

Joe D'Arcy
04-16-2008, 05:38 AM
A 3K camera for 3K. A 3K camera for 3K. A 3K camera for 3K. And there are complaints? Santa has been too generous and the doll house is the wrong colour... again.

klas
04-16-2008, 06:08 AM
I guess you'll not be able to change optics then...;) But now, as that seems to be your final word on this and there will be impossible to get a normal 16mm lens on the thing, maybe we could ask for some clever focus design. From watching the pictures it seems you'll have to autofocus the little thing, or pull some small video wheel on the side or something, right? Without a sensible way to pull focus and no way to mesure it there would be great with some kind of autofocus memory that you could step through with a button and maybe program the time the pulling should take or something... I know, it'd be clumsy as hell but I see no other way I could capture something good with it. I can't see myself pulling a little wheel desperatly watching some kind of monitor.

Or maybe a large focus wheel at the left side with a digital display with the focal length and a hook on the top for the mesure tape? That would be the best solution I guess..

But you've got it covered I guess...

dhazelrig
04-16-2008, 06:45 AM
Sorry... dictatorship is winning big here.

We will listen very carefully, but this is not a "vote for options" program.

If you want that, start your own company.

Jim

Mr. Jannard,

I certainly understand that you should have this sort of reaction. I've been following the boards since the Scarlet announcement, and it is a little annoying. However, it is to be expected. This is basic human nature and there is really nothing wrong with it. You gave people an open forum to discuss your work and your company. And as the leader of what some people might call a "movement", I would suggest that it might be more prudent to take the high road and not voice your frustrations with the plebs in such an open manner. Not from a business stand point, but from a personal one.

Yes, I realize that everyone else is voicing their opinion, why shouldn't you. I just suggest that in your position you rise above all of this. Bitch and complain to your fellow co-workers (I'm sure you guys at the office have had a few words over this Scarlet thing) but don't do it in front of the children.

Just a suggestion.

Thanks for listening...

-D

dieseljunkie
04-16-2008, 06:57 AM
The best solution would be a follow focus knob on the side of the camera. Now that would be neat. Having accepted that it is going to be a fixed focus lens, I hope they will ultimately make it a 10x T1.8 lens. And I hope that a lot of the manual controls will be on the outside and not burried in menus. They should take the D200 as a school example. Great ergonomics and button placement, which makes it a pleasure to work with it.

And about the tone of the RED corporate communication:

Dear Mr. Jannard,

I truly respect you. You started a revolution in the video/film industry with the RED ONE, and you pull it off again with the RED Scarlet. Great work and I cannot thank you enough for this.

But we live in a free world and a forum is used to discuss and voice opinions. You hyped this camera more then everything before it. What did you expect? That it would be perfect and everyone would say "hail the king (or queen that should be)". This is the downfall of hype.

I would ask a little bit more respect for those people who see room for improvement. I understand (and I would probably do the same) that you won't change anything. But what is wrong with asking for a faster lens or a lens mount? A lot of people are in the market for that, they are not cheap, as most of them are willing to pay a big premium for those features.

Keep up the good work but also show some respect for people who show interest and take time to react and share their thoughts on your product and announcements.

Pietro Impagliazzo
04-16-2008, 07:39 AM
Benevolent dictatorship is the way to go.

Imagine if filmmaking was a democratic process and even the studio janitor could interfere in the final product...

Democracy fails!

dhazelrig
04-16-2008, 07:45 AM
Benevolent dictatorship is the way to go.

Imagine if filmmaking was a democratic process and even the studio janitor could interfere in the final product...

Democracy fails!

Been there! I'll have to give you that one!

-D

Ethan Cooper
04-16-2008, 07:55 AM
For all you guys worrying about manual controls, stop. You didn't see any on the metal mockup because, well, it's a mockup and not a finished product. It's much like everyone freaking out because they didn't see any audio inputs. Did you really think that they wouldn't have audio on the camera?
Maybe it would be best if they shut down the Scarlet threads and let everyone take a collective breath for a while, come back in 6 to 9 months and show us a mostly functional prototype without having to listen to all this feedback that isn't going to change their minds much anyway.
________
Ipod Games (http://macgame.org)

Radoslav Karapetkov
04-16-2008, 08:00 AM
Benevolent dictatorship is the way to go.

Imagine if filmmaking was a democratic process and even the studio janitor could interfere in the final product...

Democracy fails!

In filmmaking - yes.

In society - NO!

Nick Wolf
04-16-2008, 08:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkoHTjx8siM&NR=1

I noticed Teds new jacket ... Spiffy..."Its fun to shake things up" he says ...

Ted - Just wait untill the Soccer Moms get on board! ... An idea for next years attire - "Red-Togas" ... Zip up the tent and let the games begin!

The passion and enthusiasm generated by this incredible Team, its Leader, and their hard work to bring a Revolutionary Vision to us, The People, far exceeds all expectation above and beyond the wildest of speculations, and most importantly;

It over shadows all the negativity spewed upon it by misanthropic mumblers whos only joy is to piss on our parade.

DogDay

Tyler
04-16-2008, 08:12 AM
For a camera like this at a price under 3 grand, this is a benevolent dictatorship I'm happy to live under.

And it sure beats those other dictatorships: Sony, Panny, etc.

Ameer Azari
04-16-2008, 08:18 AM
I like the Scarlet and I don't think anything NEEDS to change. I would buy it as it is for $8000, let alone $3000.

Will there be any Scarlet only accessories?

MistahTibbs
04-16-2008, 08:39 AM
Sorry... dictatorship is winning big here.

We will listen very carefully, but this is not a "vote for options" program.

If you want that, start your own company.

Jim

FINE!

Ok, let's see now.

Hmmm. Business model...wow. This is tough.

Raise some capital... *phone dialing and ringing* "Hello, Sean?" "Yeah, it's your brother." "Could you loan me, I don't know... ten million dollars?" "No?" "Why not?" "Cheap bastard." *hangs up phone*

Now I get to create a 3K camera for under $3000. This'll be easy.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.*ten seconds later* "Aw the hell with it."

*phone dialing and ringing*

"Hello? Red" "Yes, I'd like to order two Scarlets."

And there was joy...and common sense in the land.

FIN

Written, produced and directed by MistahTibbs

Shot on Scarlet

DVD & Blu-ray available sometime early 2009

Michael Brennan
04-16-2008, 08:53 AM
Have I missed something on this thread?

A manufacturer who directly and in person creates the impression to customers that he is not interested in their feedback?

Bad hair day Jim:)




Mike Brennan

Paula DiSante
04-16-2008, 08:56 AM
I'll admit, originally I thought "Oh, darn!" about the lens, because interchangeability was something I had really hoped for. But after seriously considering all of the amazing goodies that Scarlet will offer for the price, I realize it would be silly to complain. There's just too much potential in the camera to get worried about it.

So, is it 2009 yet?

wardovision
04-16-2008, 08:57 AM
Have I missed something on this thread?

A manufacturer who directly and in person creates the impression to customers that he is not interested in their feedback?

Mike Brennan
apparently you have. if you re-read his original post he says that he will carefully listen to requests but that the specs to this camera are basically laid in stone (and said the same thing long before NAB) What other company does even close to that? They all present a camera and you either buy it or don't.

RED rocks!!

Yannick Hagman
04-16-2008, 09:08 AM
At 2.8, it's a very good lens after all.

MistahTibbs
04-16-2008, 09:13 AM
Have I missed something on this thread?

A manufacturer who directly and in person creates the impression to customers that he is not interested in their feedback?

Bad hair day Jim:)




Mike Brennan

Hey Mike,

It's not that. If anything it reminds me (and this'll probably piss somebody off) of the odd occasion where one of my kids will get a present (something really nice that they've wanted) and it's not EXACTLY what they wanted and they complain about it.

It just seems...ungrateful.

3K for UNDER $3000!
1-120 fps
LCD
Audio
and so much more.

I'm going to get a bit "gushy" here but, from nearly ALL accounts RED is a camera that is a dream come true.

Scarlet is very likely to be a repeat of that success.

Again I'll say it. UNDER $3000!

UNDER $3000!

UNDER $3000!

With the feature set promised, if they deliver (not doubting, mind you), this cam is going to be a dream come true for FJ6P*.

Personally, my DVX100b cams are on the block once Scarlet is released and I'll be picking up a pair for my biz.

sincerely,


MT


*FJ6P = Film Joe Six-Pack

(is that too Canadian a saying?)

MistahTibbs
04-16-2008, 09:16 AM
I'll admit, originally I thought "Oh, darn!" about the lens, because interchangeability was something I had really hoped for. But after seriously considering all of the amazing goodies that Scarlet will offer for the price, I realize it would be silly to complain. There's just too much potential in the camera to get worried about it.

Well said.


So, is it 2009 yet?

*checks watch*
Not yet.


MT

ColinSmith
04-16-2008, 09:30 AM
I think it's clear that the forum is for us to talk, and for Red to take what they want from those discussions.
I'd hate to think that they feel the need to try and keep everybody happy all the time, but hope that what we say maybe gives them some feel in deciding the balance between otherwise equal priorities say.

So far we've been given about 10x what anybody would have asked for pre-Red, so what do we know anyhow? ;-)

dieseljunkie
04-16-2008, 10:02 AM
Scarlet can use many RED accessories.

And the camera is indeed amazing, but how can you say you are buying it when you haven't seen one image coming from it? Everyone is drooling over specifications. And specifications alone gets you nowhere. And the potential is amazing, but when you can't unleash it, for example when the lens is not that good, it would be a real pity. I think we (me included) just have to wait untill working prototypes surface and specifications are finalized.

Ryan Brown
04-16-2008, 10:23 AM
I would ask a little bit more respect for those people who see room for improvement.




but also show some respect for people who show interest and take time to react and share their thoughts on your product and announcements.

Since the first morning of NAB, the people on this site have made me sick, but I've kept quiet.

Statements like these make me want to speak up... and more.

The fact is, is that this camera will give an opportunity to hundreds of thousands (or more) of people that would otherwise not get that opportunity.

Does anyone realize there are infinitely more potential filmmakers, wannabe music video directors, videographers, and doc directors out there than already working industry pros? These people don't have tens of thousands of dollars to spend, and otherwise wouldn't have access to a tool that could really, honestly let them unleash that potential. Like I said, this camera give's them an opportunity to show what they can do (and yes, I'm keeping post productions costs in mind).

All you people saying you'd rather pay 2 to 3 time's what it's going for, if it only had this or that, look elsewhere for you're needs, or buy a RED one. This camera may not be for you.

Feedback is one thing, being self-centered is another.... and all I've seen around here lately is the latter. I 100% feel where Jannard's frustration is coming from.

Shame on you.



(p.s. This is not directed towards the satisfied, grateful people, obviously)

HD Bubaloo
04-16-2008, 10:27 AM
I am going to get a scarlet because I think it is the everyman's camera at its price point and feature set. There is nothing out there even close to it, and more than anything it will get Panasonic and Sony to make some leaps and bounds in this field. If it wasn't for Red, Sony and Panasonic would be content with 720 and 1080 for another 10 years. Now they have to work at it and also have to make it afordable. For that I am glad.

HD Bubaloo
04-16-2008, 10:31 AM
If this camera is 3k for $3k imagine how inexpensive it will be to rent at the rental houses! if an HVX-200 rents for $250 a day and its a $5,100 camera, I would imagine the Scarlet would be around $250/day as well.


Nice

More opportunities for amazing films to be made. Also more opportunities for crappy indie films that lack story to be told. At least with prettier pictures.

Radoslav Karapetkov
04-16-2008, 10:37 AM
If this camera is 3k for $3k imagine how inexpensive it will be to rent at the rental houses! if an HVX-200 rents for $250 a day and its a $5,100 camera, I would imagine the Scarlet would be around $250/day as well.


Nice

More opportunities for amazing films to be made. Also more opportunities for crappy indie films that lack story to be told. At least with prettier pictures.

Nobody will rent it cause everybody's gonna have 3. :)

dieseljunkie
04-16-2008, 10:39 AM
I respect everyone here.

But I am just being realistic. And the hundreds of thousands of people you talk of, I doubt Red will be able to make so many of them.

And you can't afford a $8,000 camera. I can't afford a $17,500 camera. I would buy a RED One immidiately when I had the money. I don't have the money. We are in the same boat. Only I might have a slighlty higher budget. Why should we be blaming each other? That's the problem on these boards. The people who can afford the $3,000, but not much more, are afraid that things are changed and they cannot afford it anymore. And therefore, they are flaming everyone that asks for a little bit more. The Scarlet won't change, don't be afraid, it will stay under $3,000.

Mike Bozulich
04-16-2008, 10:43 AM
Finally. I've been waiting for Jim's definitive response to the Scarlet madness that happened on day one. It was completely out of control. I know I personally took several hits on this forum for defending Scarlet from several RedUser "vets", who honestly should know better. Mature comments such as "f*cking noob" do nothing to advance the discussion, and only exacerbate the situation.

I'm thrilled Jim has put his foot down and said enough is enough. Now maybe we can get back to the discussion at hand - user input to help Red "tweak" Scarlet to make it the best it can be. NOT redo it. NOT add 3 more models to make everyone happy. NOT raise the price to nearly double to accommodate those who want to make Scarlet another Red One.

I am thrilled with Scarlet's features and price point. I look forward to hearing more detailed news on features and capabilities as Scarlet development continues. I hope to contribute positively to make it the best product it can be... all the while saving my pennies and counting down to launch date.

Bryan Arnold
04-16-2008, 11:03 AM
Agree with Boz. Keep the current specs and make it happen.

As posted in another thread: Different datarate options would be nice.

David Dennis
04-16-2008, 11:18 AM
Boz, as you probably know I agree with you 100%, and I've been sitting here wondering why emotions run so high and why this curious level of resentment.

I think I have it figured out.

I think RED is the first camera system in history that has felt truly personal. Jim Jannard didn't build it because he wanted to make money. He built it because he wanted a camera.

Think about that for a while. This guy is not building cameras for us, although he loves all of us when we're not throwing dishes at him. This guy is building cameras for HIMSELF.

But I think that means he breaks a few hearts because people almost think that he's building cameras for them, because you can see how passionate he is about building cameras. Here's someone building cameras for the joy of building cameras, and he didn't pick MY needs? SOB!

So he says, not "I need to build an interchangeable lens camera for $10,000 so the Little People can afford it", but "Hey, what camera would I like next?" And he says, well, something I can put in my pocket or hang around my neck and take anywhere.

I have a Canon XL1. Every once in a while when I bought it, I used the neck strap to hang it around my neck like a giant DSLR. It felt kinda like having a pet cat on a carrier. The rest of the world thought I looked like an idiot with too much money to burn.

He doesn't want to make us a new pet cat camera. Canon still makes a few of those. He wants to make something that we can carry and enjoy, and I'm amazed that people don't just understand that when you add interchangeable lenses, you add weight and immense design expense. So from the beginning it was clear that he would use a fixed lens, because that makes it easy to hold and carry: A "pocket" camera.

So degrading the camera to 2K and putting on interchangeable lenses would be of no interest to him, because he's an image quality fanatic. Image quality fanatics don't shrink their sensors for a camera which would have a very similar form factor to RED ONE. He'd keep his 4K sensor for that camera and it would wind up being a slight variation of the RED ONE, competing directly with it!

In short, the critics are focusing on the price point and trying to build a camera. Not how Jim operates. He fixates on the camera with a laser-like focus and then figures out how cheaply he can sell it and still make a few bucks to keep his plane up in the air.

I hope this little glimpse at how Jim works will help people understand, and resent less, why he doesn't produce a camera for their needs, even though there is obviously a genuine market for it. It would not serve Jim and so he would not put his heart and soul into it.

And when he puts his heart and soul into something, the results are truly magical.

Let's not try to make him into Sony, please? I appreciate Jim as he is. I'm sure he knows there are plenty of people who agree.

But then again, he did make "my" camera and its name is Scarlet.

D

WesVasher
04-16-2008, 11:24 AM
Great point Dennis. Red has emphasized the word pocket from the beginning and after reading your post it makes a little more sense why they chose that word.

John Caballero
04-16-2008, 12:09 PM
I would imagine that the designers, engineers and everybody involved in the Scarlet project know a bit about putting a camera together and that is why I am sure they won’t forget any buttons, focusing rings and other pertinent things necessary to operate it. Wouldn’t you think so?
All manufacturers listen to customer’s feedback of course, but all of them follow a process using focus groups, marketing surveys and mostly working with professionals in their market to test and help develop their products. That was what Red did with their first Red Ones and I am sure that is what they are planning for Scarlet. These beta testers are not the people going berserk screaming in this forums for all sorts of changes on a camera that as it stands now seems to be a magnificent and promising tool, especially for the amazing price. These are much respected individuals that really know what they are doing and are the leading professionals, not hysterical wannabes.
Scarlet promises to be an astounding tool developed and nurtured by a very intelligent and successful businessman that knows a thing or two about bringing fine products to market. He is the BOSS and he will undoubtedly listen to people that make sense and understand what is possible or not. But apparently there are not many of those around these days.

diskojerk
04-16-2008, 12:40 PM
"I believe that the moment is near when by a procedure of active paranoiac thought, it will be possible to systematize confusion and contribute to the total discrediting of the world of reality." Salvador Dali

diskojerk, we can go on like this for months.

http://www.wisdomquotes.com

"We all know your never going to dance."
2poprob

I will go on for months... And months... And months...

dhazelrig
04-16-2008, 12:45 PM
I would imagine that the designers, engineers and everybody involved in the Scarlet project know a bit about putting a camera together and that is why I am sure they won’t forget any buttons, focusing rings and other pertinent things necessary to operate it. Wouldn’t you think so?
All manufacturers listen to customer’s feedback of course, but all of them follow a process using focus groups, marketing surveys and mostly working with professionals in their market to test and help develop their products. That was what Red did with their first Red Ones and I am sure that is what they are planning for Scarlet. These beta testers are not the people going berserk screaming in this forums for all sorts of changes on a camera that as it stands now seems to be a magnificent and promising tool, especially for the amazing price. These are much respected individuals that really know what they are doing and are the leading professionals, not hysterical wannabes.
Scarlet promises to be an astounding tool developed and nurtured by a very intelligent and successful businessman that knows a thing or two about bringing fine products to market. He is the BOSS and he will undoubtedly listen to people that make sense and understand what is possible or not. But apparently there are not many of those around these days.

Didn't they forget to put a witness mark on the Red when it was first introduced?

Don't jump on me, I'm really only being funny and pointing out it never hurts to mention. Everybody forgets something now and again.

John Caballero
04-16-2008, 12:56 PM
I just hope they learned their lesson!!!

diskojerk
04-16-2008, 01:02 PM
I think the main thing people are neglecting to recognize is that the scarlet is still in the ground stages. After speaking with some people at the red booth, it was very clear to me what they had in mind when concieving and designing the camera. The people at Red seemed to very willing to listen to peoples ideas and comments about many different subjects. Some comments recieved a polite nod and others recieved a "good point, you should run that by so and so". Its not unreasonable to voice you're opinion about the features you would like to see on a camera during its design stage, but it is best to have an informed opinion that is well concieved if you wish to have your comment taken seriously.

dhazelrig
04-16-2008, 01:12 PM
I think the main thing people are neglecting to recognize is that the scarlet is still in the ground stages. After speaking with some people at the red booth, it was very clear to me what they had in mind when concieving and designing the camera. The people at Red seemed to very willing to listen to peoples ideas and comments about many different subjects. Some comments recieved a polite nod and others recieved a "good point, you should run that by so and so". Its not unreasonable to voice you're opinion about the features you would like to see on a camera during its design stage, but it is best to have an informed opinion that is well concieved if you wish to have your comment taken seriously.

Here, here!!

-D

dvazp
04-17-2008, 04:26 AM
You know what makes me sick? People who feel that they have to fawn over Jim, gushing with love and admiration, and defend Red as if it was their own daughter. We're talking about cameras for crying out loud!

And what type of defenses of the Scarlet do we get? "You shouldn't be thinking about your needs when talking about the Scarlet" "Just be grateful that they're making the Scarlet for you" "Without Jim you wouldn't have anything" "How dare you criticize a camera I want to buy?"

You dumb nuts, we know Red are groundbreaking. That's why we're here on the forum. Does that mean we don't have the right to make comments, suggestions to improve the camera, maybe even criticisms? We know Jim can choose to take our suggestions on board or ignore them. Then, when the camera is released, we can choose to buy the camera or not buy it. Why is it a problem? Why do people feel that they have to defend Jim and Red? It's his company, he's making money from you, and he's not paying you for kissing his ass. So can you just stop it? It's like some unhealthy sexual obsession.

I personally would like to see good manual controls on the lens barrel of the Scarlet and the possibility of lens adapters. I don't think any of these suggestions would push the price up but I could be wrong. Is it WRONG for me to say that? Is it breaking some type of moral code? Would it shatter your dreams if some critics' suggestions were taken on board?

Btw, before everyone gets excited and talks about buying 3, 4 or 5 Scarlets, it may be worth it to wait another year and see if they release something even more interesting. I was keeping an eye on the Red One till I found out about the price. Now I'm keeping an eye on the Scarlet till I found out about the specs. If the Scarlet isn't what I need I don't mind waiting another couple of years for something more suited to my needs rather than BUY BUY BUY based on a whim to want the latest gadget! Once again, is it a CRIME to say that?

I just feel if you want to make a good film you don't need that much equipment. What you need is a good story. I recently saw a film called 'This World of Ours' made by a 19-year old Japanese kid for something like $10000. It was an amazingly powerful film and he spent less on the whole film than most of us spend just on a camera and editing suite. It shows what type of vision we need. Btw, download the film and be amazed (http://peijafilm.nightfall.jp/). The director wants to give it as much free distribution as possible.

proaudio4
04-17-2008, 05:19 AM
Btw, before everyone gets excited and talks about buying 3, 4 or 5 Scarlets, it may be worth it to wait another year and see if they release something even more interesting.


If everyone thought that way, there would be no next release.

killfilm
04-17-2008, 05:39 AM
Sorry... dictatorship is winning big here.

We will listen very carefully, but this is not a "vote for options" program.

If you want that, start your own company.

Jim

hey Jim, those whiners dont represent the majority of the indies, if they choose to bitch then let them be, and let them buy that expensive HDV long GOP format at three times the price and five times less quality. The majority is happy with this camera and we trust your judgement as you know where the market is

Buck Forester
04-17-2008, 09:30 AM
You dumb nuts, we know Red are groundbreaking. That's why we're here on the forum. Does that mean we don't have the right to make comments, suggestions to improve the camera, maybe even criticisms?

Sure, but conversely, don't some of us have the same right to say there is already so much freaking incredible stuff packed into this $3,000 camera that how in the flyin' flippin' world can you complain about a 3K RAW camera that blows the specs off cameras well over twice and three times the price? Instead of being "wow, this is awesome", so many are, "missed the boat on this one"... "should've had blah blah blah and it would've been great". Pffft. Sorry, but pfffft. I think some of us have a right to defend the camera too because frankly it's a little machine with no peer within 100 yards of this price range. That's all.

donatello b
04-17-2008, 10:47 AM
"You know what makes me sick? People who feel that they have to fawn over Jim, gushing with love and admiration, and defend Red as if it was their own daughter. We're talking about cameras for crying out loud!"

i guess this all depends on where you are sitting ?
i see you joined on 4/15/2008 ...
many have been here for a much longer time ...
over the past 2 1/2 years many have met JJ & many on the Red team we know by name so for many it's more a community ..
so far everybody that i've meant at Red i would invite over my house along with many here on Reduser ...
i like to think that we are guest sitting around having Tea/Coffee discussing camera's etc in a normal tone of voice exchanging idea's ...
i recommend a little fresh air and some honey tea if you find many think of RED as more then just a camera ...

pablokorona
04-17-2008, 10:58 AM
careful, don't helm a revolution and think that people will be quiet.

Mike Bozulich
04-17-2008, 11:08 AM
i guess this all depends on where you are sitting ?
i see you joined on 4/15/2008 ...
many have been here for a much longer time ...
over the past 2 1/2 years many have met JJ & many on the Red team we know by name so for many it's more a community ..
so far everybody that i've meant at Red i would invite over my house along with many here on Reduser ...
i like to think that we are guest sitting around having Tea/Coffee discussing camera's etc in a normal tone of voice exchanging idea's ...
i recommend a little fresh air and some honey tea if you find many think of RED as more then just a camera ...

Nicely put, Donatello. It seems many on this board feel Red OWES them something. I look at Scarlet as a GIFT from Red. It's a beautiful piece of hardware I can't wait to get my hands on. I feel the Scarlet reveal was soured by so many people crapping all over it. A civil discussion of the pro's and con's of the design I'm sure is welcomed by Red. Screaming that Red are a bunch of fools for not including feature X is not. No wonder Jim decided to take a break from the boards. Who can blame him?

Sorry this post isn't very well written. My brain isn't working today :wacko:

J.R. Hud
04-17-2008, 11:11 AM
careful, don't helm a revolution and think that people will be quiet.


Well put.

Gian Paolo Vallati
04-17-2008, 11:55 AM
hey Jim, those whiners dont represent the majority of the indies, if they choose to bitch then let them be, and let them buy that expensive HDV long GOP format at three times the price and five times less quality

LOL. I agree!

CK Olsen
04-17-2008, 02:33 PM
Here's the thing.

Red is making a product that they strongly believe in.

If you also strongly believe in it, then you'll probably go on to buy it.

If you don't, then you probably shouldn't.

I'm just sayin'...

Zak Forsman
04-17-2008, 03:36 PM
Nicely put, Donatello. It seems many on this board feel Red OWES them something. I look at Scarlet as a GIFT from Red.

Both of those sentiments are absurd. It is neither "owed" nor a "gift". It's an inexpensive little f*cking camera that has as many groundbreaking advantages as it has limitations. it doesn't require you to be spiteful or grateful, just a paying customer. all this noise with people "picking a side" serves little to no purpose as far as i can tell. the posts that are overly critical with unrealistic expectations are just as useless as those from the kool-aid drinking indoctrinated. neither has the effect of pushing things forward toward any kind of meaningful conclusion.

am i wrong?

Zach Nelson
04-17-2008, 03:40 PM
funny

Zak Forsman
04-17-2008, 03:46 PM
haha! what, like a clown? I amuse you? :biggrin:

dvazp
04-17-2008, 05:15 PM
Both of those sentiments are absurd. It is neither "owed" nor a "gift". It's an inexpensive little f*cking camera that has as many groundbreaking advantages as it has limitations. it doesn't require you to be spiteful or grateful, just a paying customer. all this noise with people "picking a side" serves little to no purpose as far as i can tell. the posts that are overly critical with unrealistic expectations are just as useless as those from the kool-aid drinking indoctrinated. neither has the effect of pushing things forward toward any kind of meaningful conclusion.

am i wrong?

No, you are perfectly right. But I have to say that the people defending Red seem a lot more intolerant than people making wish lists. It's like if you say (politely) that you would like to see some modifications to the Scarlet people are like "Jim, don't listen to these people bitching". How is that bitching? I'm sure that if Red decided to make the modifications the defenders have been scoffing at (the main one seems to be interchangeable lens) they wouldn't turn round and say "Jim, you screwed up!" They'd be as happy as those making the requests.

Having read the discussions I've read some good responses to the issue of interchangeable lens and in the end I also agree that it's not a big deal. But responses like "Stop bitching, 3k for 3k is amazing" is utterly pointless. That's the real bitching.

And btw, I may have only joined a couple of days ago but I first started reading this forum when orders for the Red One were still being made. I couldn't afford the Red One and hadn't spent much time working in the industry and didn't have anything to say, that's why I didn't join. But I still downloaded some of the first Red footage that was put up on the net (although I don't think it was at this forum).

Already then I noticed that many people on this forum were acting more like cheerleaders than dispassioned professionals. But to each his own.

Gabriel Winebrenner
04-17-2008, 06:06 PM
No, you are perfectly right. But I have to say that the people defending Red seem a lot more intolerant than people making wish lists. It's like if you say (politely) that you would like to see some modifications to the Scarlet people are like "Jim, don't listen to these people bitching". How is that bitching? I'm sure that if Red decided to make the modifications the defenders have been scoffing at (the main one seems to be interchangeable lens) they wouldn't turn round and say "Jim, you screwed up!" They'd be as happy as those making the requests.

Having read the discussions I've read some good responses to the issue of interchangeable lens and in the end I also agree that it's not a big deal. But responses like "Stop bitching, 3k for 3k is amazing" is utterly pointless. That's the real bitching.

And btw, I may have only joined a couple of days ago but I first started reading this forum when orders for the Red One were still being made. I couldn't afford the Red One and hadn't spent much time working in the industry and didn't have anything to say, that's why I didn't join. But I still downloaded some of the first Red footage that was put up on the net (although I don't think it was at this forum).

Already then I noticed that many people on this forum were acting more like cheerleaders than dispassioned professionals. But to each his own.

I totally agree. These folks started bantering with me, as well as a few others, was it yesterday..... or the day before? Anyways, it soon became exhausting, so I stopped replying back to them. I have at last conceded that I was going a little overboard about absolutely needing an interchangeable lens, since I think never-the-less, if you were to put at least more than 7 grand more in adapters, ect..., it will be still great as it beats anything out there. I was wrong to think that this was an upscaled prosumer offering. But at least what I was saying was saying something. A lot of these guys aren't saying jack except for kissing ass and absolutely having nothing much intelligent to say about the project. It's like the Scarlet is a status symbol to them, at least that's what I get from the jibber jabble being demonstrated. Even a few of the culprits user pics, I've grown annoyed, just looking at... like viewing something hideous like a piece of fresh dog poop you just accidently stepped on.

Mike Bozulich
04-17-2008, 06:14 PM
Both of those sentiments are absurd. It is neither "owed" nor a "gift". It's an inexpensive little f*cking camera that has as many groundbreaking advantages as it has limitations. it doesn't require you to be spiteful or grateful, just a paying customer. all this noise with people "picking a side" serves little to no purpose as far as i can tell. the posts that are overly critical with unrealistic expectations are just as useless as those from the kool-aid drinking indoctrinated. neither has the effect of pushing things forward toward any kind of meaningful conclusion.

am i wrong?

My opinion and views are my own and are every bit as valid as yours. If you want to look at Scarlet as "inexpensive little f*cking camera" so be it. I look at is as a gift to filmmakers who want to achieve a great look on limited budget. I think it is a cool piece of gear. It didn't have to be designed, it didn't have to be priced so low, but I believe that was for those of us who can't afford a Red One. To that end I consider such a design a 'gift' to those of use who are not so financially well off. It's not drinking kool-aid, it's just a different way of looking at it.

Stuart English
04-17-2008, 06:17 PM
Didn't they forget to put a witness mark on the Red when it was first introduced?

Don't jump on me, I'm really only being funny and pointing out it never hurts to mention. Everybody forgets something now and again.

Fair comment - yes we did forget that. Of course we welcome comments, but those do kind of fall into two groups - "are you going to have X or Y, or it would nice if we could add this" i.e refining the concept - that's valid.

Or - "this is stupid" "they can't possibly understand that a camera can't be sold without ... "

Lets keep the discussion to the former? The direction of the camera is set, it is an integrated zoom lens, period.

Gabriel Winebrenner
04-17-2008, 06:31 PM
My opinion and views are my own and are every bit as valid as yours. If you want to look at Scarlet as "inexpensive little f*cking camera" so be it. I look at is as a gift to filmmakers who want to achieve a great look on limited budget. I think it is a cool piece of gear. It didn't have to be designed, it didn't have to be priced so low, but I believe that was for those of us who can't afford a Red One. To that end I consider such a design a 'gift' to those of use who are not so financially well off. It's not drinking kool-aid, it's just a different way of looking at it.

Did you miss his point entirely. He wasn't calling the camera a piece of shit. He agrees that it will achieve a great look. He also knows there are limitations to this camera when compared to a fully equipped Red One. The Red Team knows this. Everyone knows this. Every post that I read from you among others only says, "this is a gift." I agree. I just don't see the point in my sixty some posts to say the same thing: "this is a gift." It gets redundant. I'm gonna start calling names in this fashion since common sense isn't winning here, and I want to hear some facts and not as many.....let me stop there. I'll be like a REDUSER's Boba Fett if I have to.

Zak Forsman
04-17-2008, 06:36 PM
My opinion and views are my own and are every bit as valid as yours. If you want to look at Scarlet as "inexpensive little f*cking camera" so be it. I look at is as a gift to filmmakers who want to achieve a great look on limited budget. I think it is a cool piece of gear. It didn't have to be designed, it didn't have to be priced so low, but I believe that was for those of us who can't afford a Red One. To that end I consider such a design a 'gift' to those of use who are not so financially well off. It's not drinking kool-aid, it's just a different way of looking at it.

haha! i have such a foul mouth. please excuse me.

a "gift" carries the connotation that the giver is making some kind of sacrifice, in other words, not expecting a return. and that is the only reason your assertion strikes me as hyperbole, no different than the detractors dwelling on the other end of the spectrum. my post was just an attempt to illustrate that the truth lies somewhere in between. it is neither gift nor owed to anyone. it just is.

as for my own stance, I have very high hopes for Scarlet. I've been waiting for "the camera that John Cassavetes would have used" if he were still alive today. And I think this is it. i'm so excited I'm starting my own online independent community resource for its users -- filmmakers and soccer moms alike. but mostly film makers.

Mike Bozulich
04-17-2008, 06:38 PM
Did you miss his point entirely. He wasn't calling the camera a piece of shit. He agrees that it will achieve a great look. He also knows there are limitations to this camera when compared to a fully equipped Red One. The Red Team knows this. Everyone knows this. Every post that I read from you among others only says, "this is a gift." I agree. I just don't see the point in my sixty some posts to say the same thing: "this is a gift." It gets redundant. I'm gonna start calling names in this fashion since common sense isn't winning here, and I want to hear some facts and not as many.....let me stop there. I'll be like a REDUSER's Boba Fett if I have to.

Hmm... where exactly in my post did I say he called Scarlet a piece of shit? I literally quoted what he said it was. In fact, I even agree with it. It IS and inexpensive little camera. I'm just saying that because I view it as a gift, doesn't make me wrong. It's just my point of view. And sorry if I've repeated this in multiple threads, but there were literally dozens of threads flying fast and furious on Scarlet day. I will try to refrain from using the 'gift' analogy in the future since it apparently agitates some people.

Gabriel Winebrenner
04-17-2008, 06:45 PM
Hmm... where exactly in my post did I say he called Scarlet a piece of shit? I literally quoted what he said it was. In fact, I even agree with it. It IS and inexpensive little camera. I'm just saying that because I view it as a gift, doesn't make me wrong. It's just my point of view. And sorry if I've repeated this in multiple threads, but there were literally dozens of threads flying fast and furious on Scarlet day. I will try to refrain from using the 'gift' analogy in the future since it apparently agitates some people.

thank you

Brian Murphy
04-18-2008, 07:07 AM
Jim,
For those of us who will "vote" with the wallets and buy your product. What is the best case and worst case time line to delivery of Scarlet?
Like many folks my needs will be more than met with what has been announced for Scarlet. I don't really want to buy an interim HD camera and would appreciate any info.
Thanks

John Caballero
04-18-2008, 10:02 AM
Jim took a sabbatical from these forums, he announced couple of days ago. We all have to wait for answers when they become officially available from Team Red.

Brian Murphy
04-18-2008, 10:18 AM
Thank I will join the line and wait.
Cheers

diskojerk
04-18-2008, 09:56 PM
opinions are like assholes, everybody has one...

John Caballero
04-19-2008, 12:27 AM
lol! :biggrin: :biggrin: