Democracy or Benevolent Dictatorship... [Archive]

Häakon

04-15-2008, 11:40 PM

Just as an aside... I went and watched the videos of the new P2 Varicam models that Panasonic is offering; you either spend $40,000 to get a 2/3", 720p (!) model that does 1-60p or fork over $60,000 to get a 2/3", 1080p camera that tops out at 30p! If you want a 35mm sensor, Sony's F35 will only set you back $250K. Suddenly Epic's pricepoint is starting to look pretty darn good.

All this stuff is expensive and most of us don't have $40K+ to be spending on cameras for ourselves, but RED is doing us a huge service by both pushing the technological envelope forward while keeping costs reasonable at the same time. Without them, we'd still be stuck with 4:2:0 cameras that pixel shift and compress like crazy and still cost more than our houses. Whatever complaints you have about RED, stop and think about the alternatives for a moment...

Zack CC

04-15-2008, 11:48 PM

"Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude.

Mr. Jannards sig seems particularly appropriate in lieu of these past few days.
Specs have been announced, however, I feel like if anything has been stressed, or rather, if I've learned anything about RED, its that THINGS WILL CHANGE. Ill put $20 down saying that the specs shown at NAB will resemble, but will not exactly match the specs of the final camera. Have we all gone temporarily insane and forgotten this? AND, after release, the cameras will also continue to improve.

No lies are here I think, only the truths of the moment. It's an important distinction.

Meanwhile, can we trust our dear Captain? He's proven hes no idiot, built an incredible tool that everyone thought was impossible to build already, and we know hes got a mind for business... (anybody remember that he founded Oakely, and registers on the Forbes 400? Anyone, anyone?)

Not to mention the fact that a business that plays on these levels is rarely this transparent and connected.... Any of you get on the forums and complain to Canon recently, knowing that the CEO of the company had an 80% chance of reading it, and maybe a 40% chance of responding to a direct question?

At the end of the day, we do have the power... We either stick around and support, and we BUY THE CAMERAS, or we leave, and seek solutions elsewhere.

but clearly, i mean, with all the evidence of past performance tallied up, its STILL clear all of us are getting screwed right? clearly everyone at RED got high, and decided to run everything into the ground. OBVIOUSLY...
???
(that last bit is sarcasm, in case that wasn't clear.... don't want any speculation now...)

Take a deep breath, and maybe we can all try and figure out whats actually going on here, and what the strategy is behind it? (If you are displeased that is...personally I'd still shoot at least once on Scarlet if it turned out to be a pinhole camera made of cardboard and prescription sunglass lenses) I firmly want to believe there is a method to this madness... regardless of whether there is or not.

oh, and as for the latter part of his sig... i wonder who's still going to be able to get a camera after all of these tantrums.... maybe a wall of shame is a bit extreme, but I'd die laughing if they were keeping a list at the end of the day... ;-)

This is my two cents... at the end of the day, someone will be wrong... hope its not me!

Sanjin Jukic

04-15-2008, 11:49 PM

Sorry... dictatorship is winning big here.

We will listen very carefully, but this is not a "vote for options" program.

If you want that, start your own company.

Jim

Jim totally agree.

Henk van den Doel

04-15-2008, 11:50 PM

Very true Haakon.

I am seriously impressed with all new announcements again, and it is good to see that RED keeps pushing forward in a pace like this. The easy thing would be to stick with RED One, but what is coming now...wow...especially REDRAY.
I think you guys have done an amazing job. Hats off.

Alexander Christ

04-16-2008, 12:43 AM

Democracy in business or art usually results in middlingness.

The new products are awesome, especially RED RAY. RED Digital Cinema is giving opportunities to start business in new manners. The future is bright!

Jason Ramsey

04-16-2008, 01:32 AM

Run it, man. It's yours. Run it.

Later,
Jason

Sanjin Jukic

04-16-2008, 01:36 AM

Sorry... dictatorship is winning big here.

We will listen very carefully, but this is not a "vote for options" program.

If you want that, start your own company.

Jim

Jim,

I totally agree again.

Dylan Reeve

04-16-2008, 01:59 AM

If you want that, start your own company.

I did... It won't be a democracy either.

RED was so responsive with the RED One that perhaps some people have come to expect a little too much.

PaulClements

04-16-2008, 02:20 AM

Strange Jim, to quote Ted at NAB 2008 "We like the idea of being democratic"

:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkoHTjx8siM&NR=1 - 4.04 minutes in

Paul

Simon Valderrama

04-16-2008, 02:45 AM

Hep, had alot to work so i was just able to read RED announcements on official website, seems i kind of missed a very hot discussion.
Wen i first read about EPIC etc. i was quite upset (kinf of "f@&k EPIC"), but more i thought about it more i understood the idea.
After thinking alot about the whole announcements i was finally very happy and excited about them.
Guess that really innovative products and marketing take us by surprise and we do not get what we expect, because well, otherwise it wouldn't be a real innovation.
As a consequence i think that a Benevolent Dictatorship is needed, you can't innovate if you're giving the expected.
On the other hand, i think this will work until RED will continue to really listen to us (and that's what they're actually doing) ... so, go on, our enlightened dictator! :)

... Could you please invade Italy Jim? we just had elections and we're now ruled by an Un-lightnened dictator, the boy became rich by just tax fraud, money laundry and agreements with mafia. :waaa:

oedipus

04-16-2008, 03:40 AM

Neither democracy nor dictatorship are appropriate in this context. A company will most likely engage in activities that could be construed as either of these but their first obligation is to provide something that is needed, be it a product or service (or else get the marketing guys to persude people that they need what you're selling). Under promise, over deliver - gets 'em every time.

Daniel Reichenbach

04-16-2008, 04:11 AM

When I explain to others the philosophy of RED, then I say: RED is not this much a camera but a computer (a sexy one ok) and computers get old very fast. It is a smart consequence to build a new camera with all the knowledge from REDone (there is a 1, remember...) and let belivers be part of this improvements. REDs philosophy was from the very first day to give a low priced tool to anybody, who wanted to show their talents. I got an eye on ARRIS "new" D-21 and asked the guy at the booth: how much? 120'000$ (just the body) and the best thing is: you even can't buy this overpriced beast (except in countries like russia, hehehe, this were his words), you have to rent it. You know why? Because ARRI won't upset the rental companies. I mean, this is ridiculous, even the guy at the booth was frustated to tell me this.

Now RED announced Scarlet and EPIC, you will get them quiet for nothing they will do a great job in their segments. I'm convinced. Don't understand, why redusers wanna make out of scarlet a highend filmcamera just for 3K$. Thats b...sh.. Would be the same if I'd like to buy an Austin Martin for the price of a Deux Chevaux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën_2CV) hehehe. And by the way, both cars brings you down the road... It's up to you

Gunleik Groven

04-16-2008, 04:24 AM

Strange Jim, to quote Ted at NAB 2008 "We like the idea of being democratic"

:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkoHTjx8siM&NR=1 - 4.04 minutes in

Paul

Jim hired Ted... Who's the boss :)

WesVasher

04-16-2008, 04:48 AM

If anyone should be admitted to an asylum, it's Jim. Scarlet is insane, time to take your medz Jim.

Joe D'Arcy

04-16-2008, 05:24 AM

I love dictatorships but only when I'm in charge. In this case I make an exception, I am very impressed with your leadership. This is the only democratic dictatorship that I know of.

I am so impressed with what you (Jim and the Red team) have delivered in the last few days. In your case, 'delivered' is synonymous with 'promised' based on your brief history and rock solid reputation. Thank you and I look forward to ongoing business with you.

christopherk

04-16-2008, 05:32 AM

I'm terribly excited about the products you've introduced. I'm a little confused about specifics, but I'm sure there will be more of those leaking out between now and "early 2009".

But we're on a message board for pete's sake! There are a good number of posters with good intentions. And then there are attention whores. By-and-large the ratio of posters with good intentions to the attention whores is much better here than your typical run-of-the-mill message board. You're blowing things up in Vegas right now. If you HAVE to come back and read here... take the negative posts for what they're worth... a few bits of data on the interwebs.

Axel Mertes

04-16-2008, 05:33 AM

Strange Jim, to quote Ted at NAB 2008 "We like the idea of being democratic"

:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkoHTjx8siM&NR=1 - 4.04 minutes in

Paul

Paul, you misunderstood something here:

Ted said they "like to be democratic", but as Jim clearly pointed out he has the final autocratic or dictatoric decision - that is no conflict in saying!

I "like to be Superman", but I am not. Guess I am clear...

Back in school our teacher asked us "where would you like to make an annual trip to?" Dozens of wishes came up. Then he said "Regardless what you say, I decided we make a bicycle tour to france, as I do every year." Jim just reminded me of that.

I agree with Jim's point, because its the only way to run a business. It has NOTHING to do with poeples wishes nor requests. I point out my wishes too, and I was heard a couple of times (assuming others mentioned the same, or I was just convincing). But I always have to expect certain wishes to not come true. Thats life...

If somebody want to have a product custom made, perfect fit, for his personal taste - then there is only the option of sending out an appropriate order for that. But expect the appropriate bill too...

A lot of extremely rich people are used to having "customized" stuff (cars, boats, villas, clothes, furniture, ...). THEY can afford to. Most of us can't.

Jim can, probably. So he is the one who pays the bill. Its his simple right to decide. Its our honour that he sometimes asks us for our point of view, listens to our wishes. If he agrees on our wishes, they can easier become true. If not, they may still get added to a "To Do" list, but surely not top priority.

What makes RED different from many other companies is the reason for what it is driven IMHO. Other companies run to make a turnover and therefor satisfy customers to a certain degree, but just enough, so they return back on the next iteration of products. RED ONE started in first place as Jim's own attempt to get the "Custom" camera that was simply not available. He choose a way to get there by making it a more public approach, having wittnessed the clear demand out there. Making it a business is obvious. Jim based RED on making HIS visions come true. Now new visions got added, and Jim is adding new products as they simply make sense in context. He found the RED team can do, so it must be done. And his comments on e.g. Sony make him have a goal. You need a goal in life. I guess having "enough" money is not necessarily one of the goals on Jims list anymore... (I guess, I guess...)

Imagine what would have happend if Jim would have made the camera just for himself, one piece of it, running as he wants it? He may have had that option, I think so. We all would still be trying to convince the whole rest of the vendors of doing something like this, with nearly no success... We would still be stuck with making the Drake, and then SI and then NoX etc. work as we want (which was the origin of all of it, way back, at the alternative imaging thread on DVinfo...)

Axel

martinnoweck

04-16-2008, 05:43 AM

democracy = terror of the masses (Aristoteles)

Yaque Silva-Doyle

04-16-2008, 06:02 AM

Jim, you've made a horrible mistake. Your prices are all missing Zeroes. Some of them may even be missing two zeroes.
Now you're surrounded by thousands of retarded video nerds who think that they can get a cinema camera for a tenth our a hundredth of the price that it should be. Then they could all be real cinematographers. "But wait they must all complain incessantly"

Hey but you had me from the Oakley days at "dedicated to purpose beyound reason" and that is why I bought a Red. Oh and also I figured it was best to get one before some one noticed that they should be 175000 not 17000.
:-)

PaulClements

04-16-2008, 06:13 AM

Paul, you misunderstood something here:

I was just having a laugh! (Didn't the smiley give that away! :)) I literally read the thread and then watched the video and thought the contradiction was amusing, I figured the thread was suppose to be relatively light hearted anyway... Am I wrong?

Paul

Radoslav Karapetkov

04-16-2008, 06:14 AM

I understand you, master Jim.

And I wouldn't call that dictatorship, it's just putting things into order. Democracy means freedom but also - order.

Excessive freedom can be a bad thing too, because human beings aren't perfect enough for perfect freedom.

Unfortunately.

I recently spoke with a friend of mine, who's a girl-producer. We talked about a filmmaking workshop that she organized and that had gone totally wrong.

I asked her: "What happened?".

And she replied: "Too much democracy"....

She's pretty too. :)

Anyway, one shouldn't go to the other extreme either - imprisoning unhappy RED customers in concentration camps and such. :)

Finding the "golden middle" is always the hardest thing to do in every field, but I believe you'll make it.

Anyway, just give us bloody 16mm glass on the Scarlet, wil`ya? :)

That's the only real thing to ask.

All else is perfect...

Radoslav Karapetkov

04-16-2008, 06:23 AM

... Could you please invade Italy Jim? we just had elections and we're now ruled by an Un-lightnened dictator, the boy became rich by just tax fraud, money laundry and agreements with mafia. :waaa:

Yeah.

And, please add Bulgaria to the invasion shortlist. Our government actually IS the mafia :angry03:.

I'm here, I can be your guide :).

Lol.

Bob England

04-16-2008, 06:42 AM

Hopefully Jim hasn't been too affected by some of the posts here in the past few days. I'd hate to see him get discouraged and sell off RED to some large competitor.

Christian Edwards

04-16-2008, 06:50 AM

You do have some power... we are listening. But this has gotten out of control the past two days. The inmates will not run the asylum... sorry.

Jim

"RED ASYLUM"....i like it! its got a nice ring to it

Axel Mertes

04-16-2008, 06:52 AM

Democracy means masses elect their leader(s). Jim was not elected as to my knowledge :). He simply IS the leader of RED, by some nature principles (paying the bills, for instance...). Thats more the "King" based system, sometimes badly called the dictatorship. But quite close :).

Axel

oldphart

04-16-2008, 06:53 AM

Sorry... dictatorship is winning big here.

We will listen very carefully, but this is not a "vote for options" program.

If you want that, start your own company.

Jim

I would rather call it "enlightened sovereign monarchy" - the best government we ever had (the few times the monarch was actually enlightened).

Brent J. Craig

04-16-2008, 06:53 AM

I understand that we have to let Red run its business the way Jim wants to. They certainly seem to have done an OK job so far. :)

I think many of us are simply hoping that the designs are not carved in stone at this point so we can add our input to avoid silly things like proprietary (and rare) connectors and camera menu displays on the wrong side.

Tom Lowe

04-16-2008, 06:56 AM

What's this about, Jim? Scarlet? Epic?

David Dennis

04-16-2008, 07:03 AM

Even in a Democracy, you are only occasionally required to face the voters.

Jim faces the voters every day, in the war against Canon and Sony. By giving him your money, you are effectively voting for him as Red Leader.

I think most of us, despite the gripes, would have voted for Jim as RED Leader if we'd had a chance to!

D

Radoslav Karapetkov

04-16-2008, 07:07 AM

What's this about, Jim? Scarlet? Epic?

He has also put it in the Scarlet subforum, so I guess it's probably about Scarlet.

sparkhope

04-16-2008, 07:18 AM

i think with the 3 models everybody should be able to fit their needs...and budgets...

the true revolution of yesterday was not scarlet.......its redray....this little star wars toy will really change everything.

EXACTLY!

Redray is the heart of the revolution. Why make films????? So that they can be seen. REDray can provide delivery. The 3 camera's are well suited for three different segments of the marketplace. Unlike the competition RED has tied them together with 1 uniform codec. So the young shooter that can afford Scarlet will be crafting his skill on the same codec as the EPIC. It's absolutely Brilliant!!

Let's not forget....most films, the far far majority are projected at less then 2k. Scarlet gives 3k. And REDRAY will allow every film screen to provide a delivery mechanism for all Redcode encoded projects! I'm thrilled with what I saw at NAB; it cements RED in the marketplace. They're going to deliver a sub $1000 universal player! It decodes and scales in realtime....WOW!

oh...and that's not taking into account their new glass....one word...amazing. 2009 will be a truly disruptive year. The premium we see on glass today will be dramatically reduced.

Bob England

04-16-2008, 07:18 AM

The only democracy here is we get to vote with our money.
Not the same as the government where we vote them in, then they take our money (through taxes). :)

Luis Ismael

04-16-2008, 07:22 AM

I been following RED PROJECT since day one, whend it as called vapourware.
I been a silent reader of this forum since the begining.
I been a silent espectator of footage tests and the firsts "prime times" all over the world.
I went to Netherlands to IBC to watch it "in loco" and i was stunned.
Yesterday i wired the deposit for a Red One.

So i really understant Jim whend he want to be the "King of the Hill".
We all must help him make Red a better camera and some of us must stop complaint and bitching about some of the stuff that is still in development.
Even i get sick and tired of reading some "idiot stuff" in here. (i imaging Jim)
Glad that Red exists, Glad that Red is working... and hell... i´m glad that the camera as issues... because i´m glad to known that are a bunch of guys that are willing to make it work right... as proven!

To Jim & Red team: A great dream delivered a Fantastic camera. THANKS

... This was my FIRST post. :)

vovin

04-16-2008, 07:28 AM

Jim, we all respect you and love what you and your company has done - it is revolutionary. You are already far more open and "democratic" than most companies I have ever heard of. We trust you ;)

Jannard

04-16-2008, 07:29 AM

Strange Jim, to quote Ted at NAB 2008 "We like the idea of being democratic"

:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkoHTjx8siM&NR=1 - 4.04 minutes in

Paul

That was until the uprising... :-)

Jim

Roberto B

04-16-2008, 07:31 AM

Even i get sick and tired of reading some "idiot stuff" in here. (i imaging Jim)meu amigo.. who are "the idiots" here?..

who has brains?..

or those idiots kissing the ass of the man.. dreaming with his benevolent dictatorship?..

red i wanabe

04-16-2008, 07:33 AM

I can't wait to pledge my alligence to the new RED state Comrade JIM !

Down with Democracey!!!

dhazelrig

04-16-2008, 07:36 AM

Sorry... dictatorship is winning big here.

We will listen very carefully, but this is not a "vote for options" program.

If you want that, start your own company.

Jim

Mr. Jannard,

I certainly understand that you should have this sort of reaction. I've been following the boards since the Scarlet announcement, and it is a little annoying. However, it is to be expected. This is basic human nature and there is really nothing wrong with it. You gave people an open forum to discuss your work and your company. And as the leader of what some people might call a "movement", I would suggest that it might be more prudent to take the high road and not voice your frustrations with the plebs in such an open manner. Not from a business stand point, but from a personal one.

Yes, I realize that everyone else is voicing their opinion, why shouldn't you. I just suggest that in your position you rise above all of this. Bitch and complain to your fellow co-workers (I'm sure you guys at the office have had a few words over this Scarlet thing) but don't do it in front of the children.

Just a suggestion.

Thanks for listening...

-D

Radoslav Karapetkov

04-16-2008, 07:49 AM

I can't wait to pledge my alligence to the new RED state Comrade JIM !

Down with Democracey!!!

Aah, wait a minute! :)

Nick Wolf

04-16-2008, 07:57 AM

I noticed Teds new jacket ... Spiffy..."Its fun to shake things up" he says ...

Ted - Just wait untill the Soccer Moms get on board! ... An idea for next years attire - "Red-Togas" ... Zip up the tent and let the games begin!

The passion and enthusiasm generated by this incredible Team, its Leader, and their hard work to bring a Revolutionary Vision to us, The People, far exceeds all expectation above and beyond the wildest of speculations, and most importantly;

It over shadows all the negativity spewed upon it by misanthropic mumblers whos only joy is to piss on our parade.

DogDay

Radoslav Karapetkov

04-16-2008, 08:01 AM

I bet that a large % of the people, pissing Jim off are employees of other companies.

Gordon Prince

04-16-2008, 08:17 AM

Or maybe just customers?... upset with EPIC.

Luis Ismael

04-16-2008, 08:25 AM

meu amigo.. who are "the idiots" here?..

who has brains?..

or those idiots kissing the ass of the man.. dreaming with his benevolent dictatorship?..

I really don´t like kissing ass, but also don´t like idiots.
If you don´t like... the rules... play another game... simple as clear water.

But... i really don´t like waste time, so if you don´t known who "the idiots" are it´s your problem not mine.

Steve Sanacore

04-16-2008, 08:25 AM

Jim, I think you have spoiled everyone with RED's personal service. I can't think of any company, (especially a manufacturer) ever taking care of customers like yours is.

Thank you.

Vincent Rice

04-16-2008, 08:27 AM

Or maybe just customers?... upset with EPIC.

Why? Why be upset about another great product? Does the RED ONE work any less well?

These people are the idiots.

Roberto B

04-16-2008, 08:33 AM

I really don´t like kissing ass, but also don´t like idiots.
If you don´t like... the rules... play another game... simple as clear water.

But... i really don´t like waste time, so if you don´t known who "the idiots" are it´s your problem not mine.why shouldn't i know?.. because of asking?.. everybody worldwide can post on this forum.. and some ass kissers are too much stupid posters.. even when they pretend not to be ass kissers..

Warren Kommers

04-16-2008, 08:35 AM

I personally can sympathize with both sides. I think the development of a new camera is great. I really want full frame higher frame rates(more than 100fps! 300! cmon baby) and more DR is welcome. However I do think it perhaps was a bit early to play this card. You should have just announced it when it was ready further down the line. People would have shit themselves when you blind sided them and you could spare the boards of all the drama.

But who cares really. It's understandable why people who haven't even received their camera yet might be upset. Especially when the details are so vague right now. 40k is a bargain but I hope the camera does separates itself more from the RED one. 300fps. Shit I wish they made a ready to go 3d camera to be honest. That's the future IMHO. I just hope they aren't forced to dumb down the Red one to create that separation. ie - is 4k 60fps ever going to happen? Not looking good for perhaps a few reasons now. Who knows. Build 16? New DR? Too many questions at this point.

I'm also curious about the weight of the Epic. As the camera approaches the weight of a prime it becomes very difficult to balance in a handheld config. We already find that we have to put the drive and battery fairly far back to balance the Red One with a S4 prime on. Otherwise the EVF pushes itself into the 1st AC's access to the lens.

Caesar

04-16-2008, 08:36 AM

Why? Why be upset about another great product? Does the RED ONE work any less well?

These people are the idiots.The new Epic will be a competitor for any Red One camera.

Radoslav Karapetkov

04-16-2008, 08:38 AM

The new Epic will be a competitor for any Red One camera.

Ave, Caesar!

:)

Speaking of benevolent dictatorship.... Lol.

Andrew Hewlett

04-16-2008, 08:38 AM

I have a feeling that this is why companies like Sony become the way they are. Its easier to push products at people than open up discussion to everyone and their neighbor.

I'm personally fine with any approach as long as you deliver products that are soundly priced, technologically advanced and you allow the customers some communication. I can't interact with Steve Jobs or give my opinion about Apple products, but I still buy them.

I think Red just needs to approach this issue with a personal and business noise filter. Take from these boards and communication with customers whats useful, and ignore the rest. Of course Oakley didn't become what it is today without Jim and Co. already knowing that.

I am nothing but excited for the future! I plan on investing heavily in RED equipment (including the one One) and I plan on getting a good number of Scarlet cameras when they become available to do a few projects I have planned. Bravo Red! Keep fighting the good fight.

JCallahan

04-16-2008, 08:39 AM

As someone that is not even particularly interested in digital filmmaking, I don't see what all of the fuss is about. I think that the NAB announcements seem like well-rounded, thoughtful and competitive products that will serve specific purposes very well. I also think that Red is still a very young company, and that some of you are doing the equivalent of attacking the Apple II for not being the original 128k Macintosh. If you don't like it, wait it out or look elsewhere. Stay civil, voice your opinion and vote with your wallets. Ultimately, the market will decide if Scarlet/whatever is hit or miss, and no matter what, things will keep getting better.

Not that anyone needs to be told what to do, I just wanted to speak up because I have been getting stressed out about all of the hostility on these boards lately. Stay cool my babies.

Jim Stewart

04-16-2008, 08:39 AM

ie - is 4k 60fps ever going to happen? Not looking good.Ditto.

Siva Kollipara

04-16-2008, 08:51 AM

That was until the uprising... :-)

Jim

This is simply your mistake Jim,
Please refer to my little sarcastic post posted few months back,
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=119818&postcount=21
you have spoiled the kids too much.

Democracy is getting abused in many countries/places, they are assuming Democracy is a RIGHT, while it is a RESPONSIBILITY.

Luis Ismael

04-16-2008, 08:52 AM

why shouldn't i know?.. because of asking?.. everybody worldwide can post on this forum.. and some ass kissers are too much stupid posters.. even when they pretend not to be ass kissers..

Seems that you took "the idiots" label too much serious.
I´m not defending no one´s back... just a project that i believe in and that deserves everyones respect.
If you don´t... well... once again... it´s your problem.

ps - don´t mind about the ass kissers, if they like to kiss ass it´s... their problem not yours.

McDiver

04-16-2008, 09:17 AM

Like many who keep up with Red here, I don't say much. But the last few days have been shocking to me.

I cannot imagine how, in any way, the introduction of better cameras, should or could be characterized as a bad thing. It is, simply, unimaginable for us to complain about Red making progress. Actually, I think it reveals an amazing lack of imagination and a certain amount of "entitlement," that Red should spend the rest of its existance on its first and, evidently, last professional product.
I felt embarrassed when I read those comments . . . at a time Red is celebrating a new victory, we are enmeshed in gossip and mistrust?
How? Couldn't we wait for a few more details before engaging in outright insults?! We do appreciate fairness in our own lives, don't we? Stunning.

Red One was already a great accomplishment, and a steal. Nothing can change that. Nothing will.

BUT what did the whiners hope for? Let some other company build up steam and start to compete with Red? Was Red to rest on their laurels so quickly? When Red releases a dual-sensor/18-stop camera capable of 200 fps, at $100,000, are we to cry even louder? (I'm not saying they will - just trying to make a point).

Red, as a company, will have peaked, when it stops competing with its own products.

Is that what we should want? An end? A trophy? A camera that says "I was there when it happened . . . once?"
I cannot fathom the disgruntled . . . who have just been guaranteed that their Red One camera bodies will always have high value - regardless of obuse.
I cannot understand their mistrust when Jim has been so accommodating for so long.
I just . . . don't get it.

There are many things that have impressed me about Red, but you know what my personal favorite is? Jim takes this personally. And if he takes it personally, he's going to take this farther and further than anyone here imagines. Not because he may have said it . . . but because you can see it in his personality.
So what's the point of insulting him?

I can only conclude, that after 2 years of openness, there are many who still don't know who he is, as a person. And that's too bad . . .

I would expect more from those who pride themselves in bringing imagination to life.

Vincent Rice

04-16-2008, 09:48 AM

The new Epic will be a competitor for any Red One camera.

So RED are supposed to limit themselves and their development to make you feel all warm and cosy? Dear God, its a tool! Its what you do with it that counts.

This is madness.

Matt Sconce

04-16-2008, 09:55 AM

Red is amazing and if people are upset at technology advancement...go pick up a RED ONE...shoot with it.... I just did. Whoever is "Bummed" about the RED ONE, needs to wake up. Do you think just because the RED EPIC has better specs it makes the RED ONE in someway less? We are getting light years ahead of our money's worth with the RED ONE. Be thankful for this amazing tool and the openess of the company. Make money and then switch the RED ONE for an EPIC. It is a Win Win situation here people. Lets be a happy family instead of a spoiled one.

Simon Smith

04-16-2008, 09:58 AM

Of course, the Epic will be a serious competitor. The Red One will not be the company's high end anymore. Do you have any idea about what it does mean?

Don King

04-16-2008, 10:28 AM

Of course, the Epic will be a serious competitor. The Red One will not be the company's high end anymore. Do you have any idea about what it does mean?They will protect their high end. Count on it.

Justin A. Lincoln

04-16-2008, 10:39 AM

Caesar

04-16-2008, 10:45 AM

Remember: they are a company, not a "vote for options" program. They are here for making money. They will protect their high-end. What are you expecting? Charity?

Warren Kommers

04-16-2008, 10:45 AM

enough.....there were only like four people that freaked out.......what a soap opera.

Mark Mannschreck

04-16-2008, 10:53 AM

Hey Jim!

I think it should be a dictatorship for most people... but more of a democracy for me and the first 50.

That's my vote.

John Redfern

04-16-2008, 10:54 AM

What have I missed being offline for a couple of weeks!!!

All I can say is that Red One is a product. I saw it at IBC and I liked the style of the guys I met on the stand so I ordered one. I look forward to receiving it. I like what I see of Scarlet and will certainly order one of them.

Frankly, that's all there is to it.

I'm interested in this forum to hear real feedback of users experience with cameras they have actually got. I can't find that with all this noise.

J.

Cristina S

04-16-2008, 10:55 AM

Remember: they are a company, not a "vote for options" program. They are here for making money. They will protect their high-end. What are you expecting? Charity?They're already making money. Epic will increase the profit. As far as I know, 40,000 is higher than 17,500. :cold:

Roberto B

04-16-2008, 10:58 AM

and I liked the style of the guys I met on the stand so I ordered one.nominated for the post of the day category..

Brent J. Craig

04-16-2008, 11:00 AM

Of course, the Epic will be a serious competitor. The Red One will not be the company's high end anymore. Do you have any idea about what it does mean?

I think most people would agree that the Arricam ST is currently the top of the line camera in 35mm film production. Strangely, I find myself shooting most often on 435s and 535s. Are the commercial clients screaming because we are not using the 'top of the line' camera? Nope.

It is a good thing for manufacturers to have a premium product. The people who can afford it help pay for serious research and development that inevitably trickles down to all of their products.

If you owned a 2008 Ferrari would you be whining because they also make multi-million dollar Formula 1 cars?!? Where do you think automotive advances like seatbelts, fuel-injection and antilock brakes came from? They trickled down from the high-end, that's where!

AND, if you're that upset you can trade in your Red One for 100% credit towards an Epic!

Nothing to whine about here.

Roberto B

04-16-2008, 11:02 AM

Hey Jim!

I think it should be a dictatorship for most people... but more of a democracy for me and the first 50.

That's my vote.manny.. i've always liked you.. even when we disagreed in the past..

Roberto B

04-16-2008, 11:03 AM

I think most people would agree that the Arricam ST is currently the top of the line camera in 35mm film production. Strangely, I find myself shooting most often on 435s and 535s. Are the commercial clients screaming because we are not using the 'top of the line' camera? Nope.do not compare apples to oranges.. digital is not film.. on this, i am with the ###.com and ###.net guys..

Mark Mannschreck

04-16-2008, 11:04 AM

manny.. i've always liked you.. even when we disagreed in the past..

I just may unblock you if you keep that up...

Roberto B

04-16-2008, 11:07 AM

:love: est-ce arrivé près de chez vous?..

ehehehehe..

Andrew Benz

04-16-2008, 11:20 AM

Let me get this straight (and apologies because I haven't read through all the posts)...a company releases an affordable, highly-advanced digital cinema camera, then turns around and announces two more, in different tiers and has the nerve to offer current users a respectable and virtually unheard of upgrade path. How dare them.

Carl, it is not as glib or as simple as that... though you are very right and we (owners) very much appreciate and respect this avenue. It is a more complex issue where a lack of information is feeding the FUD.

Broad strokes in releasing information cuts both ways. Who are we to say how this "broad" information affects other current owners and their businesses. There are valid points to this "poly" issue.

So RED are supposed to limit themselves and their development to make you feel all warm and cosy? Dear God, its a tool! Its what you do with it that counts.

This is madness.

Are posts like these and those of "Lightbox" necessary. vinney will you have $90,000 of your personal dollars tied up in a Red system right now? No... so why the histrionics? The only thing that you and others here are quick to do is pull the trigger on those that are not in "lock step" with your train of thought. This attitude or way of thinking is certainly not "lock step" with the Red way of thinking.

Yes it is a tool... yes it is the story, yes it is the lighting, yes it is up to you in a pollyanna world--- Yes it is all these points of views and much more. BUT THERE ARE MANY MORE THINGS AT STAKE in very real financial terms-- what part of that do you not get and others who refer to us with differing opinions as "retards"? But Do you not understand how others-- who are in widely varying markets/skillsets might have different concerns than yours?

The little guys that went balls out (ie... bank loans to the gills) on "industry standard" gear just to rent are going to have their asses handed to them if they cannot make the transition (no I am not one of them-- I will not rent out but only for my work-- my people are happy). (It was a very risky endeavour to begin with but hey, I respect anyone buying this camera to do "their" work--- far be it from me to shout them down-- I choose to be supportive.)

I am saying this because we need to cut one another some slack... we do not know with certainty what others real world problems and situations are to become, so why do some suppose them to be "idiots" for having different views.

My point to all who feel it proper to jump down the throats of others... please don't. I like and respect many of you. We need to look out and learn from one another... not call each other "retards" or "ingrates".

In closing the podcast from fx/guide helped me out and closed some "gaps" for me.

Time to take my lumps....

Andrew Benz (#557)

ps- Right now, I understand how lucky and fortunate I am to have #557(on the way). I busted my ass to get it...

I look at this whole situation as an opportunity to "Learn and Earn" with my Red One. At the end of this period, I will graduate to an Epic if it fills my needs (right now it is just basically a "wishing box" like the Red One before it). So, we must all be flexible... plan on it.

Jim Stewart

04-16-2008, 11:29 AM

They will protect their high end. Count on it.
Any doubts out there? Not from you, obviously. There are people here without getting the basics from Samuelson's Economics first.

:sad:

sceneeast

04-16-2008, 01:01 PM

I just spend three day at NAB and visited the Red Booth everyday. This is my 40th year as a Producer/Director in the Film Business and I have never met a nicer bunch of guys who were totally honest and knew their stuff. Over these past three days I questioned them on the Red One, Scarlet and Epic and workflow, lens etc. Apple Color is now able to handle Red Raw. I am blown away on what I saw and heard.

I wish I had these cameras and software when I started out 40 years ago. The young filmmakers that are starting out today: Jim and his team have given them an unbelievable jump start to their careers.

So if they don’t understand the great gift you have given them than let me say thanks again Jim and the whole RED team.

PS: I hope we will be able to attach the Red Drive to the Scarlet.

Stephen Williams

04-16-2008, 02:46 PM

You do have some power... we are listening. But this has gotten out of control the past two days. The inmates will not run the asylum... sorry.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Unlike.....

Stephen

Joshua Provost

04-16-2008, 04:06 PM

Have you ever been on a film shoot that was run democratically? Or attended a film festival where the selections are made by committee? Boring! The films have no personality and reflect no personal vision. They can be made well, but be watered down and devoid of meaning.

I for one am glad there is a visionary taking the lead of around here. It doesn't devalue the talented people that are doing the work, it just guarantees interesting and dynamic results.

You'd have to imagine Sony and Panny develop their cameras by committee. Is that what you'd prefer?

Radoslav Karapetkov

04-16-2008, 04:13 PM

You can't make everyone happy...

But you can start with me. :)

16mm glass, please.

LOl.

Vincent Rice

04-16-2008, 04:16 PM

Carl, it is not as glib or as simple as that... though you are very right and we (owners) very much appreciate and respect this avenue. It is a more complex issue where a lack of information is feeding the FUD.

Broad strokes in releasing information cuts both ways. Who are we to say how this "broad" information affects other current owners and their businesses. There are valid points to this "poly" issue.

Are posts like these and those of "Lightbox" necessary. vinney will you have $90,000 of your personal dollars tied up in a Red system right now? No... so why the histrionics? The only thing that you and others here are quick to do is pull the trigger on those that are not in "lock step" with your train of thought. This attitude or way of thinking is certainly not "lock step" with the Red way of thinking.

Yes it is a tool... yes it is the story, yes it is the lighting, yes it is up to you in a pollyanna world--- Yes it is all these points of views and much more. BUT THERE ARE MANY MORE THINGS AT STAKE in very real financial terms-- what part of that do you not get and others who refer to us with differing opinions as "retards"? But Do you not understand how others-- who are in widely varying markets/skillsets might have different concerns than yours?

The little guys that went balls out (ie... bank loans to the gills) on "industry standard" gear just to rent are going to have their asses handed to them if they cannot make the transition (no I am not one of them-- I will not rent out but only for my work-- my people are happy). (It was a very risky endeavour to begin with but hey, I respect anyone buying this camera to do "their" work--- far be it from me to shout them down-- I choose to be supportive.)

I am saying this because we need to cut one another some slack... we do not know with certainty what others real world problems and situations are to become, so why do some suppose them to be "idiots" for having different views.

My point to all who feel it proper to jump down the throats of others... please don't. I like and respect many of you. We need to look out and learn from one another... not call each other "retards" or "ingrates".

In closing the podcast from fx/guide helped me out and closed some "gaps" for me.

Time to take my lumps....

Andrew Benz (#557)

ps- Right now, I understand how lucky and fortunate I am to have #557(on the way). I busted my ass to get it...

I look at this whole situation as an opportunity to "Learn and Earn" with my Red One. At the end of this period, I will graduate to an Epic if it fills my needs (right now it is just basically a "wishing box" like the Red One before it). So, we must all be flexible... plan on it.

But what the HELL is your point. How does the existence of EPIC (nine months away) make a RED ONE any less valuable? How does it make the pictures and stories produced with RED ONE any less valid? How does it make RED ONE rental income lower?

Listen I can't afford either one at the moment, Scarlet will be my baby, but I've been in high tech creative industries all my life and constant relentless progress is the only game in town.