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View Full Version : How does one handle "Scarlet" footage?



RicanJoe
04-16-2008, 08:56 AM
The main thing that sits in my mind about Scarlet is workflow. How powerful of a computer does one need to handle 3k? Does one need a special RED software in order to edit the footage? or would it be possible to editng in NLE's like Sony Vegas, Adobe After effects? If you don't know feel free to speculate, Thanks

Aiden Cornwell
04-16-2008, 09:17 AM
Same way things are done now with Red Code raw. However Apple anounced that color will now be able to handle r3d files now if only it could handle 3k resolution.

So tools will be

Red alert
Red Cine
Crimson (will be popular for Scarlet as most people who are using scarlet will not be buying Scratch)
FCP
Colour
Other 3 party apps not out yet I know there are a few more in the works

RicanJoe
04-16-2008, 09:21 AM
Same way things are done now with Red Code raw. However Apple anounced that color will now be able to handle r3d files now if only it could handle 3k resolution.

So tools will be

Red alert
Red Cine
Crimson (will be popular for Scarlet as most people who are using scarlet will not be buying Scratch)
FCP
Colour
Other 3 party apps not out yet I know there are a few more in the works

Well me being a noob, I would not know this. thank you

So does this mean I have to buy a Mac? If so thats just ridiculous.

Joseph Hutson
04-16-2008, 09:24 AM
So does this mean I have to buy a Mac? If so thats just ridiculous.

No that means you will be getting the workstation more and more professionals are moving to everyday.

Joseph Hutson
04-16-2008, 09:25 AM
Same way things are done now with Red Code raw. However Apple anounced that color will now be able to handle r3d files now if only it could handle 3k resolution.

So tools will be

Red alert
Red Cine
Crimson (will be popular for Scarlet as most people who are using scarlet will not be buying Scratch)
FCP
Colour
Other 3 party apps not out yet I know there are a few more in the works

Also, by then, we will also have the cc Red has made to make Red Ray.

David Dennis
04-16-2008, 09:29 AM
Rican, I hope you accept that you need to buy a new computer to do this, just because you'll need more power.

Apple is extremely price competitive with Dell and other PC-class companies in this market, and if you insist on running Windows there are a bunch of ways to do it.

So I don't think you should be too upset about feeling you need an Apple. They do make great machines; you might find yourself enjoying them despite yourself :-).

D

ColinSmith
04-16-2008, 09:37 AM
You don't have to buy a Mac, but workflows depend to some degree on the computer and applications you have. The 4k workflow forum has a lot on that ;)

Aiden Cornwell
04-16-2008, 09:45 AM
You do not need a mac you can work fine on a pc. More and more tools are coming out for the pc everyday.

Regardless of which way you want to go you will need some major hardware.

You can go with Adobe premier or Apple FCP.

You will want to have a fast machine and probably at some point get set up with a raid 5 system which are coming down in price.

Check out the 4k work flow and alternate work flow threads on the forum and start reading. There is lots to learn.

Also if you are interested FXPHD.com offers 2 red courses that will teach you lots about the camera and work flow.

Gene Crucean
04-16-2008, 09:59 AM
Apple is extremely price competitive with Dell and other PC-class companies in this market, and if you insist on running Windows there are a bunch of ways to do it.

Agreed. With their highend workstations they are (in my experience) cheaper than Dell, Boxx and HP and a few others. Just don't buy the memory from Apple. An added bonus to this is that you can also run windows or linux or whatever you want on the same machine. Dual or Triple boot it to your hearts content.

I understand this type of computer isn't cheap but if you are even considering a 3k camera, then you MUST consider a 3k post workflow. You can't have one without the other imo.

Seriously... go spec out a comparable non-Apple computer with close to the same specs and do a little price cross comparing. I think you'll see the light at the end of the tunnel.

To answer the original question however, workflow will be the same as the Red One.

Eugenia Loli-Queru
04-16-2008, 01:08 PM
I am sorry, but I don't want to move to a Mac. I like Sony Vegas just fine on a PC. If Red can't create tools/codecs that work on Windows via DirectShow or something (so most NLEs can take advantage of their codec), then the Scarlet is not something I can consider.

I have money to spend for a Mac if I wanted to. I just don't want to move to a Mac. I don't like FCP.

WesVasher
04-16-2008, 01:13 PM
I am sorry, but I don't want to move to a Mac. I like Sony Vegas just fine on a PC. If Red can't create tools/codecs that work on Windows via DirectShow or something (so most NLEs can take advantage of their codec), then the Scarlet is not something I can consider.

I have money to spend for a Mac if I wanted to. I just don't want to move to a Mac. I don't like FCP.

You should be able to transcode to another format that Vegas can edit. My four year old P4 can transcode R3D using Red cine... it's just pretty slow at it.

Aiden Cornwell
04-16-2008, 01:28 PM
I am sorry, but I don't want to move to a Mac. I like Sony Vegas just fine on a PC. If Red can't create tools/codecs that work on Windows via DirectShow or something (so most NLEs can take advantage of their codec), then the Scarlet is not something I can consider.

I have money to spend for a Mac if I wanted to. I just don't want to move to a Mac. I don't like FCP.

Can Vegas handle larger then 1080p footage though? I am not pushing Mac on you I know there is a ton of work going into the Adobe lineup with Premier and after effects.

The only thing you might have to do is invest in the adobe premier as I think more focus will be placed on industry standard tools.

John Caballero
04-16-2008, 01:31 PM
Folks with the P2 MXF files had similar workflow problems as RAW from Red is going thru at the moment. Now there are plug-ins as well as NLEs that fully integrate MXF.
I am sure Red will work closely with the software companies and by next year most of the issues of workflow will be resolved. As far as hardware, PCs work as well as Macs for video editing. Also speed and power are improved constantly. By next year we will see more powerful computers up to the task of working with the new digital video requirements and hopefully very affordable.

RicanJoe
04-16-2008, 02:25 PM
No that means you will be getting the workstation more and more professionals are moving to everyday.
They just seem so over priced and not worth what you get, anyway what would the specs on the mac have to be to handle this type of work? Could it be one of the mobile versions (mac books/mac book pros). I'm definitely NOT considering buying one but I would like to know.

John Caballero
04-16-2008, 02:33 PM
You have to follow the Red One info on the subject somewhere in the other Red forums to get and idea. Scarlet will use the same RAW workflow although it will also have RGB recording capabilities, maybe needing less computing power for that, I dunno.

RicanJoe
04-16-2008, 02:38 PM
You have to follow the Red One info on the subject somewhere in the other Red forums to get and idea. Scarlet will use the same RAW workflow although it will also have RGB recording capabilities, maybe needing less computing power for that, I dunno.
Ok, Ill check that out in a bit. Thanks

Joseph Hutson
04-16-2008, 03:36 PM
They just seem so over priced and not worth what you get, anyway what would the specs on the mac have to be to handle this type of work? Could it be one of the mobile versions (mac books/mac book pros). I'm definitely NOT considering buying one but I would like to know.

I use a MacBook Pro 17" with a 2.16 GhZ Intel Duo processor, 2 GB Ram, 120 GB HD. I use a 1TB MyBook Pro, and I can handle 1080i perfectly fine.

I will have to go to FCS3 for the Scarlet, but will not be using a different computer.

I LOVE macs, and would say. The price might be more than a PC, but as they say..."You get what you pay for."

combatentropy
04-16-2008, 08:21 PM
When will they have a workflow for Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/)? ;)

Seriously, though, Red, for software development you might check out AIR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR) -- write for PC, Mac, and Linux all at once.

John Caballero
04-16-2008, 09:17 PM
What some people may not know is that when you open up a PC and Mac their guts are basically identical. Motherboard, processors, ram, video cards, hard drives Cd and DVD drives, etc, etc, etc, etc. Those items inside both of them might even come from the same factory. The same goes within the PC brands themselves. They all use the same technology inside no matter which brand name.
Since about 1998 I started putting together my own computers and I can tell you that to me it makes all the difference in the world. I can upgrade them as I wish, fix them if something goes wrong and get a great sense of achievement when I see them doing what they are supposed to do, be it word processing, photo work or video editing. I get my parts from the computer fairs at York College in Jamaica, Queens or the Ramada Inn one at JFK. I can get the latest there at less cost than anywhere else. Creating my own computers, (I have four at the moment), and taking care of them is an exciting extension of the creative satisfaction I get from the professional photography and video work I do.

Stephen Gentle
04-17-2008, 01:00 AM
When will they have a workflow for Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/)? ;)

Seriously, though, Red, for software development you might check out AIR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR) -- write for PC, Mac, and Linux all at once.

What we need first is a good mid range NLE like Premiere or something (I'm sorry to say that Autodesk Smoke is a little out of my price range). Until something like that comes out, it looks like this computer is mainly going to be just transcoding my REDCODE files and dumping them on a network hard drive or RAID.

As for AIR, that would not be an ideal solution at all - you could not get anywhere near the performance you need. Air is basically a wrapper for Flash that lets you have a little more control (file and database access). There are much better ways of writing cross platform software.

Fergus Anderson
04-17-2008, 04:21 AM
I am also a Vegas user and ideally would want to stick with it (ideally the next big upgrade will increase resolution).

I think its a shame that RED are so Apple biased.

Pietro Impagliazzo
04-17-2008, 07:08 AM
What some people may not know is that when you open up a PC and Mac their guts are basically identical. Motherboard, processors, ram, video cards, hard drives Cd and DVD drives, etc, etc, etc, etc. Those items inside both of them might even come from the same factory. The same goes within the PC brands themselves. They all use the same technology inside no matter which brand name.
Since about 1998 I started putting together my own computers and I can tell you that to me it makes all the difference in the world. I can upgrade them as I wish, fix them if something goes wrong and get a great sense of achievement when I see them doing what they are supposed to do, be it word processing, photo work or video editing. I get my parts from the computer fairs at York College in Jamaica, Queens or the Ramada Inn one at JFK. I can get the latest there at less cost than anywhere else. Creating my own computers, (I have four at the moment), and taking care of them is an exciting extension of the creative satisfaction I get from the professional photography and video work I do.

That's the good thing about PCs.

You can put together a fairly cheap PC with a good RAID for much less than a Mac.

I'm not a windows fan, I'm a PC fan.
I just wonder when Apple is going to release a Mac OS for PC.

:whistling:

Joseph Hutson
04-17-2008, 11:15 AM
I am also a Vegas user and ideally would want to stick with it (ideally the next big upgrade will increase resolution).

I think its a shame that RED are so Apple biased.

I don't. THANKS RED!!!

Joseph Hutson
04-17-2008, 11:16 AM
That's the good thing about PCs.

I just wonder when Apple is going to release a Mac OS for PC.

:whistling:

Why would they?
The loyal Mac Lovers will pay anything for their own computer.

Ethan Cooper
04-17-2008, 11:44 AM
If anyone watched the FreshDV interview with Ted here is what was said about Scarlet workflow:

FreshDV Guy - Will this be a raw workflow similar to Red, you'll go through RedCine, same type workflow...

Ted - Different tools, we'll develop different tools and uh different ways to work, but they're all in the same vein (vane?) of what we're doing now.

I bet they simplify Scarlet's software to make it more idiot proof. This is a $3,000 camera that many people will have access to and therefore they need to make the workflow a bit easier than that of the RedOne for the novices. Before someone freaks out, I'm not saying everyone who buys Scarlet is a novice, but I'm sure there will be a few who do and Red doesn't want to answer 10,000 questions about the software.
________
Iolite vaporizer review (http://vaporizers.net/iolite-vaporizer)

Dory Breaux
04-17-2008, 11:46 AM
I'm hoping Avid will be able to handle Scarlet footage.

g3nov3s3
04-17-2008, 11:55 AM
You can install Mac OS on a PC by using a hack.
There are alot of tutorials on how to do this.
A few years ago it was not possible since Macs used different CPUs but now they use Intel CPUs .

Aiden Cornwell
04-17-2008, 12:09 PM
I am also a Vegas user and ideally would want to stick with it (ideally the next big upgrade will increase resolution).

I think its a shame that RED are so Apple biased.

When Red was first in development they contacted several companies only Apple returned the call. (That is what Jim has stated)

With that said the 3 leadings NLE are FCP, AVID, and Adobe Premier. There will be lots of choice out there but expect most of the advancements to be made on the AVID or adobe system and not Vegas for the time being. I expect that as Scarlet grows some smart Vegas users will create tools for it.

Nathan Buxton
04-17-2008, 12:30 PM
all the people who want to use SONY vegas for any kind of RED workflow are being kind of silly. SONY will never support RED in a way that won't be a total compromise to the user.

John Caballero
04-17-2008, 12:42 PM
Although many people oppose this idea I suggest that Red developed its own NLE to fully support their RAW workflow. Why not? They are already developing Red Alert and Redcine. They could take it a step further and go for the whole thing. I think it would be great to have an all Red digital cine universe.
Sony Vegas fully supports all the Sony cameras output.

Joseph Hutson
04-17-2008, 01:25 PM
Although many people oppose this idea I suggest that Red developed its own NLE to fully support their RAW workflow. Why not? They are already developing Red Alert and Redcine. They could take it a step further and go for the whole thing. I think it would be great to have an all Red digital cine universe.
Sony Vegas fully supports all the Sony cameras output.

NOPE! I disagree like the others. Improve the one you do have, don't make another fit for Beta and problems.

Just wait for FCS to drop 50% of their price just like all of their other Pro Apps.

Also does the Scarlet have the same output that Sony Cameras do?

John Caballero
04-17-2008, 01:37 PM
“Improve the one you do have”? What does that mean? Who has it? You, Sony, Apple, Red? If Red can put together a breakthrough camera and Redcine and Red Alert to handle its output an NLE should be a breeze for them. Of course it would really hurt Apple and the others but that’s business.

Joseph Hutson
04-17-2008, 04:25 PM
“Improve the one you do have”? What does that mean? Who has it? You, Sony, Apple, Red? If Red can put together a breakthrough camera and Redcine and Red Alert to handle its output an NLE should be a breeze for them. Of course it would really hurt Apple and the others but that’s business.

Jim is hurting Sony because that is what they deserve.

Being as Apple is the ONLY one who called Jim back, why would you want to hurt Apple?

I don't see where you are coming from!?!?!

John Caballero
04-17-2008, 05:27 PM
Oh boy.....
It has nothing to do with hurting anybody. First thing people have to make clear in their heads is that Red is not hurting Sony, Panasonic or any of the top guys out there at this particular moment. Red is a newcomer to the business of making digital cinema cameras and they will suffer a lot of growing pains. That is the very nature of start-ups. People with experience in starting and developing a new business know this very well. Their stuff is very impressive and the technology is amazing but at the moment there is a lot of struggle to produce. They will take a long while to solidly establish their products. Again, let me repeat it: they are not hurting anybody out there.
I am rooting for them all the way. I would love to have a Scarlet sitting right in front of me right now, but I realize that at this moment is only a dream.
Final Cut might be now the NLE working the closest with Red, but believe me, after a while it won't be the only one. Premiere, Edius, Avid, Vegas and others are as important to this business as Final Cut. I know is hard to acknowledge, but there are many professionals doing their editing work on PCs. A Red NLE would be a perfect tool for a Red workflow because their focus would be exclusively with that. No Sony, P2 or anything else. All power concentrated on the Red workflow.
But, it really doesn’t matter to me; I will continue happily doing my work right now with what I have in front of me. I’ll worry about Raw next year.

kmikami
04-17-2008, 05:38 PM
Red should build their own computers too that only work with Red software and Red footage. :whistling:

John Caballero
04-17-2008, 06:00 PM
All computers are built with the same components, no matter what brand. Red should go into that business first!

car3o
04-17-2008, 06:43 PM
For those who are worried, here's a solution.
A "hackintosh" as they call it. Nobody has had any major issues now that Leopard uses intel cpu's. So, now that this is out of the way. I'm PC all the way, and now I can use a mac, without buying a 4k mac computer.

http://techman2000.blogspot.com/2008/03/install-guide-for-osx86-leopard-desktop.html

RicanJoe
04-17-2008, 07:03 PM
Red should build their own computers too that only work with Red software and Red footage. :whistling:
That would be interesting, but unlikely. It would probably be made out of aluminum, carbon fiber and steel with a black and red paint job and weigh just under 100 pounds.

HD Bubaloo
04-17-2008, 08:11 PM
Use a professional NLE and you will have some sort of Red compatibility. Vegas is not and has never been considered professional. Its a consumer editing software package.

As Aidenvfx stated, Apple was onboard from the beginning, as was AJA.

Fact is, if you are going to release anything Audio/video related your going to be smart and make it work on Apple first since 90% of the creative community uses mac.

Jim said they are working on PC solutions. Until then, I invite you over to the DarkSide. (apple)

HD Bubaloo
04-17-2008, 08:17 PM
People exagerate about Mac's costs. $4,000 ? Give me a break. Fact is you can run FCP Studio 2 (color bogs) on a minimac with 2GB of ram for around $600.00 and Build a firewire 800 raid of 1TB for $340. FCP Studio 2 for $1,145, Toss in a monitor and keyboard and mouse for another $350 and your looking at a complete system for under $2500 and for $300 more run XP Pro as a second os on VMWARE.

What PC and what Software can you do that for running XP?

HD Bubaloo
04-17-2008, 08:20 PM
Hackintosh's are crap. Don't waste your time with them, you will never get it running 100% and if your using it for intensive editing your going to have issues.

A decent Mac can pay for itself on 1 job easy so why #ick around with your post prod tools.

John Caballero
04-17-2008, 08:53 PM
I say use what works best for you. Most NLEs have essentially the same features and the final output files are the same. The fastest rendering I’ve seen is with Edius. It is mighty quick. Vegas I think is great. Easy to learn and with plenty of features. And the output well, you wouldn’t notice any difference from others. If you feel Final Cut gives you extra powers that’s fine, as long as it keeps you happy while you work.

kmikami
04-17-2008, 09:05 PM
That would be interesting, but unlikely. It would probably be made out of aluminum, carbon fiber and steel with a black and red paint job and weigh just under 100 pounds.

Yeah, it was a joke meant to point out the absurdity of asking for a Red NLE. What's the point of Red entering into markets where margins are already low and competition is high?

John Caballero
04-17-2008, 10:51 PM
Then give away for free. Geeezzz.

Ameer Azari
04-17-2008, 11:24 PM
Hi. I have a 24 inch iMac

these are the Specs

2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Extreme
4GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM - 2x2GB
500GB Serial ATA Drive
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
ATI Radeon HD 2600 PRO with 256MB memory
24-inch glossy widescreen LCD
AirPort Extreme
Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR

will I be able to edit 2K footage from the Scarlet without too much hassle?

also I'll be getting a macbook pro:

2.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
4GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM - 2x2GB
200GB Serial ATA Drive @ 7200 rpm
MacBook Pro 17-inch Hi-Resolution LED Widescreen Display

Will that suffice for on set editing?

I can't really afford MAC PRO at the moment, as I'd rather order 2 Scarlets

John Caballero
04-17-2008, 11:32 PM
Current Red One owners shed some light for Ameer and the rest of us please.

DSNR
04-17-2008, 11:42 PM
People exagerate about Mac's costs. $4,000 ? Give me a break. Fact is you can run FCP Studio 2 (color bogs) on a minimac with 2GB of ram for around $600.00 and Build a firewire 800 raid of 1TB for $340. FCP Studio 2 for $1,145, Toss in a monitor and keyboard and mouse for another $350 and your looking at a complete system for under $2500 and for $300 more run XP Pro as a second os on VMWARE.

What PC and what Software can you do that for running XP?

If you insist on comparing costs…here is a pc I built for myself:
- Intel® Workstation Board S5000XVN - $500
- Dual Xeon quad core 2.66GHz CPU's - $1200
- 4GB 533MHz DDR2 ECC Fully Buffered CL4 DIMM - $222
- Intel® Server Chassis - $200
- Seagate 1TB SATA 7200 - $240
All comes to $2362

The radeon HD 2600 XT that comes standard with Mac pro's 8 core systems retails at $160
So that addition would come up to $2522 (compared to the equivalent Mac Pro $3299 8 core equivalent)

I on the other hand bought an NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 for $1500 to complete my station as I needed it....but it is not necessary to have this kind of a beast.

It also important to say that my motherboard is easily upgradable to 32GB which would cost me about $2500 whereas in Mac it would cost $8600.

I agree, it is laboring to built it by yourself but it is well worth it. If you don’t know how to build them, either learn from a friend who does…it really isn’t that hard to learn, or get it built by a local privately own computer store.
Although I’m a PC man myself I sometimes work and enjoy Mac’s at the lab in my research facility. I agree that they do have beautiful products. As it was discussed before, now days under the hood they are virtually the same products.

I am certain the RED Team will make it quite easy to work with the scarlet on a PC as well as on a Mac. After all, the PC market is huge and as a company that needs to render substantial revenue they will not overlook that.

Kind Regards

Ameer Azari
04-17-2008, 11:48 PM
Current Red One owners shed some light for Ameer and the rest of us please.

what do mean by..."Ameer and the rest of us"?
:shifty:

John Caballero
04-17-2008, 11:59 PM
We need lots of knowledge on this subject, about 20 million of us and counting. By the way Ameer did you hear the waiting list opened for the Scarlet and 19,999,999 sent in their deposits already? :)

Ameer Azari
04-18-2008, 12:03 AM
We need lots of knowledge on this subject, about 20 million of us and counting. By the way Ameer did you hear the waiting list opened for the Scarlet and 19,999,999 sent in their deposits already? :)

see, with you John, I'm never sure if you are joking or not.

let's see, I really doubt that 19,999,999 have sent in deposits, considering that that is the population of England, (and I'm sure if 19,999,999 did send in deposits, then we could start our own nation somewhere near Florida)

John Caballero
04-18-2008, 12:06 AM
Hurry and send your money and you will be the 20th million citizen of that mythical country! :w00t:

Ameer Azari
04-18-2008, 12:14 AM
Hurry and send your money and you will be the 20th million citizen of that mythical country! :w00t:

do I get a special T-Shirt?

brandon herman
04-18-2008, 12:34 AM
if 19,999,999 did send in deposits, then we could start our own nation somewhere near Florida

RedLandia!

very Lex Luthor of you.

:)

Ameer Azari
04-18-2008, 12:36 AM
Mwahaha!!!

Lawrence Bansbach
04-18-2008, 07:26 AM
Same way things are done now with Red Code raw. However Apple anounced that color will now be able to handle r3d files now if only it could handle 3k resolution.

So tools will be

Red alert
Red Cine
Crimson (will be popular for Scarlet as most people who are using scarlet will not be buying Scratch)
FCP
Colour
Other 3 party apps not out yet I know there are a few more in the worksIn a video interview on FreshDV, the interviewer asks Ted Schilowitz "Will this be a RAW workflow similar to Red -- you'll go through Red Cine, same type workflow?" Schilowitz responds, "Different tools -- we're going to develop different tools and different ways to work, but they're all in the same vein as what we're doing now." From this I deduce that workflow will be similar but tailored specifically to Scarlet.

HD Bubaloo
04-18-2008, 10:45 AM
DSNR: You left out a couple of costs that may prevent you from editing.

1) the operating system
2) a power supply
3) your editing software.

Add those to your $2522.00

Also why bother comparing your quad core to an octo core mac? Your not talking XP's to apples.

Ameer: While you may not do a 2k workflow with an imac since you cannot though in a Kona 3 card, you can do an offline edit using DVCPRO HD or (Prorez 422 with IO HD) and do an online or relink on a higher end system.

DSNR
04-18-2008, 12:16 PM
HD Bubaloo, You must have overlooked somethings:

- The server chassis comes with a 600W pfc power supply.

- My system has Two (2) processors...both are quad core which makes it 8 core...just like the Mac pro...

- I bought a 64bit XP OEM for $10, a price the university pays. But others can get OEM CD for about $150 (I apologies, I forgot to add the operating system, but even with that addition the PC system is still cheaper)

- I don’t think the Mac pro comes with an editing software either. You will have to purchase on either systems an editing software...I was comparing the systems wasn’t I?

HD Bubaloo
04-18-2008, 12:48 PM
Your right I overlooked it because you didn't mention it.

My appologies, most of us in the real world get XP for $10.00 as well.

the quote I gave that added up to $2500 or so included Final Cut Studio 2. That includes Color, Motion, FCP 6, LiveType, Soundtrack Pro, Qmaster, Compressor, and DVD Studio Pro.

What will the software you buy add up to, to equal the same capabilities?
Avid Media Composer Mojo DX at $9k ? Oh wait that doesn't include any motion compositing or particle effects software or color grading.

You have convinced me. Building a PC is the way to go. I will have to inform my customers that they should dump there FCP/AJA suites and go home brew for their clients needs.

HD Bubaloo
04-18-2008, 12:50 PM
I forgot, Students know everything (even though most of us graduated over a decade and a half ago or more ourselves)

DNSR, I have learned a lot from your positive DIY outlook on post production solutions. Let me know how that works out for you.

Ameer Azari
04-18-2008, 01:17 PM
I forgot, Students know everything (even though most of us graduated over a decade and a half ago or more ourselves)

DNSR, I have learned a lot from your positive DIY outlook on post production solutions. Let me know how that works out for you.

PWNED!

DSNR
04-18-2008, 01:43 PM
The Geek I am, I assumed it was well known that this specific chassis came with a ps. Also I did mention It was Dual Quad processors…

I graduated long time ago as well my friend, although I am still affiliated with the university while conducting research in cognitive neuroscience. The system I built is for my lab for simulation purposes only and not for editing, however, as a hobbyist in CGI and After Effects I am certain a system like that can be quite a workstation for these purposes.

I was not trying to convey a message that is supposed to tell you what you should do, or especially what you should be telling your clients. I hope I didn’t offend you, I had no intention in doing so. You clearly have more experience than I do in these matters. However I was just trying to show people here that the myth of a huge price and hardware but especially quality differences in this kind of workstation systems is utterly tenuous.

Once the Scarlet comes out I will purchase it and build at home an equivalent system and will be sure to let you know how it worked out for me. To be honest I had no idea that Final Cut studio can be so cheap and quite a complete package that’s quite the deal I must agree. However, I would still spend the extra money for adobe products. I have been for many years an advocate of their products.

RicanJoe
04-19-2008, 10:11 AM
Well thanks to everyone who posted. I have a more clear understanding of what I should do.

diskojerk
04-19-2008, 10:23 AM
All computers are built with the same components, no matter what brand. Red should go into that business first!

They're already in that business, it's called the "RED ONE".

diskojerk
04-19-2008, 10:51 AM
I understand peoples preference for using the systems they are used to as well as using the software they are familiar with. It seems a bit unreasonable to me though to refuse to purchase or refuse to use the equipment that RED has designed it's work flow around. You wouldn't buy a car, then refuse to put gasoline in it, then call the car company and tell them to keep working on it because you don't like gasoline and what they really need to do is design a car that can run on gasoline, diesel, electric and hydrogen, depending on what you prefer.

mattbatt
05-07-2008, 03:26 PM
If you insist on comparing costs…here is a pc I built for myself:
- Intel® Workstation Board S5000XVN - $500
- Dual Xeon quad core 2.66GHz CPU's - $1200
- 4GB 533MHz DDR2 ECC Fully Buffered CL4 DIMM - $222
- Intel® Server Chassis - $200
- Seagate 1TB SATA 7200 - $240
All comes to $2362

The radeon HD 2600 XT that comes standard with Mac pro's 8 core systems retails at $160
So that addition would come up to $2522 (compared to the equivalent Mac Pro $3299 8 core equivalent)

I on the other hand bought an NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 for $1500 to complete my station as I needed it....but it is not necessary to have this kind of a beast.

It also important to say that my motherboard is easily upgradable to 32GB which would cost me about $2500 whereas in Mac it would cost $8600.

I agree, it is laboring to built it by yourself but it is well worth it. If you don’t know how to build them, either learn from a friend who does…it really isn’t that hard to learn, or get it built by a local privately own computer store.
Although I’m a PC man myself I sometimes work and enjoy Mac’s at the lab in my research facility. I agree that they do have beautiful products. As it was discussed before, now days under the hood they are virtually the same products.

I am certain the RED Team will make it quite easy to work with the scarlet on a PC as well as on a Mac. After all, the PC market is huge and as a company that needs to render substantial revenue they will not overlook that.

Kind Regards

Ok, I've been reading this post. I use both mac and pc's in the professional graphic design business and am getting more and more into film, I edit with Final Cut CS2 on my dual G5 and work with HD fine.

I built my own computers in the fifth grade (I'm 25 now).

#1: Apple uses server processors from Intel with more cache and faster clock speeds. Remember this when comparing PC desktop core 2 duo's with Apple's Harpertown desktops.

Now, when you build your own PC, sure, you can find a motherboard that supports server chips. Are your processors the new Harpertown breed? I'm wondering, seeing Woodcrest came at 2.66 - 3.0 ghz while Harpertown debuted with 2.8 ghz - 3.2 ghz.

The mac you are comparing against has Harpertowns which introduces the 45nm production process (down from 65nm Woodcrest = more power efficient chips running cooler, and with more processing power), 12MB per processor of L2 cache with 6MB shared between pairs of processor cores (up from 8MB per with 4MB shared of Woodcrest).

The mac's Octo 2.8 ghz Harpertown processors vs. your 2.66 means the mac is faster with more cache per processor and and also has faster bus speeds [dual 1600 mhz buses] on their mother boards.

I don't know how you built your PC, but is it RAID ready with 4 sliding trays for Hardrives with controllers built in as well as a fast bus to support the throughput? (RAID is essential for what we're doing here and I don't have to build a clunky external box with tons of wires and adapters, find a controller card and get multiple drivers and pray that it works . . .)

The mac's RAM can be bridged to 256 bit with their dual memory controllers. Oh and you are absolutely right about the outrages Mac ram prices . . . which is why no true Apple fan will buy RAM or 3rd party products through Apple. Everyone knows this. I can buy my PC 800MHz DDR2 ECC through any vendor and match your RAM price.

Umm, well lets see: with Mac's stable unix based OS, allowing me a virus free, super creative fast workflow, free from blue-screens of death, driver issues, and clunky interfaces that sap precious system resources (Vista anyone??), I can get an Octo core machine running faster then yours with less power and RAID ability with the swish of a tray for $200 more and I didn't even have to spend my time making the thing. Oh and let's not forget Apple's powerful Pro apps with direct support of RED's interface out of the box.

It looks like a steal to me!

And for those PC buyers who don't want to build their own computer, plan on spending 2k more than a Mac for a comparable octo server based machine!

btw, I'm waiting for Mac's next upgrade: using Intel's Nehalem chips. They are getting released this year and will offer brand new architecture (you realize Intel built the Core, Core 2 Duo and Xeon's upon their P4 architecture? Well, they are changing everything so get ready.) Don't know when Mac will implement them, but they will offer 8 core per chips in their more expensive models, so maybe Apple will debut a 16 core machine. Exciting!

mattbatt
05-07-2008, 03:32 PM
Oh wait, DSNR, you mentioned that you are affiliated with a university? Well, that makes 2 of us and Apple will give you an educational discount of at least $200. So I guess now we break even!

Christoffer Glans
05-07-2008, 04:19 PM
with Mac's stable unix based OS, allowing me a virus free, super creative fast workflow, free from blue-screens of death, driver issues, and clunky interfaces that sap precious system resources

A well balanced and fresh Windows is just as stable. It's all about what system that is most targeted by malicious code and how the countermeasures mess with the basecode.
ALL problems I've had with my PC has been based on codes trying to erease bad codes and codes that recode other "good" codes etc.
But to say that Windows is unstable is false...

gskowal
11-14-2008, 10:02 PM
Hi. I have a 24 inch iMac

these are the Specs

2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Extreme
4GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM - 2x2GB
500GB Serial ATA Drive
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
ATI Radeon HD 2600 PRO with 256MB memory
24-inch glossy widescreen LCD
AirPort Extreme
Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR

will I be able to edit 2K footage from the Scarlet without too much hassle?


I've got the same specs and i would also like to know if i would have any trouble with 3K. Any RED1 USERS that used a mac and can tell if this machine can handle 3k with no problems?

Stuart English
11-14-2008, 10:19 PM
Hi. I have a 24 inch iMac

will I be able to edit 2K footage from the Scarlet without too much hassle?



Lets see if we can put this thread back on the original track :red_bandana: with an part answer to the above....

A key concept is that a Wavelet compressed image (as used by RED) has several layers of resolution available for decoding.

For example I can record a 4K image. But I can then decode it at 4K, or 2K or 1K.

Each time I drop a resolution step the ability of a computer to decode and play that resolution increases. So usually, you would find an editable resolution for sure.


Lets assume that turned out to be 1K. But your project has to be finished at 2K or 4K.

Then the task would be to re-edit the information in non-real time using your edit list as the instruction set for that conform pass.