Broadcast standard/RED RAY revisited

[JD Holloway]

Its funny how these things come up...
I remember posting ages ago about the posibility of RED codec becoming a standard for broadcast.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4212&highlight=broadcast

While I didn't forsee REDRAY at the time, they do, in my mind, have something in common. An "every day" delivery format for the consumer. Correct me if im wrong, but if its possible to have data rates/compression this "deep" with common red laser technology, clearly it must be possible to use existing satellite transmittion to send 4k(ish) to an at-home 4k decodebox.

Loving the future!

[michael zaletel]

I don't know if 4k will ever be necessary or desired in the home in terms of the mass market. All these years later, consumers are more than satisfied with 4k resolution in the theater on a huge screen and haven't demanded all films be shot in 70mm or IMAX in order to keep spending $10 on a movie ticket. Since most consumers cannot fit larger than 80" screen in their home, 1080p on a 60" screen from 5 feet looks as good as theatrical releases. BUT, i do think the future could hold 60 frame per second full 1080p at 12 or 16 bit color range with higher quality on the compression side. I just think some things hit a plateau ya know?

Some will say, then why shoot in 4k or 5k if you think mass market 4k television sets aren't on the horizon anytime in the near future. Well, DOF for one thing but also because shooting 4k allows pan and scan, smoothcam and zoom capabilities and because 4k converted down to 1080p will always look better than 1080p shot native. IMHO! :)

-shooter

[MichaelP]

Well Panasonic is certainly going to want some 4K material to display on their 105" 4K moitor for the home...

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/07/panasonics-gigantic-150-inch-plasma-is-official/


Michael

[Craig Bowman]

I don't know if 4k will ever be necessary or desired in the home in terms of the mass market. All these years later, consumers are more than satisfied with 4k resolution in the theater ...
-shooter

There are but a handful of theatres worldwide with 4k. Most digital theaters are in fact running 2k. I would love it if the local theaters installed 4k but they aren't.

[Peter Majtan]

There are but a handful of theatres worldwide with 4k. Most digital theaters are in fact running 2k. I would love it if the local theaters installed 4k but they aren't.

In Europe (except for UK) SONY have managed to push through their 4K SXRD. By 2010 there (in europe) will be more 4K DC's (Digital Cinemas) then 2K and 35mm put together... Maybe even sooner...

[Vincent Rice]

In Europe (except for UK) SONY have managed to push through their 4K SXRD. By 2010 there (in europe) will be more 4K DC's (Digital Cinemas) then 2K and 35mm put together... Maybe even sooner...

More than 2K and 35mm? That would mean several thousand installations in the next 18 months. What's your source?

[M Most]

In Europe (except for UK) SONY have managed to push through their 4K SXRD. By 2010 there (in europe) will be more 4K DC's (Digital Cinemas) then 2K and 35mm put together... Maybe even sooner...

I very, very seriously doubt that.

2020 - Maybe.

The digital rollout in Europe has been abysmally slow in every country other than the UK (a notable exception), Germany (to a much lesser extent), and Norway (because of some government intervention). The economic picture needs to be a lot brighter for that to change significantly in the short term.

[roryhinds]

or the cost of projectors need to come down.

[M Most]

or the cost of projectors need to come down.

That would basically be true, but it's a rather simplistic view. The projector is only one component. There are servers, automation systems, storage systems, screen upgrades, and other things that are also a part of a digital cinema installation. Not to mention that the lamps are more expensive than those used in film projectors and generally have to be replaced more frequently. It should also be pointed out that one of the current drivers for more digital projection adoption (and perhaps the only one that has been shown to be a potential audience draw) is 3D, which requires significant additional investment beyond the basic projector.

[Peter Majtan]

SONY will ship this year 15000+ of their 4K SXRD models - majority to go to EU and USA. And that is just 2008...

[Peter Majtan]

PS: Don't forget that other major players (in the Projector field) are also introducing 4K models and are offering interesting upgrades to their current 2K customers. So as the 4K installations will grow in numbers - the 2K ones will actually decline - and so will 35mm. This will tip the scales...

With great quality HD projectors and flat TVs available at bargain prices cinemas needs to offer something little more then 128 pixels in horizontal resolution...

[Stuart English]

SONY will ship this year 15000+ of their 4K SXRD models - majority to go to EU and USA. And that is just 2008...

If this proves to be true, good for them.

[Peter Majtan]

I am not a big fan of SONY (even after working with their HQs in Tokyo for couple of years), but some things they do right...

Releasing 4K projector for $85K when 2K projectors were $150K+ was "almost" as revolutionary as what RED is doing with their cameras. They do deserve credit for that and I sincerely wish them to meet (and exceed) this target...

[M Most]

If this proves to be true, good for them.

That's an extremely huge "if."

[Peter Majtan]

Why? It's middle of May and they have 6K+ orders already... Like it, or not, RED may be actually helping with these numbers as people in the business are realizing that 4K is becoming mainstream (thanks to RED!) and therefore it makes sense to outfit the new cinemas with "current" technology. With such an investment You wanna be future-proof. Another thing that helps is that SONY has priced their 4K projectors in line with (or bellow) competition's 2K offerings - now what You want to buy for the same money 2K or 4K?

[Mark L. Pederson]

SONY will ship this year 15000+ of their 4K SXRD models - majority to go to EU and USA. And that is just 2008...

Source?

If they ship half of that - they sure as hell better hire an army of support technicians.

I STRONGLY doubt those numbers.

[M Most]

Why? It's middle of May and they have 6K+ orders already...

Right. And you got that number from......... where?

[Vincent Rice]

Why? It's middle of May and they have 6K+ orders already...

I'm sorry but these numbers make no sense at all. Source please.

[Peter Majtan]

The source is directly from SONY HQ's in Tokyo. The guy is in the level 3 corporate hierarchy (meaning that his boss's boss is the president - read VVIP). Please remember that these projectors are not only for DC applications. I have personally helped to develop the 4xDVI input board that allows direct connection to a computer, which has broaden up the customer's base 10-fold...

Also note I have said that they have 6K+ "orders" - not shipped products...

[JD Holloway]

Ok,
just musing here,
if RED can playback at 1080p and our computers can barely....
then red is a solid basis for redcode-decoder.
if RED RAY can handle low(ish) bandwidth 4k transcode...
if you coupled them together, do you have a 4k on set playback device for real time?
Like a pimped out AJA?
This could of course be a RED HERRING.

[Peter Majtan]

Interesting idea - but how would You couple them together? Also - on what exactly would You watch the 4K image?
You could just pop the CF out of Red One and into the Red-Ray for playback, while You keep filming on another CF card. But since Your CF is actually a "original negative" - I would strongly advice against it...

[Peter Majtan]

Now imagine the Red-Ray having a build-in SSD/HDD and off-load function! Wouldn't that be cool? You can backup Your CF to the SSD/HDD and use that copy to play with the footage on location - replay, quick grade, quick edit, etc... Your CF is kept safely away and You KNOW You have the shot You wanted and it is already backed up... Even if this would drive the Red-Ray to $2K+ - it would be worth it - at least for me... You could always have two versions:

- one as simple playback unit (as announced)
- higher-end model as pro "VTR" deck with build-in SSD/HDD and a good quality LCD (at least full HD). You could do quick edits, etc.. and backup Your footage to the SSD/HDD

[JD Holloway]

Interesting idea - but how would You couple them together? Also - on what exactly would You watch the 4K image?
You could just pop the CF out of Red One and into the Red-Ray for playback, while You keep filming on another CF card. But since Your CF is actually a "original negative" - I would strongly advice against it...

How about some sort of ESATA splitter. One to the deck the other to the drive. Maybe ESATA and CF will operate at same time. 4k monitors are coming soon enough. Of that I have little doubt.

[JD Holloway]

Given Jim's post today...
"Domestic" RedRay/4K anyone....

Bump.

[Jeremy Torrie]

Would love to see an update on this.

[Jeremy Torrie]

As I understand it Red Ray is a player only at the moment...If Red could enable mastering within Avid or DS -that would be sweet...being able to write back to SSD somehow, as you can with P2.

Right now all there is when delivering content to North American broadcasters is HD SR. I'd love to be able to output a master based on my deliverables, and then simply send the RR to my post house of choice so they can generate the HDSR master with Closed Captioning embedded.

FYI a used SRW-5500 is still $70,000+

[Mondo Ghulam]

Screen Daily just announced that Berlinale will be premiering Taxi Driver and a documentary by student film-makers 'Stuttgart 21 – Think To Remember (Stuttgart 21 – Denk mal!)' in 4K.

http://www.screendaily.com/festivals/berlin/berlin-adds-extra-venue-taxi-driver-4k-to-line-up/5023092.article?query=0

[JD Holloway]

Hoping this NAB will show us the goods.

This is a very quiet part of the forum.

That being said, Canada is looking to start a pay for data fee to our Internet...
We here are not impressed.