Meter or EVF?

[Michael Brennan]

For non ENG EFP jobs what will you use? Meter, EVF, monitor or combination?


Mike

[Ken Corben]

In 4k redcode RAW i will light with a meter - a known set up and result oriented technique. Monitors are essential on set but not the end all in the lighted look and exposure when shooting RAW.

Ralph Oshiro comments?

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I'll probably use both. A monitor or EVF with histogram display is very useful to watch out for clipping, but it doesn't monitor shadow exposure as well (i have found on other cameras, RED may be different.)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I will mostly use a meter. The EVF or a monitor will also be useful too for histograms, I'm assuming it will show zebras for over-exposure, etc.. But as I started out saying, the meter will be the primary tool. I'm using a Sekonic L-358 and it's been great with my HVX as well as my photography. This Sekonic model does have Cine functions and settings for FPS and shutter, but I'd be interested in other options too if there are better. But no complaints here yet with this one.

[Chris Gearhart]

I'll trust the histograms and evf, mostly. Having said that, for dramatic work, planning with the use of a meter is preferred. I will then verify with histograms/EVF display after the planning and lighting is set.

[Jim Arthurs]

I've mostly retired my collection of meters since moving to digital... I like the feedback of histograms and waveform monitors and zebras to know where my levels are and my exposure is. I feel like I've "paid the dues" the last 15 years and understand exposure by shooting film and not seeing results for days and weeks, and now just want to relax a bit, and go with the flow of these new tools and my intuition. Or maybe I'm getting lazy.

Having said that, I'd not be the least bit scared, based on what we know about RED and the way REDCINE will work, to treat it just like film and shoot completely blind with my two meters and expect good pictures.

[Steve Gibby]

I like the feedback of histograms and waveform monitors and zebras to know where my levels are and my exposure is.

Ditto for me...my meters are retired for the most part. They're available if I feel I really need them, but for the most part I'll use histograms, waveform, and zebra (if available) with the EVF and on-board monitor for setting exposure level. I'll be shooting REDCODE RAW extensively, and that brings the added advantage of being able to tweak exposure of the RAW files using REDCINE before exporting them to the NLE.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hmmm.... Maybe I should rethink my meter stance. I'm just used to it as it's a necessity with the HVX and 35mm adapter (IMO). It will be interesting to see what the monitoring capabilities on the RED are, I have high hopes, but haven't really thought to much on this issue.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

meter for sure! but will reference with the EVF.. im still sketched out on using monitors..especially on an outdoor
location

[Billy Summers]

I love using my meter, because that means I'm shooting film. Otherwise, when shooting digital, I'm with Jim and Gibby. I've found that using a meter when shooting digital is...futile? As long as the waveform/monitor is properly calibrated, I got no issues. Digital does not have the same flub factor as film, but as long as your image is damn close, minor adjustments are "fixable" in post/CC.

cents=2
:greedy:

[Billy Summers]

meter for sure! but will reference with the EVF.. im still sketched out on using monitors..especially on an outdoor
location

throw it in a tent, or drape some Duv' over yur head.

[jbeale]

What does a meter do that a waveform & histogram display does not? It seems to me that the meter gives you some approximation- maybe a very good one, but an approximation- to what gets recorded on the camera. The waveform or histogram readout tells you exactly what is recorded on the camera.

[chuck colburn]

It let's you set the ratio between key and fill and back lights not to mention readings for hair, eye, etc. lights. You know, lighting!

[Poi Boy]

I start with a spot meter or my internal spot meter (brain/experience), and make final adjustments or confirmation with waveform.
Aloha
-A

[Alexander Nikishin]

I'll most definitely have my Sekonic L-758C as the workhorse in addition to checking my waveform and monitor from time to time.

[Billy Summers]

When shooting film, you don't really HAVE to meter the backlight. You can just let it blow out, because on film it tends resolve itself and look nice. Plus you can usually bring it back in CC.

With digital, you gotta watch that shit like Pamela A., otherwise you end up blowing out (that part) the image and recording no info :wacko: (in that blown out area).
And the waveform monitor tells you when your Actually shooting legal or not...which is a great thing.

Anyways...

[Brook Willard]

A histogram is gonna do it for me... it's like a spot meter on crack. I generally prefer to use my spot meter when rolling film, using the incident meter mostly for reference. I've been shooting a lot of HVX/35 lately and I've found my meter's pretty much useless. I'll save it for the film shoots.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I've been shooting a lot of HVX/35 lately and I've found my meter's pretty much useless.

Interesting. When I was shooting the HVX with the M2, I found the meter to be invaluable. Shooting the HVX without the adapter, I don't use the meter as I get more consistent readings in camera without all the junk in front of the lens, maybe it was just my setup. Hmmm. I also use the meter with some of my older SLR camera gear. With my D2Xs, the meter is pointless most of the time.

[Brook Willard]

Case in point: I'm currently shooting a short on the mini35 with Super Speeds. Tiny changes in light that wouldn't register significantly on film made a world of difference on the camera .

So while I [i]could still get readings and sort out ratios, they looked different on HD than they would on 35mm or 16mm. Accordingly, all of the values that I'm used to seeing [different ratios, values where lights overexpose, etc.] are no longer useful. So rather than re-learning my light meter and the numbers it spits at me, I just fired up the monitor and exposed by eye. I had a waveform monitor for the tricky days, but the show couldn't afford it anymore so I'm officially on my own.

My first HVX day was hilarious. I lit the first setup as I'd light it for film [lit to 200], fired up the camera and... oh man. It was bad. It's like painting with a hose.

[Don Woods]

first HVX day was hilarious. I lit the first setup as I'd light it for film [lit to 200], fired up the camera and... oh man. It was bad. It's like painting with a hose.

Yeah that would be harsh..

[Daniel Reichenbach]

I like my spot meter and greycard a lot for contrast ratios while I can watch the set from the camera angle. So I will use histo and meter.

[Ralph Oshiro]

In 4k redcode RAW i will light with a meter - a known set up and result oriented technique. Monitors are essential on set but not the end all in the lighted look and exposure when shooting RAW.

Ralph Oshiro comments?Gee, I'm flattered! Of course, I can shoot without a meter, but when I light big shows, I always bring along my trusty footcandle meter. I LOVE footcandle meters! I never use traditional cine meters when lighting for video (I've actually even used footcandle meters when lighting film). Footcandle meters are great because they measure in linear units (as opposed to logrithmic units), and they measure in absolute units (20fc is ALWAYS 20fc, no matter what shutter speed or f-stop). Easy as pie to calculate ratios. Nice thing about footcandle meters, especially the analog-display ones, is you can walk your subject area and see if you're even (just watch if the needle moves). Also, you never have to walk to the monitor, or to the camera just to set your key light level. Say your camera takes 20 footcandles to make caucasian flesh read 70% IRE at f/2.8 . . . well, just set all your key areas so that it reads 20 footcandles as you walk your talent's marks. You like your backlight 75% of the level of your key? Focus your backlight until it reads 15fc. You like it 200% of your key? Set it at 40fc (assuming a 20fc key). With linear units, the math is dumb-ass easy.

My favorite footcandle meter is the analog Spectra Low-Light Candela. The low-light Candela is especially appropriate for today's faster cameras and faster film stocks, with a 0-50fc scale, instead of the normal Candela's 0-100fc scale. Too f--cking bad Spectra doesn't make it anymore, since I lost both of mine years ago. Now I'm using an analog Sekonic, which is just about as accurate, according to a test I did with another Spectra recently. The Sekonic is a servicable replacement (although I sure miss the crap outta my old Spectras), and it's pretty inexpensive too!

[chuck colburn]

Hey Ralph,

Right on!
I'm sure everyone would also love to have a detailed descriptive account of candelas, luxes and lumens! lol
Seriously though what you said is so valid. Most stage and studio video guys I've seen use footcandle meters. As you say just as true for film. That an a contrast viewing monacal.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Well, thanks, Chuck! Footcandles are just so easy. Once your eyes get used to measuring a few levels, you get to be able to call out levels by eye, and get pretty close! It's just what I find easiest for me that works. Everyone works differently, and for a lot of critical film-exposure stuff, yes, you do need both a reflective spot meter and traditional incident cine. For those of us primarily in videoland, we have so few stops to play with, that we pretty much know that if anything's more than a stop and a half over--it's gone.

I like f/2.8 for video, because it gives us a little shallowness in depth-of-field, and we're not shooting at f-wide open, where dispersion tends to be greatest. It also handily lands us at anywhere between 15-30fc to key caucasian flesh tones at 70% IRE when shooting with modern broadcast video cameras (many of which have a sensitivity of f/11 @ 2000 lux).

I don't use a contrast-viewing filter, but I do own one of those $80 ND viewing glasses for focusing lamps, which it's GREAT for! Plus, I also like it as a shiny, techno-geeko kinda fashion accessory!

[tj williams]

Hey Billy up here we don't need a meter we just wait for the clouds to change.......(we both live under the same cloud bank)

Meters are still excellent on the scout. I thing they are especially useful when explainingto the director, why we are going to have to gell those windows...etc.etc...

[Billy Summers]

Hey Billy up here we don't need a meter we just wait for the clouds to change.......(we both live under the same cloud bank)

Meters are still excellent on the scout. I thing they are especially useful when explainingto the director, why we are going to have to gell those windows...etc.etc...
LOL...
Yeah, I use my meter mostly to hypnotize the director into getting better lighting packages and such.

[Ralph Oshiro]

What does a meter do that a waveform & histogram display does not?Granted, you don't NEED a meter. They're just handy sometimes. On a large set, you can walk around, holding only your meter, and dial in your gaffer and electricians verbally while focusing your lights, even when you're 200 feet from your camera or video village. On a recent night exterior, my backlights had to be about 125' from camera to clear a crane shot. I simply stood on the talent mark, and pointed my meter at the light, while I talked my electrician to focus the lamp to the desired light level. I got my desired ratio without having to walk all the way back to the crane or to video village.

[Stephen Williams]

Granted, you don't NEED a meter. They're just handy sometimes. On a large set, you can walk around, holding only your meter, and dial in your gaffer and electricians verbally while focusing your lights, even when you're 200 feet from your camera or video village. On a recent night exterior, my backlights had to be about 125' from camera to clear a crane shot. I simply stood on the talent mark, and pointed my meter at the light, while I talked my electrician to focus the lamp to the desired light level. I got my desired ratio without having to walk all the way back to the crane or to video village.

Hi,

Take a meter on a reko or use it for a prelight. You don't need the camera until it's time to shoot!

Stephen

[Priyesh P.]

Funny, I was just playing with our Sekonic L-558 Cine and talking with my brother about how useful it´ll be when digital acquisition is widely adapted. But we came to the conclusion that it´ll needed, you can´t carry a 30K+ camera around for lighting / location checks etc.

[JVB]

I worked on a pilot called jericho and we shot hd. The DP never used a meter when lighting his shots, he just looked at his monitor. So I think I am going to do the same.

[dalemccready]

I'll use my eyes, and the gaffer!

[Harry Clark]

A meter is sometimes useful in video if you need to send your gaffer ahead to prelight another set. I suppose it will be as useful with the Red as with film for this purpose, because the image control factors that muck up accurate ASA on a video camera (gamma, matrix, color correction) will be absent on the Red One.
Anyway, generally in electronica, I use a good monitor and waveform.
Cheers,
Harry

[Michael Morlan]

I use my meter and my eyes to light for any camera, film or video. Through pre-production tests and production successes/failures, I attune myself with the capabilities and constraints of the recording medium. I might use a calibrated monitor for final tweaks but usually I've already arrived at my exposures and colorimetry by the time I glance at the monitor... if the camera/monitor is even available.

I can't be guaranteed the camera/evf/monitor/whatever will be on set during a lighting setup. If I'm prelighting the day before shooting, if I'm fine tuning the next room while shooting continues nearby, for whatever reason, if I'm not prepared to use the tools on my hip and in my skull, I'm not prepared to call myself a director of photography.

Michael

[Alexander Nikishin]

Yup, meters and the old eyeballs will always be the safest route!

[I Bloom]

There needs to be another category here, which is to use Wavefore Histogram "Marker" and Zebras exclusively. Nothing else can be trusted on digital. After being hired to reshoot scenes where the DP was "lighting with the monitor" I have to say if you think this is going to work out you have a misunderstanding of the way you eyes work. Ditto to your meter, great for prelighting, but once the frame is up, why waste time with complicated and ultimately dangerous conversions just so you can feel like a reel old school DP. Take a black card with a hole in it and hold it infront of the matte box. Use it to isolate parts of the image on the waveform. This method is more trustworthy for a digital image than any spot meter will ever be because its the actual signal that will be recorded. If we had a way of looking directly at the reaction of the crystals on film while we were shooting it, we'd use it.

Ian Bloom

[Michael Brennan]

Ian
doesn't "Mostly use EVF with exposure display" in the poll fit the bill for you?

Mike