Sony Vegas Support? [Archive]

donatello b

04-20-2008, 12:02 PM

maybe , maybe not ... sony media are looking into what is possible for Vegas users .. remember sony media needs to know there is a demand from Vegas users for a Red vegas workflow ...
not much can be done until Red release the SDK ( or is it SKD?) .. at NAB
i was at sony Vegas booth on Monday ,was told that they have spoken to Red in past about SDK thing ... i then walked down to the Red booth with the sony media VP to see if Ted was around .. he wasn't - sony media VP was going to stop by on wednesday or thursday AM before floor was open to try to speak to Ted .. don't know if that happened ...

Elizabeth Lowrey

04-20-2008, 01:40 PM

Well it's great to hear that Sony is at least interested and has had some conversations. I REALLY want to be able to continue using Vegas as my editing platform and with a raw workflow. I'll be looking into Cineform's tools, of course, but native support for R3D in Vegas would be optimal.

Radoslav Karapetkov

04-20-2008, 01:47 PM

You mean Sony Vegas?

My psychic powers tell me it'll be the last platform to get RED support.

:).

David Taylor

04-20-2008, 02:04 PM

donatello b

04-20-2008, 03:53 PM

"My psychic powers tell me it'll be the last platform to get RED support "

the sony media division in madison,WI is very independent of sony ,japan ..
if Cineform comes up with a solution 1st and it works in Vegas at a affordable price then i would assume sony media will spend their R&D elsewhere ... it all comes down to numbers requesting support for specific codec's workflows ...

Radoslav Karapetkov

04-20-2008, 04:32 PM

Yeah, it's more likely to happen through the Cineform solutions.

Elizabeth Lowrey

04-20-2008, 07:09 PM

At the time CineForm is able to offer a Red workflow on Windows we also intend to support Vegas with CineForm RAW in a similar timeframe. This is consistent with our current (non-Red) Vegas workflow today.

Thanks for that info, David. Can you clarify the major features of this workflow? In other words, with Cineform installed, does it work "under the hood" to allow R3D files to open directly in Vegas, or must there be an external transcode to Cineform RAW first? If it's the latter, how long does the transcode take?

David Taylor

04-21-2008, 06:56 AM

Thanks for that info, David. Can you clarify the major features of this workflow? In other words, with Cineform installed, does it work "under the hood" to allow R3D files to open directly in Vegas, or must there be an external transcode to Cineform RAW first? If it's the latter, how long does the transcode take?

Eclaire, as CineForm does for support of all cameras (RAW or non-RAW), we convert camera formats to CineForm files and maintain chroma space; ie, Source Raw --> Cineform RAW; Source 444 --> CineForm 444; and Source YUV --> CineForm 422.

Our support for Vegas will be similar to our support for Premiere Pro, including active metadata on CineForm RAW. But we do not replace the video engine in Vegas as we do in Premiere Pro, so we will do a little bit less for Vegas than we do for Premiere. The CineForm product you'll use for Vegas is Neo 4K.

I would rather not get into performance figures yet for conversion of Red footage as that is too workflow specific, and we need to see the SDK first. There have been other conversion speed figures mentioned in the forum that are close to our experience with early firmware builds.

Disco Legend Zeke

04-24-2008, 03:37 PM

opinion
CineForm and Sony have shown their willingness to provision new recording formats as they emerge. The original CineForm tools for our new HDV was purchased by Sony very quickly. Indeed, SONY spent a lot of money trying to make a great NLE, and ended up buying Sound Forge.

meanwhile you will want proxies for a lot of early stuff anyway.

newbie question
I am DP on two projects, one requiring hours of live recording from stage preformances.

I already see firewire and USB hard drives on the shelf at fry's for $200 per TeraByte. Compared to a roll of 1 inch digital tape, its a bargain.

Are there standard hard drive output capabilities built into the red cam? Or is the recording hardware proprietary? thanks

jbeale

04-24-2008, 05:16 PM

The Red Drive sold by Red is a proprietary module based on two 160 GB laptop drives in a RAID 0 configuration. They use a raid because AFAIK there is no single drive fast enough to support the current data rates. The Red drive has standard I/O (firewire 400/800 and USB2) so once you've recorded the camera data to the drive, you can then transfer to any other drives using any standard laptop or desktop computer.

See also: http://www.red.com/accessories/digital_storage

Disco Legend Zeke

04-25-2008, 06:28 AM

...The Red drive has standard I/O (firewire 400/800 and USB2) so once you've recorded the camera data to the drive, you can then transfer to any other drives ]

but... can i take the stream from the camera directly to a generic raid array?

This is not just a matter of cost (although those little "EEP" sounds in th background are my boss pinching pennies.) A larger RAID with mirroring would give us a dupe master at shooting time, as well as saving the data transfer steps.

Elizabeth Lowrey

04-25-2008, 09:31 AM

but... can i take the stream from the camera directly to a generic raid array?

This is not just a matter of cost (although those little "EEP" sounds in th background are my boss pinching pennies.) A larger RAID with mirroring would give us a dupe master at shooting time, as well as saving the data transfer steps.

Information relevant to your question is in post #5 of this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12589

Joe Carney

05-02-2008, 09:03 AM

I'm glad to hear Madison is open to this. I just wouldn't count on too much until they get the 64bit version out in September. (Free upgrade to ver 8 users). I'm hoping the add >8bit per channel support in QT, plus add Directshow or something better than vfw. Currently Neo works in 8bit AFAIK.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso

05-02-2008, 10:01 AM

Well, i´m actually cutting in vegas 8 with QTs 720p24 photo jpeg clips exported from redcine. I get realtime (BEST full res) with some grading and the quality is just amazing.

donatello b

05-02-2008, 10:19 AM

i'm cutting in Vegas 7 ...
using the H proxy in FCP - export out as 2k (2:1 aspect) to Cineform codec (.mov) ..(note: do not export 2:1 aspect out as 1920x1080= image will be slight soft -always export matching the aspect of the proxy you are using in TL) ..

set up vegas project as HD 1080p 24p then custom the frame size height x W pixels to match the 2k 2:1 aspect ...
On Dell quad core ( 2.14) 4 gig ram ... 7200rpm internal drive .. preview quality set to GOOD - auto ... RT play back with CC ... if i set up project as SD widescreen then play back drops to 6-8fps ...
windows Media play can play back RT full 2k size ..

can't wait for the cineform export tool after Red releases SDK ...

Macgregor - are you using jpeg A or B clips or just jpep ?

update: i just installed 2 one terrebyte drive running raid 0 and now i can get 24fps playback (2k/HD/SD) in Vegas

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso

05-02-2008, 11:04 AM

Just Jpeg. THe file size is so small compared to uncompressed, while the image quality remains excellent even after heavy gradings.

The only issue with vegas is the 8bit limit.

NormLi

05-03-2008, 04:41 PM

So Macgregor, if you are cutting 720p24, are you planning to finish to 720p24?

Another thing I noticed that everyone may be interested in, is when I export a sequence (graded in FCP) to 1080p Quicktime from the _H proxy and import into Vegas8 as a 1080p24 timeline, it looks super sharp but the image that looks bright and dandy in FCP is now super dark and crushed in Vegas. I had to bump up the contrast/brightness again to match it to the FCP stuff...from there, I created a blu-ray disc directly from the Vegas8 timeline.

Any reasons why it would look so different? I also did a test where I just exported two identical clips to blu-ray from the Vegas8 timeline, one with just straight import from FCP quicktime file and then the same file dupped but bumping the contrast/brightness up. When I played back on standalone samsung blu-ray player, it corresponded with what I saw on the Vegas timeline. How about the FCP6 timeline stuff, is it falsely looking bright and normal? Tried on seperate screens and on the same screen with the same results.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso

05-04-2008, 08:11 AM

Well, FCP gamma issues + qt gamma issues + apple gamma 1.8, means you have no control of color gamma right now at this moment. It sucks. You have to use an external TV monitor to see what you are doing.

Vegas on the contrary shows the 709 color space in RGB so unless you apply a preview filter that converts from RGB to studio, everything will look a bit more contrasty at the end.

vincelucero

05-04-2008, 11:25 AM

Great to hear ppl are getting Vegas to cut RED somehow. I love the program for it's speed and realtime properties. Sad that Sony took it over as I think Sonic Foundry would have kicked some serious ass with P2 and R3Ds. Had to move over to FCP once we got our HVX, although I still cut long form stuff on Vegas.

Joe Carney

05-05-2008, 09:32 AM

Just Jpeg. THe file size is so small compared to uncompressed, while the image quality remains excellent even after heavy gradings.

The only issue with vegas is the 8bit limit.

MacGregor, you should get ahold of Sony development (at madison) and see if they will let you get the beta version of 8 that supports importing OpenExr to the time line. No 8bit limit on that. PM me and I'll give you the email.

Michael Morlan

05-05-2008, 09:36 AM

Had to move over to FCP once we got our HVX, although I still cut long form stuff on Vegas.

Vince, I cut HVX footage on the Vegas timeline all the time using RayLight by dvfilm.com. Drag&drop the native files or transcode them with the RayLight tool as needed.

best,

Michael

Jim Brennan

06-15-2008, 12:49 PM

Just wondering if there were any updates on Vegas workflow.

I'm a FCP guy, but this next project will be cut on Vegas. My job is to take the R3D files and give him the best quality files I can for an online edit. I'm not sure if there are any new supports that weren't mentioned since the last post in this thread.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso

07-17-2008, 11:58 AM

You can render QT uncompressed 8bits, or aja 10bits RGB. VEgas will ingest both.

jackstreetdemon

07-21-2008, 07:40 PM

You can render QT uncompressed 8bits, or aja 10bits RGB. VEgas will ingest both.

Sorry for the ignorance. I'm a Vegas users who hasn't taken delivery of my camera yet. Does the camera render QT uncompressed 8 bits or 10 bit RGB or is another piece of software needed? Thanks!

jbeale

07-21-2008, 07:45 PM

The camera writes Redcode R3D files and quicktime proxy files (very small, basically just header info), that is all. Any rendering to other compressed or uncompressed formats would have to be done on a separate computer using software such as Red Alert or Redcine.

killfilm

07-31-2008, 05:37 AM

i thought i would liven up this thread again, now that there's an SDK and Adobe support is next week, i believe there will be a solution. Although vegas only supports up 2048 by 2048 for now. Editing 2k files or lesser should be possible

Joe Carney

07-31-2008, 09:08 AM

Trying ask SonyVegas about upcoming features is like trying to teach a pig
to sing. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.

jbeale

07-31-2008, 09:27 AM

Vegas does (did) have their own SDK to provide for 3rd-party plugins.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/dl/dl.aspx?dwnid=47

Unfortunately, it dates back to 2003 (!) and lacks important features. In particular, it does not support the 32-bit mode in Vegas 8. The only other option is 8 bit video. There is a more-current scripting SDK but it does not give any access to the framebuffer which would be needed to write any external codecs for Vegas.

I wrote to SCS last year and expressed the need for an updated SDK. They said they appreciated my feedback. Take that for what it's worth.

LawrenceDinkins

07-31-2008, 04:36 PM

Sony Vegas Pro is rumored to be working on 4K compatibility in their next version.
That makes me wonder: Is Sony secretly planning a 4K version of F35 in the near future?

jbeale

07-31-2008, 04:58 PM

Anyone's guess, I suppose. I do know that Sony Creative Software and the Sony camera divisions are separate, and from what I've seen they don't seem to talk much to each other.

Joe Carney

08-01-2008, 10:14 AM

they do occasionally talk to each other, especially when the PMW EX1 came out.

KStephens

08-04-2008, 01:18 PM

Vegas does (did) have their own SDK to provide for 3rd-party plugins.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/dl/dl.aspx?dwnid=47

Unfortunately, it dates back to 2003 (!) and lacks important features.

This SDK is for developing DirectX video filters. It's not for writing CoDec/File import plug-ins. Also, it was updated in 2006, not 2003.

Anyway, with the Red SDK release, hopefully we will soon see some kind of support for Vegas. I have used it several times and it is usually fast and efficient for editing, even though the newer version seems to be a bit slower at start-up.

Joe Carney

08-05-2008, 08:56 AM

SonyVegas does have an SDK for doing more than DirectX filters, but it's beta and they are discouraging using it until the new 64bit version comes out this fall. The DirectX sdk has bascally been replaced with the .net based scripting interface. Still it would be nice if they supported DX9 and newer.

Elizabeth Lowrey

08-27-2008, 04:09 PM

Joe Carney

08-28-2008, 09:09 AM

Anyone here tried the latest Cineform tools with Vegas 8 yet? Is there still an 8-bit color limit and, if so, does anyone know if the upcoming Vegas update (supposedly due in September) will support Cineform's 12 bit color? (And, oh by the way, what's the use in having supposed 32-bit float point precision internally if you can't ingest files greater than 8-bit? Still trying to figure that out since 32 bit color was trumpeted with the release of Vegas 8.)

I'm in the middle of a project (still using Vegas 7) and don't want to update and download the Cineform trial until I have sufficient time to play with it, but I'm very curious as to the impressions of those using this combo. Will be getting my camera probably in late October, so I'll need to make a decision on sticking with Vegas or moving to Premiere soon.

Vegas supports 10bit 4:2:2 avi files (based on the AJA developed codec) as their native format. Outside of that, they still do not support DirectShow or QT video > 8bit. Neo works, but only at 8bit 4:4:4 for now. If you can find AJAs' codecs for the Xena boards, download and install them, then you can render directly to them and use the avi in Vegas. But, they are very large.
I'm hoping the new express features of Cineform overcome this limitation.
At this point, it's useless to speculate what Vegas will or won't support with the upcoming release. I'm sure features are frozen at this point.

Cineforms' Express options actually have me interested in pulling in video to AcidPro for mixing soundtracks (up to 5.1). Both Vegas and AcidPro will output Broadcast wave files for other programs to use.
For stuff like that, 8bit is more than enough for now.

Thommes Ulfeng

09-14-2008, 11:31 AM

Anybody know of any substantial changes versus Vegas in the last VPro8.0c VPro8.1 versions? Thanks.
Thommes

Joe Carney

09-14-2008, 04:05 PM

Anybody know of any substantial changes versus Vegas in the last VPro8.0c VPro8.1 versions? Thanks.
Thommes

8.1 is 64bit, requires 64bit OS.

donatello b

09-14-2008, 10:07 PM

"what's the use in having supposed 32-bit float point precision internally if you can't ingest files greater than 8-bit?"

don't know the technical stuff - can only mention my test results ...
when you have certain clips that are a bit dark ( and you lighten them) or you do heavy CC the 32bit looks much better - many times it's the difference between banding and no banding ....
i use 2k 8 bit cineform.mov clips in Vegas (red 4k clips rendered out of FCP) and i have no objections to the 8 bit them when final out is 1080 blu ray ...
every now & then i'll have a clip that needs heavy CC or i need to lighten 1-2stops - for those i go back to the 4k r3d and CC then render back to 2k with new CC = solves the problem ... i would prefer 10 bit but have no problem with the 8bit for HDTV or blu ray disc...

GlennChan

09-15-2008, 12:29 AM

Unfortunately, it dates back to 2003 (!) and lacks important features. In particular, it does not support the 32-bit mode in Vegas 8.
You can ask SCS for this information... I did and got a reply. If you need help with this, you could ask Matthew Chaboud and he'd be the person to talk you (or he could point you to the right person). I could help you get in contact with him if need be.

(On a sidenote: Aargh... writing some Vegas plugins is on my to-do list.)

an updated SDK.
Well they have to figure out if it's worth the return time + money spent doing that. They'd also have to figure out if people would write plugins using the updated plugin architecture. e.g. you see Magic Bullet (the new version) having a Vegas-compatible version last.

That being said, there are some new features of Vegas that appeared that I don't get (e.g. features which Vegas users on the SCS forum didn't really ask for).

- It may be better to request what you're REALLY after. e.g. could you please update the SDK so that 3rd party vendors can build a good image stabilization plugin, or a noise reduction plugin (without the current workarounds).

Personally I think they should just implement a 1-point motion tracker with good control of panning the image around. These features are in AE and they work fast and pretty darn well. Optical flow approaches are a waste of time IMO (e.g. Smoothcam). Anyways I digress..

even though the newer version seems to be a bit slower at start-up.
Try disabling the media manager if you don't use it.
(I never got into it since I don't deal with large stock footage / music / image libraries, which is what it is good at.)

"what's the use in having supposed 32-bit float point precision internally if you can't ingest files greater than 8-bit?"
You can do things like linear light processing.
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/vegas/linlight/linlight.htm

Joe Carney

09-15-2008, 07:47 AM

Glenn, they still use VFW, even in the 64bit version. Still no support for DirectShow. Maybe the upcoming SDK will allow for something better, at least I hope so. But DX10 support would be cool too. Import and take advantage of DPX and full support for OpenEXR would be nice. R3d support would be probably asking too much. There is so much that is great about Vegas, it's just so many continuing issues that never seem to get addressed.

Peter Moretti

09-19-2008, 05:02 AM

...
Personally I think they should just implement a 1-point motion tracker with good control of panning the image around. These features are in AE and they work fast and pretty darn well. Optical flow approaches are a waste of time IMO (e.g. Smoothcam). Anyways I digress..
...

Glenn, perhaps some of the offerings from Boris could help with this?

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso

09-19-2008, 08:33 AM

Joe Carney

09-22-2008, 08:28 AM

I spoke with a Sony representative at IBC abot +8bits I/O in VEgas. He told me they are working on that but that their priority is to be able to run VEgas at 64bits OS.
So i guess we´ll have to wait for VEgas 9.0...

They have native support for 10bit 4:2:2 via an AJA derived codec, but no third party stuff as of yet. drat.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso

09-30-2008, 05:47 AM

You could capture and print a 10bit signal with an AJA card (still this needs to be proven, but i haven´t figured out yet how to measure a real -non interpolated- bit depth in a SDI output), but no I/O files beyond 8bit limit.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso

09-30-2008, 05:49 AM

BTW i´m so happy now that the KONA LHe card can be used in XP using bootcamp by installing the Xena drivers.
No more QT gamma issues. It works with premiere and Vegas. As well as FCP and AE in Mac mode. This is a great development since you can now have all workflow solutions under ONLY 1 machine.

Omega Times Productions

10-02-2008, 05:05 PM

With the 64 bit 8.1 Vegas and .r3d It looks like a great combo. I have used Vegas since the days of my youth. Well maybe not youth, but it never crashed and I got my television productions done in a breeze. Sony has a bit more to do with 8.1 being as stable as the 32 bit 8.0. If I can find a good workflow into Vegas I am putting a deposit on the RED Camera. But I am still looking for a good stable workflow. Should I take the chance that it will come?

Joe Carney

10-16-2008, 10:53 AM

They are still working on releasing their file sdk. I'm hoping the talks between them and cineform work out too (full 10bit/4K support). With cineform, you would have not only RED, but lots of other cameras supported.

Vegas will read and write standard FOURCC/v210 packed video (10-bit 4:2:2 YCrCb) avi files according to emails I exchanged with them. But you are talking very large file sizes for 1080p editing.

You can go to http://fourcc.org to get more info. Click on the yuv option then v210. There are also links to other sites for downloading various codecs.