Lens Query

[James T Mather]

The dilemma is this - I have been offered a set of Zeiss T2.1 lenses - MK2 - a good price in optically good condition - there are several contenders.

Should I buy prior to using the camera or wait (and risk losing them) for announcements and tests with the camera itself?

Any thoughts? Suggestions? recipes?

[PaulClements]

If they are good quality and cheaper than the going rate then they'll be a good buy. Ironically top notch lenses will probably outlast the camera as long as they are kept well, so I wouldn't worry about whether to buy before or after. I'd just worry about the price and quality.

[Zack Birlew]

Depending on the price, I'd go for it. You wouldn't want to spend too much on the lenses just in case, but that depends on you and your budget.

As far as surprises go, I'm not sure what there could be unless they do announce even more lenses at even cheaper prices than the 300mm and zoom.

Recently I bought a bunch of old American Cinematographer back issues ranging from 1979 to 2005 and they mentioned MK2 lenses somewhere in there. From what I had read, there was a lot of good things to say. So if they are in good condition, there's another incentive to go for it.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I would wait, you have no way of knowing if they are suitable for a RED. They don't work with a P&S adapter so there is a good reason to assume they may vignette with a red too.

Stephen

[Andrew Benz]

In addition to Stephens' comment the mantra has been drilled into my head by TV Engineers, Producers and DP's--- "Do not buy anything 3 or 4 months before NAB-rent if you need it." Invariably you will kick yourself in the ass unless you have a massive deal in your hands, but Stephens' above comment would preclude that and he has been doing this alot longer than me. Good luck jtm-- though I feel RED will come out with a set of RED branded primes. Jim will not produce anything that would not be spot on for use with the RED1 and also in terms of the price/performance ratio.

[Mick van Rossum, NSC]

Sorry Stephen, I have to disagree with you here; I own a set of Mk2's myself (bought them from Zeiss new 4 years ago, new, when they were selling them out) and though they do vignet with the pro35 (in fact only the 28 and 32 are unusable, the 24 and 16 have a slight vignet, and the from the 40 on they are fine) the vignetting has to do with the optical contruction of the Pro35 adapter in combination with the narrower construction of the 2.1 series. I used them lately on a super35 3 perf commercial shoot, and there is no vignetting noticable (the 32 if you look really carefully, but that is also the oldest lens type of them all). So I think it is to early to say that the vignetting occuring on pro35 might also occur on the RED. However , as an advice ; some lenses will perform better on the RED than others, and we will only know when the camera is out.
Just my 2cents....

Mick van Rossum NSC
Amsterdam

[Stephen Williams]

Sorry Stephen, I have to disagree with you here; I own a set of Mk2's myself (bought them from Zeiss new 4 years ago, new, when they were selling them out) and though they do vignet with the pro35 (in fact only the 28 and 32 are unusable, the 24 and 16 have a slight vignet, and the from the 40 on they are fine) the vignetting has to do with the optical contruction of the Pro35 adapter in combination with the narrower construction of the 2.1 series. I used them lately on a super35 3 perf commercial shoot, and there is no vignetting noticable (the 32 if you look really carefully, but that is also the oldest lens type of them all). So I think it is to early to say that the vignetting occuring on pro35 might also occur on the RED. However , as an advice ; some lenses will perform better on the RED than others, and we will only know when the camera is out.
Just my 2cents....

Mick van Rossum NSC
Amsterdam


Hi,

With all due respect they work perfectly on film because that is what they were designed for.

The rays of light are not perfectly collimated, that is why they vignette on a P+S adapter. I am sure they will also vignette on a RED, the market price will then fall to half.

Just ma opinion, ignore me if you have money to burn.

Stephen

[Billy Summers]

You know why I never smoke with other DP's?:sarcasm:

It takes em' too long to light the joint!:help:

[donatello b]

are the cooke S4 designed for FILM or digital sensor ?
are panavision lens designed for film or digital sensor ?
does anybody know what's being used on these new 35mm size sensor digital camera's ?

seems panavision recommends their film lenses .. Arri recommends zeiss film lenses for D20 ...
could be that lenses designed for a sensor could be the BEST ?...
the standard zeiss T2.1 have been used in many films and they will continue to be used in future - they may not be the "best" today .. they will produce a excellent image ... i've used the T2.1 on film projects and i like them..

i do see that Elite lenses has a separate set of lenses for "digital cinema" along with their 35mm, 16mm, HD lenses sets ..

we can ask all these questions to RED and lenses manufacturers at NAB ..
i'm holding back on buying lenses till after NAB ....

[Stephen Williams]

are the cooke S4 designed for FILM or digital sensor ?
are panavision lens designed for film or digital sensor ?
does anybody know what's being used on these new 35mm size sensor digital camera's ?

seems panavision recommends their film lenses .. Arri recommends zeiss film lenses for D20 ...
could be that lenses designed for a sensor could be the BEST ?...
the standard zeiss T2.1 have been used in many films and they will continue to be used in future - they may not be the "best" today .. they will produce a excellent image ... i've used the T2.1 on film projects and i like them..

i do see that Elite lenses has a separate set of lenses for "digital cinema" along with their 35mm, 16mm, HD lenses sets ..

we can ask all these questions to RED and lenses manufacturers at NAB ..
i'm holding back on buying lenses till after NAB ....


Hi,

Cooke S4's are designed for film. They are of recent design and were possibly the best lenses in the world until the Zeiss Master Primes were released. They are so perfect, clearly Arri would recomend them! I don't think they will recomend you to use the Standards instead!

Some Panavision lenses look great on a Genisis, others less good!

The 2.1 Zeiss Standard Primes are fantastic lenses for film use, film does not care that the light does not land flat on the film perfectly collimated. The P+S technik adapter shows up this issue.

I could just say they will work, some people will be happy with the results, others will bluff it out because they own a set.

Stephen

EDIT:
The reason they vignette on a P+S is the exit pupil is very small, unlike the Zeiss Superspeeds.

FWIW the Nikon 18-70 that came with my D70 Vignettes like hell @ 18mm and wide open, that lens was designed for digital. Good enough for many reporters who write camera tests.

[Poi Boy]

I'd say wait till NAB unless you are buying inexpensive still lenses.
-A

[James T Mather]

Two last thoughts before I commit/ or not:

1. - Since the Red predominantly has a 35mm sensor as opposed to S35 (unless you want to go down the hugely unweildy RAW route - which I don't unless it is greatly simplified) - then what does it matter that the lenses may vignette a bit on S35? It won't effect your image - right or wrong?

2. - I hear the Zeiss t2.1's have a long back element and have trouble fitting on Old ARRI3 mk 2s (they press against the mirror or something) - what are the chances that this will happen with RedOne - making them unusable?

[Evin Grant]

Red has no mirrior, so no problem.

[Andrew M.]

UNVERIFIED
Flange to Misterium CMOS surface should be 52mm
Then there is cover glass probably .8 to 1mm thick and it is suspended .8 to 1mm above the CMOS surface. So subtract 2 mm
If there is less then 25mm distance from the CMOS surface to the back element of the lenses then I don’t think you can use it.

[James T Mather]

Great info! - Thanks a million Evin -

so, in the final analysis, you're saying that the max LENS depth from the back of the PL mount to the back element of the lens should be no deeper than

52mm - 27mm (Have I got this right?) = 25mm - and would probably need some additional clearance no? so 23mm would be around max?

Or have I got it all bass-ackwards?

Thanks a million for the feedback guys. Much appreciated.

[Andrew M.]

Great info! - Thanks a million Evin -

so, in the final analysis, you're saying that the max LENS depth from the back of the PL mount to the back element of the lens should be no deeper than

52mm - 27mm (Have I got this right?) = 25mm - and would probably need some additional clearance no? so 23mm would be around max?

Or have I got it all bass-ackwards?

Thanks a million for the feedback guys. Much appreciated.

Look here at the drawing on the page 14
http://www.arri.de/infodown/cam/broch/up_8r.pdf
You need about 23mm air space.

[Stephen Williams]

Look here at the drawing on the page 14
http://www.arri.de/infodown/cam/broch/up_8r.pdf
You need about 23mm air space.

Hi,

Only 13mm air space needed in the middle of the lens! Some lenses like the 16mm Zeiss go back a long way!

Stephen

[Andrew M.]

Hi,

Only 13mm air space needed in the middle of the lens! Some lenses like the 16mm Zeiss go back a long way!

Stephen
You don't want to shoot in to the sensor at more then 45deg at the corner.
Especially if you have 1mm or so glass, 1mm above it.
For 16 mm frame though you can go lower since the width of the window on the sensor that you will be using is smaller.
All depends from the back focal length or how they call it? Nodal point?
This is where beam of light coming out of the lenses has its pivotal point.
This beam you don’t want to shoot in to the sensor at sharp angles.
CMOS is not a film, may give you funny effect if you go to low.
But all have to be tried out, if lenses are designed for film then you have to try it on CMOS if you are too close to the CMOS surface with it.