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Jan Reiff
08-07-2014, 01:38 AM
i did lot of tests last weeks with the DEB Beta, now i can release some stuff

i think the images speak their own language, ...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hdwavlwn3v6b9hr/AACt2ZLzYA9Fd1ybM6ZgHkjTa?n=42023043

you see the heavy impact of DEB and what is possible with the new OLPF

in the frame with street the sky is pushed from complete dark - of course there is noise - but putting the curve a bit down will bring useable stuff even at ISO5000, as i prefer more some fine grain as too much NR like in this example

now, with the Low Light OLPF in line, the tools from DEB to ADD, everything is possible. More than every other camera package can deliver out there -

high resolution
DR at its best (donīt forget HDR, just one stop more, not visible in motion but raises up footage to 15-16 DR actually)
colors
high ISO if needed
small box

canīt name a better choice of cinema camera at the moment honestly.

David Battistella
08-07-2014, 01:44 AM
Have to agree with what you found Jan... but I want to shoot at 12800ISO because my scene is with actors lit by only the stars...and dragon is noisy :)

but seriously just to add.

anamorphic camera.
single or double system
high speed camera
Noticed even a 4K 4x3 mode now *(love that format)

Gunleik Groven
08-07-2014, 01:51 AM
Niceone

Jan Reiff
08-07-2014, 02:00 AM
Have to agree with what you found Jan... but I want to shoot at 12800ISO because my scene is with actors lit by only the stars...and dragon is noisy :)

yes, DEB gives you better results overall and there is no disadvantage in rendering time - but for me ISO1000+ will be very rare, still. but good to know, itīs possible and MUCH better than MX or ...
i think, now with DEB and when the OLPF modul is in store, a lot of people here will sleep better now ;-)
as usual, a great feedback from RED from the first "critics" to now, huge improvements and even more to come. i really like how relaxed RED always stay in such storms ...

David Battistella
08-07-2014, 02:24 AM
yes, DEB gives you better results overall and there is no disadvantage in rendering time - but for me ISO1000+ will be very rare, still. but good to know, itīs possible and MUCH better than MX or ...
i think, now with DEB and when the OLPF modul is in store, a lot of people here will sleep better now ;-)
as usual, a great feedback from RED from the first "critics" to now, huge improvements and even more to come. i really like how relaxed RED always stay in such storms ...

Again here, I agree. Since day one everything with RED is an evolving process. That can be comforting or "panic making" depending on how you want to look at it. I think your samples have put people at ease. I do think it is important to show images rather than just pixel peep and criticize.

For me, I just want to know how this new camera tool is going to handle the exposure situations I throw at it, then for me to understand how I change accordingly. I don't expect the camera to morph into every possible situation I encounter. But RED ticks off so many boxes as a production system I still am left scratching my head at what this camera can do and how often the answer is YES when I ask it to do something. :)

Battistella

Jan Reiff
08-07-2014, 02:33 AM
Agreed. for me this subject of red sparkles is closed now - it was not an issue for my work - but of course - this was a great achievement of the whole reduser forum to even improve all for everyone - Dragon user should get good stuff right now, and when the OLPF options are there, just more tools are in the package, going to higher shutter at night for slowmotion for example. i am sure, end of the year we will see tons of great footage when all the tests come to an end and the real life stuff finally starts ... this was, for sure, my last post with 200% crops at ISO12800 ;-)

Ivan Kovax
08-07-2014, 02:42 AM
i did lot of tests last weeks with the DEB Beta, now i can release some stuff

i think the images speak their own language, ...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hdwavlwn3v6b9hr/AACt2ZLzYA9Fd1ybM6ZgHkjTa?n=42023043

you see the heavy impact of DEB and what is possible with the new OLPF

in the frame with street the sky is pushed from complete dark - of course there is noise - but putting the curve a bit down will bring useable stuff even at ISO5000, as i prefer more some fine grain as too much NR like in this example

now, with the Low Light OLPF in line, the tools from DEB to ADD, everything is possible. More than every other camera package can deliver out there -

high resolution
DR at its best (donīt forget HDR, just one stop more, not visible in motion but raises up footage to 15-16 DR actually)
colors
high ISO if needed
small box

canīt name a better choice of cinema camera at the moment honestly.

Is there any difference in rendering time at all?

Jan Reiff
08-07-2014, 02:49 AM
Is there any difference in rendering time at all?

not really - the clip with the street was rendering out 32sec with DEB and around 31- 32sec without, stopped with hand, i would say itīs the same ...

Brett Harrison
08-07-2014, 02:59 AM
A very nice image character to that fully processed road shot.

Ivan Kovax
08-07-2014, 03:28 AM
not really - the clip with the street was rendering out 32sec with DEB and around 31- 32sec without, stopped with hand, i would say itīs the same ...

That's nuts. Great.

Nawaf Alsabhan
08-07-2014, 08:49 AM
i did lot of tests last weeks with the DEB Beta, now i can release some stuff

i think the images speak their own language, ...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hdwavlwn3v6b9hr/AACt2ZLzYA9Fd1ybM6ZgHkjTa?n=42023043

you see the heavy impact of DEB and what is possible with the new OLPF

in the frame with street the sky is pushed from complete dark - of course there is noise - but putting the curve a bit down will bring useable stuff even at ISO5000, as i prefer more some fine grain as too much NR like in this example

now, with the Low Light OLPF in line, the tools from DEB to ADD, everything is possible. More than every other camera package can deliver out there -

high resolution
DR at its best (donīt forget HDR, just one stop more, not visible in motion but raises up footage to 15-16 DR actually)
colors
high ISO if needed
small box

canīt name a better choice of cinema camera at the moment honestly.

Thanks, DEB looks like it's doing a lot!

Juan D Salazar
08-07-2014, 09:41 AM
Great stuff man, very surprised how much it manages to clean up that noise. Thnx for sharing ;)

Med D
09-19-2014, 03:37 PM
Is DEB just a meta setting within RCX? If not, then what steps are needed in order to bake DEB into a clip? Right now all I use RCX for is to tweak metadata -- no rendering. All edits and renders are in PP. Just wondering what steps are added -- if any -- to make DEB accessible to my clips once they are out of RCX.

Bob Gundu
09-19-2014, 04:02 PM
Is DEB just a meta setting within RCX? If not, then what steps are needed in order to bake DEB into a clip? Right now all I use RCX for is to tweak metadata -- no rendering. All edits and renders are in PP. Just wondering what steps are added -- if any -- to make DEB accessible to my clips once they are out of RCX.

Once the updated SDK is available, you'll have access to those features in other software. No ETA on that yet.

Med D
09-19-2014, 04:20 PM
Once the updated SDK is available, you'll have access to those features in other software. No ETA on that yet.

So for a workflow that only includes meta touch-up in RCX and then on to Premiere, there is currently no way to access DEB? I guess what I am asking is how are people currently accessing it within a workflow?

Bob Gundu
09-19-2014, 04:47 PM
So for a workflow that only includes meta touch-up in RCX and then on to Premiere, there is currently no way to access DEB? I guess what I am asking is how are people currently accessing it within a workflow?

If you want to use DEB, your only option right now is to render out of RCX.

Anthony Vitale
09-19-2014, 07:07 PM
Thanks for doing these comparisons.

Owen Rennie
09-20-2014, 02:18 AM
If you want to use DEB, your only option right now is to render out of RCX.

So if I'm editing in Premier, and I select "edit original" and apply DEB in RCX, then apply that to my footage in premier.. has my footage being "Debbed"?? Sorry for the probably dumb question

Bob Gundu
09-20-2014, 04:56 AM
So if I'm editing in Premier, and I select "edit original" and apply DEB in RCX, then apply that to my footage in premier.. has my footage being "Debbed"?? Sorry for the probably dumb question

At this time it won't work.

Owen Rennie
09-20-2014, 06:54 AM
At this time it won't work.

Thanks Bob

Frank Hague
10-01-2014, 09:57 PM
I think I'm doing something wrong because when I exported some recent clips at 1600 iso and compared them with and without the DEB box checked I could not really tell the difference, yet these two comparisons look awesomely different. Anybody know what I could be doing wrong?

Robert Ruffo New
10-01-2014, 11:07 PM
I think I'm doing something wrong because when I exported some recent clips at 1600 iso and compared them with and without the DEB box checked I could not really tell the difference, yet these two comparisons look awesomely different. Anybody know what I could be doing wrong?

Deb shows its effect most when there is lots noise to begin with. It has no effect on MX footage (it just isn't made for that) only Dragon.

David Battistella
10-01-2014, 11:21 PM
I think I'm doing something wrong because when I exported some recent clips at 1600 iso and compared them with and without the DEB box checked I could not really tell the difference, yet these two comparisons look awesomely different. Anybody know what I could be doing wrong?

The debayer has to be set to full or half Rez premium in order for deb to have an effect on it. If you make a 1/4 Rez debayer, then you will not see the rendered effects of DEB.

Battistella

Frank Hague
10-02-2014, 12:11 AM
The debayer has to be set to full or half Rez premium in order for deb to have an effect on it. If you make a 1/4 Rez debayer, then you will not see the rendered effects of DEB.

Battistella

Thanks for your help, David. I actually exported the sample clips to 1080p though and that's where I could barely tell the difference. Does the playback resolution for the redcine monitor have an effect on my export?

Phil Holland
10-02-2014, 12:13 AM
Thanks for your help, David. I actually exported the sample clips to 1080p though and that's where I could barely tell the difference. Does the playback resolution for the redcine monitor have an effect on my export?

Nope, that won't have an effect on export.

A fun thing you can do is make a "Still Snapshot" and jump into Full Debayer and view it at 100%. Toggle D.E.B. on and off and you will be able to see the difference. Or just export a couple still snapshots and toggle between the two.

At 1080p, especially if your source material is 6K, it might be tricky to see fully. At 4K however you can see it.

David Battistella
10-02-2014, 12:17 AM
Thanks for your help, David. I actually exported the sample clips to 1080p though and that's where I could barely tell the difference. Does the playback resolution for the redcine monitor have an effect on my export?


Phil is correct. remember 1080P is technically 1/4 res and in the case of Dragon footage less than 1/4 res. For any 1080P finish you would be less likely needing to engage DEB (depends on the footage and situation of course) For a 4K finish DEB is your friend.

Just double check also that your export preset is set to FULL debayer or 1/2 res premium debayer.

Cheers,
Battistella

Frank Hague
10-02-2014, 12:37 AM
Nope, that won't have an effect on export.

A fun thing you can do is make a "Still Snapshot" and jump into Full Debayer and view it at 100%. Toggle D.E.B. on and off and you will be able to see the difference. Or just export a couple still snapshots and toggle between the two.

At 1080p, especially if your source material is 6K, it might be tricky to see fully. At 4K however you can see it.


Phil is correct. remember 1080P is technically 1/4 res and in the case of Dragon footage less than 1/4 res. For any 1080P finish you would be less likely needing to engage DEB (depends on the footage and situation of course) For a 4K finish DEB is your friend.

Just double check also that your export preset is set to FULL debayer or 1/2 res premium debayer.

Cheers,
Battistella

Does this mean that DEB is only applicable to stills then? (considering 99% of everything we shoot is viewed in 1080 at best)

I just can't wrap my head around how good these shots look in this thread in comparison to mine even at 1600

David Battistella
10-02-2014, 12:42 AM
I think stills at 100% crop is the best way to see what is going on. You will see the effect of it less when you are scrunching all of those pixels down into a 1080 frame.

DEB has it's place and on material it is really needed you will see the effects in 1080. You see it much more when pixel peeping than when you are looking at full frames. It's really only affecting and correcting specific parts of the image.

Battistella

Phil Holland
10-02-2014, 12:47 AM
Does this mean that DEB is only applicable to stills then? (considering 99% of everything we shoot is viewed in 1080 at best)

I just can't wrap my head around how good these shots look in this thread in comparison to mine even at 1600

What David said.

Also, some of us (me) don't work in 1080p and haven't for a long, long time :)

If you have an .R3D to talk a look at I can scope out one of your shots. Just an .R3D snapshot.

Nearly everybody I see having difficulty with real deep noise is due to their shots being fairly underexposed and attempting to lift it up in post.

Gunleik Groven
10-02-2014, 12:52 AM
Point is basically that you need "exposure" even at 6400 ISO

And if the camera isn't heated up to blackshade temp, you'll have nasties happening all over.

Is that in the metadata somewhere BTW (the blackshade temp and if the cam was within range) ?

Robert Ruffo New
10-02-2014, 02:39 AM
What David said.

Also, some of us (me) don't work in 1080p and haven't for a long, long time :)

If you have an .R3D to talk a look at I can scope out one of your shots. Just an .R3D snapshot.

Nearly everybody I see having difficulty with real deep noise is due to their shots being fairly underexposed and attempting to lift it up in post.

Those of us who work in advertising work exclusively in 1080p. The two features I shot were mastered in 2K (off 5K R3Ds). What kind of jobs are you doing exactly? They sound cool!

Frank Hague
10-02-2014, 09:07 AM
What David said.

Also, some of us (me) don't work in 1080p and haven't for a long, long time :)

If you have an .R3D to talk a look at I can scope out one of your shots. Just an .R3D snapshot.

Nearly everybody I see having difficulty with real deep noise is due to their shots being fairly underexposed and attempting to lift it up in post.

This is the one I tested from a recent Santana music video I shot, with the DEB and without:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r0g1gqyema4luwe/AAArsrbcRqgFac7iTINR92Gba?dl=0

David Battistella
10-02-2014, 09:54 AM
Just taking a quick peek.

at 1600ISO it looks to me by the histogram that the shot is about 2 stops underexposed.
The shutter was at 144.4 Degrees, at 1/60 of a second when shooting 23.98 so you lost a bit of light there as well. If it had been at 1/48th 180 then maybe you would have been able to squeeze a bit more out of the shot. 10:1 compression might be biting you a bit here as well.

To process this shot you have to really push it to 3200 ISO, this means one would have to push a 2 stops under image one stop as a baseline grading point. Still remarkable the texture is not that bad.

The DEB correction mostly shows up in the shadow area's of "the man" on in left frame, but it does a pretty nice job in those lighting conditions.

http://www.f8films.com/stills/little_test.jpg

Frank Hague
10-02-2014, 06:54 PM
Just taking a quick peek.

at 1600ISO it looks to me by the histogram that the shot is about 2 stops underexposed.
The shutter was at 144.4 Degrees, at 1/60 of a second when shooting 23.98 so you lost a bit of light there as well. If it had been at 1/48th 180 then maybe you would have been able to squeeze a bit more out of the shot. 10:1 compression might be biting you a bit here as well.

To process this shot you have to really push it to 3200 ISO, this means one would have to push a 2 stops under image one stop as a baseline grading point. Still remarkable the texture is not that bad.

The DEB correction mostly shows up in the shadow area's of "the man" on in left frame, but it does a pretty nice job in those lighting conditions.

http://www.f8films.com/stills/little_test.jpg

I'm well aware the shot is underexposed, that was the DP's decision for whatever reason and not relevant to the question at hand because, even at your proposed two stops up of 6400, I still can't see a discernible difference between the image with and without DEB (but I admittedly don't have the best eye for these things). Here's the two images at 6400-full res: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c4uc8gyo7nb48nr/AADMBghb__qJeY76UgUS0rSLa?dl=0

Is there another step that I'm missing? How did you guys get those images at the beginning of the thread to look so clean at higher ISOs? Was there additional NR done?

Frank Hague
10-02-2014, 07:27 PM
I can definitely notice the difference here when I turned the denoise all the way up as well. Still not as dramatic a difference as the others in this thread though unfortunately, but definitely looks better. Here's at 3200 without DR and DEB and with both: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y5yhr0icv8csi41/AACPvOyQB_XxNOhlheHRy-6Da?dl=0

David Battistella
10-02-2014, 11:38 PM
I'm well aware the shot is underexposed, that was the DP's decision for whatever reason and not relevant to the question at hand because, even at your proposed two stops up of 6400, I still can't see a discernible difference between the image with and without DEB (but I admittedly don't have the best eye for these things). Here's the two images at 6400-full res: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c4uc8gyo7nb48nr/AADMBghb__qJeY76UgUS0rSLa?dl=0

Is there another step that I'm missing? How did you guys get those images at the beginning of the thread to look so clean at higher ISOs? Was there additional NR done?


Its not a dis that I mention the underexposure, it's a contributing factor and I mention it for other people reading the
thread. You have to monitor full Rez to see it. Set your monitor to 100% and click the switch, you will see a difference. Since this shot leans toward the Reds, with all the red light, you might see it less where deb was designed to clean up red channel noise that was showing up in grey or grey green or certain parts of skin tine.

With Jans examples, he is always showing post processed images which could be a combination of add export, cc and some NR to clean things up a bit. As far as I have seen man has not posted r3d's and takes great care to present his images (which every person should).

DEB acts on very specific tonal range, if you want more NR than this then you need to run it through resolve or maybe neat video.

Battistella

Phil Holland
10-03-2014, 01:44 AM
I can definitely notice the difference here when I turned the denoise all the way up as well. Still not as dramatic a difference as the others in this thread though unfortunately, but definitely looks better. Here's at 3200 without DR and DEB and with both: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y5yhr0icv8csi41/AACPvOyQB_XxNOhlheHRy-6Da?dl=0

Got home late tonight.

If you are referencing Jan's examples there are images that utilize DEB, ADD, and other Noise Reduction in there. An additional thing to note is you are looking at Jan's 6K FF versus 6K 5:4 2X ANA, which is a notable resolution difference when comparing them side by side.

I downloaded the image posted and ran DEB on it. It's doing what it's supposed to be doing. Cleaning up the slight "red speckles" across the tonal range:

http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_santanaDEB.jpg

sam karr
10-04-2014, 01:00 AM
I was playing with some footages posted by Werner Jauch comparing scarlet dragon and scarlet mx (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?117974-Any-Scarlet-Dragons-out-there/page10). And I noticed these red artifacts on the scarlet dragon image (polluting the blacks). I'm new to dragon technology, is it something already experienced? DEB has no effect.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5597/15426602702_9748b72f5a_s.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pvcnwE)scarlet dragon (https://flic.kr/p/pvcnwE)
on MX:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5597/15240184059_4740fafd96_s.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pdHVL8)scarlet mx (https://flic.kr/p/pdHVL8)

David Battistella
10-04-2014, 01:12 AM
I dunno. If you are happy, stick with what you got. I can't describe why certain modes have effects on certain shots at 100%crop compared to the past versions. They are both very solid cameras with excellent sensors. Some images are just going to come out relatively the same.

I can cut in my 4K RED ONE footage from 7 or 8 years ago without much issue. That's sort of a first in the digital era.

Sometimes I think of myself as an investor in RED and the camera is my stock in the company. I've made a lot of good stuff with their technology and I like what they have done to disrupt the industry. I like to support that. One way of supporting that is to continue on the very generous upgrade path and be part of the obsolescence obsolete model. This means that I have had FOUR different camera from RED over the years, each one better than the last, (RED ONE, REDONE MX, EPIC X, DRAGON X) without having to buy a whole new camera but paying to upgrade it and then being able to stay current and competitive in the marketplace.

I like the model.

So do I blindly go into every upgrade? No. Am I loyal? They haven't let me down yet. But admittedly I don't look around much either because I have not seen anything on par with the resolution or REDcode RAW.

Battistella





I was playing with some footages posted by Werner Jauch comparing scarlet dragon and scarlet mx (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?117974-Any-Scarlet-Dragons-out-there/page10). And I noticed these red artifacts on the scarlet dragon image (polluting the blacks). I'm new to dragon technology, is it something already experienced? DEB has no effect.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5597/15426602702_9748b72f5a_s.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pvcnwE)scarlet dragon (https://flic.kr/p/pvcnwE)
on MX:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5597/15240184059_4740fafd96_s.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pdHVL8)scarlet mx (https://flic.kr/p/pdHVL8)