PDA

View Full Version : Just Clip Those Highlights! It's Dragon Why Not?



Ryan Emanuel
08-07-2014, 06:25 PM
I feel like the Dragon is the opposite of the MX when mapping dynamic range. On MX I never worried about darks, there was so much room on the low end that the I never had clipped darks. I feel like on dragon there is so much room in the highlights and clipped highlights look pretty nice too! So much in fact that I won't worry about the high end. It was a weird transition because disregarding your high end was risky business on MX. In the test below the subject was in shadow getting a little bounce off the buildings which were getting direct sunlight. At the beginning of the first clip she gets a little bit of direct and the camera handles it beautifully then she passed by the white wall that look very passible to me. It was shot on a cp.2 hence the little bit of chromatic aberration. The specular highlights of the car in the second shot are clipped too. Look fine to me and it solves noise issues ettr. Anybody else find the same thing? Apologies for the mediocre steadicam!

http://vimeo.com/102888521

Nick Morrison
08-07-2014, 06:35 PM
I feel like the Dragon is the opposite of the MX when mapping dynamic range. On MX I never worried about darks, there was so much room on the low end that the I never had clipped darks. I feel like on dragon there is so much room in the highlights and clipped highlights look pretty nice too! So much in fact that I won't worry about the high end. It was a weird transition because disregarding your high end was risky business on MX. In the test below the subject was in shadow getting a little bounce off the buildings which were getting direct sunlight. At the beginning of the first clip she gets a little bit of direct and the camera handles it beautifully then she passed by the white wall that look very passible to me. It was shot on a cp.2 hence the little bit of chromatic aberration. The specular highlights of the car in the second shot are clipped too. Look fine to me and it solves noise issues ettr. Anybody else find the same thing? Apologies for the mediocre steadicam!

http://vimeo.com/102888521

All I got to say...is Dragon looks SICK.

Love this. Her face is FLAWLESS.

Daniel Stilling
08-07-2014, 07:51 PM
I hate to say it, but it looks overexposed to me and the white wall is not remotely passable. Even her jacket in the first shot is losing detail in this grade. Not a fan of her skin tone either. Looks to me like it's losing detail also. Having said that I wouldn't be surprised that you would be able to go in and color correct and bring down the highlights so it looks good, since there's probably some information in there still.
But the way it's presented here it doesn't look good and looks like a mistake. Sorry for my bluntness...
I just watched it one more time, just so I can make sure I'm not being unfair. No, not a good example on how the Dragon looks better, and as a matter of fact, if you have to overexpose it like this to avoid noise in the dark areas, boy, are we in trouble...

Ryan Emanuel
08-07-2014, 09:00 PM
I hate to say it, but it looks overexposed to me and the white wall is not remotely passable. Even her jacket in the first shot is losing detail in this grade. Not a fan of her skin tone either. Looks to me like it's losing detail also. Having said that I wouldn't be surprised that you would be able to go in and color correct and bring down the highlights so it looks good, since there's probably some information in there still.
But the way it's presented here it doesn't look good and looks like a mistake. Sorry for my bluntness...
I just watched it one more time, just so I can make sure I'm not being unfair. No, not a good example on how the Dragon looks better, and as a matter of fact, if you have to overexpose it like this to avoid noise in the dark areas, boy, are we in trouble...


I'm in the SF market where everybody wants creamy bright imagery. Its definitely not a mistake, but a choice. The grade was finished at 1000 ISO, you could retain plenty more detail finishing 320 ISO. However she had blemishes that would show up easily at 5k unless masked in overexposure. What I found interesting is that you could over expose skin tones to such a degree, and even when she walks into a pocket daylight of 2-3 stops up nothing clipped at 3 seconds. You can easily rate down, but I think under similar conditions on MX it would be difficult to rate up to get the same look with the direct sunlight.

David Battistella
08-07-2014, 11:59 PM
Hey Daniel,

to to be fair to everyone, could you post a sample (does not have to be your own) of what looks and feels right to you? Just so there is a reference to work from. Just because all of this is so subjective without actually seeing why you think Ryan's stuff and dragon is crappy.

Cheers,
david

Álex Montoya
08-08-2014, 01:05 AM
The point is that Dragon clips nicely, in a very filmlike manner.

David Battistella
08-08-2014, 01:08 AM
The point is that Dragon clips nicely, in a very filmlike manner.

Yup,

you can look through my posts to see how many times I have stated you need to think and expose differently and not be as fearful of highlights on dragon as you would on MX as the Dragon highlights rolloff nicely and the clipping comes later than it would on MX.

Battistella

Björn Benckert
08-08-2014, 01:21 AM
Why clip the highlights in camera the span down from stopplights is more than enough for just about any shot that has any kind of fill. So stop / ND down just under the stopplight and push to white in post with some nice 3D lut that does dynamic rounding in the high end. then you have full control and can get those "alexa glowing highlights" and beond.

David Battistella
08-08-2014, 02:13 AM
Why clip the highlights in camera the span down from stopplights is more than enough for just about any shot that has any kind of fill. So stop / ND down just under the stopplight and push to white in post with some nice 3D lut that does dynamic rounding in the high end. then you have full control and can get those "alexa glowing highlights" and beond.

Bjorn,

I should correct my statement. I was not saying to blow the stoplights, just that it feels like you can push the exposure a bit more before those stoplights come on. There is no need to clip highlights, but when you get up in that range it does not clip as quickly and the smoothness to highlights is much improved on Dragon, no?

battistella

Jan Reiff
08-08-2014, 02:51 AM
i am with Álex Montoya , i think it´s a good test showing the roll off

Björn Benckert
08-08-2014, 03:04 AM
Bjorn,

I should correct my statement. I was not saying to blow the stoplights, just that it feels like you can push the exposure a bit more before those stoplights come on. There is no need to clip highlights, but when you get up in that range it does not clip as quickly and the smoothness to highlights is much improved on Dragon, no?

battistella

Yes I know what you are saying and yes agree.

Skintones close to clipping point looks smashing: https://www.flickr.com/photos/107237384@N04/14351789185/
and yes highlight rolloff is fantastic and image at full resolution 88fps something frames looks clean as I never seen from any other camera : https://www.flickr.com/photos/107237384@N04/14871216393/in/photostream/

Really like how the white highlights roll of from the roof's of the cars etc.

Alan Maxwell
08-08-2014, 03:59 AM
Why clip the highlights in camera the span down from stopplights is more than enough for just about any shot that has any kind of fill. So stop / ND down just under the stopplight and push to white in post with some nice 3D lut that does dynamic rounding in the high end.

I concur.... good call B

David Battistella
08-08-2014, 05:23 AM
Yes I know what you are saying and yes agree.

Skintones close to clipping point looks smashing: https://www.flickr.com/photos/107237384@N04/14351789185/
and yes highlight rolloff is fantastic and image at full resolution 88fps something frames looks clean as I never seen from any other camera : https://www.flickr.com/photos/107237384@N04/14871216393/in/photostream/

Really like how the white highlights roll of from the roof's of the cars etc.

bjorn,

tell the truth. You're really on reduser to sell you new underwear line! LOL. :)

battistella

David Litchfield
08-08-2014, 05:30 AM
At 22s/23s is that magenta from the wall or is that part of the hightlight roll off?

David

charles lim yi yong
08-08-2014, 06:03 AM
I feel like the Dragon is the opposite of the MX when mapping dynamic range. On MX I never worried about darks, there was so much room on the low end that the I never had clipped darks. I feel like on dragon there is so much room in the highlights and clipped highlights look pretty nice too! So much in fact that I won't worry about the high end. It was a weird transition because disregarding your high end was risky business on MX. In the test below the subject was in shadow getting a little bounce off the buildings which were getting direct sunlight. At the beginning of the first clip she gets a little bit of direct and the camera handles it beautifully then she passed by the white wall that look very passible to me. It was shot on a cp.2 hence the little bit of chromatic aberration. The specular highlights of the car in the second shot are clipped too. Look fine to me and it solves noise issues ettr. Anybody else find the same thing? Apologies for the mediocre steadicam!

http://vimeo.com/102888521


come on brudder u can do better than that.

Daniel Stilling
08-08-2014, 06:16 AM
Hey Daniel,

to to be fair to everyone, could you post a sample (does not have to be your own) of what looks and feels right to you? Just so there is a reference to work from. Just because all of this is so subjective without actually seeing why you think Ryan's stuff and dragon is crappy.

Cheers,
david

Let me see... An example... Ahh, like, pretty much everything on TV? and movies past and present in theaters?
My point is that if I delivered overexposed pictures like that to any client, I would have some splaining to do.
And I never said the Dragon was crappy. I'm saying these pictures are a bad example of what the Dragon can do. It doesn't really show the full dynamic range, as all the stress is only on top. Does it hold highlights better than MX? no doubt. Does it clip nicer? absolutely. But give me a picture that is well balanced. If the actress has blemishes, what about some make up, or maybe a little diffusion?
This is using the tools the wrong way.

paul schefz
08-08-2014, 07:17 AM
i agree that the skin looks nice and understand why you would want it to look like this....
but daniel has a very good point: there are no darks in this clip....is her hair really that magenta/red brownish slight transition from top to the ends? are the shadows in the wall she passes really red?
i like the light tones, but i don't see the darks represented... at all...

Marc Wielage
08-09-2014, 03:18 AM
I'm in the SF market where everybody wants creamy bright imagery. Its definitely not a mistake, but a choice. The grade was finished at 1000 ISO, you could retain plenty more detail finishing 320 ISO. However she had blemishes that would show up easily at 5k unless masked in overexposure.
You can easily take care of blemishes with a) great makeup and b) great color-correction. Using both is even better.


But give me a picture that is well balanced. If the actress has blemishes, what about some make up, or maybe a little diffusion? This is using the tools the wrong way.
Yep, what Daniel said.

Jan Reiff
08-09-2014, 04:37 AM
the "Lucy" Trailer of F65 has some video-like clippings in her white shirts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVt32qoyhi0

i really like the F65, but it has a bit video character here in some parts - some can beat me - but from all cameras, a well exposed Dragon image is my fav at the moment -

David Battistella
08-09-2014, 05:48 AM
Jan,

I thought the grade on LUCY was about 1/2way to Amelie but in a videoish way not in a film way. some of the mixed source stuff was separated out a fair bit.
Can't wait to see this film. Obviously that camera can make some fantastic images!

Battistella

Lakis Amarantithis
08-09-2014, 07:39 AM
I hate to say it, but it looks overexposed to me and the white wall is not remotely passable. Even her jacket in the first shot is losing detail in this grade. Not a fan of her skin tone either. Looks to me like it's losing detail also. Having said that I wouldn't be surprised that you would be able to go in and color correct and bring down the highlights so it looks good, since there's probably some information in there still.
But the way it's presented here it doesn't look good and looks like a mistake. Sorry for my bluntness...
I just watched it one more time, just so I can make sure I'm not being unfair. No, not a good example on how the Dragon looks better, and as a matter of fact, if you have to overexpose it like this to avoid noise in the dark areas, boy, are we in trouble...

I also agree that her face is overexposed. Maybe she looks better this way. When overexposing you kill some details however that girl does not look like it needs that. I might be wrong. Like you, I also think it'll looked much better normal to a little underexposed.

Without an r3d to play I can't tell for sure.

Julio Quintana
08-09-2014, 01:52 PM
I agree with Daniel here. I'm really excited that with Dragon I no longer have to worry about a blown window, cloud, or passing white car. But this shot is way overexposed in midtones and shadows as well, which is very unnatural looking to my eye.

Julio

Tommaso Alvisi
08-10-2014, 05:14 AM
https://www.flickr.com/photos/107237384@N04/14871216393/in/photostream/

wow, @ which ISO was this frame shot (developed @200 right?)? shutter angle/speed?

Thanks Björn!

Dom Gend
08-11-2014, 03:55 AM
It looks good, is there any post done on the video?

charles lim yi yong
08-14-2014, 06:00 PM
I hate to say it, but it looks overexposed to me and the white wall is not remotely passable. Even her jacket in the first shot is losing detail in this grade. Not a fan of her skin tone either. Looks to me like it's losing detail also. Having said that I wouldn't be surprised that you would be able to go in and color correct and bring down the highlights so it looks good, since there's probably some information in there still.
But the way it's presented here it doesn't look good and looks like a mistake. Sorry for my bluntness...
I just watched it one more time, just so I can make sure I'm not being unfair. No, not a good example on how the Dragon looks better, and as a matter of fact, if you have to overexpose it like this to avoid noise in the dark areas, boy, are we in trouble...

Thx for keeping it real. We need thoughtful and critical voices here.