Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme?

[Shawn Nelson]

Okay, some days you have to break out the stupid questions…

Can someone tell me, or point me to a resource so I can read, what advantage would my post workflow have if I bought a DeckLink HD Extreme and had no interest in capturing or exporting? That is, I have no need for connecting to decks or capturing or anything. I talked to the guys at the Blackmagic booth at NAB with this question and they did a bad job explaining it. (Side Note: Was it just me, or were a lot of the booth operators at NAB extremely unknowledgeable about anything except being an audible form of the brochure?).

I dug around at the Blackmagic site and it seems that FCP would work faster in HD effects and that somehow monitoring, via their HDMI out port to a consumer monitor, is better than just going out another graphics card.

Can anyone share their thoughts about how this card would impact a workflow that involved using FCP, Color, Motion and external monitoring using a consumer 1080p 42" LCD? Much appreciation.

[Steve Sherrick]

Shawn, I just sold this card a couple of weeks ago. Would have given you a great price on it. I upgraded to Kona 3. Here is why.

1. Monitoring. Dual HD-SDI outputs, component, composite, and SVideo outs. For being able to send to client monitors, color correction monitors, etc. Sure you can get something like the Matrox which will use your DVI port on your graphics card, but the Kona is way more flexible.

2. Cards can help optimize certain codecs in terms of real time playback. For example, the Kona 3 offers Dynamic RT hardware acceleration.

3. Capture from any source and output to virtually any broadcast deck. If you do enough post production for the broadcast industry, this is a must. You don't need to own the decks (rental) but you need a way to get stuff in and out.

4. The Kona 3 offers additional functionality like up and down conversion. Take SD up res to HD and vise versa. A very flexible solution.

Also, the Kona 3 does those conversions via hardware as opposed to BM which uses software.

So, those are just a few of the benefits.

[Steve Sherrick]

Can anyone share their thoughts about how this card would impact a workflow that involved using FCP, Color, Motion and external monitoring using a consumer 1080p 42" LCD? Much appreciation.

If you are after accuracy, I would suggest avoiding this combo. Consumer TVs have filtering in their path. If budget prevents a true broadcast solution such as a Sony BVM or ECinema style LCDs, then you will need to work really hard to get that consumer tv calibrated so you can make judgements in confidence. This is the piece of the puzzle that can get really expensive. Color correction requires a calibrated high end monitoring solution, proper lighting and wall colors in your room, and experienced eyes.

But, you can give it a shot. We're all in the same boat. We have limitations to what we can afford. So we do the best we can and make it work. Whatever you do, just try to come as close as possible to geting your monitoring correct because just as a bad mix room can lead to inaccurate audio downstream, same goes with color correction.

[ThomtheEditor]

Not to kick a dead horse, but our shop has one of each (kona3 and a blackmagic breakoutbox) so that post-savy clients can request either for their capturing and output needs. Both have their advantages and disadvantages as compared to each other (the HDMI on the BM is a nice feature but hardly ever used as we monitor everything via SDI).

As someone that uses both regularly i would have to say the kona is a beter card; however the BM is def the way to go in your specific situation Shawn. If you are doing no importing or exporting and just using the card as a monitor output AND that monitor is consumer grade (i.e. highest input capable is HDMI) then yes BM is the way to go for you. If however you foresee yourself doing your own deliverables and layoffs down the line then i would save up the extra money, get a professional grade monitor and go with the kona.

[Nicholas Shields]

Great question. If you do not plan to go in/out via sdi/component/etc., then the only advantage is the addition of some realtime effects and yuv vs. rgb monitoring. If you need to go to DBeta/HDCAM/etc. on the rare occasion, it is very common to send a quicktime file via ftp or hard-drive to a dupe house. The only challenge in this circumstances is ensuring your color is where you want it. By the way, we have aja cards and they are head-and-shoulders above bm. Good luck and good shooting.

Nick.

[Steve Sherrick]

Just keep in mind that on the BM, it doesn't seem capable of converting 720P 23.98 sequences to 59.94 on output. This was a sticking point for me, as I do a lot of 720 work that is edited at 23.98. Best to edit at 59.94 with BM unless you have to edit at 23.98.

Minor point, but must make sure these cards do what you need them to do.

[Michael Hastings]

How about using intensity or intensity pro. I just bought two of these because I also want to try the two camcorder HDMI switching capability but it also seems to output a lot of things from Final cut to the HDMI consumer monitor that I have pretty nicely. And it's less than $300 - about 350 if you want analog capture and output.

I was wondering what the difference would be to go to the Extreme. Don't care that much about HD-SDI out now either. For HD-SDI output I would send the files over to my HDCAM deck owner/red owner friend rather than drag his HDCAM deck here.

Also I have a few years old Samsung CRT HiDef TV with DVI input and wondered if that would be better or worse for color grading than the $00 Sharp Aquos LCD?

Opinions?

[Steve Sherrick]

If you are just looking for HDMI output, then yes the Intensity is the ticket. The variable though is the monitor. But if you learn it, know its response, you can probably get by with a consumer tv. Try to calibrate it the best you can.

[tillHavis]

Hi Steve ! I was just wondering will the Kona 3 provides 2K output to a monitor and deck, I am in Pal land and need a card that can output 25p in 2K, 1080, 720 and SD to a monitor and deck.
Also if I did want to use a HDMI or DVI-D monitor would the Kona 3 work with the Blackmagic HD Link Pro which can provide 2K monitoring via DV-D or do Kona provide a good 2K DVI-D/HDMI option.
Thanks

[Steve Sherrick]

Hi Steve ! I was just wondering will the Kona 3 provides 2K output to a monitor and deck, I am in Pal land and need a card that can output 25p in 2K, 1080, 720 and SD to a monitor and deck.
Also if I did want to use a HDMI or DVI-D monitor would the Kona 3 work with the Blackmagic HD Link Pro which can provide 2K monitoring via DV-D or do Kona provide a good 2K DVI-D/HDMI option.
Thanks

Kona3 works with HSDL(High Speed Data link) to provide 2K to and from the card. There is a 2K crop function that allows you to work with 1080 monitors. I run into a BM HDLink to view on a DVI-D monitor and it works. I haven't tried to install the 1D LUT software yet though because initially it found a conflict with it. But as a straight converter, it works fine.

For more information on how Kona 3 handles 2K, read this.

http://www.aja.com/pdf/support/AJA_2K_whitepaper.pdf

[Gunleik Groven]

The easy answer to Shawns question, though, is that if you want (and you really want that) calibrated monitoring, you need a HD-SDI out and a calibrateable monitor.

Gunleik

[Cüneyt Kaya]

The easy answer to Shawns question, though, is that if you want (and you really want that) calibrated monitoring, you need a HD-SDI out and a calibrateable monitor.

Gunleik

what is in your opinion the best bang for the buck for this combo?

[tillHavis]

Thanks Steve the Kona seems like the way to go especially for use with existing decks and for monitoring in 2K.
Regards

[Alexis Hanawalt]

Slightly off subject: Can anyone recommend a monitoring solution (HDSDI out) when cutting on a MacBook Pro other than the AJA IO HD?

[Ross Birkbeck]

I've got a Matrox MXO with an Apple 23" and it works great - calibrated first with a spyder 2 pro and then fine tuned with the colour bars (blue only etc.). And it gives you SDI out for when you need it. Works with the macbook Pro too.

[Steve Sherrick]

I've got a Matrox MXO with an Apple 23" and it works great - calibrated first with a spyder 2 pro and then fine tuned with the colour bars (blue only etc.). And it gives you SDI out for when you need it. Works with the macbook Pro too.

A very good solution, especially if you only need monitoring. It's under $1000 too. And the calibration tools it comes with seem like they will help get your monitor looking pretty close to where you would want to be. I haven't used this setup personally but have heard favorable things.

[Alexis Hanawalt]

Why does their site say the MXO doesn't work with the MacBook Pro?

It doesn't do HD SDI out, right? Looks like the MXO 2 will...

[Steve Sherrick]

You must be looking at inputs. Both versions do HD-SDI out. And both work with notebook computers.

[Matthew Rogers]

I've got a Matrox MXO with an Apple 23" and it works great - calibrated first with a spyder 2 pro and then fine tuned with the colour bars (blue only etc.). And it gives you SDI out for when you need it. Works with the macbook Pro too.

Can anyone explain to me the differences between the different spyder products? There is the 3, 2, and express and they are each about $100 different. So why should I buy the 2 or 3 over the express?

Matthew

[Shawn Nelson]

The easy answer to Shawns question, though, is that if you want (and you really want that) calibrated monitoring, you need a HD-SDI out and a calibrateable monitor.

Gunleik

Okay then...is it possible to get a 10-bit HD-SDI calibrateable monitor for $3k?

[Steve Sherrick]

shawn best bet may be mxo with a good dvi monitor. Otherwise you are heading toward $5K or more for card plus low end hd-Sdi monitor. Proffessional monitoring is expensive no way around it but you can still do some good work with a setup like I described. As long as you know its limitations.

[Shawn Nelson]

shawn best bet may be mxo with a good dvi monitor. Otherwise you are heading toward $5K or more for card plus low end hd-Sdi monitor. Proffessional monitoring is expensive no way around it but you can still do some good work with a setup like I described. As long as you know its limitations.

How would the Panasonic LH1700W be for color correction? It can be had for $2500.

[Alexis Hanawalt]

How would the Panasonic LH1700W be for color correction? It can be had for $2500.

That's what I'm going with for field production - should be fine for post - it's all about the blue-only button and knowing how to calibrate with color bars.

[Matt Gottshalk]

I evaluated HD-SDI monitors for a while for my edit bay, and after looking at them all, I bought the JVC DT-V24L1DU 24" monitor. It is awesome. About $3400.00

[Alexis Hanawalt]

JVC makes a 17" one that goes head to head with the panasonic 17" and runs about $2300... Looked pretty good, but I ended up finding a bargain on the panasonic on eBay, so I went with that.

[Evin Grant]

The JVC monitors are beautiful! I use a multibridge extreme and have not had a problem with 720 cross converting to 1080I.

[Shawn Nelson]

I also saw Panasonic showing at NAB a new 1760 which is supposed to be a better (but same size) HD-SDI monitor as the LH1700W.

But why would a monitor be better just because it uses HD-SDI? I understand DVI not being as good because I read that DVI only handles 8bit, but HDMI can handle deep color.

[Gunleik Groven]

Thet key is the standardised signal over the HD-SDI protocol AND the calibrating of the monitor. But @ the current state of things there is IMHO a lot of mush to that soup if you're not delivering mostly to TV.

[Johan Pabon]

Matrox Announces Matrox MXO2 - Portable, Affordable, Complete I/O for the Mac sounds like a good solution...

Priced at $1,595 US in North America (£899, €1,295) not including local taxes, Matrox MXO2 will be available in July 2008 through a worldwide network of authorized dealers.

http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/mxo2/

[tillHavis]

Steve I am a little confused as to dual link and what exactly it does,
is this two physical SDI connections into a monitor for 4:4:4 10/12bit monitoring. What is the advantage of this as opposed to HDMI which, correct me if I thought can take the full 4:4:4 signal.

[Steve Sherrick]

Yes, in most instances the dual link HD-SDI is caried over two cables and does support up to 12 bit 4:4:4. It carries the video, audio, and timecode information down that pipe. HDMI (latest versions) theoretically can support similar specs, but I believe it really depends on the implementation of the device and whether they follow the specs properly. I think some devices may truncate information to 8 bit. Also, as far as I know HDMI does not transport timecode. Someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

[Matthew Rogers]

Hey Steve, here's a question for you since you had a Decklink Extreme card... Does the Decklink not do on the fly convert from 720/1080P 23.98 down to SD if you have it hooked up to a broadcast monitor? I ask because I know my Intensity Pro won't downconvert 23.98 to SD, but it will play 23.98 over the HDMI. The support at Blackmagic suggested that I look at the Extreme card because it would do the 23.98 down to SD on the fly for me.

Matthew

[Steve Sherrick]

Hey Steve, here's a question for you since you had a Decklink Extreme card... Does the Decklink not do on the fly convert from 720/1080P 23.98 down to SD if you have it hooked up to a broadcast monitor? I ask because I know my Intensity Pro won't downconvert 23.98 to SD, but it will play 23.98 over the HDMI. The support at Blackmagic suggested that I look at the Extreme card because it would do the 23.98 down to SD on the fly for me.

Matthew

In all due respect to Black Magic, they've been dodgey on this subject. In an earlier version of their driver, I was able to output a 720P 23.98 sequence to SD 29.97 without issue which was great. But in a later firmware, that no longer worked as the screen would just flash. I talked to support but they said they only supported 720P 59.94 sequences, no 24P for 720. I had a lot of 720 24P projects, so this was a problem. Also, at one point I talked with them about a particular 1080 24P setting in FCP, and they weren't even aware it existed, even though I was looking right at it in the menu. I ended up selling the card to go with Kona 3 and have been pretty happy.

Nothing against Black Magic, it just wasn't the solution for me. Maybe their new version of the card does it, or maybe they have updated their firmware to do it, but at the time I was getting nowhere with support.

[Joel Kaye]

I ask because I know my Intensity Pro won't downconvert 23.98 to SD, but it will play 23.98 over the HDMI.

My Intensity won't play 23.98 at 1080psf (FCS). I can get it to work in 720P. I asked at the blackmagic booth about it and they said it probably wouldn't support 1080P 23.98psf anytime soon. At the moment I'm planning on returning it.

So based on this thread I'm thinking about the Extreme or maybe the Matrox. Perhaps one of the Kona's. I've got HD-SDI in on my monitor so I may as well take advantage of that.

[Matthew Rogers]

Steve, is there any reason you didn't get the Kona LHe instead of the Kona 3?

Matthew

[ThomtheEditor]

Steve, is there any reason you didn't get the Kona LHe instead of the Kona 3?

Matthew

LHe won't let you do 2k or dual link captures=no 4:4:4 support

[Steve Sherrick]

Steve, is there any reason you didn't get the Kona LHe instead of the Kona 3?

Matthew

LHe is a great card too, but I did need the extra features. Also, keep in mind that the Kona 6 drivers will have support for RED specific output sizes.

http://www.aja.com/html/news_red.html

[Johan Pabon]

So what do you think of the Matrox MXO2? Seems a good alternative and cheaper too....

[Yannick Sadler]

Does the Decklink not do on the fly convert from 720/1080P 23.98 down to SD if you have it hooked up to a broadcast monitor?
Matthew


In an earlier version of their driver, I was able to output a 720P 23.98 sequence to SD 29.97 without issue which was great. But in a later firmware, that no longer worked as the screen would just flash. I talked to support but they said they only supported 720P 59.94 sequences, no 24P for 720. I had a lot of 720 24P projects, so this was a problem.


I've had a Decklink Pro for a while now and I'm able to do 720@23.98P -> SD@29.97 on the fly (1080 too). I agree that it behave oddly at times. Most of the time a shutdown (not restart) clear the gremlins. I had to remove the drivers by hand once and re-install.

The behavior is not consistent between different versions of the drivers. So my advice is to try every choice available in the FCP in the "View->Video Playback" menu (even those that dont seem to make sense) and chose the one that look best. On my setting right now, I'm outputing 720@23.98 thru the "1080p@23.98->SD" setting to get SD@29.97 ! But it works...

[Yannick Sadler]

So what do you think of the Matrox MXO2? Seems a good alternative and cheaper too....

Since the RTMac fiasco a while back ago, I'm keeping my hands far from Matrox products. I won't be caught again...

[tillHavis]

Just wondering, seeing as the Blackmagic card has 1 SDI 2K/4:4:4 connection for monitoring, does this mean you no longer need dual link Monitors; you can connect to any HD-SDI Monitor that can provide 4:4:4 colour space with a single cable.
If so then this single SDI connection might become the norm for 4:4:4 monitoring.
If so this is a definite plus for the Blackmagic card for monitoring purposes. I understand the Kona 3 is prob the best card out their at the moment quality wise but having looked at the specs it seems as if the different deck connections available are very similar to the Kona 3. If I am wrong please feel free to correct me. I believe you can capture and output in 2k via the SDI also. The one downside is HD CAM and Digi Beta decks are dual link so I suppose that rules out connection via the single DSI cable.

[Steve Sherrick]

Remember, not just about the card's I/O connections. You'll need to evaluate driver implementation, software down/up conversion(BM) vs. hardware conversion(Kona). BM makes good stuff, but it's not for everyone. Only way to know for sure is to see it in action first hand. I had to learn the hard way, but the card did get me by for a while.

[Nick Shaw]

The one downside is HD CAM and Digi Beta decks are dual link so I suppose that rules out connection via the single DSI cable.

Neither HDCam nor Digi Beta use dual link SDI. You only need that to connect to HDCam SR.

The new 3Gb/s single link standard is the way things are going, but is not yet universally adopted. For 4:4:4 monitoring you have far more options for monitors with 1.5 Gb/s dual link inputs than 3Gb/s single link, so there is not one best option.

[tillHavis]

Thanks Nick/Steve. I'm just a bit wary of spending money on the Kona 3 and finding out advances in Monitor price and configuration, say for instance the Red 4K/2K monitor or new lower priced 2K monitors decide to opt for single link or HDMI 4:4:4. I think the next revolution is going to be in Production Monitors. If Red can bring a studio/colour correction 2K/4K monitor in for 3-5K I think they will sell like hot cakes. Just my 2 cents. Just a quick question will the AJA 3GM converter solve the single link problem and allow me to use one single SDI 3Gbs 2K output to a monitor. If so then the Kona would be a better option into the future. ??

[Steve Sherrick]

There is no RED 4K monitor planned, at least not directly from RED themselves. My guess is, that if someone does deliver on one you are looking at a $10,000+ display. I could be wrong, but that would be my guess. So, unless you are planning on spending that kind of money, I would focus on a 2K/1080P display for now. Are you using 4K throughout your post production process? Or will you be going to 2K or 1080P? if the latter, I wouldn't worry too much about 4K display right now.

[Yannick Sadler]

My guess is, that if someone does deliver on one you are looking at a $10,000+ display. I could be wrong, but that would be my guess. So, unless you are planning on spending that kind of money, I would focus on a 2K/1080P display for now.

Totally agree with you on that. 4K monitoring in post right now is more a show-off thing than a good use of $$$. So unless you've got big corporate clients with egos that needs to be taken care of, i'll use that money on other stuff.

[tillHavis]

A 2K workflow including monitoring and output is what I am looking at Steve. I think the Kona is a good choice re the dual link 4:4:4 for colour correction. I can also look at the HD Link Pro for DVI-D 2K. Just one last question can the Kona output to two monitors. Say one Dual link 4:4:4 for CC and a secondary Say Dell 30' Display DVI-D (via Blackmagic HD Link Pro)

[Steve Sherrick]

It can output two HD-SDI signals but only as single link. Dual Link takes up both outputs.

Till, here is what I would do. With Kona now proving RED support on the Kona 3, I would get that card (skip the breakout box unless you really need it. So you can probably snag the card for $2500 or under). Then add a TV Logic monitor for $8500 with Dual Link HD-SDI input and true 1080P monitoring. The Kona card will allow you to crop 2K footage for output to the monitor as well. This is a great solution for just over $10K. If that number is scary, I would recommend taking a look at the Panasonic monitors or maybe a Sony Luma.

[tillHavis]

Thanks Steve! I have a Panasonic BT- LH1700W it is a good monitor and I am currently using the Blackmagic DeckLink HD Pro 4:4:4 PCIe which is a dual link model. The problem is I canott monitor or output in 2K. It will allow a 2K crop but not in 25p which I use (Pal). I am looking at selling the Blackmagic and buying the Kona 3.
I am also looking at a 2K Dual Link HD-SDI monitor but am waiting a little longer to see if competition will bring the prices down. That was one of the reasons I was looking forward to the RED monitor, but I guess that's on hold.

[Steve Sherrick]

I had the same hope about monitor prices coming down some, but unfortunately I think they will be at that price point for a little while longer. I would run the Kona 3 to your LH1700W and see if that can work for you until something comes along that fits into your budget.

[David Cox]

So what I would really like to see from either BM or AJA is monitoring support for RedAlert and RedCine.

Dave

[Steve Sherrick]

Me too!!!!

[kamil]

Anyone actually have this card yet? I know it just came out at NAB but for a grand its dual link and supports 2K. Although I see nothing there where it would support RED 2K 2:1. Can you use this new BM card with 2048x1024 footage and have it cropped on say a JVC 24 inch or the Sony Lumas?

[David Collard]

It was a good question. A lot of clutter since then. The BM extreme card with HDMI out claims to deliver the correct color space for HD broadcast standards. That's what you need to begin as a reference. Then try a good THX approved HDMI compatible consumer monitor and you might have what you need.