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laguun
04-22-2008, 04:16 PM
Different from the RS232/422 comment which seems to get pretty clear feedback ( http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11849 ,seems everyone wants it), this topic is something from the "nice, but not necessary" department.

I cant help myself, but i wonder why red wouldnt want to benefit from the blu-ray system. I would gladly pay more if red ray would be also offered with a blu-ray/Dvd player option instead of DVD.

Some reasons for this:
- blu-ray will be totally commonplace in 2009. Prices probably will reach the mid $$ space for drives by then, Hybrid bluray players/DVD recorders are already in the €€ pricerange.
- Longer playback times. For installations, museums, poi, festivals and many excellent red ray areas of use, the 50GB on a blu ray might be more fitting.
- if possible: higher datarates, therefore even better image quality.
- gossip. as bizarre it might sound, there -will- be folks who say: "I dont want a dvd, i want a blu-ray, thats HD". Never underestimate the power of morons :)
- media quality (my MAIN reason). DVD has plagued us since the beginning. Just yesterday we got two new "frisbee"-dvd from a dolby sound studio which contained bad files due to bad burning quality. blu ray was, different from the whole DVD, DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD+/-R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, DVD+/-RW, DVD-RAM mess, designed as -one- recordable media, and after using blu-ray recoders almost since their market intorduction, i yet have to burn a frisbee. The same is valid for the blu-ray basing XDCAM system. DVD-media quality and recoder-specific compatibility is, and probably will, an area of concern. I would hate to have an employee send out an "last-minute-festival" red ray disc which then stutters (or worse) as the subpar burning quality of a media/recoder incompatibility is requiring the error-correction to lower readout speeds.
- non-red customer demand. Now, almost *any* studio today has at least DVD playback. However, i still find *many* studios not supporting blu-ray. If the red ray would also work as an external player (via USB or FW) in order to avoid tricky HDCP *inside* the red ray, it would add many benefits for usual studios (and the HUGE majority of all apple customers from 2006-late 2008) as it would serve them besides the red ray function as "simple" blu-ray player.
- better revenue for red. red could easily charge several $$$ more for the blu red ray.
- probably easy R&D. If red is using, and i suppose thats a given, a regular off the shelve SATA DVD drive, a $$ blu-ray drive should basically have no, or at least no complex further R&D.

I am curious to hear what the other fellow redusers thoughts are on that topic. Finally, let me say that i think this is an less important, nice-to-have, functionality, while i consider VTR/REMOTE/RS232 an extremely important feature.

sparkhope
04-22-2008, 04:29 PM
could it have to do with licensing & sony?

laguun
04-22-2008, 04:36 PM
could it have to do with licensing & sony?

i dont think so.
pioneer, lg, liteon etc all manufacture blu-ray drives and red certainly will not design or manufacture their own dvd or blu-ray drives but buy on the world market.

Sven Seynaeve
04-22-2008, 04:42 PM
To me after some research on the blu-ray format for my own I see sony finally moving to an somewhat more openmind lately then when they've released blu-ray. They start allowing more partners to join their marketing strategy. But Still not enough manufacturing plants support the system because the future isn't sure. Some people (even their own salesmen) can't give a clear answer of what that future really will be and how long it will stand.
As we all know 4k via some kind of hd or other master won't be to far of if you really want to spend money on a great display, as with the anouncements of some 4k products it even scares some of us who really want to get the best quality possible out of a system. But indeed i suppose the reason chosen from RED by now must have something to do with their licensing as that and the encryption system seems to be very important to them to assure the blu-ray and manufacturers to keep to much piracy away for now.

Randall Nott
04-22-2008, 05:02 PM
I remember before Blu-ray and HD-DVD, WMVHD from Microsoft was supposed to be the next big thing. It was recordable onto regular DVDs but they never got together a decent authoring system for it. They were able to add it to both the Blu-ray and HD-DVD player specs, and it still exists (they even have stagnant web pages for it on Microsoft) but it just kind of sits there. Maybe they'll piggy-back it onto Red Ray next and tout it as the only universal HD format (as if RED would go for that).

Radoslav Karapetkov
04-22-2008, 05:17 PM
Or PURPLE-RAYn..

And invite Prince to bless the new tech with his purple voice.

laguun
04-22-2008, 05:45 PM
To me after some research on the blu-ray format for my own I see sony finally moving to an somewhat more openmind lately then when they've released blu-ray. They start allowing more partners to join their marketing strategy.

The Blu-ray Group has the following founding members:
Panasonic,
Pioneer,
Philips,
Sony,
Thomson,
LG Electronics,
Hitachi,
Sharp
Dell then joined in march 2004, Apple in 2005.

until today,
Marantz,
Mitsubishi,
Sharp,
Lite-On,
Funai,
JVC,
Loewe,
Denon,
Daewoo,
Samsung
also came aboard.



But Still not enough manufacturing plants support the system because the future isn't sure.
Some people (even their own salesmen) can't give a clear answer of what that future really will be and how long it will stand.

blu-ray shall (and probably will) do to DVD, what DVD did to CD.
Once the price difference is ~10-40 bucks, and thats not years, but months from now.

The prices to manufacture blu-ray drives or dvd drives will be pretty similar already in 2009, the price difference for a combo blu-ray player/dvd combo recorder to a dvd recorder is at 60-70 euros right now now.

I suppose its pretty certain that in 2009 most mid and upperclass pcs, be it with osx or win, will have bluray drives. price difference should be rather ~20-30 eurobucks by then.

I am not certain, but i suppose that when red ray will be sold, the average 500$-750$ pc will offer a blu-ray player/dvd-recorder combo.



As we all know 4k via some kind of hd or other master won't be to far of if you really want to spend money on a great display, as with the anouncements of some 4k products it even scares some of us who really want to get the best quality possible out of a system. But indeed i suppose the reason chosen from RED by now must have something to do with their licensing as that and the encryption system seems to be very important to them to assure the blu-ray and manufacturers to keep to much piracy away for now.

blu ray as media is completly open. HDCP copy protection is optional. By default, it works as a regular 25 or 50 GB media, the usual media sells 7-8 bucks here. Pretty much the same as DVD with or without CSS.

Red doesnt need to license blu-ray to sell blu-raydrives.
Everybody can buy (and resell) them, every little computer shop around the corner does that.

Radoslav Karapetkov
04-22-2008, 06:07 PM
"eurobucks" :).

25-50 Gb is a lot of space.

With proper encoding...

Michael Schrengohst
04-22-2008, 08:55 PM
It's all incremental. When you sell millions of anything,
making another buck or ten per unit is huge.
They will keep the capacity going up so that the net
cannot match it. CD is dead and DVD will be next.
The studios will now push Blu-Ray and pull back from
HD file release.

All I want to know is when will Apple get off theit iPhone
and release Blu-Ray authoring & burning.
Before NAB I got a "customer" call from Apple wondering
if I was using FCS . I said yes I was and was editing
while I was on the phone telling her yes I was.

She asked "what could Apple do to serve you better?"
I told her to tell Steve to quit blowing the guys at AT&T
and get off his iPhone long enough to tell the developers
for DVD SP to crank it out.

Because my next purchase will be the Adobe Suite,
I have the corporate dweebs now "wanting Blu-Ray".....

Radoslav Karapetkov
04-22-2008, 09:31 PM
The studios will now push Blu-Ray and pull back from HD file release.

It doesn't matter if they pull back or not. :)

They don't run the show anymore.

laguun
04-23-2008, 01:16 AM
It's all incremental. When you sell millions of anything,
making another buck or ten per unit is huge.
They will keep the capacity going up so that the net
cannot match it. CD is dead and DVD will be next.
The studios will now push Blu-Ray and pull back from
HD file release.

Because my next purchase will be the Adobe Suite,
I have the corporate dweebs now "wanting Blu-Ray".....

Adobe CS, with Premiere and Encore work nice for blu-ray. In fact you can master web (flash), tv (dvd) and blu-ray at once within encore.

Robin Balas
04-27-2008, 02:13 PM
...
- non-red customer demand. Now, almost *any* studio today has at least DVD playback. However, i still find *many* studios not supporting blu-ray. If the red ray would also work as an external player (via USB or FW) in order to avoid tricky HDCP *inside* the red ray, it would add many benefits for usual studios (and the HUGE majority of all apple customers from 2006-late 2008) as it would serve them besides the red ray function as "simple" blu-ray player.
...

I think you will find if you read up and listen to the NAB interviews, that the RED-RAY is proposed to only be the external player you refer to, nothing else. It will be able to play either RED CF's, RED drives nativly or DVD-ROM's with a red-compressed R3d movieclips/movies. It will play out via multiple HDMI or HD-SDI and you could ingest that somehow into another data carrier.
Currently it seems that the DVD-ROM format is chosen as data carrier although I think BD-ROM could just as easily have been chosen based on functionality.
But forget playing these discs, no matter what they will be in 2009, in another blue-ray player or DVD player. The Red-ray is to me 'just' a mediaplayer. And there is no support for 4K, 3K or 2K in the blue-ray spec, so forget the movie blue-ray and movie DVD in relation to Red-ray. Its just a data carrier for RED's own special compression.
All this is based on speculations so I might be totally wrong, but until I read or hear something else from the RED team, I don't see any other explanation at this time.
MHO:detective2:

Noah Kadner
04-27-2008, 02:22 PM
I'd be happy with a hard drive player with ethernet, esata and firewire 800. Not sure optical media is really 100% needed to make it work out as a distribution model. In a few years all disc media for movies/music/games etc will be supplanted by all downloads anyways. It's already there just not 100% legal in all areas. It's just a question of upping the download speeds- and with FIOS on the way to worldwide proliferation you can see the writing on the wall. :construction: :construction: :construction:

Noah

Jeff Coatney
04-27-2008, 02:50 PM
Red Ray beats Blu Ray four ways:
1. Rugged, portable, production ready form factor (I've not seen a Blu-Ray player yet that could drive a nail).
2. 1080p pipes out (just like Blu-Ray) PLUS 4K! (Blu-Ray wishes it could fill the screen in your average cineplex) and 5.1.(Beyond HD imagery looks better when it sounds great)
3. You get all the above via the DVD burner you already own. No need for specialized codecs, Blu-Ray disc burners or complex authoring schemes.
4. Optical drives have skip protection and less fragile moving parts than a hard drive. I'm sure the optical drive on the Red Ray will accept a blu-ray disc, why not? I'm sure Ken Burns would like to screen his next marathon-documentary in 4K without swapping discs.

Peter Majtan
04-27-2008, 03:49 PM
Given the current attitude of RED against SONY (and vice versa) and knowing personally the top-level SONY's VIP who actually make such a decision - I don't see SONY licensing Blu-Ray to RED in foreseeable future. And even if they did (which I doubt) - I don't see Jim accepting it...

I also believe that optical media will eventually die out (as did tape) and all will go towards solid state memory. Future generation of CF or SD cards will easily handle the capacity of a Blu-Ray disc without its size, fragility and other related issues. Not to mention the unlimited re-recording ability and scratch resistance...

Solid state memory is the future - Blu Ray is just the small evolutionary step. HD-DVD may still have its last laugh after all...

Video on demand and video for download are future-proof technologies and do not required "fixed" storage format. Just see what is happening around the world already...

laguun
04-27-2008, 04:31 PM
Given the current attitude of RED against SONY (and vice versa) and knowing personally the top-level SONY's VIP who actually make such a decision - I don't see SONY licensing Blu-Ray to RED in foreseeable future. And even if they did (which I doubt) - I don't see Jim accepting it...

Sorry, bu that is complete nonsense.
a) DVD and CD have been designed by Sony and Phillips, and you dont need a license to sell it.
b) The same is valid for blu-ray. And as with DVD and CD, there is an Association behind it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc_Association



I also believe that optical media will eventually die out (as did tape) and all will go towards solid state memory. Future generation of CF or SD cards will easily handle the capacity of a Blu-Ray disc without its size, fragility and other related issues. Not to mention the unlimited re-recording ability and scratch resistance...

Tape is the #1 media still for TV.
25 GB are at 7 bucks now on bluray, and will probably go down to less than 1 buck per media.
Flashmemory cant be rewritten unlimited, and if you intend to send 100 copies out by 2008, 2009, 2010 i think one might prefer optical media, because the same capacity would cost $$.$$$ in CF, while $$$ in optical.



Solid state memory is the future - Blu Ray is just the small evolutionary step. HD-DVD may still have its last laugh after all...

HD-DVD has ended, the group dissolved, toshiba is ending all activities.
Solid state is one of the future medias which can follow harddisk and optical, but dont expect that within the next decade.



Video on demand and video for download are future-proof technologies and do not required "fixed" storage format. Just see what is happening around the world already...
In the long run, central servers and media streams will certainly be an interesting option. But today and for many years to come, terrabytes will be harddisk, and 50 GB standard blu-rays (and 9GB DVDs at <1$ each) will stay as common as digital beta and hdcam tapes.

laguun
04-27-2008, 04:47 PM
I dont see red ray as direct competition to blu-ray or dvd or DCI servers. Its offering new posibilities, but will not nearly be as common as dvd or blu-ray - both formats sell millions of players, both format drives cost $$, not $$$.



Red Ray beats Blu Ray four ways:
1. Rugged, portable, production ready form factor (I've not seen a Blu-Ray player yet that could drive a nail).

A blu-ray drive is as small as any dvd drive, fits in 1/4 height notebook 5.25 slots or regular standard height 5.25 drive bays.



2. 1080p pipes out (just like Blu-Ray) PLUS 4K! (Blu-Ray wishes it could fill the screen in your average cineplex) and 5.1.(Beyond HD imagery looks better when it sounds great)

blu-ray features
14 channels of discreet audio with Dolby True HD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_TrueHD
and 7.1 with DTS HD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS_HD
Having 4K playback is awesome, but the usual cineplex is equipped in >98% of the cases with a 1080p/2K projection. 4K still is rare (landmark has some).



3. You get all the above via the DVD burner you already own. No need for specialized codecs, Blu-Ray disc burners or complex authoring schemes.

blu-ray doesnt need specialised codecs or complex authoring. You can use MPEG2 and only files if you want to. If you prefer H264 or VC1, you should get a $$-$$$ software (as Adobe encore or cyberlink).



4. Optical drives have skip protection and less fragile moving parts than a hard drive. I'm sure the optical drive on the Red Ray will accept a blu-ray disc, why not? I'm sure Ken Burns would like to screen his next marathon-documentary in 4K without swapping discs.
Yeah. thats my main point - i dont care about blu-ray (or DVD) playback, its the possible higer datarate (and quality) and the higher capacity which i think would fit red ray better. I dont see any competition between all these formats, they all are for different applications. Redray would benefit from blu-ray as media, and hey, the bluray players are all backward compatible - and the price difference is only some dozens of dollars.

Peter Majtan
04-28-2008, 03:55 AM
Sorry, bu that is complete nonsense.
a) DVD and CD have been designed by Sony and Phillips, and you dont need a license to sell it.
b) The same is valid for blu-ray. And as with DVD and CD, there is an Association behind it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc_Association

According to Your link:

"The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) is the industry consortium that develops and licenses Blu-ray Disc technology"

RED is neither in the "Board of Directors", nor the "Contributors", nor the "Members" group. SONY is major decision maker about who "gets in" whether You like it or not, or whether it is "fair" or not...

And as I've said - given the current relationship between the two - Jim will most likely stay away from Blu-Ray just to make a point...



Tape is the #1 media still for TV.
25 GB are at 7 bucks now on bluray, and will probably go down to less than 1 buck per media. Flashmemory cant be rewritten unlimited, and if you intend to send 100 copies out by 2008, 2009, 2010 i think one might prefer optical media, because the same capacity would cost $$.$$$ in CF, while $$$ in optical.

Show me "affordable" uncompressed or "raw" tape recording media...
For multiple copies one would use digital transfer rather then shipping physical media - as it is already the case with Digital Cinemas...

Main issue I have with optical is the scratch-non-resistance. More so with higher density optical media such as Blu-Ray. When was the last time You have scratched solid state memory???


HD-DVD has ended, the group dissolved, toshiba is ending all activities. Solid state is one of the future medias which can follow harddisk and optical, but dont expect that within the next decade.

I have never said otherwise - what I was referring to was the fact that Blu-Ray has just celebrated their "win" over HD-DVD, but that doesn't mean that they have won the "war". I can see Blu-Ray dying out fairly soon to "portable digital formats" not linked to physical media creating loses far exceeding that of Toshiba... Time will tell... (but certainly not decades...!)


In the long run, central servers and media streams will certainly be an interesting option. But today and for many years to come, terrabytes will be harddisk, and 50 GB standard blu-rays (and 9GB DVDs at <1$ each) will stay as common as digital beta and hdcam tapes.

Not for digital cinema industry - which by the way is what this forum is all about... HDD and solid state memory is way forward. Forget optical... (with the exception of consumer distribution - but even that for how long? Not much I believe)

I guess we have different opinions and vision of the near future. I am not saying that You are wrong - I just believe something different. Time will tell...

Peter Majtan
04-28-2008, 03:59 AM
Sorry, bu that is complete nonsense.
a) DVD and CD have been designed by Sony and Phillips, and you dont need a license to sell it.

One NEEDS LICENSE to manufacture & sell, whether it is CD, DVD, or BLU-RAY (unless You are in India or China and don't give a crap about patents and related issues and can get away with it...). Which planet do You live on?

laguun
04-28-2008, 05:16 AM
One NEEDS LICENSE to manufacture & sell, whether it is CD, DVD, or BLU-RAY (unless You are in India or China and don't give a crap about patents and related issues and can get away with it...).

Any OEM business can buy and resell CD, DVD and bluray drives without any license. You buy the drive for 70 and resell for 80. There is nothing more.

Red certainly doesnt plan to manufacture drives, be it DVD or blu-ray. For this one would need a license.



Which planet do You live on?
Earth, 2008. Where are you from?

Peter Majtan
04-28-2008, 08:56 AM
Its good to know there are other Earths like ours out there :biggrin:

Peter Majtan
04-28-2008, 09:00 AM
Mind You Laguun - RED is not going to buy LG's DVD drives, plaster them all over with aluminum or grey plastic with big red logo and sell them as RED-RAY. If they will end up using red-laser DVD technology with proprietary red-code-raw codec support - they will end up manufacturing them (or get them manufactured for them) and hence they will need to license the technology. Ditto for Blu-Ray. That's how it works on our Earth... :innocent:

laguun
04-28-2008, 06:08 PM
Mind You Laguun - RED is not going to buy LG's DVD drives, plaster them all over with aluminum or grey plastic with big red logo and sell them as RED-RAY. If they will end up using red-laser DVD technology with proprietary red-code-raw codec support - they will end up manufacturing them (or get them manufactured for them) and hence they will need to license the technology. Ditto for Blu-Ray. That's how it works on our Earth... :innocent:

red will buy standard oem-drives, as anyone else. Red will buy LGs (or anyone elses) DVD or blu-ray drives.

Red will not manufacture dvd or blu-ray drives, they wont own the plant, and they wont be manufacturing neither red or blue diodes for lasers.

a codec (which is the real trick) has nothing to do with the hardware.
Speaking of NAB-announcements and gambling:
i would like to bet >5.000 on €/$ on this. Do you take the bet?

Peter Majtan
04-28-2008, 09:23 PM
If what You are saying Laguun that RED is going to buy standard OEM drive (without any modification) - something You or I can buy ourselves - and then re-sell it as branded RED-REY...

...and what I am saying is that RED will either manufacture the drives themselves (from pre-made components, but not the whole OEM drive), or will get it CUSTOM made (just like RED ONE in Singapore) with specialized processing boards and chips designed to handle Red-Code-Raw through HW/SW inside the drive itself and then sell it as RED-RAY to customers - i.e. NON-STANDARD-OEM drive and as results no other manufacturer will be able to buy the same custom made drive without the permission & licensing from RED...

Then I AM a game and I am willing to bet a brand new Scarlet after it comes out...

Do we have a deal?

Bing Bailey
04-29-2008, 12:48 PM
the problem with blu ray is the mastering costs. yes you create a copy on a blu ray burner and thats great. but as soon as you want to go to a replicator the cash register starts making that noise. even without AACS getting an optical master created costs a small fortune right now unlike dvd which costs next to nothing to get the mastering done. 500 dvd's with 4 colour artwork and case only costs about $1000. if you wanted 500 blu rays right now you're looking at 30 to 40 grand. not so much because the individual replication costs a lot but because the optical master costs a lot.

Peter Majtan
04-30-2008, 05:42 AM
Do we have a deal Laggun?

Häakon
06-02-2008, 02:02 AM
I agree with you, laguun... I don't see the logic behind using DVD as the medium. If they've managed, via some compression wizardry, to get 2 hours of 4K to look great at the small file size of a DVD, then it just means having a disc with 5x the space would allow for even less compression, more content, or both. It sounds like the codec will be killer, but I think by the time it comes out and blank BD-R discs are much less expensive, it will seem like an odd choice.

Bruce Allen
06-02-2008, 03:30 AM
Laguun, you should take Peter up on that Scarlet bet.

I'm sure they'll use OEM drives. They'll hook up the IDE / SATA connection from those OEM drives to a controller card (probably also OEM). Custom decompression logic will be further down the chain.

Oh and personally I don't see the point of the DVD drive myself. I'd go Blu-Ray or else I don't see the point of optical.

I also think a well-encoded 50gb Blu-Ray video at 1080p with lossless high-res audio etc will look and sound better than a 4.7gb DVD (okay more if it's dual-layer...) with a RedCode video file at 4K, unless all you're showing is black and white 4K resolution charts.

So yes, you can guess I'm not too keen on the Ray part of Red-Ray. Everything else sounds promising on multiple levels but if I were Red I wouldn't waste my time with the bulky optical drive. If they chucked it and gave you something else cool, like an ethernet port, or built-in storage, or two hard drive ports and the ability to dub / backup stuff (think automated in-field CF / drive backup etc), it'd be much cooler IMHO. This just seems like they're wasting their time trying to take a weird swipe at Sony. I think they should pick their battles... just my 2c.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Peter Majtan
06-02-2008, 09:39 AM
Bruce - I am still up for the bet if Laguun is prepared to back his side...

Martin Weiss
06-02-2008, 12:42 PM
We'd also need a judge/referee that would decide who'd have to buy the Scarlet.

Häakon
06-03-2008, 11:50 PM
I also think a well-encoded 50gb Blu-Ray video at 1080p with lossless high-res audio etc will look and sound better than a 4.7gb DVD (okay more if it's dual-layer...) with a RedCode video file at 4K, unless all you're showing is black and white 4K resolution charts.
Well, we haven't seen this new variant of redcode yet that's going to squish our videos down in size in the best manner possible. Keep in mind that MPEG-2 is over 15 years old and even H.264 is five years old. Those are the only two "legal" codecs you can use to burn a Blu-ray-player compliant disc. I don't doubt that what Deanan and Graeme and the others have cooking is a more efficient, better quality codec that will scale beautifully and allow us some great looking video at reasonable file sizes. All I'm saying is that 50GB is better than 9GB, no matter what codec you use. :-)

laguun
06-04-2008, 03:08 AM
Do we have a deal Laggun?

red will use oem/omd drives. as in the redraid - standard sata disks.
a packaging of such standard devices, interface rewiring or bios flash to avoid 3hrd party use doesnt qualify as an own product.

In the 90s, several exchanged signal and power on the standard SCSI interface to build "propietary" hardware.

This is all possible.

However, DVD-drives or bluray drives or harddisk drives wont be "manufactured" by red. That is the whole idea of ODM/OEM. An Apple Computer today also isnt built by Apple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Design_Manufacturer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_equipment_manufacturer

RED is, for good reason, OEM/ODM.

laguun
06-04-2008, 03:15 AM
Laguun, you should take Peter up on that Scarlet bet.

I sure should. However we need, as gentlemen, precise terms and a referee :)



I'm sure they'll use OEM drives. They'll hook up the IDE / SATA connection from those OEM drives to a controller card (probably also OEM). Custom decompression logic will be further down the chain.

>99% probability.


Oh and personally I don't see the point of the DVD drive myself. I'd go Blu-Ray or else I don't see the point of optical.




I also think a well-encoded 50gb Blu-Ray video at 1080p with lossless high-res audio etc will look and sound better than a 4.7gb DVD (okay more if it's dual-layer...) with a RedCode video file at 4K, unless all you're showing is black and white 4K resolution charts.

So yes, you can guess I'm not too keen on the Ray part of Red-Ray. Everything else sounds promising on multiple levels but if I were Red I wouldn't waste my time with the bulky optical drive. If they chucked it and gave you something else cool, like an ethernet port, or built-in storage, or two hard drive ports and the ability to dub / backup stuff (think automated in-field CF / drive backup etc), it'd be much cooler IMHO. This just seems like they're wasting their time trying to take a weird swipe at Sony. I think they should pick their battles... just my 2c.


blu-ray would make much more sense than DVD.
- higher speed & bandwith for even better quality
- higher capacity (up to 50GB)+
- price difference with oem/omd drives will be $$

Sony with all it flaws is a great and technological outstanding company, and they are -the- pioneers of digital cinema since 1999. I share the critical POV of many regarding their pricing, distribution, crippled products etc - however there is a reason red is using their 4K cinealta projector - its simply one of the best projectors available in this part of the universe. If one doesnt want blu-ray as sony co-developped it, one should also stop using CD or DVD.

Peter Majtan
06-04-2008, 09:48 AM
According to this logic every product on the market is OEM/ODM as they all include some components from other companies... Apple's products are Apple's products, no matter who makes them. According to You anyone could by the iPhone directly from the Taiwanese manufacturer and get them in blue color, mark them xPhone and sell them under their own brand. Apple lawyers will have a field day out of them...

"a packaging of such standard devices, interface rewiring or bios flash to avoid 3hrd party use doesnt qualify as an own product."

A) This is what makes it Your own product
B) The required processing boards with BIOS, etc... will not be there to "avoid 3hrd party use", but to allow native playback of r3d files from the CF cards and the optical media...

But that was not the point of the argument. I have clearly said:

"If what You are saying Laguun that RED is going to buy standard OEM drive (without any modification) - something You or I can buy ourselves - and then re-sell it as branded RED-REY..."

(Which implies that there will be external SW-only drivers to allow the red-code playback)

"...and what I am saying is that RED will either manufacture the drives themselves (from pre-made components, but not the whole OEM drive), or will get it CUSTOM made (just like RED ONE in Singapore) with specialized processing boards and chips designed to handle Red-Code-Raw through HW/SW inside the drive itself and then sell it as RED-RAY to customers - i.e. NON-STANDARD-OEM drive and as results no other manufacturer will be able to buy the same custom made drive without the permission & licensing from RED..."

This is clear statement and there can be no misrepresentation of it. Any senior RED team member could stand in as judge (Ideally Big Jon, since he seams to be in charge of Scarlet)...

I am not against Blu-Ray technology. Sure 50GB is better then 9GB. I have never said anything like that. I just doubt that given the current relationship between RED and SONY, SONY will agree to license Blu-Ray to RED. However this relationship have the possibility to improve once SONY realize that their 4K projectors and 4K LCD/PLASMA/OLED TV's and monitors will sell better when more 4K content is generated (thanks to RED)...

Sure it will be great to have 50GB Red-Ray drive handling red-code RAW based on Blu-Ray. I just don't see it happening due to "political" reasons...

laguun
06-04-2008, 04:24 PM
I am not against Blu-Ray technology. Sure 50GB is better then 9GB. I have never said anything like that. I just doubt that given the current relationship between RED and SONY, SONY will agree to license Blu-Ray to RED.

I think you are not understanding how the economy works.
red can buy any blu-ray drive without any license from any reseller or manufacturer. OEM/ODM.

red would need a license if they would plan to manufacture drives. this is business not in reds scale.

remember. red ~30 employees. sony >150.000.

a chip plant, as for the cell chips: ~ 2-4.000.000.000 billion dollars. reds total revenue ~150.000.000.

Steven Caesare
06-05-2008, 07:16 AM
Well, we haven't seen this new variant of redcode yet that's going to squish our videos down in size in the best manner possible. Keep in mind that MPEG-2 is over 15 years old and even H.264 is five years old. Those are the only two "legal" codecs you can use to burn a Blu-ray-player compliant disc. I don't doubt that what Deanan and Graeme and the others have cooking is a more efficient, better quality codec that will scale beautifully and allow us some great looking video at reasonable file sizes. All I'm saying is that 50GB is better than 9GB, no matter what codec you use. :-)

Close. ;-)

You can also author Blu Ray discs with VC-1.

Häakon
06-05-2008, 04:49 PM
You can also author Blu Ray discs with VC-1.
You are correct, please forgive me. :)

Peter Majtan
06-05-2008, 04:55 PM
Laguun, of course RED is not going to build a factory to make the drives. Even Apple, who is "slightly" larger then RED, get their stuff made by factories in the far East. That doesn't make Apple's products OEM. It would imply that anyone else could by Apple's product directly from the Asian factory and sell them under their own mark. Same way (like Apple) RED designs their product by themselves up to the final production prototype and then contract another factory in Asia to make it for them. I do understand how the economy works, You don't need to be rocket scientist...

The point where we disagree is that You are implying that thy will just buy any OEM drive, put a custom case on it and sell it as RED-RAY drive. I'm saying that they will design their own drive (maybe based around Blu-Ray optical unit), but with custom processing boards that will allow HW playback of redcode-raw, sandwich-in other custom and 3-rd party HW components (such as the CF card reader), fit it into custom case and sell it as RED-RAY. If I am correct - no other party could by the same custom unit and sell it under their brand. If You are correct - anyone else could by the OEM unit from the actual manufacturer (not RED) and sell it under their brand.

No way - no how...

I'm still up for the bet if You are...

Bruce Allen
06-05-2008, 06:21 PM
Ah, gotcha... Peter, you have actually been saying the same thing as Laguun. I think there is semantic confusion here.

Laguun said it would use OEM components (eg drive). He did not say the whole thing would be an OEM unit.

I think you are saying exactly the same thing?

If the RED-RAY optical drive breaks, you could probably open up the case and connect a different (OEM) drive up to the circuit board, just as with a laptop. Right, or not right?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Peter Majtan
06-08-2008, 09:23 PM
Almost. The drives in the laptops are self-contained units (OEM) that connect via standard computer interface (such IDE/ATA, etc...). Optical drive units for media players are little different. Sure RED is going to buy some 3rd party optical unit and get the manufacturer to modify it (certainly the data/signal processing board) based on their own (RED's) designs. There is no current optical drive that could handle 4K output - which alone brings me to the conclusion that the Red-Ray is going to be custom made based on RED's prototype. Definitely not something You can buy OEM off the shelf...

Peter Majtan
06-28-2008, 10:37 AM
I have done some research and it appears that Red-Ray is using standard DVD recording mechanism (red laser). It is not a Blu-Ray device. At least for now this is what Ted is clarifying around the world...

Stephen Gentle
06-29-2008, 01:53 AM
If what You are saying Laguun that RED is going to buy standard OEM drive (without any modification) - something You or I can buy ourselves - and then re-sell it as branded RED-REY...

...and what I am saying is that RED will either manufacture the drives themselves (from pre-made components, but not the whole OEM drive), or will get it CUSTOM made (just like RED ONE in Singapore) with specialized processing boards and chips designed to handle Red-Code-Raw through HW/SW inside the drive itself and then sell it as RED-RAY to customers - i.e. NON-STANDARD-OEM drive and as results no other manufacturer will be able to buy the same custom made drive without the permission & licensing from RED..

The actual drive mechanism will probably be OEM - it could just be a slot loading laptop drive or a drive with a modified tray to look the part... But I doubt they would actually bother making their own...

If they got OEM drives, they would not need to be modified - they would plug in to RED's boards with the decoder chips and so on just as they plug into your computer's motherboard.

EDIT: On further inspection, it seems that everything I said above was kind of already said by Bruce...


Almost. The drives in the laptops are self-contained units (OEM) that connect via standard computer interface (such IDE/ATA, etc...). Optical drive units for media players are little different. Sure RED is going to buy some 3rd party optical unit and get the manufacturer to modify it (certainly the data/signal processing board) based on their own (RED's) designs. There is no current optical drive that could handle 4K output - which alone brings me to the conclusion that the Red-Ray is going to be custom made based on RED's prototype. Definitely not something You can buy OEM off the shelf...

It doesn't have to be different though - I could make a DVD player that had a mpeg2 decoder, dsp, and a sata or ata controller etc. so it could read off a standard data DVD drive.... Then the optical drive does not need to handle 480i or 720p or 4K output - just move data that I can feed through my DSP/decoder.

laguun
06-29-2008, 04:34 AM
no matter if red will use blu-ray or dvd oem drives, the data will be probably fed by p/s-ata from a standard drive to the ASICs/FPGAs residing on another board.

The main misunderstanding Peter has is that you dont need any licenses etc to resell oem dvd or blu-ray drives with own branding.

The main topic here was basically hijacked, and that is that IMHO 4.7 GB or 9.4 GB is *very* little storgae, and the slightly higher price (~$$-150$) for an 25/50GB blu-ray drive would be an excellent addition.

Peter Majtan
06-30-2008, 05:31 AM
My bad Laguun - would You be so kind and point to me ANY optical drive based on the Blu-Ray technology that DOES NOT carry the Blu-Ray logo/branding? OR for that matter any CD/DVD drive that does not carry the CD/DVD logo/brandind? Or relevant optical media for the respective systems that DO NOT carry the respective logo/branding? It is all bout licensing and politics. Every industry is and ours is not immune. I also believe RED want's to keep the system affordable. The good news is the SONY is slowly warming up to RED with their SXRD projectors and vice-versa (unless RED is cooking up their own projector). All manufacturers of 4K display/projection technologies have to be grateful to RED for making it that much easier to generate 4K content, without which there is no point for such a tech. Any other 4K content acquisition formats (besides of scanning 35mm film and CGI)?

laguun
06-30-2008, 07:58 AM
My bad Laguun - would You be so kind and point to me ANY optical drive based on the Blu-Ray technology that DOES NOT carry the Blu-Ray logo/branding?

That is completly irrelevant.
Reselling optical drives as datadrives doesnt require membership in the blu-ray group, compact disc ISO or DVD forum.

A usual computer reseller next door will be able to explain you this en detail.



The good news is the SONY is slowly warming up to RED with their SXRD projectors and vice-versa (unless RED is cooking up their own projector).

Sony was doing 4K years before red even was founded, in fact the first digitally projected 4K i saw was showcased by sony to us (2004? 2005?).

Typical for larger cooperations, different POVs do and did exist in sonys workforce. While the camera, monitor, storage and to-air divisions aim at 2K/1080P mainly, the projection group forces 4K since ~2003 - and meanwhile also the tape recorders are 4K - all under the same cinealta label.

many, if not most, of the japanese developers i spoke to skipped 4K and went directly to 8K. Their system are installed since 2005. The NHK proposes 8K as a broadcast standard, and the cameras, projectors, optics, remotes, recorders etc are working fine since 2005/2006.

In the Americas and the EU however, digital 2K takes >95% of the cinema projector sales so far. I hope that this will change over time, but the quite small 2K/4K difference on typical screens at cinemas is so far sadly not justifying the higher cost for most exhibitors.



All manufacturers of 4K display/projection technologies have to be grateful to RED for making it that much easier to generate 4K content, without which there is no point for such a tech.

I fully agree.



Any other 4K content acquisition formats (besides of scanning 35mm film and CGI)?
Many. i.e. JVC and Hitachi have higher resolution cameras (8k), Dalsa and Vision have 4K Cameras - most of them are recording uncompressed. In fact Dalsa was the 4K digital pioneer for cameras, the 4K Origin was introduced several years before red.

Peter Majtan
06-30-2008, 10:13 AM
That is completly irrelevant.
Reselling optical drives as datadrives doesnt require membership in the blu-ray group, compact disc ISO or DVD forum. A usual computer reseller next door will be able to explain you this en detail.

How on Earth this can be "completly irrelevant"?!? If this is truly Your opinion I don't see any point to further continue this part of the debate...


Sony was doing 4K years before red even was founded, in fact the first digitally projected 4K i saw was showcased by sony to us (2004? 2005?).

RED Digital Cinema (and the ideas behind it) started in 1999, so please get Your facts straight...


Typical for larger cooperations, different POVs do and did exist in sonys workforce. While the camera, monitor, storage and to-air divisions aim at 2K/1080P mainly, the projection group forces 4K since ~2003 - and meanwhile also the tape recorders are 4K - all under the same cinealta label.

many, if not most, of the japanese developers i spoke to skipped 4K and went directly to 8K. Their system are installed since 2005. The NHK proposes 8K as a broadcast standard, and the cameras, projectors, optics, remotes, recorders etc are working fine since 2005/2006.

I have spent the better part of 2004, 2005 and 2006 in Tokyo as the "Head of R&D and Special Projects" for a privately owned EYEdentify Inc. One of my projects involved close relations with both SONY and NHK, way beyond "taking with developers". Due to many NDA's I can't even begin to elaborate on the inaccuracy of Your statement...


In the Americas and the EU however, digital 2K takes >95% of the cinema projector sales so far. I hope that this will change over time, but the quite small 2K/4K difference on typical screens at cinemas is so far sadly not justifying the higher cost for most exhibitors.

So how exactly would the "8K" fit into this picture?


I fully agree.

I'm glad we agree on something...


Many. i.e. JVC and Hitachi have higher resolution cameras (8k), Dalsa and Vision have 4K Cameras - most of them are recording uncompressed. In fact Dalsa was the 4K digital pioneer for cameras, the 4K Origin was introduced several years before red.

OK - let me rephrase:

"Any other REALISTIC 4K content acquisition formats (besides of scanning 35mm film and CGI)?"

Peter Majtan
06-30-2008, 10:14 AM
And before You go off... ...by REALISTIC I mean affordable and accessible for every-day filmmakers...

laguun
06-30-2008, 12:37 PM
RED Digital Cinema (and the ideas behind it) started in 1999, so please get Your facts straight...

red started in public late 2005. the red one was announced april 2006. first prototypes working on the field were early 2007. delivery to customers in larger number started late 2007.
sonys market introduction of the srx 4K was 2004.



One of my projects involved close relations with both SONY and NHK, way beyond "taking with developers". Due to many NDA's I can't even begin to elaborate on the inaccuracy of Your statement...

8K UHDTV is public since 2003 and doesnt need any NDAs.
early press from 2003.
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Ultra-high-resolution-television-UHDV-prototype.html
a shot an assistant of me took in 2006 while the demonstration:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/9/98/Uhdfuji0000.jpg



"Any other REALISTIC 4K content acquisition formats (besides of scanning 35mm film and CGI)?"
And before You go off... ...by REALISTIC I mean affordable and accessible for every-day filmmakers...

dalsa, vision research phantom, jvk, hitachi... there are many.
production cost is mainly in front, around and behind of the camera, not the camera rental itself.
for everyday shooting, 4K has to be in the $$$-$.$$$ range, not in the mid $$.$$$. That will happen not to far from here.

red is excellent and advancing the industry on many fronts - they dont need false and heightened compliments, its excellent what they have acomplished.

now, please lets go back to to the topic: 25/50GB optical media with higher datarates would be better than 4.3/8.7GB with lower datarates for redray, and the difference in price for the optical drive will be $$.

Peter Majtan
06-30-2008, 02:12 PM
The technical comments I would like to make however do fall under NDA. The proposed 8K format was far from "working fine since 2005/2006". But since I can't comment I agree to drop this issue...

I agree that "25/50GB optical media with higher datarates would be better than 4.3/8.7GB with lower datarates", but "the difference in price for the optical drive will be $$" and the actual reality of the deal will greatly depend on the licensing issues, which You seams to be shunning away as "completly irrelevant"...

Peter Majtan
06-30-2008, 02:21 PM
red started in public late 2005. the red one was announced april 2006. first prototypes working on the field were early 2007. delivery to customers in larger number started late 2007.
sonys market introduction of the srx 4K was 2004.

But You have said "Sony was doing 4K years before red even was founded"

The idea and R&D behind RED begun few years before 2005. I have just reacted to the "tone" of Your post trying to make Sony somehow "more" or "better" then what RED has done. I was personally involved in the 4K SXRD R&D, especially the DVI input board and direct-to-computer/GPU interfacing. The engineers in Atsugi did a great job never the less, but comparing it to RED's achievement in the way You did was not entirely "correct"...

laguun
06-30-2008, 03:03 PM
I agree that "25/50GB optical media with higher datarates would be better than 4.3/8.7GB with lower datarates", but "the difference in price for the optical drive will be $$" and the actual reality of the deal will greatly depend on the licensing issues, which You seams to be shunning away as "completly irrelevant"...
Peter,

blu-ray drives, which are at 80€ retail price here in europe meanwhile, can be bought and sold without -any- license.

Peter Majtan
06-30-2008, 03:45 PM
On one-to-one consumer level. Try to buy 10000 of them, modify the boards to support HW Red-Code-RAW, label it Red-Ray and sell them for profit without any Blu-Ray labeling what so ever. Blu-Ray consortium's lawyers would have a field day...

laguun
06-30-2008, 05:00 PM
On one-to-one consumer level. Try to buy 10000 of them, modify the boards to support HW Red-Code-RAW, label it Red-Ray and sell them for profit without any Blu-Ray labeling what so ever. Blu-Ray consortium's lawyers would have a field day...

Peter i have to admit that i am getting bored, as you seem not to want, or be able, to understand what many people here try to explain to you.
Buying and reselling consumer electronic goods as cd, dvd or bluray drives doesn require *any* contracts. The market is *completly* free. No difference if CD, DVD, blu-ray. *Any* reseller knows that, and deals according to this day by day in *any* part of the consumer electronics, computer & IT resale and manufacturing.

red buys compact/flash cards. resells them.
red isnt part of the c/f group.
the electronics are outside of the storage, in the camera.outside of the c/f card.
the c/f cards are connected by sata.
no license needed. not for 10.000 units.

red buys harddisk. resells them.
red doesnt manufacture hardisks.
the electronics of red are outside of the storage, in the camera and case.
the harddisk are connected by sata.
no license needed. not for 10.000 units.

red buys optical drive. resells them.
red doesnt manufacture optical drives, nor is red member of the bluray or dvd-group.
the electronics of red are outside of the storage, in the case.
the optical drive is connected by sata.
no license needed. not for 10.000 units.

If you want to keep on posting wild and dark conspiracy fantasies regarding red being sued by the dvd-interest group (which sony is leading part of...) or the blu-ray group, go ahead - its non-sense nevertheless as so many people tried to explain you.

Noah Kadner
06-30-2008, 05:09 PM
On one-to-one consumer level. Try to buy 10000 of them, modify the boards to support HW Red-Code-RAW, label it Red-Ray and sell them for profit without any Blu-Ray labeling what so ever. Blu-Ray consortium's lawyers would have a field day...

I'm not so sure. I doubt having a Blu-Ray label on the side of a RED Box is that big a deal. And the consortium probably hasn't got a beef if hardware is moving. We certainly know a lot of REDs gear is either in house mods or developed by 3rd parties who remain nameless- i.e. the CF cards. I'm sure whatever legal realities exist would be outweighed by the potential sales- should they choose to go that way.

Not that it's totally necessary to go to Blu-Ray. Personally I think flash or something like it is a more sensible option as removable media with room to grow. Just seems like limiting the media to DVD capacity is going to make this product go obsolete rather quickly, especially as it's already potentially up to a year off from hitting the market.

Noah

laguun
06-30-2008, 05:38 PM
Personally I think flash or something like it is a more sensible option as removable media with room to grow.

true, but cost of optical storage is so much lower than electronic - 6 bucks for 25GB as of now, falling fast.



Just seems like limiting the media to DVD capacity is going to make this product go obsolete rather quickly, especially as it's already potentially up to a year off from hitting the market.

true. The 1995 DVD standard will be low to mid-class in 2008, and with prices as 10-20 for a DVD drive and (even today) already 80 for blu-ray drives, reds high-tech & state of the art approach would be better underlined with modern optical systems instead of elder one.

Also, the burning speed and quality of blu-ray is higher, which increases day by day ergonomics for any user.

Peter Majtan
06-30-2008, 05:44 PM
But RED still calls the CF card a CF card...
Harddisk (or HDD) is not a registered brand or trade mark...
Rest assured that when RED-RAY's labeled discs appears (if they do), they will carry the respective DVD-R (or DVD+R, or what else) logo on them. They may be colored RED and have the buzzsaw logo on it, but if they are based on that technology they will have to respect the licensing rules:

(from http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/index.html)



Q.: Who needs the DVD Format/Logo License?

A.:

1) Replicators of pre-recorded DVD discs / Manufacturers of writable DVD discs

2) Manufacturers of DVD Players, Recorders, Drives, Decoders and PC Recording and Authoring Software.

3) Manufacturers of other DVD Products that utilize the information disclosed in the DVD Format Books. These include IC Chip makers and authoring tools for professional use, etc.

Now RED doesn't need to apply for the DVD license if their drive or media is going to be manufactured by an official DVD licensee. They would have to follow the instruction of the licensee in this regards. They would not be able to "remove" any such a markings (if any) by the original manufacturer and they would certainly not be able to brand it Red-Ray without some sort of agreement in place...

Noah Kadner
06-30-2008, 06:00 PM
I think you're kinda missing the point. RED can call it whatever they want to and if by using Blu-Ray drives as the storage medium they are obligated to place the Blu-Ray logo on the side, who cares ultimately? I'd certainly hate to think that was the only reason to hold back an otherwise good idea with older technology.

Noah

Peter Majtan
06-30-2008, 06:12 PM
This was precisely my original point, that maybe it is this licensing issue, that would ultimately involve some sort of talks between RED and SONY, that is keeping RED from adopting Blu-Ray for its Red-Ray. Or maybe just RED does not see the future of optical medias beyond standard DVD and expect the industry to move to something else (like SS) by the time DVD is outdated...

I am not going to poke into this anymore, but You should just check the amount of law-suits pounded on Apple Inc. almost every week by (mostly) greedy entities... Any of these suits could kill RED, so they could be just staying away from any potential "situations" and playing it safe. If the red-laser DVD technology can handle 4K in reasonable quality, then so be it...

If they work things out with Blu-Ray - so be it as well... I would also like to see the larger and faster format (read = I understand Your point), but I just don't think is that easy as re-labeling 3-rd party products...

laguun
06-30-2008, 06:59 PM
holy cow.

once and for all:
no-one needs a permit, a license or even talks with any member of the dvd or blu-ray group to -resell- optical drives, be it CD, dvd or bluray.

That -cant- be so complicated to understand.

Noah Kadner
06-30-2008, 07:06 PM
This was precisely my original point, that maybe it is this licensing issue, that would ultimately involve some sort of talks between RED and SONY, that is keeping RED from adopting Blu-Ray for its Red-Ray. Or maybe just RED does not see the future of optical medias beyond standard DVD and expect the industry to move to something else (like SS) by the time DVD is outdated...

I am not going to poke into this anymore, but You should just check the amount of law-suits pounded on Apple Inc. almost every week by (mostly) greedy entities... Any of these suits could kill RED, so they could be just staying away from any potential "situations" and playing it safe. If the red-laser DVD technology can handle 4K in reasonable quality, then so be it...

If they work things out with Blu-Ray - so be it as well... I would also like to see the larger and faster format (read = I understand Your point), but I just don't think is that easy as re-labeling 3-rd party products...

I hear what you're saying but I don't really thing it's nearly as big an issue as you make it out to be. RED will release whatever product they want to. And yes, they will get sued left right and center in the coming years just like any other company. That's the cost of doing business in the USA.

Noah

Peter Majtan
06-30-2008, 10:10 PM
Holy what ever... Laguun, You are like a broken gramophone with no audio input. I DO hear what You are saying and I AGREE to that. But this is not the scenario we are talking about. One thing is to just "resale" and another to "buy, use the core, but modify heavily the processing boards, and then resale under Your own brand as a competition to the original format". If You can't see this point, there is nothing more to talk about...

Peace...

laguun
07-01-2008, 04:34 AM
One thing is to just "resale" and another to "buy, use the core, but modify heavily the processing boards, and then resale under Your own brand as a competition to the original format".

Peace...
Peter,
the optical drives wont have modified processing boards.

They just work as a data source. SATA/PATA.

red wont tamper with laserfrequency, readout, crcs, the microlens, servos, linear/stepper motors, pick up assemblies, sata/pata bridge card etc. And thats all what inside a bluray or dvd-drive.

The *decoding* and the D/A are done outside of the drives - not in the drives.

In the case of a dvd/blu-ray-drive these functions are performed by a computer getting its bits and bytes - be it a HP workstation labeled as the manufacturer wants or be it a red product called redray.
I suppose everyone has understood this now.

oldphart
07-29-2008, 08:59 PM
Peter,
the optical drives wont have modified processing boards.

They just work as a data source. SATA/PATA.

red wont tamper with laserfrequency, readout, crcs, the microlens, servos, linear/stepper motors, pick up assemblies, sata/pata bridge card etc. And thats all what inside a bluray or dvd-drive.

...

Why do you think that?
There is nothing in the specification we know about that says it will be compatible with DVDs. The only thing we know is that it will record to standard media. Nobody has said that the recording is going to use anything like the normal DVD format, and there are several ways to record substantially more data with red lasers on standard DVD media. It will require significant modifications compared to a standard drive.