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Owen Rennie
09-17-2014, 05:59 PM
I'm sure I must of missed this bit in the user manual but....

When viewing the Exposure tool, Red is clipping, purple is crushed blacks, and then I have green everywhere. What is the green??

Thanks to Reduser I never shoot without checking exposure tool first now and my images are looking better for it.

Thanks in advance


Owen

Phil Holland
09-17-2014, 06:10 PM
Green represents 18% Grey or Middle Grey for the given gamma curve and color space. With Video Check that lands in the IRE range of 41-48.




Red Dragon - In Camera Exposure Tools
http://artbyphil.com/phfx/red/dragon/images/phfx_redDragon_inCameraExposureTools.jpg (http://artbyphil.com/phfx/red/dragon/images/phfx_redDragon_inCameraExposureTools.jpg)

Owen Rennie
09-17-2014, 07:24 PM
Ok thanks Phil, I haven't done too much reading on IRE values but I will now... So I guess if my exposure tool shows nothing but lots of green I'm doing good yeh?

Owen

Trent Lillehaugen
09-17-2014, 08:12 PM
Don't forget that all the dialogs offer in-camera help. It is the same text found in the user manual. Just tap the "Help" button on the top of the screen when a dialog is open.

The "Display > Tools" dialog help will explain what the colors mean.

Stacey Spears
09-17-2014, 08:19 PM
Red does not include just clipped pixels, it also includes near clipping pixels. Same for purple.

Owen Rennie
09-17-2014, 09:29 PM
Good tip, thanks Trent

Yes thanks Stacey I'm aware of that

Owen

Mikael Lubtchansky
09-17-2014, 11:51 PM
Usually you want some of that green on the skin tones for proper exposure...

Christian Edwards
09-18-2014, 01:40 AM
Hey why is that 18% grey is a good exposure for skin tone ?

Mark L. Pederson
09-18-2014, 01:56 AM
Hey why is that 18% grey is a good exposure for skin tone ?

http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=3551583675371023276

"Furthermore the published standards for correct reflectance values of middle grey (ANSI PH3.49-1971) actually put it at 12%-13%, which is about 1/2 stop under 18%. And it seems that most meter and camera manufacturers agree with this standard, as many of the reflected meters will determine middle tone as a 12%-13% middle grey value. Yep, companies like Sekonic and Canon, among others put middle tone at 12%-13%, not 18%."

Phil Holland
09-18-2014, 02:00 AM
Usually you want some of that green on the skin tones for proper exposure...


Hey why is that 18% grey is a good exposure for skin tone ?

Lot's of different methods I've seen over the years in relationship to where 18% Grey lands and where a desired skin tone is exposed.

Typically for Caucasian land you'll illuminate pink. However, when lighting to light meter and grabbing a desired look you may want the skintones entirely in 18% Grey. Some prefer to have the illuminated surface of the face from the key light fill up entirely Pink. Or a slight variation of transition from say the highlight of the given skin surface in Pink that transitions to 18% Grey. For High Key work you may not want any Green on a lighter skin surface. For Low Key work you may not want anything above Green for a skin surface. Just depends.

It's a matter of preference and style. I've seen pretty much everything when it comes to IRE and where skin lands. There are certainly standard methods of exposing via meter and this provides a very expected result that you can make creative and technical decisions based on 18% Grey as your reference point. Which has been standard working procedure for a long, long time.

Mikael Lubtchansky
09-18-2014, 02:33 AM
Hey why is that 18% grey is a good exposure for skin tone ?

Phil + Mark are right and more accurate than me....green / 18% should be on *some* of the skin tone highlights like cheekbones but yes pink (in the false color system) is what you should be looking for on caucasian skin in daylight.

Not sure anything was announced officially outside of Jarred's Facebook regarding the upcoming ZONE tool... but it was working on a 'beta' camera in the IBC booth and it looks like it will be a super useful addition to the toolbox.

Phil Holland
09-18-2014, 02:34 AM
Yep. I want that Zone tool pretty badly. Can't wait to dive into it.

David Battistella
09-18-2014, 04:25 AM
Viva Ansel!

bring on the zone tool!


Battistella

Todd Gilpin
10-01-2014, 12:18 PM
i know the manual says that the 'Exposure Tool" is based on RAW data and Look settings do not affect the Exposure indicators, and as Phil says, Color Space and Gamma information do not affect the exposure indicators, but if I do not see this on my Scarlet. With the Exposure tool on, I can toggle RAW view on and off and the amount of purple will change. Likewise, with the exposure tool on I can switch between Redlogfilm, RedGamma4, RedGamma3, RedGamma2......and the amount of purple will change. Redlogfilm of course is the saw as RAW view. I'm just wondering what I'm missing here. As a practice I am in the habit of switching to RAW view to use the exposure tool, I am just wondering what I'm missing here.

Phil Holland
10-01-2014, 03:02 PM
i know the manual says that the 'Exposure Tool" is based on RAW data and Look settings do not affect the Exposure indicators, and as Phil says, Color Space and Gamma information do not affect the exposure indicators, but if I do not see this on my Scarlet. With the Exposure tool on, I can toggle RAW view on and off and the amount of purple will change. Likewise, with the exposure tool on I can switch between Redlogfilm, RedGamma4, RedGamma3, RedGamma2......and the amount of purple will change. Redlogfilm of course is the saw as RAW view. I'm just wondering what I'm missing here. As a practice I am in the habit of switching to RAW view to use the exposure tool, I am just wondering what I'm missing here.

You're doing the right thing. RAW view and the Exposure Check will reveal exactly where potential problem areas are. Where Red and Purple are should be areas that you intend to clip or crush, if not, a different lighting scheme or exposure should likely be explored.

For general exposure when in one of the Video Gammas (more or less are there to produce a normal looking image/rec.709) Video Check "tells" you where more values land so you can carve it out the way you want. The same could be said if you are using a custom Look with a different curve or whatever.

The Exposure Tool is based on the RAW data, but can also be effected by the "look". Heh. I may to look at the manual again, but that's certainly what it's doing.

Todd Gilpin
10-01-2014, 03:12 PM
The manual clearly states that "Look" settings have no affect on exposure indicators in the Exposure tool. I have always thought I was just crazy.....so maybe I not completely crazy... Ha

Uros Zuraj
10-01-2014, 03:53 PM
Phill where can we get all of this "pdfs" youve made from exposure to framerates, sensor size,...?

Phil Holland
10-01-2014, 03:55 PM
Phill where can we get all of this "pdfs" youve made from exposure to framerates, sensor size,...?

Soon my friend. Making a few very important pages for it this week.

Enrique Blein
10-01-2014, 05:09 PM
Ansel Adamas places Caucasian skin tone in Zone 6 which is one stop lighter than Zone 5 or Middle Grey (18%)

Phil Holland
10-01-2014, 05:19 PM
Ansel Adamas places Caucasian skin tone in Zone 6 which is one stop lighter than Zone 5 or Middle Grey (18%)

Which is why there is a pink zone in Video Check for exactly that.

stewart addison
10-04-2014, 12:36 PM
Soon my friend. Making a few very important pages for it this week.

They are great, keep up the good work!

Jake Wilganowski
10-04-2014, 02:21 PM
You're doing the right thing. RAW view and the Exposure Check will reveal exactly where potential problem areas are. Where Red and Purple are should be areas that you intend to clip or crush, if not, a different lighting scheme or exposure should likely be explored.

For general exposure when in one of the Video Gammas (more or less are there to produce a normal looking image/rec.709) Video Check "tells" you where more values land so you can carve it out the way you want. The same could be said if you are using a custom Look with a different curve or whatever.

The Exposure Tool is based on the RAW data, but can also be effected by the "look". Heh. I may to look at the manual again, but that's certainly what it's doing.

Yes I feel like the exposure tool used to be just based on raw and didn't change with iso but that is not the case now and i definitely prefer the old way.

Uros Zuraj
10-04-2014, 04:40 PM
Soon my friend. Making a few very important pages for it this week.

cant wait!!! if you ask me they should come with the camera even if it means extra costs. its like "Windows for dummies" books back in the days :D

Medavoym
10-06-2014, 03:18 PM
I can confirm that the Exposure Tool is not based on the RAW anymore.

Not like it says in the manual.

If you change ISOs, it has a huge effect on what the Exposure Tool is showing.

Is it broken again?

Phil Holland
10-06-2014, 03:25 PM
I can confirm that the Exposure Tool is not based on the RAW anymore.

Not like it says in the manual.

If you change ISOs, it has a huge effect on what the Exposure Tool is showing.

Is it broken again?

Exposure Tool in combination with RAW View is doing exactly what you want it to do.

There's been some revisions obviously to a lot of this. I think Red just needs to update the manual.

Jake Wilganowski
10-06-2014, 04:20 PM
Exposure Tool in combination with RAW View is doing exactly what you want it to do.

There's been some revisions obviously to a lot of this. I think Red just needs to update the manual.

Yes, but it is better to hit 1 button to see raw with exposure. Is it possible to map this to 1 button?

Medavoym
10-06-2014, 05:42 PM
I think Red just needs to update the manual.


Hi Phil,

It looks like you need to update your pdfs as well :-)

Don't you think it would be better to base the Exposure Tool on the Raw, btw?
As it's written in the manual and as the tool was originally designed to function.

Frank Hague
10-07-2014, 12:43 AM
The newest firmware update has my screen turning green in the near clipping highlights (especially practicals in teh shot or any actual source) even when I don't do exposure check. Has anyone else noticed this? We had a multi camera shoot last week and it was the same on both cameras.

Does anyone know how to turn it off? Really strange that they'd make this a default setting.

Phil Holland
10-07-2014, 12:53 AM
Hi Phil,

It looks like you need to update your pdfs as well :-)

Don't you think it would be better to base the Exposure Tool on the Raw, btw?
As it's written in the manual and as the tool was originally designed to function.

In my notes I express that Raw View and the Exposure Tool work well together. Outside of this I'm citing what is written.

Essentially my notes will always be tailored towards more or less my own thoughts on best uses and practices.

All I can do is point you towards what you want. In this case Raw View + Exposure Tool.



The newest firmware update has my screen turning green in the near clipping highlights (especially practicals in teh shot or any actual source) even when I don't do exposure check. Has anyone else noticed this? We had a multi camera shoot last week and it was the same on both cameras.

Does anyone know how to turn it off? Really strange that they'd make this a default setting.

That sounds freaky weird. I'd love to see an .R3D or a even cell phone photo showing what you are describing. Sounds very odd.

Elsie N
10-07-2014, 04:23 AM
pinned for reference.

Medavoym
10-07-2014, 06:20 AM
In my notes I express that Raw View and the Exposure Tool work well together. Outside of this I'm citing what is written.

Essentially my notes will always be tailored towards more or less my own thoughts on best uses and practices.

All I can do is point you towards what you want. In this case Raw View + Exposure Tool.



Your pdfs are MUCH appreciated Phil!

Just pointing out the current discrepancy in your description, probably because the exposure tool seems to be changing behavior from build to build.
Which is not ideal.

Not your fault.

The exposure tool was conceived to be significantly different than the video check. Otherwise, what's the point?

There have been a number of threads and everyone agrees. The Exposure Tool should be tied to the RAW mode and truly show what is noise and what is clipped at the sensor level. Independent from any ISO, gammas, etc applied in the metadata. And without going in the RAW mode first.

I think it has been discussed at length already? And it seemed to have been fixed at some point, after it was broke? It seems to be broken again at the moment.

Mikael Lubtchansky
10-07-2014, 07:06 AM
pinned for reference.

FWIW -> go to the top of the page and under 'thread tools' you can "subscribe to this thread..."
(thru you control panel only if you do not want to get email alerts)...

the thread will show with the green dot meaning you are subscribed and it will show in your subscribed threads :-)

Elsie N
10-07-2014, 03:40 PM
FWIW -> go to the top of the page and under 'thread tools' you can "subscribe to this thread..."
(thru you control panel only if you do not want to get email alerts)...

the thread will show with the green dot meaning you are subscribed and it will show in your subscribed threads :-)Thanks Mikael, I'll check that out.

Jake Wilganowski
10-07-2014, 04:00 PM
Yes what's the point if it's not tied to raw view. C'mon red, fix it!

Russ Campbell
10-07-2014, 09:26 PM
The newest firmware update has my screen turning green in the near clipping highlights (especially practicals in teh shot or any actual source) even when I don't do exposure check. Has anyone else noticed this? We had a multi camera shoot last week and it was the same on both cameras.

Does anyone know how to turn it off? Really strange that they'd make this a default setting.
I'm getting this as well. If I go into RAW view mode and back to normal view, it goes away. The colour is more like teal on my camera. I haven't checked whether this is the same on my other Dragon.

Frank Hague
10-12-2014, 07:55 PM
I'm getting this as well. If I go into RAW view mode and back to normal view, it goes away. The colour is more like teal on my camera. I haven't checked whether this is the same on my other Dragon.

Yeah, that's my work around as well: just go into Raw mode and back. Though recently I haven't been seeing it pop up that much, so strange.